Discussion:
For Anthony Marsh...an extreme hypothesis...
(too old to reply)
Pamela Brown
2020-10-04 02:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...

Thanks,
Pamela
Anthony Marsh
2020-10-04 17:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
Well. I am not sure what you ned from me.
I am quoe comfortable with the WIKI summation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

I don't personally know of any efforts beyond that and it was only using
journalists. Yes.I know the Mockingbird sings, but it has no lyrics. I am
not sure when wnad whom you could suspect. I can'r remember any
songwriters during that time frame who were supposed protesting, but
actually working for the CIA. Maybe one ot two activists who were actually
journalists. Not songwriters. So, do you want me to help you make up a
crazy conspiracy theory about this? I'll have to make up a list and pick
one at random.
Pamela Brown
2020-10-05 20:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
Well. I am not sure what you ned from me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird
I don't personally know of any efforts beyond that and it was only using
journalists. Yes.I know the Mockingbird sings, but it has no lyrics. I am
not sure when wnad whom you could suspect. I can'r remember any
songwriters during that time frame who were supposed protesting, but
actually working for the CIA. Maybe one ot two activists who were actually
journalists. Not songwriters. So, do you want me to help you make up a
crazy conspiracy theory about this? I'll have to make up a list and pick
one at random.
Thanks, Anthony. I appreciate your help. I'm working on a presentation on
Decoding Murder Most Foul and came up with some odd coincidences...

Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
19efppp
2020-10-05 14:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
Marsh doesn't want to play. Paul McCartney was a CIA mole in the Beatles.
Nowhere Man vs. Let It Be. John died a strange death. I like it. He shoots
Coca-Cola, Paul does. That means he's fake. Spook sunglasses on Abbey Road
would have been better for the theory, though. But, then again, Revolution
kinda makes John sound CIA. Shooby dooah. Don'tchyah know that you can't
count me out-in? Maybe John was a double agent. This is getting better.
John turned on them so Bush had Chapman kill him, or was it Hinckley?
Maybe Bush couldn't decide whether he wanted to be president or a rock
star. Oh well. I guess we'll never know.
Anthony Marsh
2020-10-06 03:11:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can
you think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible
songwriters from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide
information about tumultuous events intended for the country? The
objective would be to have them write songs intended to keep their fans
complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
Marsh doesn't want to play. Paul McCartney was a CIA mole in the Beatles.
NOT a good pick. As I remember it, he was really British, so the CIA
would not be using him as a mole. A mole is someone already in an
intelligence agency and recruited by an ENEMY agency to spy on his or
her original aency for the enemy agency.

I don't think any Beetle would be MI-5 or MI-6. Got a movie about that?
Well. actually there was an old Sci-Fi movie that used that plot. The
President's ANALYST.


https://www.aleksandreia.com/2009/08/04/on-tcm-tonight-8pm-edt-james-coburn-in-the-presidents-analyst/
Post by 19efppp
Nowhere Man vs. Let It Be. John died a strange death. I like it. He shoots
Coca-Cola, Paul does. That means he's fake. Spook sunglasses on Abbey Road
would have been better for the theory, though. But, then again, Revolution
kinda makes John sound CIA. Shooby dooah. Don'tchyah know that you can't
count me out-in? Maybe John was a double agent. This is getting better.
John turned on them so Bush had Chapman kill him, or was it Hinckley?
Maybe Bush couldn't decide whether he wanted to be president or a rock
star. Oh well. I guess we'll never know.
YOU lost me there at Pepsi.
19efppp
2020-10-06 23:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can
you think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible
songwriters from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide
information about tumultuous events intended for the country? The
objective would be to have them write songs intended to keep their fans
complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
Marsh doesn't want to play. Paul McCartney was a CIA mole in the Beatles.
NOT a good pick. As I remember it, he was really British, so the CIA
would not be using him as a mole. A mole is someone already in an
intelligence agency and recruited by an ENEMY agency to spy on his or
her original aency for the enemy agency.
I don't think any Beetle would be MI-5 or MI-6. Got a movie about that?
Well. actually there was an old Sci-Fi movie that used that plot. The
President's ANALYST.
https://www.aleksandreia.com/2009/08/04/on-tcm-tonight-8pm-edt-james-coburn-in-the-presidents-analyst/
Post by 19efppp
Nowhere Man vs. Let It Be. John died a strange death. I like it. He shoots
Coca-Cola, Paul does. That means he's fake. Spook sunglasses on Abbey Road
would have been better for the theory, though. But, then again, Revolution
kinda makes John sound CIA. Shooby dooah. Don'tchyah know that you can't
count me out-in? Maybe John was a double agent. This is getting better.
John turned on them so Bush had Chapman kill him, or was it Hinckley?
Maybe Bush couldn't decide whether he wanted to be president or a rock
star. Oh well. I guess we'll never know.
YOU lost me there at Pepsi.
Bobby Hargis was the only Beatle wearing a black rose at Parkland
Hospital.
Steven M. Galbraith
2020-10-07 03:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can
you think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible
songwriters from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide
information about tumultuous events intended for the country? The
objective would be to have them write songs intended to keep their fans
complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
Marsh doesn't want to play. Paul McCartney was a CIA mole in the Beatles.
NOT a good pick. As I remember it, he was really British, so the CIA
would not be using him as a mole. A mole is someone already in an
intelligence agency and recruited by an ENEMY agency to spy on his or
her original aency for the enemy agency.
I don't think any Beetle would be MI-5 or MI-6. Got a movie about that?
Well. actually there was an old Sci-Fi movie that used that plot. The
President's ANALYST.
https://www.aleksandreia.com/2009/08/04/on-tcm-tonight-8pm-edt-james-coburn-in-the-presidents-analyst/
Post by 19efppp
Nowhere Man vs. Let It Be. John died a strange death. I like it. He shoots
Coca-Cola, Paul does. That means he's fake. Spook sunglasses on Abbey Road
would have been better for the theory, though. But, then again, Revolution
kinda makes John sound CIA. Shooby dooah. Don'tchyah know that you can't
count me out-in? Maybe John was a double agent. This is getting better.
John turned on them so Bush had Chapman kill him, or was it Hinckley?
Maybe Bush couldn't decide whether he wanted to be president or a rock
star. Oh well. I guess we'll never know.
YOU lost me there at Pepsi.
The Cambridge Five were "moles" who were recruited by the Soviets BEFORE
they joined British intelligence. Apparently they were all recruited while
at Cambridge (hence the name) although one of them (Blunt) said he was
recruited later after leaving it.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-10-06 03:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
David Crosby was the crazy loon spouting conspiracy theories at The Byrds
concerts. That's not enough for you?



