Robert Harris
2006-05-29 04:52:04 UTC
With only the exceptions of Drs. Humes, Boswell, and Finck, no-one in
the world got a better look at the back of President Kennedy's head,
and his wounds, than nurse, Diana Bowron at Parkland hospital.
As she explained in this interview, Bowron actually washed the
President's hair after his death, and assisted in cutting away his
clothing when he was first brought in.
Yet, when she tried to talk about the condition of the President's
head, in her WC testimony, Arlen Specter promptly guided her to a
different subject.
But Harold Livingstone was no Specter and was eager to let
nurse Bowron go into great detail about what she saw that day. This is
her complete interview as it appeared in Livingstone's book, *Killing
the Truth*.
Livingstone's interview of Diana Bowron
HL = Harold Livingstone
DB = Diana Bowron
HL: Would anybody have had access to the body to remove a bullet or
anything like that?
DB: No.
HL: You're absolutely sure?
DB: Positive.
HL: Okay. Did anybody look like they were-
DB: There was a black American-a black American orderly with me, too,
you know?
HL: Yeah. David?
DB: He was helping me clean up. He was there for a while. But apart
from that, he went out, and I was going to go out, and there was a guy
standing outside who I assume was Secret Service-I don't know-who told
me to stay in there because somebody-somebody has to be with the body
the whole time.
HL: So in your opinion, I'm sorry to keep going over this ground, but
in your opinion nobody-well, let me ask you, do you have the
impression that any doctor that you didn't know or anybody else might
have come to the body to remove a bullet from the throat or do
anything like that?
DB: The thing was, you've got to remember, I hadn't been there very
long.
HL: Yeah.
DB: Okay. And I didn't know a lot of the doctors, and a lot of them
evidently were, you know, heads of services and that sort of thing, who
really were getting in the way, if you know what I mean. So, apart from
the actual emergency doctors who I knew, you know, sort of, there were a
lot of them just to look at, you know, to recognize. There were a lot of
doctors there, but I can't say that there was one that nobody talked to,
if you know what I mean, that nobody knew. Everybody knew each other,
everybody was talking to each other. After everybody had gone out, after
they decided to declare him dead-nobody came in again.
HL: Yes.
DB: But ...
HL: Go ahead ...
DB: I know what you're trying to get at.
HL: I'm just trying to verify it-when he was still alive and they
performed the trach, which I presume you saw that operation ...
DB: Yes.
HL: You didn't see anything funny or anything that didn't ring right
with you as far as tampering with the body or anything like that-
anybody that might have taken a bullet from it?
DB: No.
HL: Okay. Do you remember any bullets or bullet fragments?
DB: No.
HL: You didn't see anything come from the body when they-
DB: No.
HL: Did you see the tracheostomy performed?
DB: I wasn't standing over it, no. I was working on one of his arms.
HL: Yeah. Did you know Dr. Perry?
DB: Well, I didn't know him that well then, but I knew Dr. Perry
reasonably well afterwards.
HL: Okay. So - but you knew who was operating on the throat, right?
DB: Yes.
HL: And did you think that was Perry, or somebody else?
DB: It was Perry. You see, as I say, I'd not been there very long and I
just sort of walked into the whole situation, because I was nearest to the
front door.
HL: Yeah, okay, and who helped you prepare the body for the coffin? That
was Henchliffe?
DB: Yeah, Margaret and myself and the African American all did- well, he
was sort of in cleaning up and everything.
HL: And how about Doris Nelson?
DB: Well, Doris tucked her head in.
HL: Okay.
DB: Well, let's put it that way. I don't want to sound nasty or anything,
but it's a case of when something like this happens, all the chiefs have
to say they were there, you know?
HL: That's the thing. A lot of them testified to things that I'm sure that
they didn't see, that they were repeating what they were told by the
others. And so then, trying to find-well-who's actually a witness and who
actually saw this or saw that, you know, that's a big problem. Do you
think there were any X-rays taken of the body that day?
DB: No.
HL: And any photographs? Do you remember any cameras?
DB: No.
HL: You're saying that you're sure that none were taken.
DB: Yes, I'm positive. Not while I was there.
HL: Do you remember when the body was wrapped up to go into the coffin,
was a towel put around the head before the sheets were wrapped around it?
DB: A towel?
HL: Yes.
DE: No.
HL: No towel?
DB: No towel, because I washed his hair. This is what I was going to write
to you about all these autopsy photographs with all the blood clots and
everything on the back....
HL: Is there anything peculiar about those pictures?
DB: Very peculiar, very peculiar. (Very long pause as she awaits a
question.)
HL: Well, I think they're fake as hell.
DB: Definitely. Definitely. On those pages that you told me, there's three
together, top of the F 6 and F 7, and something that-all are fake
completely because I washed all the clots out of his hair before I wrapped
it up.
