Woolsey's new book

Post by hrtshpdbox
I read this group through Google, so probably get a delay, but I haven't
seen anything here on this book that alleges that Khruschev, perhaps
personally, asked Oswald to kill JFK (then changed his mind, but Oswald
followed through anyway). I'm thinking I've heard Woolsey is a bit
unhinged (but, again, don't see much on Woolsey here, even in past
comments). Anything purportedly good and/or useful in the new book?
https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Dragon-Inside-Kremlins-America/dp/1641771453/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=woolsey&qid=1614095142&rnid=2941120011&s=books&sr=1-1

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?

The Khrushchev story about "helping" JFK get elected is here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

Pamela Brown

2021-02-24 10:53:56 UTC

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

True, but wasn't it Kruschev who boasted "we will bury you?"

John Corbett

2021-02-24 18:43:29 UTC

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

True, but wasn't it Kruschev who boasted "we will bury you?"

When I was ten years old, I thought Khrushchev was the scariest man in the
world. Looking back from the perspective of history, I realize now that
image was largely a product of our own propaganda. Yes, he was the leader
of the Soviet Union and our Cold War enemy but he was not the madman he
was portrayed as. He had seen the horrors of war during WWII and I don't
think he had the stomach to see another. He wanted to expand the Soviet
Bloc but preferred to do it through surrogates. He did not want to have a
direct confrontation with the US because he knew both sides would lose in
that one. He chose to negotiate an end to the Cuban Missile Crisis despite
pressure from the Soviet hardliners who ended up ousting him a few years
later. I'm not trying to say Khrushchev was one of the great humanitarians
of the 20th century but he was no Joseph Stalin either.

Pamela Brown

2021-02-27 13:13:08 UTC

Post by John Corbett

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

True, but wasn't it Kruschev who boasted "we will bury you?"

What about the Hegelian dialectic that the Communists believe in? You have
to create upheaval in order to end up creating something new?

Anthony Marsh

2021-02-26 22:09:29 UTC

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

True, but wasn't it Kruschev who boasted "we will bury you?"

Da. Regardless of who was President.
Here's a thought experiment for you.
Would there even be any way that there needed to be a Cuban Missile
Crisis if Nixon had been President? If so, would have it ended in WWIII?

Pamela Brown

2021-02-27 13:13:12 UTC

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

True, but wasn't it Kruschev who boasted "we will bury you?"

I think that's a valid question, even though we can only 'answer' it in
the abstract. I doubt that there would have been a Cuban Missile Crisis if
Nixon were President, because he would have known what was in the works
and likely gone along with it. That said, if the Bay of Pigs invasion had
succeeded, would the USSR have retaliated? If so, we could have had WWIII.

Anthony Marsh

2021-02-28 02:58:30 UTC

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

True, but wasn't it Kruschev who boasted "we will bury you?"

Yes, I can't prove it, but I think the Bay of Pigs invasionm would have
been successul under Nixon. Bolder, with US forces.

Pamela Brown

2021-03-08 03:30:30 UTC

Post by Anthony Marsh

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

True, but wasn't it Kruschev who boasted "we will bury you?"

Yes, I can't prove it, but I think the Bay of Pigs invasionm would have
been successul under Nixon. Bolder, with US forces.

I agree.

Steve M. Galbraith

2021-02-27 20:33:17 UTC

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

True, but wasn't it Kruschev who boasted "we will bury you?"

I would offer up that Nixon would have called for a US military invasion
in support of the failing Bay of Pigs invasion.

But if not would Khrushchev have gambled with Nixon the way he did with
JFK? As he wrote, he originally viewed JFK as "smart but weak." He didn't
view Nixon that way. So it's possible that he wouldn't have risked placing
missiles in Cuba with Nixon as president. No missiles = no crisis.

Khrushchev recounts in his autobiography how he and his advisers reacted
when they got that communication from Castro calling for the Soviets to
launch a preemptive nuclear strike during the missile crisis. They were
stunned. They weren't going to go to nuclear war for Cuba. I think if we
had invaded the Soviets would have retreated. But all of those nuclear
warheads - reportedly it was about 120 - would have been there. Who knows
whether the control of them would have been lost. Had Castro or Che gotten
them I think in their fanatical hatred of the US they would have tried to
somehow use them.

John Corbett

2021-02-28 02:58:15 UTC

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

True, but wasn't it Kruschev who boasted "we will bury you?"