"When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was
shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story
has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country,
ladies and gentlemen."

Hank
John Corbett
2020-10-06 23:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
David Crosby was the crazy loon spouting conspiracy theories at The Byrds
concerts. That's not enough for you?
http://youtu.be/7Bb4DpejUUA
"When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was
shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story
has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country,
ladies and gentlemen."
David Crosby's mind had been altered by drugs. I wonder what some of our
resident CT's excuses are.
John Corbett
2020-10-07 14:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
David Crosby was the crazy loon spouting conspiracy theories at The Byrds
concerts. That's not enough for you?
http://youtu.be/7Bb4DpejUUA
"When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was
shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story
has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country,
ladies and gentlemen."
David Crosby's mind had been altered by drugs. I wonder what some of our
resident CT's excuses are.
I saw a documentary a few years ago and it seems that Stills, Nash, and
Young couldn't stand Crosby. To a man they said they would never perform
with him again under any circumstances which pretty much killed the idea
of a reunion tour.
Pamela Brown
2020-10-07 03:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
David Crosby was the crazy loon spouting conspiracy theories at The Byrds
concerts. That's not enough for you?
http://youtu.be/7Bb4DpejUUA
"When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was
shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story
has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country,
ladies and gentlemen."
Hank
i'm not talking about spouting conspiracy theories. That's what Murder
Most Foul does. Sixty years later. I'm talking about making an agreement.
Anthony Marsh
2020-10-07 03:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can
you think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible
songwriters from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide
information about tumultuous events intended for the country? The
objective would be to have them write songs intended to keep their fans
complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
David Crosby was the crazy loon spouting conspiracy theories at The
Byrds concerts. That's not enough for you?
No, silly. Way off topic.
The topic is Mockingbired.
How could his conspiracy theory be part of Mockingbird?
You think rhe CIA hired people to start conspiracy theories about the
CIA killing JFK?
THAT's a crazy theory.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
http://youtu.be/7Bb4DpejUUA
"When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was
shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story
has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country,
ladies and gentlemen."
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-10-10 01:11:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can
you think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible
songwriters from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide
information about tumultuous events intended for the country? The
objective would be to have them write songs intended to keep their fans
complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
David Crosby was the crazy loon spouting conspiracy theories at The
Byrds concerts. That's not enough for you?
http://youtu.be/7Bb4DpejUUA
"When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was
shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story
has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country,
ladies and gentlemen." > No, silly. Way off topic.
The topic is Mockingbired.
How could his conspiracy theory be part of Mockingbird?
You think rhe CIA hired people to start conspiracy theories about the
CIA killing JFK?
THAT's a crazy theory.
It's been suggested by conspiracy theorists who disagree with other
conspiracy theorists and think their theories are too far out there. They
claim other CTs are plants to give CTs a bad name. You've never heard
anyone suggest that?

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2020-10-11 03:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can
you think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible
songwriters from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide
information about tumultuous events intended for the country? The
objective would be to have them write songs intended to keep their fans
complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
David Crosby was the crazy loon spouting conspiracy theories at The
Byrds concerts. That's not enough for you?
http://youtu.be/7Bb4DpejUUA
"When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was
shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story
has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country,
ladies and gentlemen." > No, silly. Way off topic.
The topic is Mockingbired.
How could his conspiracy theory be part of Mockingbird?
You think rhe CIA hired people to start conspiracy theories about the
CIA killing JFK?
THAT's a crazy theory.
It's been suggested by conspiracy theorists who disagree with other
conspiracy theorists and think their theories are too far out there. They
claim other CTs are plants to give CTs a bad name. You've never heard
anyone suggest that?
Hank
Well. it's one thing to hurle insults ad another thing to prove facts.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-10-12 00:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can
you think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible
songwriters from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide
information about tumultuous events intended for the country? The
objective would be to have them write songs intended to keep their fans
complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
David Crosby was the crazy loon spouting conspiracy theories at The
Byrds concerts. That's not enough for you?
http://youtu.be/7Bb4DpejUUA
"When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was
shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story
has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country,
ladies and gentlemen." > No, silly. Way off topic.
The topic is Mockingbired.
No, the topic was folk singers being co-opted by the CIA to sing songs to
tamp down the revolution.

Frankly, after the turbulent 60s and the early 70s, I think the country
just needed to take a step back. So we got Steve Goodman singing "It aint
hard to get along with someone else's troubles" and Seals and Crofts
singing "summer breeze". And Jackson Browne singing "Take it Easy".
Etc.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
How could his conspiracy theory be part of Mockingbird?
It's evidence counter to Pamela's "hypothesis".
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You think rhe CIA hired people to start conspiracy theories about the
CIA killing JFK?
THAT's a crazy theory.
It's been suggested by conspiracy theorists who disagree with other
conspiracy theorists and think their theories are too far out there. They
claim other CTs are plants to give CTs a bad name. You've never heard
anyone suggest that?
Hank
Well. it's one thing to hurle insults ad another thing to prove facts.
You hurled the insult and said it was "a crazy theory" to suggest that
some CTs might actually be part of the coverup and out to do the movement
harm. One needs only read almost any issue of "The Third Decade" (or the
later "The Fourth Decade") to understand that accusation was hurled back
and forth by CTs all the time.

