Post by Anthony MarshPost by Steve BarberPost by Anthony MarshPost by Steve BarberPost by clavigerThis photo answers once and for all where the head wound was located.
The 30 closest witnesses were right.
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=3&pos=0
I have to disagree. These colorized photos don't prove anything one way
or the other, and this is really a distorted view of the head wound--and
head of President Kennedy. Too much skull missing that doesn't jibe with
the autopsy photos, not to mention that the area above the left temple
looks like it is detached from his head.
Why don't you show everyone your drawing of what you claim is a super
secret autopsy photo that Groden has which has never been published?
Why don't you go suck an egg?
Subject: The History of the missing right lateral autopsy photo and
Robert Groden...
Date: 16 Jul 99 19:11:34 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk
In the summer of 1980, my friend Barry Plesce of Hazelton PA and I had
decided to sort of try and have a little meeting with some researchers
from the eastern portion of the states. Dick Sprague and Robert Groden
couldn't make it, but Bob Cutler ,Edgar Tatro, Rich Ducar, Tom Dunshee and
about three others attended.
We spent the day in Hazelton in a decent sized pantry in a motel.
Nothing was accomplished, other than Cutler entertained us all with his
sense of humor.
The next day,which was Sunday, we were going to go to Robert Groden's in
Hopelawn, NJ, and the following Wednesday to Dick Sprague's in Hartsdale
NY.
We left around 11a.m. for Robert. Included was Barry Plesce's wife Jeanie
and their daughter Barbara. Barry was providing the transportation, which
as I recall was a 1977 powder blue Plymouth ( a great big car).
We arrived approximately an hour later at Groden's (after having gotten
lost in his neighborhood). We were waiting on another person who attended
the meeting in Hazelton, Rich Ducar of Trenton N.J. to arrive. He would
arrive about half an hour after we did.
Robert lived between two cemeteries, and resided in a little brick home.
Very small. When we walked in the door, he had central air conditioning
turned on and it was hot that day and offered us refreshments. The
firstthing I saw when I entered his home were tons of empty metal, large
sized movie reels which hold movie film stashed in a sort of closet
without a door. Then, we entered his living room. The television was to
your immediate right, on which he had a good sized video cassette player
(they weren't even available then as "vcr's"). He had a fairly nice
stereo system set up near the tv.
He wanted to show us his record collection, and asked us to name anything
we would like to hear, so each of us did. I named a tune by Emerson, Lake
and Palmer, but he didnt have it, so I settled for a 60's hit by "The
Seeds"called "Pushin' too hard", which he had. Barry was into the
Beatles,as was Robert, so, Robert showed us some rare Beatles records.
HE even made aspecial tape of the tune "I am the Walrus", where he added a
few more notes on the beginning of the tune, where the tune opens up with
the keyboard Lennon was playing, and remarked how it " just doesn't sound
right" w/ only four notes-he wanted it to have 16.
We eventually started talking about the JFK case. Robert then broke out
his video taped interviews of some of the Doctors at Parkland Hospital.
It was all in black and white. This was all news footage, probably
ABC/WFAA stuff.
I should point out that Roberts' wife and kids were at the beach, and
Barry's wife and 4 year old daughter came along hopefully to meet his
wife,because Jeanie had NO interest in the JFK case at all.
Eventually, Robert asked each of us how we felt about the autopsy photos,
meaning did we think they were authentic. I had not formed an opnion, but
had known that there were rumors going round that they had been tampered
with. After he asked each of us, he asked if we would like to see them.
Of course we would. He then walked over to a metal shelving holding
small size movie reels, and pulled out a manila envelope, large size. In
this envelope were at least 4 black and white glossy 8x10 autopsy photos.