HL: Yeah.
DB: And also somebody, which I don't know whether you know any- thing
about-I haven't seen it written anywhere-we wrapped him up, and Margaret
had gone, and somebody came in and flashed a badge or this thing at me and
just gave me a plastic bag, and said I was to collect all the bits of
brain and any bits of skull that was floating about. So I had to unwrap
everything again, and collect all these bits and give them to him.
HL: And you don't know who he was?
DB: No. You know the situation, you sort of-I was new to the States, and
you're sort of only a lowly nurse and these guys come flashing things at
you, you're never quite sure, you can't stand up and say, "Yeah, who are
you, who's authority?"
HL: Do you think he was connected to the hospital or to the Secret
Service?
DB: I don't think he was connected to the hospital, no.
HL: Would you say that Kennedy was alive when you first saw him?
DB: No, he was dead. Sure he was.
HL: And that was in the car?
DB: In the car, yes.
HL: So you saw him in the car?
DB: I had to - I got into the back of the car because we couldn't get him
out, because we had to get the Governor out first. So then I was with him
in the back, sort of trying to do first aid. And I couldn't get a pulse at
all, from anywhere, and I mean the damage that was done to his head, when
you've worked in things like that your first impulse is, "Oh God," you
know, "Forget it," but of course, being the President, you can't.
HL: So, in order to do the last rites, you think they sort of faked it a
little bit?
DB: Yes.
HL: And what was the status of his head? Did you see any other wounds
besides the head wound?
DB: There was the wound in the back.
HL: You saw that?
DB: In the, lower down on his back, the entry wound for the bullet.
HL: How far down was it?
DB: Oh, no, wait a minute, I'll send back your photograph, and mark with
an arrow where I think it was. But, I mean, it's lower than the top one.
HL: Did you turn over the body?
DB: Yes.
HL: Did anybody tell you to wash the body? I mean, tell the nurses to
clean up the body?
DB: No. I think it was just sort of a general consensus that-I think it
was Doris, actually, who said clean him up and get him ready. But, I mean,
we would have done it anyway, sort of as a courtesy. I mean, you don't
sort of leave the President, you know, to go to his-
HL: But you definitely saw-did it look like an entry or an exit wound in
his back?
DB: Entry wound.
HL: Okay. What size was it?
DB: Oh, it was small.
HL: Were the edges turned in?
DB: Yes.
HL: You remember that?
DB: Yes. The thing is, when you work in emergency rooms and you get to
know what looks like an entry wound and what looks like an exit, you know.
HL: Sure, yeah. There's like an abrasive collar or whatever.
DB: Mmm, yeah.
HL: Could you tell how far that hole went in to his back-or did you probe
it or..
DB: No, no.
HL: And, so did you see the wound in the throat before? When he was in the
car?
DB: Yes.
HL: Okay. And what did that look like?
DB: Well, that looked like an entry wound. It was larger than the one in
the back, and from what I can remember, I mean, I didn't see them in a
close space of time so I could actually say it was twice as big, but I got
the impression it was bigger? than the one that was in the back.
HL: Just by a bit? Or a whole lot?
DB: Quite a bit. Yeah, a whole lot, I'd say.
HL: But you still think it was an entry wound?
DB: Yes.
HL: Okay. Now, on the head wound, did you see anything that looked like
holes or perforations in the skull and the temple areas, or the forehead?
DB: No.
HL: No?
DB: No.
HL: You haven't read my second book, have you? High Treason 2?
DB: No.
HL: Okay. I'm going to send it to you, if you like. The reason is that if
you had read it, it might influence what you're telling me now ...
DB: Uh-huh.
HL: Because I have, I have reports from the morticians in Washington. So,
since you haven't read it-that's good. Because, what you're telling me is
not influenced by what I wrote already. But do you remember any
perforations in the head or did you see any holes or anything like a
bullet hole anywhere on his skull or in the back of the skull?
DB: At the back of the skull, an enormous hole.
HL: And would you-is that in the general area where that drawing- those
drawings-I'm sure you've seen them-where they've got a big piece of skull
missing in the very back of the head?
DB: Yes.
HL: Would you say that the hole's extended as far around as to be just
behind the right ear?
DB: Yes. It was more towards the right ear, definitely, then the left. But
it was, it was big. I mean, I could-and for when I did the thing, I had to
pack, you know, linens into there.
HL: And did you mean when you prepared the body for the coffin?
DB: Well, before that.
HL: Oh, to stanch the flow?
DB: Yes, to stanch the flow.
HL: Do you remember anything about the cerebellum?
DB: There wasn't much there.
HL: Not much brain?
DB: No.
HL: On the back of the head, did it extend around as far as the top of the
head? How much of the top of the head was missing? Was top of, was bone
missing as far as the sagittal suture-is that the one that goes across the
head?