It was the CTs hurling those insults. I'm just referencing them. I don't
believe any CT has been hired by the CIA to help cover up the conspiracy,
because I don't believe there was a conspiracy here. Try to follow along
and not lose sight of the argument being advanced.
Hank
Anthony Marsh
2020-10-13 11:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can
you think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible
songwriters from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide
information about tumultuous events intended for the country? The
objective would be to have them write songs intended to keep their fans
complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
David Crosby was the crazy loon spouting conspiracy theories at The
Byrds concerts. That's not enough for you?
http://youtu.be/7Bb4DpejUUA
"When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was
shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story
has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country,
ladies and gentlemen." > No, silly. Way off topic.
The topic is Mockingbired.
No, the topic was folk singers being co-opted by the CIA to sing songs to
tamp down the revolution.
I DON'T THINK ANYONE SAID that.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Frankly, after the turbulent 60s and the early 70s, I think the country
just needed to take a step back. So we got Steve Goodman singing "It aint
hard to get along with someone else's troubles" and Seals and Crofts
singing "summer breeze". And Jackson Browne singing "Take it Easy".
Etc.
HUH? You make no sense.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
How could his conspiracy theory be part of Mockingbird?
It's evidence counter to Pamela's "hypothesis".
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You think rhe CIA hired people to start conspiracy theories about the
CIA killing JFK?
THAT's a crazy theory.
It's been suggested by conspiracy theorists who disagree with other
conspiracy theorists and think their theories are too far out there. They
claim other CTs are plants to give CTs a bad name. You've never heard
anyone suggest that?
Hank
Well. it's one thing to hurle insults ad another thing to prove facts.
You hurled the insult and said it was "a crazy theory" to suggest that
some CTs might actually be part of the coverup and out to do the movement
harm. One needs only read almost any issue of "The Third Decade" (or the
later "The Fourth Decade") to understand that accusation was hurled back
and forth by CTs all the time.
It was the CTs hurling those insults. I'm just referencing them. I don't
believe any CT has been hired by the CIA to help cover up the conspiracy,
because I don't believe there was a conspiracy here. Try to follow along
and not lose sight of the argument being advanced.
Hank
19efppp
2020-10-07 03:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
Pamela Brown
2020-10-09 00:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.

But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.

Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
Mark
2020-10-09 22:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."

What something do you believe he was forced into?

And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."

What inside information, and where is he getting it from?

Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?

Mark
John Corbett
2020-10-10 01:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
This is along the lines of the Paul McCartney death hoax of the late
1960s. I'm going from memory but wasn't the story that if you played one
of the Beatles albums backwards, you would hear John Lennon say, "I buried
Paul.".
19efppp
2020-10-11 00:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
This is along the lines of the Paul McCartney death hoax of the late
1960s. I'm going from memory but wasn't the story that if you played one
of the Beatles albums backwards, you would hear John Lennon say, "I buried
Paul.".
No. You've got that wrong, too.
Mark
2020-10-11 00:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
This is along the lines of the Paul McCartney death hoax of the late
1960s. I'm going from memory but wasn't the story that if you played one
of the Beatles albums backwards, you would hear John Lennon say, "I buried
Paul.".
Your memory is correct. BTW, I read "somewhere" years back that Dylan was
supportive of Barry Goldwater in '64. Goldwater was certainly more
anti-establishment than LBJ ever thought about being.
("Anti-establishment" -- there's an oldie but goodie.) Mark
John Corbett
2020-10-12 03:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by John Corbett
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
This is along the lines of the Paul McCartney death hoax of the late
1960s. I'm going from memory but wasn't the story that if you played one
of the Beatles albums backwards, you would hear John Lennon say, "I buried
Paul.".
Your memory is correct. BTW, I read "somewhere" years back that Dylan was
supportive of Barry Goldwater in '64. Goldwater was certainly more
anti-establishment than LBJ ever thought about being.
("Anti-establishment" -- there's an oldie but goodie.) Mark
I'm surprised to hear Dylan was a Goldwater supporter. I think he recorded
a satirical song in which one of the lines was, "If you think I'd let
Barry Goldwater move next door or marry my daughter, you must think I'm
crazy".

I did a bit more research on this and found this article:

http://fictionaut.com/stories/con-chapman/bob-dylan-republican-party-animal

It suggests Dylan endorsed Goldwater because he would have been the first
Jewish president. I can't imagine that had much common ground on political
issues.
Pamela Brown
2020-10-11 03:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
This is along the lines of the Paul McCartney death hoax of the late
1960s. I'm going from memory but wasn't the story that if you played one
of the Beatles albums backwards, you would hear John Lennon say, "I buried
Paul.".
I don't think so. That was a rumour from an unnamed source. This is a
hypothesis being tested by a named source. BTW, there is an interesting
essay on the evolution of the "Paul is Dead" theory in CAR CRASH CULTURE,
Palgrave/Macmillan, called "Why Don't we Make Believe it Happened in the
Road?" by Jerry Glover. That book also happens to contain my original
essay "SS100X" which I have since updated and released in an ebook...

Pamela
ss100x.com
Pamela Brown
2020-10-11 00:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
I said I think he may have been roped into something.
Post by Mark
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
He has written a few songs referencing events before they happened.
Post by Mark
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Dylan performed A Hard Rain's A-gonna Fall one month before the Cuban
Missile Crisis. In his liner notes he backtracked and claimed the CMC was
the reason for the song. Just odd coincidences lik that...
Post by Mark
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
Lots of water here, and it's ok. But Dylan is everywhere in Minnesota.
Like air...