When heshowed them to us, I was absolutely horrified. I had never, until
this time seen as much as a photograph of a dead person in my life. I was
25 years old. In the collection of photos he had 1 of each: A left
lateral, right lateral, top of the head, and rear of the head. The rear
of the head was the same Ida Dox had sketched for the HSCA report. He did
not have anything but different angles of the president's head. He did
not have the "Stare of death photo", nor did he have the photograph taken
of the back which appears in later publications-it was only those which
showed the head.
The first thing I am thinking as I am sitting there, holding the right
lateral photograph in my hands was: "Oswald did do this; This is exactly
what the Zapruder film shows, only close up". I thought this because the
back of the head was intact from all appearances. The head wound was just
what I had seen on the cover of ARGOSY magazine, when Robert had written
an article for the magazine and published extremely clear prints of frame
335. I was really sort of let down. I wanted Oswald to be innocent of
this crime.
EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY", and in it, he had drawn his opinion of the head
wound, from an angle looking down into the presidential limousine from
above-what he calls a "Spatial Chart". Cutler had convinced me somewhat
by his drawings that the head shot came not from the front at all, but
from the TSBD, but from a different window than Oswald was in. When I saw
the drawings in his book, I figured that he had seen the autopsy photos
too. After all, he drew the flap of skull hanging out over the right ear
in precisely the same location itis seen in in the right lateral we are
now seeing. This just more or less supported his findings, or the Warren
Commisions in my opinion. We scrutinized these pictures, Barry, Rich, and
myself. I thought at the time, I would never, ever get to see these
photos again, but as we know, 8 years later, David Lifton would publish
two of what we saw : The left lateral and one of the two "top of the head"
photos.
As we sat there looking at these pictures, I became very upset by what I
was seeing in this right lateral. I knew I would never, ever forget the
look on JFK's face. The way in which his upper teeth protruded out over
his lower lip, and that expression on his mouth, and his eyes open. The
wound was terrible. It was above the right ear, and there was a mass of
brain tissue hanging/draping out of the hole, lying on the piece of skull
that was hanging there by a thread of skin, obviously. The hole extended
somewhat in to the middle top of the head, which you could see plainly.
The hole was larger in size than I would have ever thought it was. Well,
we commented on them, and Robert put them away, and we went on to other
things, such as being shown some of the home movies taken by eyewitnesses.
I specifically asked to see the Mark Bell footage.
My copy which I purchased from Canada was too dark and it was copied
while it was out of frame. He had a pristine copy of the film. It was
during this time that Robert mentioned that he had taken the original
films from the HSCA, made copies of them switched the reels, put the
copies on the original reels and gave those copies back to the HSCA.
While we were sitting there watching the films, a friend of Robert's came
for a visit. While he was there, he asked Robert if he had shown us the
autopsy photos yet, and wanted to see them again himself. So, Robert got
them back out again. Naturally, we all looked at them once again.
At this point, Barry wanted to go outside and have a cigarette, because
Robert didn't allow people smoke in his home. So he and Rich Ducar went
outside. I remained inside where it was cool, until I thought they were
never going to come back in. I would later find out that they were
discussing a plan on how to get these pictures to the press.
The rest of the day, we just sat around and chatted, and Robert showed
us his very, very clear print of the Zapruder film, at which time, I had
only seen the copy of his 16mm print,which was reduced to super 8 and sold
from Canada. I recall distinctly that Barry got very upset with me
because each time the president was hit in the head, I made some sort of
gasping sound, and Barry said "Do you have to do that?" At which I
replied, "Well, I have never seen it this clear before" and I apologized,
and I was embarrassed because I didn't realize I was gasping. After this,
I never ever made another sound like that.
I am not sure what time of the day, but sometime later in the afternoon,
or early evening, Robert's wife and kids came home. Barbara now some kids
to play with, and Jeanie had someone to talk with. All day long, we had
been smelling the heavenly aroma of home made spaghetti sauce. It had
been simmering for hours. We were asked to stay for dinner. This was
some of the best spaghetti I had ever tasted in my life!