DB: Hang on, you're getting terribly technical. I haven't nursed for
years. I'll have to go back to the textbooks.
HL: How much skull was missing on the top of the head, would you say, that
extended into that back of the head region?
DB: Oh, a reasonable amount.
HL: So part of the top of the head was missing in the back?
DB: Just trying to think how to put it to you. The hole was basically
almost the size of a saucer, and sort of from the occiput. So there was
quite a reasonable amount missing from the top as well.
HL: Was the occiput missing itself?
DB: I would say-
HL: I mean the protuberance.
DB: Part of it, yes.
HL: Okay. And how about the face, his face, how did that look?
DB: Well, it was-it looked like a face, let's put it that way. When he
left us, his eyes were closed, which they weren't in these photographs.
HL: His eyes were closed, not open?
DB: Yes.
HL: Would they, would they normally open after death after they'd already
been closed?
DB: Not usually, no.
HL: Or could they have opened on the emergency table?
DB: Well, no. When we put him in the coffin, you know, before we wrapped
him up and everything and then they were closed and when we wrapped his
head up in the sheets, they were closed then. So, with the pressure of the
material on them ...
HL: You think they would have stayed closed?
DB: I would think so. I mean, I'm not a mortician.
HL: Okay. But when you saw him in the car, were his eyes open or closed?
DB: Open, sort of half open.
HL: And how about in the-on the ER table, do you remember?
DB: They were open.
HL: Okay. If you can try to remember anybody taking pictures in there,
photographs, it's very important because there's a reason to think that
some of these autopsy pictures-I published a lot more of them in my last
book-that they're not taken at Bethesda, you know. Now, do you think that
any part of his face-like the right eye and the right forehead above it -
did that sag in or was there any bone missing in that area? Did his face
look so perfectly normal? Did you feel his face?
HL: You washed his face?
DB: I can't remember whether I washed it or Margaret washed it. I know I
washed his hair.
HL: Well, you would have noticed if a large piece of bone-see, the X-rays,
if you look at the X-rays in my book, they show the whole right front of
the face is gone from the eye area. And the lateral view X-ray is not the
same as the AP view. There's a lot more bone missing in the lateral view.
But most of the-most of them have the whole right eye area, from the top
of the orbit, at least, plus the forehead and the temporal bone is gone.
DB: No, no. I mean, I would have noticed something like that. You know, to
say his face looked like a dead body's face. You know, there was no injury
to the face.
HL: Yeah.
DB: It was just to his-the back of his head. And the one in his, in his
throat. But and by then it was the tracheostomy opening. But his face
itself, no.
HL: Okay. One more question about that. Do you remember any laceration
across the scalp from front to back where it comes on to the forehead,
where the scalp would have been lacerated and it goes straight back from
that area? Picture the right eyebrow. A laceration about a half an inch
into his forehead, and then going straight back, where the scalp was torn.
Do you remember anything like that?
DB: No.
HL: You would have because you washed the hair, right?
DB: Yes. When I say washed it, I just took cotton swabs and washed all the
clotting blood off. I mean, I didn't shampoo it or anything.
HL: So, in this massive hole, was there a flap of scalp there, or was
scalp actually gone?
DB: It was gone. Gone. There was nothing there. Just a big, gaping hole.
HL: We're talking about scalp first, and then bone, right?
DB: Yeah. There might have been little lumps of scalp, but most of the
bone over the hole, there was no bone there.
HL: Was there any part of a flap of scalp over that big defect in the bone
missing?
DB: What I'm saying is that the hole where the bone had gone, perhaps the
skin was a little bit smaller, if you know what I mean, but only
fractionally, just over the edge .
HL: So the scalp was blown out, too?
DB: Yes.
HL: I don't know if I should ask you this question-but did you have enough
experience either before or after to think that that was either an exit or
an entry hole?
DB: Well, to me it was an exit hole.
HL: Yeah.
DB: I mean, I've never seen one as big as that, but-
HL: Okay. Listen, you're going to draw me a picture, aren't you, to show
just where that hole is?
DB: Yeah.
HL: Okay. Great. Let's see, and you don't remember any towel at all being
wrapped around the head when it got to uh-
DB: What do you mean by towel? Sort of like a bath towel?
HL: Yeah, but the little ones, like-I forgot what they're called- service
towels, or toilet towels.
DB: No.
HL: Any, you know, smaller towels, any kind of towel at all?
DB: Terry cloth, you mean?
HL: Yeah.
DB: I'm just trying to think of the American word-terry cloth. No, there
was no terry cloth towel.
HL: And no-nothing that you would call towel? They were just sheets and
linens?
DB: Yes. Just sheets.
HL: Okay. Do you remember the coffin? Now, I want to tell you how some of
the others described it, in Parkland, but do you remember what it looked
like? Could it have been anything like plastic or a shipping casket?