Odd, Dylan mentioned 'mercury mouth' in The Sad Lady of the Lowlands...
Post by Mark
Mark
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
19efppp
2020-10-12 00:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
I said I think he may have been roped into something.
Post by Mark
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
He has written a few songs referencing events before they happened.
Post by Mark
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Dylan performed A Hard Rain's A-gonna Fall one month before the Cuban
Missile Crisis. In his liner notes he backtracked and claimed the CMC was
the reason for the song. Just odd coincidences lik that...
Post by Mark
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
Lots of water here, and it's ok. But Dylan is everywhere in Minnesota.
Like air...
Odd, Dylan mentioned 'mercury mouth' in The Sad Lady of the Lowlands...
Post by Mark
Mark
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
Sounds more like he had knowledge of events *after* they happened. I don't
even know this Hard Rain song. Just listened to it. Certainly not
Mockingbird material. Dylan may have retroactively credited the Cuban
Missile Crisis for inspiring this song, but I don't think the song is
predictive of it. It might just as well be predicting that Willard Scott
will slip on a banana peel.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-10-12 00:33:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
I said I think he may have been roped into something.
Post by Mark
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
He has written a few songs referencing events before they happened.
Post by Mark
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Dylan performed A Hard Rain's A-gonna Fall one month before the Cuban
Missile Crisis. In his liner notes he backtracked and claimed the CMC was
the reason for the song. Just odd coincidences lik that...
Do you understand what the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is?
Apparently not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
== quote ==

Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because correlation appears to
suggest causality. The fallacy lies in a conclusion based solely on the
order of events, rather than taking into account other factors potentially
responsible for the result that might rule out the connection.

== unquote ==

Your assumption is Dylan was writing about the Cuban Missile Crisis in
"Hard Rain", but there was a fear of nuclear war since the Soviet Union
got that spy ring to help deliver the A-Bomb's secrets. You know, the same
spy ring that Oswald attributed reading about that led to his conversion
to socialism.

Fallout shelters were big before the Cuban Missile Crisis, radioactive
fallout was a concern before the CMC, and your error is attributing the
Hard Rain song to any specific knowledge of the CMC in advance of the CMC.
It also lies in assuming a hard rain is a radioactive rain, something
Dylan specifically said was untrue in a 1963 interview:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Rain%27s_a-Gonna_Fall#:~:text=%22A%20Hard%20Rain's%20a%2DGonna%20Fall%22%20is%20a%20song,such%20as%20%22Lord%20Randall%22.

== quote ==

No, it's not atomic rain, it's just a hard rain. It isn't the fallout
rain. I mean some sort of end that's just gotta happen ... In the last
verse, when I say, "the pellets of poison are flooding the waters," that
means all the lies that people get told on their radios and in their
newspapers.[11]

== unquote ==

Quite simply, you're assuming everything and proving nothing.

Hank
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Mark
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
Lots of water here, and it's ok. But Dylan is everywhere in Minnesota.
Like air...
Odd, Dylan mentioned 'mercury mouth' in The Sad Lady of the Lowlands...
SMH.

Different meaning to the word "Mercury" there. THer Roman god Mercury was
the messenger god, and one of his attributes was speed. The planet Mercury
is the fastest in orbit, and it's named after the Roman god for that
reason. Because mercury (the metal) is liquid at room temperature, it
flows quite easily (have you ever tried to pick any up that spilled onto
the floor?). The metal is named after the god Mercury for the same reason
the planet is. Another word for the metal mercury is "quicksilver". And
because of all that, when Dylan uses the phrase "mercury mouth", he's
saying "fast talking". He's not talking about someone who ingested the
toxic metal.

Hank
Pamela Brown
2020-10-13 02:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
I said I think he may have been roped into something.
Post by Mark
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
He has written a few songs referencing events before they happened.
Post by Mark
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Dylan performed A Hard Rain's A-gonna Fall one month before the Cuban
Missile Crisis. In his liner notes he backtracked and claimed the CMC was
the reason for the song. Just odd coincidences lik that...
Do you understand what the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is?
Apparently not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
== quote ==
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because correlation appears to
suggest causality. The fallacy lies in a conclusion based solely on the
order of events, rather than taking into account other factors potentially
responsible for the result that might rule out the connection.
== unquote ==
Your assumption is Dylan was writing about the Cuban Missile Crisis in
"Hard Rain", but there was a fear of nuclear war since the Soviet Union
got that spy ring to help deliver the A-Bomb's secrets. You know, the same
spy ring that Oswald attributed reading about that led to his conversion
to socialism.
Fallout shelters were big before the Cuban Missile Crisis, radioactive
fallout was a concern before the CMC, and your error is attributing the
Hard Rain song to any specific knowledge of the CMC in advance of the CMC.
It also lies in assuming a hard rain is a radioactive rain, something
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Rain%27s_a-Gonna_Fall#:~:text=%22A%2
0Hard%20Rain's%20a%2DGonna%20Fall%22%20is%20a%20song,such%20as%20%22Lord%20
Randall%22.
== quote ==
No, it's not atomic rain, it's just a hard rain. It isn't the fallout
rain. I mean some sort of end that's just gotta happen ... In the last
verse, when I say, "the pellets of poison are flooding the waters," that
means all the lies that people get told on their radios and in their
newspapers.[11]
== unquote ==
Quite simply, you're assuming everything and proving nothing.
Hank
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Mark
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
Lots of water here, and it's ok. But Dylan is everywhere in Minnesota.
Like air...
Odd, Dylan mentioned 'mercury mouth' in The Sad Lady of the Lowlands...
SMH.
Different meaning to the word "Mercury" there. THer Roman god Mercury was
the messenger god, and one of his attributes was speed. The planet Mercury
is the fastest in orbit, and it's named after the Roman god for that
reason. Because mercury (the metal) is liquid at room temperature, it
flows quite easily (have you ever tried to pick any up that spilled onto
the floor?). The metal is named after the god Mercury for the same reason
the planet is. Another word for the metal mercury is "quicksilver". And
because of all that, when Dylan uses the phrase "mercury mouth", he's
saying "fast talking". He's not talking about someone who ingested the
toxic metal.
Hank
Have you heard of the Strawman argument? That seems to be what you have
created. My point is that Dylan performed A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall one
month before the CMC, but then, in the liner notes to Freewheelin Bob
Dylan tried to cover his tracks by saying the song was in response to the
CMC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Rain%27s_a-Gonna_Fall