After we ate dinner, the women were out in the kitchen and dining room,
the kids were playing in another room, and Robert pulled out some still
photos taken before, during and after the shooting. I distinctly recall
his version of Willis # 5. It had no arrow pointing at the president, and
the color was much better than the ones Willis sold from his home.
Robert remarked that he had tried to examine the reflection seen on the
trunk of the Secret Service car to see if he could see the 6th floor of
the TSBD in this Willis print. He also showed us a clear print of Altgens
photo, and told me that if I looked in the Jim Towner print he had, that I
would see a half empty bottle of soda pop sitting on the retaining all on
the knoll, which, I did.
I'm not sure what time it was, but I remember asking if I could see the
autopsy photos one last time before we departed. He let us see them again
before we departed at a little after one a.m. Our visit was a little over
12 hours long! Richard Ducar went on his way, Barry Jeanie, Barbara and I
left for Hazelton. We were almost home, maybe 5 or six miles from where
Barry lived, when, the car ran out of gas. Just about this time a Highway
Patrol Officer passed us. I told Barry to flash his lights, or we are
going to be stuck out here in the middle of the night. He seemed a little
apprehensive, but did it anyway. Thankfully, the patrolman came back, and
asked what the trouble was.
To make a long story short, the Patrolman went into town, called Barry's
brother Jack, and Jack brought enough gasoline to get us home and to the
gas station. I must admit, being from a small town of about 9000 people,
I didn't want to be stuck in the middle of the night out of gas on the
freeway!
I sure am thankful to God that this Highway patrolman passed us when he
did.
As I recall, we got back to Barry's place sometime after 3 am. Barry
headed straight for his little office in his home, and drew what we had
just seen in those autopsy photos. After this, I went to bed. I don't
know what time he went to bed. When I awakened around 8 or 9 a.m., The
Plesce family was already up. Barry was on the telephone. He was speaking
with Rich Ducar , and they were discussing the photos. I would later find
out that Barry and Rich had come up with a little plan to take Richs'
friend Tom Dunshee (now deceased) with them back to Robert's' so he could
see these photos. The only odd thing was-they had decided to steal the
photos from Groden. Here was how it was told to me: Tom was well over 6
feet tall, and very stocky. A truck driver ( I have a photograph of us
with him with our group in Hazelton P.A.). Rich and Barry had planned to
go back to Groden's and take Tom with them. They were going to ask to see
the autopsy photos again. As soon as Robert would have them in his hands
Tom was going to grab him and hold him in a bear hug, while Barry or Rich
would grab the envelope from Groden, and take off with them. They were
going to go to the press, and show them what they had. Since Groden had
stolen them, he wouldn't be stupid enough to call the law and so forth.
As it was explained to me, they were unable to do this, because they
couldn't get together with Robert right away, because he was unavailable.
This little plan went by the wayside. I didn't find out about it until I
was already home when Barry had telephoned me and told me what they had
planned to do,but failed. So, he asked me to draw what I saw in that
right lateral autopsy photograph.
This I did right away. I took the book "FOUR DAYS", which, on the dust
jacket has a photograph of JFK in his limousine on November 22, 1963 in
Dallas at Love Filed airport. I took a sheet of tracing paper, and traced
that picture of JFK. I then drew the head wound as I saw it in the "right
lateral" photograph. I wanted it to look as professional as I could, so I
took the Ida Dox drawing of JFK's brain as it appeared in the Bantam
release of the HSCA report, and sketched by tracing it over the hole in
the head.
I then made notations on the sheet, e.g. " Eyes open, dried blood in ear,
brain protruding, hair appeared to be wet extremely messy" and so forth.
I sent it off to Barry, without retaining a copy for myself.( I would
finally get my original-along with all of Barry's drawings- in 1999 after
Barry thought he had lost them forever in a fire where he lost some of his
JFK items. Thankfully these were NOT amomg the items lost in the fire).