DB: No. I was going to write to you, I've got a copy of an old illustrated
London News of the unloading-when it was taken from the plane at Andrews
Air Force Base. That's the same coffin that he was put in.
HL: The coffin that you see coming off the plane at Andrews Air Force
Base?
DB: Yes.
HL: It's the same coffin?
DB: Yes. If you like, I'll send you photostats of the photograph. If it
would be of any help.
HL: Yes, please. Oh, yes. It's very important because one of the things
I'm doing, Diana, is exposing a lot of fraud among the people that write
on this case. You know, there's a tremendous amount of hokum in this, and
so the evidence that you give is very important. But the same coffin at
Andrews?
DB: Yes. It was bronze. Bronze color.
HL: Bronze ...
DB: And I can't remember what the funeral home was called, but I do know-
HL: 'O'neal's'
DB: That's it, "O'neal's," Yes. I knew vaguely two of the guys who brought
the coffin because they used to run the ambulance.
HL: "Peanuts" and "Al," ah, Aubrey Rike.
DB: Aubrey rings a bell. You know how these people who bring in off road
accidents and things like this, you sort of get to know them. You don't
know them well, but you know-
HL: Okay. So you knew the men who brought the coffin?
DB: Yes. I'd seen them before, a couple of times. When they brought it in
they said it was the best that the home had at the time-if that's of any
help.
HL: Yeah. And so, it looked expensive to you?
DB: Well, I didn't really know terribly much about American coffins. You
know, all I knew was that American funerals were very expensive- . But
they did say that they'd brought the best that they've got because it was
for the President.
HL: Okay. Did you have any reason to think that there was any sort of a
post exam that went on after he died, you know, like the beginning of an
autopsy, or was there any inspection of the body by any medical people or
anybody else after they, after the doctors began disconnecting their tubes
and all that, before you started to clean it up?
DB: No. No.
HL: Okay. And no inspection, nothing organized?
DB: Nothing organized, no.
HL: Did you hear any rumors, or have any reason to think that the body was
removed from the coffin because they had to fight with Dr. Rose, who
wanted to have the autopsy there-do you remember that there was a battle
with the medical examiner out in the hall, and he didn't-
DB: No. Evidently all that took place outside in the hall. I have nothing
to do with that.
HL: Okay, but you were-
DB: I only heard it vaguely afterwards.
HL: Okay. Well, was the coffin in the room with you closed while-
DB: When we'd put him in the coffin, and the coffin was locked-sealed,
then I was told I could go. So I left, and I went across to the nurses'
station, and in the time it took someone to go and get me a cup of coffee
and get about half of the coffee down, then the coffin came out of the
room. There's no way that they could have got-because I faced it. I
couldn't see the actual door, but the angle was such that anybody coming
out of there I would have been able to see.
HL: There's no way they could have got the body out of there?
DB: No.
HL: Were there any other doors to the emergency room? Was it just one
door?
DB: No. There are other doors. But to get out of the building, it would
have to come past where I was, with a lot of the other staff. There was a
connection between-there was an alleyway between-sort of towards the back
of the emergency, not the trauma room where he was. He'd have to come out
of there, go down, there was an alley- way. But it wasn't wide enough for
a trolley, so he couldn't, he couldn't have taken it out there and any
other way would have to come out past the nurses' station.
HL: Do you remember whatever was used to line the coffin or wrap the body?
DB: It was a plastic sheet.
HL: And was it, was it-
DB: It wasn't a mattress cover, it was clear plastic. .
HL: Clear?
DB: Yes.
HL: Not a mattress cover?
DB: No.
HL: And do you remember anything like a body bag?
DB: No.
HL: Sheets and then the mattress cover outside the cloth?
DB: Yes.
HL; And that was it?
DB: Yes.
HL: Okay. I hope you'll still write me as quickly as you can-and draw the
picture and just make the mark on the back, you know, to show the entry
wound. That's very important.
DB: Yes.
HL: If you remember anything else that might be important, I sure hope
you'll tell me.
DB: Oh, yes, I will. If I remember anything else. The thing is, you forget
about all this and if you start thinking about it, you remember other bits
and pieces.
HL: Well, it must have been a very traumatic day.
DB: Oh, well, it was. Yes.
HL: How long did you stay in the country after that, in the States?
DB: Oh, I stayed for another, oh, what? Another two years at Parkland, and
then I spent a year in New York.
HL: Were you pursued at all much by the press, or researchers, or
anything?
DE: No.
HL: Oh, because I know they published stories in your hometown in England.
DB: Oh, God. That was my mother.
HL: She did all that?
DB: She did all that. I mean all these, all my quotes and things that have
nothing to do with me. I was furious.
HL: I still can't get over the fact of finding you where I found you right
now.
DB: Yes, yes. I've been in rather a lot of places.
HL: Did you see any entry hole in the back of the head?