Pamela

https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-10-13 13:25:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
I said I think he may have been roped into something.
Post by Mark
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
He has written a few songs referencing events before they happened.
Post by Mark
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Dylan performed A Hard Rain's A-gonna Fall one month before the Cuban
Missile Crisis. In his liner notes he backtracked and claimed the CMC was
the reason for the song. Just odd coincidences lik that...
Do you understand what the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is?
Apparently not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
== quote ==
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because correlation appears to
suggest causality. The fallacy lies in a conclusion based solely on the
order of events, rather than taking into account other factors potentially
responsible for the result that might rule out the connection.
== unquote ==
Your assumption is Dylan was writing about the Cuban Missile Crisis in
"Hard Rain", but there was a fear of nuclear war since the Soviet Union
got that spy ring to help deliver the A-Bomb's secrets. You know, the same
spy ring that Oswald attributed reading about that led to his conversion
to socialism.
Fallout shelters were big before the Cuban Missile Crisis, radioactive
fallout was a concern before the CMC, and your error is attributing the
Hard Rain song to any specific knowledge of the CMC in advance of the CMC.
It also lies in assuming a hard rain is a radioactive rain, something
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Rain%27s_a-Gonna_Fall#:~:text=%22A%2
0Hard%20Rain's%20a%2DGonna%20Fall%22%20is%20a%20song,such%20as%20%22Lord%20
Randall%22.
== quote ==
No, it's not atomic rain, it's just a hard rain. It isn't the fallout
rain. I mean some sort of end that's just gotta happen ... In the last
verse, when I say, "the pellets of poison are flooding the waters," that
means all the lies that people get told on their radios and in their
newspapers.[11]
== unquote ==
Quite simply, you're assuming everything and proving nothing.
Hank
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Mark
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
Lots of water here, and it's ok. But Dylan is everywhere in Minnesota.
Like air...
Odd, Dylan mentioned 'mercury mouth' in The Sad Lady of the Lowlands...
SMH.
Different meaning to the word "Mercury" there. THer Roman god Mercury was
the messenger god, and one of his attributes was speed. The planet Mercury
is the fastest in orbit, and it's named after the Roman god for that
reason. Because mercury (the metal) is liquid at room temperature, it
flows quite easily (have you ever tried to pick any up that spilled onto
the floor?). The metal is named after the god Mercury for the same reason
the planet is. Another word for the metal mercury is "quicksilver". And
because of all that, when Dylan uses the phrase "mercury mouth", he's
saying "fast talking". He's not talking about someone who ingested the
toxic metal.
Hank
Have you heard of the Strawman argument? That seems to be what you have
created. My point is that Dylan performed A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall one
month before the CMC, but then, in the liner notes to Freewheelin Bob
Dylan tried to cover his tracks by saying the song was in response to the
CMC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Rain%27s_a-Gonna_Fall
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
I understood your argument the first time and rebutted it above.
I understand your argument still and I now rebut it again:

Have you heard of Begging the Question? That is exactly what you're doing.

You're assuming Hard Rain is about the Cuban Missile Crisis, although you
note Dylan performed it a month before that, and I pointed out Dylan said
Hard Rain wasn't about radioactive fallout. You're assuming Bob was lying,
and assuming because he said he wrote Hard Rain in response to CMC, that
was a deliberate lie instead of simply a failure of memory. Then you're
assuming he wrote that lie to "cover his tracks" and presumably, hide his
advance knowledge of the CMC he obtained from the CIA.

In other words, you're assuming everything you need to prove and imbedding
in your argument those things you need to prove as facts.

That's the logical fallacy of Begging the Question.

Good luck spinning your wheels with that.

Hank
Pamela Brown
2020-10-26 16:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You see Bob Dylan as being "especially vulnerable to having been roped
into something."
What something do you believe he was forced into?
I said I think he may have been roped into something.
Post by Mark
And: "I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate those for which
he may been given inside information."
He has written a few songs referencing events before they happened.
Post by Mark
What inside information, and where is he getting it from?
Dylan performed A Hard Rain's A-gonna Fall one month before the Cuban
Missile Crisis. In his liner notes he backtracked and claimed the CMC was
the reason for the song. Just odd coincidences lik that...
Do you understand what the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is?
Apparently not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
== quote ==
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because correlation appears to
suggest causality. The fallacy lies in a conclusion based solely on the
order of events, rather than taking into account other factors potentially
responsible for the result that might rule out the connection.
== unquote ==
Your assumption is Dylan was writing about the Cuban Missile Crisis in
"Hard Rain", but there was a fear of nuclear war since the Soviet Union
got that spy ring to help deliver the A-Bomb's secrets. You know, the same
spy ring that Oswald attributed reading about that led to his conversion
to socialism.
Fallout shelters were big before the Cuban Missile Crisis, radioactive
fallout was a concern before the CMC, and your error is attributing the
Hard Rain song to any specific knowledge of the CMC in advance of the CMC.
It also lies in assuming a hard rain is a radioactive rain, something
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Rain%27s_a-Gonna_Fall#:~:text=%22A%2
0Hard%20Rain's%20a%2DGonna%20Fall%22%20is%20a%20song,such%20as%20%22Lord%20
Randall%22.
== quote ==
No, it's not atomic rain, it's just a hard rain. It isn't the fallout
rain. I mean some sort of end that's just gotta happen ... In the last
verse, when I say, "the pellets of poison are flooding the waters," that
means all the lies that people get told on their radios and in their
newspapers.[11]
== unquote ==
Quite simply, you're assuming everything and proving nothing.
Hank
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Mark
Up there in Minnesota, Pamela, is your drinking water free of Mercury?
Lots of water here, and it's ok. But Dylan is everywhere in Minnesota.
Like air...
Odd, Dylan mentioned 'mercury mouth' in The Sad Lady of the Lowlands...
SMH.
Different meaning to the word "Mercury" there. THer Roman god Mercury was
the messenger god, and one of his attributes was speed. The planet Mercury
is the fastest in orbit, and it's named after the Roman god for that
reason. Because mercury (the metal) is liquid at room temperature, it
flows quite easily (have you ever tried to pick any up that spilled onto
the floor?). The metal is named after the god Mercury for the same reason
the planet is. Another word for the metal mercury is "quicksilver". And
because of all that, when Dylan uses the phrase "mercury mouth", he's
saying "fast talking". He's not talking about someone who ingested the
toxic metal.
Hank
Have you heard of the Strawman argument? That seems to be what you have
created. My point is that Dylan performed A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall one
month before the CMC, but then, in the liner notes to Freewheelin Bob
Dylan tried to cover his tracks by saying the song was in response to the
CMC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Rain%27s_a-Gonna_Fall
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
I understood your argument the first time and rebutted it above.
Have you heard of Begging the Question? That is exactly what you're doing.
You're assuming Hard Rain is about the Cuban Missile Crisis, although you
note Dylan performed it a month before that, and I pointed out Dylan said
Hard Rain wasn't about radioactive fallout. You're assuming Bob was lying,
and assuming because he said he wrote Hard Rain in response to CMC, that
was a deliberate lie instead of simply a failure of memory. Then you're
assuming he wrote that lie to "cover his tracks" and presumably, hide his
advance knowledge of the CMC he obtained from the CIA.
In other words, you're assuming everything you need to prove and imbedding
in your argument those things you need to prove as facts.
That's the logical fallacy of Begging the Question.
Good luck spinning your wheels with that.
Hank
In the liner notes for The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan it says 'It was written
during the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962...'
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-10-10 01:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman

A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).

Seriously.

Good luck with your theory.

I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.

Hank
Mark
2020-10-11 00:47:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-10-12 00:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.

What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/

JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.

Pamela
Mark
2020-10-13 11:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
about about JFK and NASA, and it's pretty good:

https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1

Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
Kennedy WH years:

https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo

Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.

Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-10-13 23:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
I think this might help you understand what I am saying:

https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/

Pamela
Mark
2020-10-15 22:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-10-23 00:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.

I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.

Pamela
John Corbett
2020-10-24 04:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
Pamela Brown
2020-10-26 13:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.

Pamela
Mark
2020-10-27 20:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.
Pamela
Okay. I'll take your word for that. What does that have to do with JFK's death? Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-10-28 19:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.
Pamela
Okay. I'll take your word for that. What does that have to do with JFK's death? Mark
Let me attempt to clarify this for you.

If you were an advocate of Pres. Eisenhower and his military men and you
had to deal with a president whose chief objective was to get Wernher Von
Braun's team back together to go to the moon and Mars, who refused to
listen to any of your orders and instead back-channeled to the Russians on
all matters of significance, what would you do?

Pamela
John Corbett
2020-10-27 20:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.
I seriously doubt very many Germans would have opted for the USSR over the
USA. I would bet that most of those who went to the USSR did so at
gunpoint. It was known as Operation Osoaviakhim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim

WVB and his entourage actively sought out the American Army to surrender
to rather than risk capture by the Soviets. After his surrender, WVB made
the following statement to the press:

"We knew that we had created a new means of warfare, and the question as
to what nation, to what victorious nation we were willing to entrust this
brain child of ours was a moral decision more than anything else. We
wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just
been through, and we felt that only by surrendering such a weapon to
people who are guided not by the laws of materialism but by Christianity
and humanity could such an assurance to the world be best secured."
Pamela Brown
2020-10-28 19:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.
I seriously doubt very many Germans would have opted for the USSR over the
USA. I would bet that most of those who went to the USSR did so at
gunpoint. It was known as Operation Osoaviakhim.
Many of the physicists were from Eastern Germany, so some may have felt
comfortable going to USSR. I have no doubt they were promised generous
perks.

There certainly could have been bargaining, however, and my understanding
of the process may be somewhat superficial, as I am just repeating what I
was told.

One way or another, physicists of great acumen ended up in USSR.
Post by John Corbett
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
WVB and his entourage actively sought out the American Army to surrender
to rather than risk capture by the Soviets.
He did do that. I think he realized that he would have enormous clout in
the US, which he did, until the moon landing. After that, he became
persona non grata and was kicked out of NASA.

After his surrender, WVB made
Post by John Corbett
"We knew that we had created a new means of warfare, and the question as
to what nation, to what victorious nation we were willing to entrust this
brain child of ours was a moral decision more than anything else. We
wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just
been through, and we felt that only by surrendering such a weapon to
people who are guided not by the laws of materialism but by Christianity
and humanity could such an assurance to the world be best secured."
John Corbett
2020-10-29 19:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.
I seriously doubt very many Germans would have opted for the USSR over the
USA. I would bet that most of those who went to the USSR did so at
gunpoint. It was known as Operation Osoaviakhim.
Many of the physicists were from Eastern Germany, so some may have felt
comfortable going to USSR.
There was no East and West Germany at the end of WWII. The chief Allied powers agreed to section Germany into four occupation zones presided over by the US, UK, France and the USSR. It wasn't until 1949 that the separate states of East and West Germany emerged. By that time, all those German rocketeers would have either gone to the US or the USSR. It makes no sense that scientists from eastern Germany would have felt any loyalty to the USSR. If anything, they would have had more reason to hate and fear the Soviets.
Post by Pamela Brown
I have no doubt they were promised generous perks.
Generous perks? Like, "If you come with us, we won't put you in front of a firing squad.". If I was offered a perk like that, I would jump at the opportunity.
Post by Pamela Brown
There certainly could have been bargaining, however, and my understanding
of the process may be somewhat superficial, as I am just repeating what I
was told.
You might want to seek out other sources.
Post by Pamela Brown
One way or another, physicists of great acumen ended up in USSR.
Yes they did but we got the top dog.
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
WVB and his entourage actively sought out the American Army to surrender
to rather than risk capture by the Soviets.
He did do that. I think he realized that he would have enormous clout in
the US, which he did, until the moon landing. After that, he became
persona non grata and was kicked out of NASA.
Not exactly (Damn. That sounds like Marsh). After the first moon landing, he was reassigned to an administrative post in Washington. He clashed with his superiors over the direction of the Apollo program when it became evident to him that it was being de-emphasized after we had beaten the Soviets to the moon. WVB had much bigger dreams. He wanted to see his Saturn V rocket used as the vehicle to send men to Mars which he believed could be done during the 1980s. When he realized that wasn't in the cards, he retired from NASA.