Barry would see the photos on one or two more occasions when visiting
Groden with his family. All of his sketches show the head wound above and
to the front of the right ear, near the temple area, just as mine do.
You must keep in mind, none of these photographs were ever made available
to the public until 1988 in David Lifton's Carol and Graf edition of "BEST
EVIDENCE". Two of the drawings Barry made the nite we returned from
Groden's-the top of the head and left lateral- are identical with what
Lifton would publish in his book 8 years later. I'm leaving out the third
drawing the "Back of the head"- since we had the Ida Dox drawing in the
HSCA report. The fourth one would be the right Lateral.
This is the extent of what Barry and I did concerning the autopsy photos
until at least 12 years later when I phoned him and asked him if I could
have a photo copy of my drawing back, along with his drawings to compare
it with. Barry, who had dropped out of the case was afraid he had lost
them in the fire mentioned earlier. The next time the autopsy photos would
come up, would be when my newly made researcher friend Todd W. Vaughan
would come to Ohio for a visit. The weekend I returned from Hazelton, I
learned of a young researcher who was interested in the Dallas Police tape
recordings, which I had also become interested in prior to my visit with
Barry. To make along story short, Todd visited me in the summer of 1981
to discuss the acoustics etc. When we were discussing my visit to Groden's
the previous summer I made a rough sketch for him of the right lateral
autopsy photo.
As years passed, the JFK case of course sort of dropped out of sight,
until 1988,when the 25th anniversary came around. In 1989, the book "High
Treason" a project by Harrison Livingstone and Robert groden was
published. For the second time, we get a glimpse of the autopsy photos.
I am leafing through it, and I open to the page containing a "right
superior profile" of JFK in the autopsy room. I became enraged with
anger. I was wondering to myself,why didn't these two people- Groden and
Livingstone- publish that right LATERAL instead of this? This doesn't
show the extent of the head wound at all. So, then, I decided that, maybe
that right lateral was TOO much for public to see, and that's why they
didn't publish it.
Not long after this "HIGH TREASON 2" hit the bookshelves. At the time, I
didn't read the text, just looked at the photos-which were much,much
clearer than the ones in High Treason I.
Leafing through the book , I came across a letter from Jim Barger to
Robert Blakey. I was mentioned in the letter, so was curious to see what
it said. After reading it, I decided that I was going to write both
Groden and Livingstone, and offer them free access to my acoustics
files-since they had such a hard time understanding the crosstalk stuff.
This would include making them DPD tapes from my copies which were as
close to the originals as you could get long with transcripts- or anything
I had to help them. I was fed up with being raked over the coals for
being an honest guy and helping the NAS panel out.
A week or so after I sent Livingstone a letter, I received a reply from
him, along with money to cover the costs of photocopying what he wanted to
see. He was all ears and eyes. Robert Groden did NOT respond.
I mailed Livingstone the items he asked for. He seemed to be quite
intrigued by the information I had sent. He began asking more and more
questions. He then began to tell me of the falling out he and Groden had.
It dealt with different issues, one being that "Groden 'switched' some of
the photos in HIGH TREASON 1 behind his back". Somewhere here I asked
Livingstone why he doesnt publish that right lateral, and show the head
wound like it really is. Unbeknownst to me at the time,this would open up
another can of worms. Some of the results would be included in
Livingstone's book KILLING THE TRUTH. After KILLING THE TRUTH was
published, I received a phone call from Robert Groden. He proceeded to
ask me why I said what I stated in my memorandum. I told him that
everything I said was true. He asked me if I would please write a
withdrawal of my statement that I had seen a right lateral in his
collection . He was also angry that I supplied Livingstone with the
photograph of himself, Ducar and I in his living room in 1980.
I told Robert that I merely showed Livingstone the photograph, he asked
to borrow it, and then he phoned at a later date and asked if I minded if
he printed it in his book. I said I didn't care,and that was the end of
the subject. However, at Robert's request, I did agree to correct an error
in KILLING THE TRUTH, and that was that he (Groden) did not show me any
color autopsy photos, which was misprinted in the caption under the
photograph of us.