DB: I assumed and I still do that that was an exit wound.
(unquote)
Robert Harris
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
the world got a better look at the back of President Kennedy's head,
and his wounds, than nurse, Diana Bowron at Parkland hospital.
As she explained in this interview, Bowron actually washed the
President's hair after his death, and assisted in cutting away his
clothing when he was first brought in.
Yet, when she tried to talk about the condition of the President's
head, in her WC testimony, Arlen Specter promptly guided her to a
different subject.
But Harold Livingstone was no Specter and was eager to let
nurse Bowron go into great detail about what she saw that day. This is
her complete interview as it appeared in Livingstone's book, *Killing
the Truth*.
Livingstone's interview of Diana Bowron
HL = Harold Livingstone
DB = Diana Bowron
HL: Would anybody have had access to the body to remove a bullet or
anything like that?
DB: No.
HL: You're absolutely sure?
DB: Positive.
HL: Okay. Did anybody look like they were-
DB: There was a black American-a black American orderly with me, too,
you know?
HL: Yeah. David?
DB: He was helping me clean up. He was there for a while. But apart
from that, he went out, and I was going to go out, and there was a guy
standing outside who I assume was Secret Service-I don't know-who told
me to stay in there because somebody-somebody has to be with the body
the whole time.
HL: So in your opinion, I'm sorry to keep going over this ground, but
in your opinion nobody-well, let me ask you, do you have the
impression that any doctor that you didn't know or anybody else might
have come to the body to remove a bullet from the throat or do
anything like that?
DB: The thing was, you've got to remember, I hadn't been there very
long.
HL: Yeah.
DB: Okay. And I didn't know a lot of the doctors, and a lot of them
evidently were, you know, heads of services and that sort of thing, who
really were getting in the way, if you know what I mean. So, apart from
the actual emergency doctors who I knew, you know, sort of, there were a
lot of them just to look at, you know, to recognize. There were a lot of
doctors there, but I can't say that there was one that nobody talked to,
if you know what I mean, that nobody knew. Everybody knew each other,
everybody was talking to each other. After everybody had gone out, after
they decided to declare him dead-nobody came in again.
HL: Yes.
DB: But ...
HL: Go ahead ...
DB: I know what you're trying to get at.
HL: I'm just trying to verify it-when he was still alive and they
performed the trach, which I presume you saw that operation ...
DB: Yes.
HL: You didn't see anything funny or anything that didn't ring right
with you as far as tampering with the body or anything like that-
anybody that might have taken a bullet from it?
DB: No.
HL: Okay. Do you remember any bullets or bullet fragments?
DB: No.
HL: You didn't see anything come from the body when they-
DB: No.
HL: Did you see the tracheostomy performed?
DB: I wasn't standing over it, no. I was working on one of his arms.
HL: Yeah. Did you know Dr. Perry?
DB: Well, I didn't know him that well then, but I knew Dr. Perry
reasonably well afterwards.
HL: Okay. So - but you knew who was operating on the throat, right?
DB: Yes.
HL: And did you think that was Perry, or somebody else?
DB: It was Perry. You see, as I say, I'd not been there very long and I
just sort of walked into the whole situation, because I was nearest to the
front door.
HL: Yeah, okay, and who helped you prepare the body for the coffin? That
was Henchliffe?
DB: Yeah, Margaret and myself and the African American all did- well, he
was sort of in cleaning up and everything.
HL: And how about Doris Nelson?
DB: Well, Doris tucked her head in.
HL: Okay.
DB: Well, let's put it that way. I don't want to sound nasty or anything,
but it's a case of when something like this happens, all the chiefs have
to say they were there, you know?
HL: That's the thing. A lot of them testified to things that I'm sure that
they didn't see, that they were repeating what they were told by the
others. And so then, trying to find-well-who's actually a witness and who
actually saw this or saw that, you know, that's a big problem. Do you
think there were any X-rays taken of the body that day?
DB: No.
HL: And any photographs? Do you remember any cameras?
DB: No.
HL: You're saying that you're sure that none were taken.
DB: Yes, I'm positive. Not while I was there.
HL: Do you remember when the body was wrapped up to go into the coffin,
was a towel put around the head before the sheets were wrapped around it?
DB: A towel?
HL: Yes.
DE: No.
HL: No towel?
DB: No towel, because I washed his hair. This is what I was going to write
to you about all these autopsy photographs with all the blood clots and
everything on the back....
HL: Is there anything peculiar about those pictures?
DB: Very peculiar, very peculiar. (Very long pause as she awaits a
question.)
HL: Well, I think they're fake as hell.
DB: Definitely. Definitely. On those pages that you told me, there's three
together, top of the F 6 and F 7, and something that-all are fake
completely because I washed all the clots out of his hair before I wrapped
it up.
HL: Yeah.