As a side note, WVB was not the only one who thought the moon landings were just stepping stones to bigger and better things. Much of the public believed that space tourism would become commonplace in the coming decades and that ordinary citizens would be able to travel to the moon and beyond. Pan-American Airlines actually was taking reservations for the first tourist flights to the moon which they expected would commence within twenty years. It was probably just a publicity stunt but a lot of people bought in. At one point, over 90,000 people had made reservations. Of course Pan-American no longer exists.

Back in the earlier 1970s, I don't think very many people believed that almost 50 years later we would not return to the the moon and go beyond. Mars was the next logical step but the decision was made to use robots to explore the solar system. It does make sense because safety can be de-emphasized when there is only machinery being put at risk. When human lives are at stake, there have to be back up systems and back up systems to back up systems. That greatly increases the cost of space exploration. From a practical standpoint, robotic exploration makes much more sense but it lacks the grandeur of manned space flight. How excited would the American people have been if we had put a robot on the moon and returned it to the earth before the Soviets? I doubt there has been a moment in our history when the entire country was as united as we were when Neil Armstrong took that one small step.
Pamela Brown
2020-10-31 17:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.
I seriously doubt very many Germans would have opted for the USSR over the
USA. I would bet that most of those who went to the USSR did so at
gunpoint. It was known as Operation Osoaviakhim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
WVB and his entourage actively sought out the American Army to surrender
to rather than risk capture by the Soviets. After his surrender, WVB made
"We knew that we had created a new means of warfare, and the question as
to what nation, to what victorious nation we were willing to entrust this
brain child of ours was a moral decision more than anything else. We
wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just
been through, and we felt that only by surrendering such a weapon to
people who are guided not by the laws of materialism but by Christianity
and humanity could such an assurance to the world be best secured."
Von Braun's US team was already at Ft. Bliss when this operation took
place. Those who were involved were specialists by and large and may not
have worked at the elite level that these 'rocket team' scientists did.

http://heroicrelics.org/info/rocket-team/team-at-fort-bliss.html#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20officially%20authorized%20118,about%2055%20each%20by%20ship.
John Corbett
2020-11-01 21:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.
I seriously doubt very many Germans would have opted for the USSR over the
USA. I would bet that most of those who went to the USSR did so at
gunpoint. It was known as Operation Osoaviakhim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
WVB and his entourage actively sought out the American Army to surrender
to rather than risk capture by the Soviets. After his surrender, WVB made
"We knew that we had created a new means of warfare, and the question as
to what nation, to what victorious nation we were willing to entrust this
brain child of ours was a moral decision more than anything else. We
wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just
been through, and we felt that only by surrendering such a weapon to
people who are guided not by the laws of materialism but by Christianity
and humanity could such an assurance to the world be best secured."
Von Braun's US team was already at Ft. Bliss when this operation took
place. Those who were involved were specialists by and large and may not
have worked at the elite level that these 'rocket team' scientists did.
http://heroicrelics.org/info/rocket-team/team-at-fort-bliss.html#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20officially%20authorized%20118,about%2055%20each%20by%20ship.
Doesn't change the fact that the ones who went with the Soviets did so at
gunpoint. The German people as a whole feared the Soviets because of the
threat of retribution. Most knew they would get better treatment from the
Western Allies. I'm sure they would much rather have seen George Patton
take Berlin rather than the Red Army.
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-06 02:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.
I seriously doubt very many Germans would have opted for the USSR over the
USA. I would bet that most of those who went to the USSR did so at
gunpoint. It was known as Operation Osoaviakhim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
WVB and his entourage actively sought out the American Army to surrender
to rather than risk capture by the Soviets. After his surrender, WVB made
"We knew that we had created a new means of warfare, and the question as
to what nation, to what victorious nation we were willing to entrust this
brain child of ours was a moral decision more than anything else. We
wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just
been through, and we felt that only by surrendering such a weapon to
people who are guided not by the laws of materialism but by Christianity
and humanity could such an assurance to the world be best secured."
Von Braun's US team was already at Ft. Bliss when this operation took
place. Those who were involved were specialists by and large and may not
have worked at the elite level that these 'rocket team' scientists did.
http://heroicrelics.org/info/rocket-team/team-at-fort-bliss.html#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20officially%20authorized%20118,about%2055%20each%20by%20ship.
Doesn't change the fact that the ones who went with the Soviets did so at
gunpoint. The German people as a whole feared the Soviets because of the
False. They had to cross lines to go seek out the Russians.
Post by John Corbett
threat of retribution. Most knew they would get better treatment from the
Western Allies. I'm sure they would much rather have seen George Patton
take Berlin rather than the Red Army.
Yes, and just as valuable.
Pamela Brown
2020-11-07 01:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I grew up becoming involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with
Wernher Von Braun. I knew all about what is called 'Operation Paperclip'
because I experienced it, and could not understand how this could be
happening. This was prior to the assassination of JFK and prior to the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
Operation Paperclip was a necessity because both the US and USSR realized
the missile technology developed by the Nazi regime would be vital to
future military preparedness. The USSR actually got more of these German
scientists and technicians but fortunately we landed the Big Kahuna in
Wernher Von Braun. We couldn't afford to treat those people as war
criminals because we needed them so we would not fall behind the Soviets
in missile development.
It is my understanding that WVB let them choose whether to come to the US
or go to the USSR. That was the case with the family I was involved with.
I seriously doubt very many Germans would have opted for the USSR over the
USA. I would bet that most of those who went to the USSR did so at
gunpoint. It was known as Operation Osoaviakhim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
WVB and his entourage actively sought out the American Army to surrender
to rather than risk capture by the Soviets. After his surrender, WVB made
"We knew that we had created a new means of warfare, and the question as
to what nation, to what victorious nation we were willing to entrust this
brain child of ours was a moral decision more than anything else. We
wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just
been through, and we felt that only by surrendering such a weapon to
people who are guided not by the laws of materialism but by Christianity
and humanity could such an assurance to the world be best secured."
Von Braun's US team was already at Ft. Bliss when this operation took
place. Those who were involved were specialists by and large and may not
have worked at the elite level that these 'rocket team' scientists did.
http://heroicrelics.org/info/rocket-team/team-at-fort-bliss.html#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20officially%20authorized%20118,about%2055%20each%20by%20ship.
Doesn't change the fact that the ones who went with the Soviets did so at
gunpoint. The German people as a whole feared the Soviets because of the
False. They had to cross lines to go seek out the Russians.
Post by John Corbett
threat of retribution. Most knew they would get better treatment from the
Western Allies. I'm sure they would much rather have seen George Patton
take Berlin rather than the Red Army.
Yes, and just as valuable.
Nordhausen and Peenemunde, Mittleworks -- all the physical capabilities of
the Nazis-- remained in Germany at the end of WWII. Ultimately, this area
became part of the DDR and everything was moved to Russia. How powerful
an incentive was that for some of the physicists to choose to stay? (If
they did choose. These Nazi's I knew were not forthcoming in any area, so
I do not anticipate that they told me the truth about what happened to
those who 'chose' to go to Russia.)