(I should take this opportunity and point out that, while we were
visiting Robert he had mentioned that he had the color photos, but the FBI
was on their way to "bust" him, so he "burned them", and/or "buried them"
two different stories were told. You take your pick).
In actuality, he never burned them obviously. They appear in color in
his book, "THE KILLING OF A PRESIDENT". Barry Plesce said he saw the color
photos during one of his later visits with Groden.
This would be the last time I would hear from Robert Groden, but things
just became more interesting as time passed. In June,1995, I received a
letter from Anne Buttimer who was on staff with the President Bush
appointed Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB). She asked me in the
letter to contact her via telephone concerning the right lateral
photograph, and my visit to Robert Groden's in 1980. I phoned her the next
day.
I was asked to go into as much detail as possible regarding the day at
Robert Groden's.
I was also asked to send the board the original print of the photograph
of Groden, Ducar and myself taken by Barry Plesce. This I did straight
away. They said they were making copies for their records and files.
In the winter 1996 I heard from the board again, only this time, it was
from a different board member, David Montague. He and another gentleman
wanted to discuss the day at Robert'son a speaker phone, and tape record
it for their records, then, they were going to draw up an affidavit, and I
was asked to read it over, make any corrections and send it back and they
would send a "final draft" for me to sign.
I had to correct a couple of words, and I sent it back immediately.
Within a week or so, I received the "final draft" and all I had to do was
get it notarized and send it back to them. However, between this time and
when I actually signed the final affidavit I was preparing to move to
Dallas, so this would have to wait.
I was offered a job at "The Conspiracy Museum" owned by none other than
R.B. Cutler. When I arrived in Dallas to go to work that day, I had
heard that Robert had also moved to Dallas, and he "wants to see me about
an affidavit when I get here". I already knew what he wanted to see me
about, but he was out of town until Thursday of that week. I didn't know
when he would be back to the museum. It was Thursday of my first week at
the Museum,and I am standing in the lobby, looking out the windows when
who do I see but Mr. Groden headed straight for the museum. I wasn't sure
if he was coming to see me or not, but I made a bee-line for the elevator
to take me downstairs, because I did not want to have a confrontation with
him in front of customers. I didn't know if it would get ugly or not, but
I wasn't about to take a chance. I was trying to hurry, before he gets
inside the Museum, and almost made it out of sight when he popped in
through the front doors, said Hi to everyone, and said " Steve didn't make
it huh?" My co-worker said " Yea, he's right there" and pointed right at
me. I thought to myself, Thanks, Ron.
Robert comes over, acts like we are best friends, and tells me he needs
to talk to me as soon as I am available. I said, that I was just going
down to eat my lunch, we can talk downstairs. We went to the office, sat
at the table and conversed about the whole issue; autopsy photos,
Livingstone, ARRB-you name it. He again asked me if I would please draw
up a statement saying that I did not see any color photos of the autopsy.
I told him I had no problem with that. I would do it as soon as I can.
If you can believe it, Robert then wanted to take me over to the Sixth
floor Museum, since he "is a board member and can get me in free" . I was
at first a bit apprehensive, but, I thought, why not? Being that I am a
Christian man, I thought maybe we could get to the bottom of this thing if
we became friends or something.