DB: And also somebody, which I don't know whether you know any- thing
about-I haven't seen it written anywhere-we wrapped him up, and Margaret
had gone, and somebody came in and flashed a badge or this thing at me and
just gave me a plastic bag, and said I was to collect all the bits of
brain and any bits of skull that was floating about. So I had to unwrap
everything again, and collect all these bits and give them to him.
HL: And you don't know who he was?
DB: No. You know the situation, you sort of-I was new to the States, and
you're sort of only a lowly nurse and these guys come flashing things at
you, you're never quite sure, you can't stand up and say, "Yeah, who are
you, who's authority?"
HL: Do you think he was connected to the hospital or to the Secret
Service?
DB: I don't think he was connected to the hospital, no.
HL: Would you say that Kennedy was alive when you first saw him?
DB: No, he was dead. Sure he was.
HL: And that was in the car?
DB: In the car, yes.
HL: So you saw him in the car?
DB: I had to - I got into the back of the car because we couldn't get him
out, because we had to get the Governor out first. So then I was with him
in the back, sort of trying to do first aid. And I couldn't get a pulse at
all, from anywhere, and I mean the damage that was done to his head, when
you've worked in things like that your first impulse is, "Oh God," you
know, "Forget it," but of course, being the President, you can't.
HL: So, in order to do the last rites, you think they sort of faked it a
little bit?
DB: Yes.
HL: And what was the status of his head? Did you see any other wounds
besides the head wound?
DB: There was the wound in the back.
HL: You saw that?
DB: In the, lower down on his back, the entry wound for the bullet.
HL: How far down was it?
DB: Oh, no, wait a minute, I'll send back your photograph, and mark with
an arrow where I think it was. But, I mean, it's lower than the top one.
HL: Did you turn over the body?
DB: Yes.
HL: Did anybody tell you to wash the body? I mean, tell the nurses to
clean up the body?
DB: No. I think it was just sort of a general consensus that-I think it
was Doris, actually, who said clean him up and get him ready. But, I mean,
we would have done it anyway, sort of as a courtesy. I mean, you don't
sort of leave the President, you know, to go to his-
HL: But you definitely saw-did it look like an entry or an exit wound in
his back?
DB: Entry wound.
HL: Okay. What size was it?
DB: Oh, it was small.
HL: Were the edges turned in?
DB: Yes.
HL: You remember that?
DB: Yes. The thing is, when you work in emergency rooms and you get to
know what looks like an entry wound and what looks like an exit, you know.
HL: Sure, yeah. There's like an abrasive collar or whatever.
DB: Mmm, yeah.
HL: Could you tell how far that hole went in to his back-or did you probe
it or..
DB: No, no.
HL: And, so did you see the wound in the throat before? When he was in the
car?
DB: Yes.
HL: Okay. And what did that look like?
DB: Well, that looked like an entry wound. It was larger than the one in
the back, and from what I can remember, I mean, I didn't see them in a
close space of time so I could actually say it was twice as big, but I got
the impression it was bigger? than the one that was in the back.
HL: Just by a bit? Or a whole lot?
DB: Quite a bit. Yeah, a whole lot, I'd say.
HL: But you still think it was an entry wound?
DB: Yes.
HL: Okay. Now, on the head wound, did you see anything that looked like
holes or perforations in the skull and the temple areas, or the forehead?
DB: No.
HL: No?
DB: No.
HL: You haven't read my second book, have you? High Treason 2?
DB: No.
HL: Okay. I'm going to send it to you, if you like. The reason is that if
you had read it, it might influence what you're telling me now ...
DB: Uh-huh.
HL: Because I have, I have reports from the morticians in Washington. So,
since you haven't read it-that's good. Because, what you're telling me is
not influenced by what I wrote already. But do you remember any
perforations in the head or did you see any holes or anything like a
bullet hole anywhere on his skull or in the back of the skull?
DB: At the back of the skull, an enormous hole.
HL: And would you-is that in the general area where that drawing- those
drawings-I'm sure you've seen them-where they've got a big piece of skull
missing in the very back of the head?
DB: Yes.
HL: Would you say that the hole's extended as far around as to be just
behind the right ear?
DB: Yes. It was more towards the right ear, definitely, then the left. But
it was, it was big. I mean, I could-and for when I did the thing, I had to
pack, you know, linens into there.
HL: And did you mean when you prepared the body for the coffin?
DB: Well, before that.
HL: Oh, to stanch the flow?
DB: Yes, to stanch the flow.
HL: Do you remember anything about the cerebellum?
DB: There wasn't much there.
HL: Not much brain?
DB: No.
HL: On the back of the head, did it extend around as far as the top of the
head? How much of the top of the head was missing? Was top of, was bone
missing as far as the sagittal suture-is that the one that goes across the
head?
DB: Hang on, you're getting terribly technical. I haven't nursed for
years. I'll have to go back to the textbooks.