I would offer up that Nixon would have called for a US military invasion
in support of the failing Bay of Pigs invasion.
But if not would Khrushchev have gambled with Nixon the way he did with
JFK? As he wrote, he originally viewed JFK as "smart but weak." He didn't
view Nixon that way. So it's possible that he wouldn't have risked placing
missiles in Cuba with Nixon as president. No missiles = no crisis.
Khrushchev recounts in his autobiography how he and his advisers reacted
when they got that communication from Castro calling for the Soviets to
launch a preemptive nuclear strike during the missile crisis. They were
stunned. They weren't going to go to nuclear war for Cuba. I think if we
had invaded the Soviets would have retreated. But all of those nuclear
warheads - reportedly it was about 120 - would have been there. Who knows
whether the control of them would have been lost. Had Castro or Che gotten
them I think in their fanatical hatred of the US they would have tried to
somehow use them.

Kennedy believed that had the US bombed and/or invaded Cuba during the
CMC, the Soviets would have responded by moving against Berlin. Our treaty
commitment to NATO would have required us to respond and from there things
could have quickly unraveled.

Steve M. Galbraith

2021-02-25 02:18:03 UTC

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

Corrected link for that story is here: https://tinyurl.com/mtjzeh79

I just don't see Khrushchev worried enough about JFK - or reckless enough
either - to order JFK's death. And what is the evidence that Oswald met
Khrushchev to receive such orders? In person? Given how the KGB viewed
Oswald I don't think the Soviets would trust Oswald with such a task. It
simply doesn't add up to me.

ajohnstone

2021-02-25 13:03:53 UTC

Another review

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9289315/Lee-Harvey-Oswald-told-Soviet-leader-Nikita-Khrushchev-kill-JFK-ex-CIA-chief-claims.html

I'm always cautious when i read intelligence operatives, after all, their
value is their ability to deceive.

And a video news report of another new book

https://www.wwltv.com/video/news/local/morning-show/new-book-explores-untold-stories-of-lee-harvey-oswald/289-3f300f33-7d35-4ff8-81af-3a13c34dbcf0

Still "gold in them thar hills"

ajohnstone

2021-02-25 13:03:56 UTC

Ooops did i forget to post the link

https://www.wwltv.com/video/news/local/morning-show/new-book-explores-untold-stories-of-lee-harvey-oswald/289-3f300f33-7d35-4ff8-81af-3a13c34dbcf0

John Corbett

2021-02-26 02:13:44 UTC

Pacepa, who co-wrote the book, has been around for a long time suggesting
such a theory. It makes no sense to me on any level. Khrushchev wrote in
his autobiography that he initially viewed Kennedy as "smart but weak" and
that he, Khrushchev, could take advantage of him. Recall JFK's account of
the Vienna Summit? Khrushchev said he was more worried about the hawks in
the military then he was with Kennedy. He even said to JFK - whether it
was true or not - that he wanted JFK to defeat Nixon and that he made a
deliberate decision to be quiet, e.g., not release U-2 pilot Gary Powers,
so as to help JFK win. So why try to eliminate JFK? For what benefit?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/06/this-kremlin-leader-bragged
-about-tipping-a-u-s-presidential-election/

Corrected link for that story is here: https://tinyurl.com/mtjzeh79
I just don't see Khrushchev worried enough about JFK - or reckless enough
either - to order JFK's death. And what is the evidence that Oswald met
Khrushchev to receive such orders? In person? Given how the KGB viewed
Oswald I don't think the Soviets would trust Oswald with such a task. It
simply doesn't add up to me.

Khrushchev would have had the same problem as every other proposed
conspirator. How could he have known to place Oswald in the TSBD weeks
before the motorcade route had even been selected. The route was only
announced on Monday of that week. Are we supposed to believe that the KGB
located Oswald and then persuaded him to carry out an assassination that
would almost certainly have result in his being sentenced to death. Oswald
got his chance by happenstance. Nobody plans happenstance. Random chance
gave Oswald the opportunity and he took full advantage. Had the Trade Mart
not been selected as the luncheon site, the motorcade route would not have
taken JFK past the TSBD.

Whether one believes Oswald was an active participant in the assassination
or just a patsy, there's always that problem of how would anyone have
known to place him in the TSBD. Without that foreknowledge, then we would
have to believe that whoever was behind the assassination had just days to
locate a suitable candidate to carry out the assassination and convince
him to sacrifice his life to achieve their goal.

Steve M. Galbraith

2021-02-27 01:46:35 UTC

Post by John Corbett