Several months passed, and I hardly saw Robert at all. Then, one day, he
came into the Museum and asked me if I had drawn up the statement saying
that I had not seen any color autopsy photos. He and I worked one out, and
he thanked me and left. I didn't know it then, but he was on his way to
testify to the ARRB about this and other matters. This was during August
1996. I didn't see Robert again, until Labor day, 1996. The Museum was
open, but business was pretty slow, so my boss, Tom Bowden, let me leave
early, since Monday and Tuesday were my two days off. At the time, I was
still parking my car in the parking lot behind the "grassy knoll" so, I
went to board my car, go home and enjoy my two days off. I ran into my
friend Greg Jaynes in Dealey Plaza. We were just about to leave, when
Robert Groden pulls into the parking lot and comes to the pergola where
Greg and I are standing. I had not seen him in at least a month so asked
him how he was doing. He was in a bad mood, and said, "My life is a
living hell because of Livingstone, Lifton and you" . Thinking he was
referring to the affidavit I sent the ARRB, I said, "Oh you mean about the
affidavit?" or words to that affect. He stood there looking at me and he
said "What affidavit?" "The affidavit the ARRB wanted me to sign about
the autopsy photos and stuff", I said. "So that's why they were raking me
over the coals." ( Thank God Greg Jaynes was there!). By this time,there
are several people on the concrete area by the pergola on the grassy
knoll. Robert raised his voice and said something like "Steve you didn't
see any picture different from what is in my book" . He then pulled out a
three ring note book full of photos, turned to the "right superior
profile" photograph, and said "This is what you saw, only it was a cropped
version, you didn't see any such photograph as you say you saw because it
doesn't exist!" He then proceeded to try and show me by covering part of
the picture with his hands saying "This is what you saw". I knew he was
lying, he knew he was lying. So, then Greg Jaynes asks him the magical
question: "Yea but what about those other people who were with Steve and
say they saw it?" Robert shouts "Well, they're all wrong! This is what I
get for showing people these photos".
And this is where it has ended more or less. The ARRB was unable to
force Robert Groden-under oath-to admit that he had such a photograph.
They failed to take my advice and contact Barry Plesce who would have
gladly corroborated the whole episode. There is only a brief statement
about it in the ARRB reoport concerning this. The only sure thing that
has surfaced is a few people-some photographers etc. present at the
autopsy- have said that there are some of the autopsy photos
"missing....." Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who
has at least one of them now, does it?
Stephan N. Barber
July 14, 1999
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http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/02/Doc-0009.jpg
Steve Barber claims that Robert Groden stole one of the autopsy photos
which we have never seen before. He just got confused when he looked at
a copy of the same Groden set which we have seen hundreds of times.
That is correct. There is a 1980 drawing. It is pointed out within the
thread at: alt.assassination.jfk that I made the drawing (which has now
been posted within this forum) in August 1998 for the ARRB, who
contacted me in 1995 regarding the matter of Groden's collection that he
showed Barry Plesce, Barry's wife, Jeannie, Rich Ducar and a neighbor of
Groden's (whose name escapes me at the moment). As I recall, I made the
drawing for the ARRB after the ARRB report was released, and after I had
spoken on the phone with Doug Horne in August 1998.
The August 1998 drawing was done from memory, nearly 20 years after
the fact. The 1980 drawing was done within 4 days of seeing the actual
photograph at Groden's.
As I pointed out within my post at John McAdams' newsgroup, I obtained
my original drawing( now in the hands of Ken Rahn) from Barry Plesce in
2003.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.assassination.jfk/steve$20groden$20autopsy$20drawing|sort:date/alt.assassination.jfk/i0YlUdFTUjQ/-Yzhq7QAftkJ
And I wish to take this opportunity to point out that never, at any
time, has Steve Barber ever used an "alias" in any of the newsgroups, or
elsewhere. Different email addresses, yes. Aliases, no. Because I have
never found the need to do any such thing. That is something conjured
up strictly within the sick and twisted mind of Anthony Marsh.
-------------------------
� Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 09:59:58 PM by Steve Barber �
________________________________________________________________
Drumrol1
Drumrols
Drumrolls
Drumrolls1
Drumrolls2
No matter what variation of Drumrolls you see it must be Steve Barber.
I think he copyrighted it.
LOL! You are quite the comic, Marsh. Quite the comic. "Hiding". No. Bored
with your silly little games. Yes!