HL: How much skull was missing on the top of the head, would you say, that
extended into that back of the head region?
DB: Oh, a reasonable amount.
HL: So part of the top of the head was missing in the back?
DB: Just trying to think how to put it to you. The hole was basically
almost the size of a saucer, and sort of from the occiput. So there was
quite a reasonable amount missing from the top as well.
HL: Was the occiput missing itself?
DB: I would say-
HL: I mean the protuberance.
DB: Part of it, yes.
HL: Okay. And how about the face, his face, how did that look?
DB: Well, it was-it looked like a face, let's put it that way. When he
left us, his eyes were closed, which they weren't in these photographs.
HL: His eyes were closed, not open?
DB: Yes.
HL: Would they, would they normally open after death after they'd already
been closed?
DB: Not usually, no.
HL: Or could they have opened on the emergency table?
DB: Well, no. When we put him in the coffin, you know, before we wrapped
him up and everything and then they were closed and when we wrapped his
head up in the sheets, they were closed then. So, with the pressure of the
material on them ...
HL: You think they would have stayed closed?
DB: I would think so. I mean, I'm not a mortician.
HL: Okay. But when you saw him in the car, were his eyes open or closed?
DB: Open, sort of half open.
HL: And how about in the-on the ER table, do you remember?
DB: They were open.
HL: Okay. If you can try to remember anybody taking pictures in there,
photographs, it's very important because there's a reason to think that
some of these autopsy pictures-I published a lot more of them in my last
book-that they're not taken at Bethesda, you know. Now, do you think that
any part of his face-like the right eye and the right forehead above it -
did that sag in or was there any bone missing in that area? Did his face
look so perfectly normal? Did you feel his face?
HL: You washed his face?
DB: I can't remember whether I washed it or Margaret washed it. I know I
washed his hair.
HL: Well, you would have noticed if a large piece of bone-see, the X-rays,
if you look at the X-rays in my book, they show the whole right front of
the face is gone from the eye area. And the lateral view X-ray is not the
same as the AP view. There's a lot more bone missing in the lateral view.
But most of the-most of them have the whole right eye area, from the top
of the orbit, at least, plus the forehead and the temporal bone is gone.
DB: No, no. I mean, I would have noticed something like that. You know, to
say his face looked like a dead body's face. You know, there was no injury
to the face.
HL: Yeah.
DB: It was just to his-the back of his head. And the one in his, in his
throat. But and by then it was the tracheostomy opening. But his face
itself, no.
HL: Okay. One more question about that. Do you remember any laceration
across the scalp from front to back where it comes on to the forehead,
where the scalp would have been lacerated and it goes straight back from
that area? Picture the right eyebrow. A laceration about a half an inch
into his forehead, and then going straight back, where the scalp was torn.
Do you remember anything like that?
DB: No.
HL: You would have because you washed the hair, right?
DB: Yes. When I say washed it, I just took cotton swabs and washed all the
clotting blood off. I mean, I didn't shampoo it or anything.
HL: So, in this massive hole, was there a flap of scalp there, or was
scalp actually gone?
DB: It was gone. Gone. There was nothing there. Just a big, gaping hole.
HL: We're talking about scalp first, and then bone, right?
DB: Yeah. There might have been little lumps of scalp, but most of the
bone over the hole, there was no bone there.
HL: Was there any part of a flap of scalp over that big defect in the bone
missing?
DB: What I'm saying is that the hole where the bone had gone, perhaps the
skin was a little bit smaller, if you know what I mean, but only
fractionally, just over the edge .
HL: So the scalp was blown out, too?
DB: Yes.
HL: I don't know if I should ask you this question-but did you have enough
experience either before or after to think that that was either an exit or
an entry hole?
DB: Well, to me it was an exit hole.
HL: Yeah.
DB: I mean, I've never seen one as big as that, but-
HL: Okay. Listen, you're going to draw me a picture, aren't you, to show
just where that hole is?
DB: Yeah.
HL: Okay. Great. Let's see, and you don't remember any towel at all being
wrapped around the head when it got to uh-
DB: What do you mean by towel? Sort of like a bath towel?
HL: Yeah, but the little ones, like-I forgot what they're called- service
towels, or toilet towels.
DB: No.
HL: Any, you know, smaller towels, any kind of towel at all?
DB: Terry cloth, you mean?
HL: Yeah.
DB: I'm just trying to think of the American word-terry cloth. No, there
was no terry cloth towel.
HL: And no-nothing that you would call towel? They were just sheets and
linens?
DB: Yes. Just sheets.
HL: Okay. Do you remember the coffin? Now, I want to tell you how some of
the others described it, in Parkland, but do you remember what it looked
like? Could it have been anything like plastic or a shipping casket?
DB: No. I was going to write to you, I've got a copy of an old illustrated
London News of the unloading-when it was taken from the plane at Andrews
Air Force Base. That's the same coffin that he was put in.
HL: The coffin that you see coming off the plane at Andrews Air Force
Base?
DB: Yes.
HL: It's the same coffin?
DB: Yes. If you like, I'll send you photostats of the photograph. If it
would be of any help.
HL: Yes, please. Oh, yes. It's very important because one of the things
I'm doing, Diana, is exposing a lot of fraud among the people that write
on this case. You know, there's a tremendous amount of hokum in this, and
so the evidence that you give is very important. But the same coffin at
Andrews?
DB: Yes. It was bronze. Bronze color.
HL: Bronze ...
DB: And I can't remember what the funeral home was called, but I do know-
HL: 'O'neal's'
DB: That's it, "O'neal's," Yes. I knew vaguely two of the guys who brought
the coffin because they used to run the ambulance.
HL: "Peanuts" and "Al," ah, Aubrey Rike.
DB: Aubrey rings a bell. You know how these people who bring in off road
accidents and things like this, you sort of get to know them. You don't
know them well, but you know-
HL: Okay. So you knew the men who brought the coffin?
DB: Yes. I'd seen them before, a couple of times. When they brought it in
they said it was the best that the home had at the time-if that's of any
help.
HL: Yeah. And so, it looked expensive to you?
DB: Well, I didn't really know terribly much about American coffins. You
know, all I knew was that American funerals were very expensive- . But
they did say that they'd brought the best that they've got because it was
for the President.
HL: Okay. Did you have any reason to think that there was any sort of a
post exam that went on after he died, you know, like the beginning of an
autopsy, or was there any inspection of the body by any medical people or
anybody else after they, after the doctors began disconnecting their tubes
and all that, before you started to clean it up?
DB: No. No.
HL: Okay. And no inspection, nothing organized?
DB: Nothing organized, no.
HL: Did you hear any rumors, or have any reason to think that the body was
removed from the coffin because they had to fight with Dr. Rose, who
wanted to have the autopsy there-do you remember that there was a battle
with the medical examiner out in the hall, and he didn't-
DB: No. Evidently all that took place outside in the hall. I have nothing
to do with that.
HL: Okay, but you were-
DB: I only heard it vaguely afterwards.
HL: Okay. Well, was the coffin in the room with you closed while-
DB: When we'd put him in the coffin, and the coffin was locked-sealed,
then I was told I could go. So I left, and I went across to the nurses'
station, and in the time it took someone to go and get me a cup of coffee
and get about half of the coffee down, then the coffin came out of the
room. There's no way that they could have got-because I faced it. I
couldn't see the actual door, but the angle was such that anybody coming
out of there I would have been able to see.
HL: There's no way they could have got the body out of there?
DB: No.
HL: Were there any other doors to the emergency room? Was it just one
door?
DB: No. There are other doors. But to get out of the building, it would
have to come past where I was, with a lot of the other staff. There was a
connection between-there was an alleyway between-sort of towards the back
of the emergency, not the trauma room where he was. He'd have to come out
of there, go down, there was an alley- way. But it wasn't wide enough for
a trolley, so he couldn't, he couldn't have taken it out there and any
other way would have to come out past the nurses' station.
HL: Do you remember whatever was used to line the coffin or wrap the body?
DB: It was a plastic sheet.
HL: And was it, was it-
DB: It wasn't a mattress cover, it was clear plastic. .
HL: Clear?
DB: Yes.
HL: Not a mattress cover?
DB: No.
HL: And do you remember anything like a body bag?
DB: No.
HL: Sheets and then the mattress cover outside the cloth?
DB: Yes.
HL; And that was it?
DB: Yes.
HL: Okay. I hope you'll still write me as quickly as you can-and draw the
picture and just make the mark on the back, you know, to show the entry
wound. That's very important.
DB: Yes.
HL: If you remember anything else that might be important, I sure hope
you'll tell me.
DB: Oh, yes, I will. If I remember anything else. The thing is, you forget
about all this and if you start thinking about it, you remember other bits
and pieces.
HL: Well, it must have been a very traumatic day.
DB: Oh, well, it was. Yes.
HL: How long did you stay in the country after that, in the States?
DB: Oh, I stayed for another, oh, what? Another two years at Parkland, and
then I spent a year in New York.
HL: Were you pursued at all much by the press, or researchers, or
anything?
DE: No.
HL: Oh, because I know they published stories in your hometown in England.
DB: Oh, God. That was my mother.
HL: She did all that?
DB: She did all that. I mean all these, all my quotes and things that have
nothing to do with me. I was furious.
HL: I still can't get over the fact of finding you where I found you right
now.
DB: Yes, yes. I've been in rather a lot of places.
HL: Did you see any entry hole in the back of the head?
DB: I assumed and I still do that that was an exit wound.
(unquote)
Robert Harris
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/