Pamela
Mark
2020-10-29 02:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-10-29 19:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?

Pamela
John Corbett
2020-10-30 00:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
Pamela Brown
2020-11-01 03:39:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
You seem to be assuming that I do not have the ability to weigh and
evaluate what I was told. As you will discover, that is a false
assumption. At least I have experience with one family. How about you?

Pamela
John Corbett
2020-11-01 21:28:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
You seem to be assuming that I do not have the ability to weigh and
evaluate what I was told. As you will discover, that is a false
assumption. At least I have experience with one family. How about you?
The fact I don't have your perspective allows me to look at the big
picture. I can base my judgements on the historical perspective. Your
experience with that one family should not outweigh what the record
historical record tells us. We were able to get the top people from
Germany's V-2 rocket program, many of whom were Nazis. The "V" in V-2
stood for vengeance which is what the rockets were used for. They were not
fired at military targets but at civilians. There purpose was solely for
terror, not military advantage. Those rocket scientists could have been
tried for war crimes but that would not have been in our country's
interest so we were willing to give them a pass on what they did in during
WWII to advance our own capabilities. The US had it's own questionable
targeting practices such as the firebombing of cities like Dresden and
Tokyo. There were military targets in Dresden but they were away from the
city center where the first and largest raid targeted. The decision to use
incendiary bombs rather than fragmentation bombs against Tokyo resulted in
a firestorm that killed about 100,000 civilians. Robert McNamara served
under Curtis LeMay at the time and both agreed that had the US lost the
war, they would have been tried as war criminals. It is understandable
that we would be willing to forgive the Germans who worked on the V-2
program due to some of our own questionable decisions.
Pamela Brown
2020-11-02 18:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
You seem to be assuming that I do not have the ability to weigh and
evaluate what I was told. As you will discover, that is a false
assumption. At least I have experience with one family. How about you?
The fact I don't have your perspective allows me to look at the big
picture. I can base my judgements on the historical perspective. Your
experience with that one family should not outweigh what the record
historical record tells us. We were able to get the top people from
Germany's V-2 rocket program, many of whom were Nazis. The "V" in V-2
stood for vengeance which is what the rockets were used for. They were not
fired at military targets but at civilians. There purpose was solely for
terror, not military advantage. Those rocket scientists could have been
tried for war crimes but that would not have been in our country's
interest so we were willing to give them a pass on what they did in during
WWII to advance our own capabilities. The US had it's own questionable
targeting practices such as the firebombing of cities like Dresden and
Tokyo. There were military targets in Dresden but they were away from the
city center where the first and largest raid targeted. The decision to use
incendiary bombs rather than fragmentation bombs against Tokyo resulted in
a firestorm that killed about 100,000 civilians. Robert McNamara served
under Curtis LeMay at the time and both agreed that had the US lost the
war, they would have been tried as war criminals. It is understandable
that we would be willing to forgive the Germans who worked on the V-2
program due to some of our own questionable decisions.
With all due respect, you appear to be confusing perspective with
position. It is possible to take any position and develop an hypothesis
which can then be tested. Your underlying position appears to be that the
US is good and USSR is bad. But as a result,, you seem to have to make
excuses for the actions of the US.


Pamela
John Corbett
2020-11-03 03:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
You seem to be assuming that I do not have the ability to weigh and
evaluate what I was told. As you will discover, that is a false
assumption. At least I have experience with one family. How about you?
The fact I don't have your perspective allows me to look at the big
picture. I can base my judgements on the historical perspective. Your
experience with that one family should not outweigh what the record
historical record tells us. We were able to get the top people from
Germany's V-2 rocket program, many of whom were Nazis. The "V" in V-2
stood for vengeance which is what the rockets were used for. They were not
fired at military targets but at civilians. There purpose was solely for
terror, not military advantage. Those rocket scientists could have been
tried for war crimes but that would not have been in our country's
interest so we were willing to give them a pass on what they did in during
WWII to advance our own capabilities. The US had it's own questionable
targeting practices such as the firebombing of cities like Dresden and
Tokyo. There were military targets in Dresden but they were away from the
city center where the first and largest raid targeted. The decision to use
incendiary bombs rather than fragmentation bombs against Tokyo resulted in
a firestorm that killed about 100,000 civilians. Robert McNamara served
under Curtis LeMay at the time and both agreed that had the US lost the
war, they would have been tried as war criminals. It is understandable
that we would be willing to forgive the Germans who worked on the V-2
program due to some of our own questionable decisions.
With all due respect, you appear to be confusing perspective with
position. It is possible to take any position and develop an hypothesis
which can then be tested. Your underlying position appears to be that the
US is good and USSR is bad. But as a result,, you seem to have to make
excuses for the actions of the US.
If you read what I just wrote you would know I don't say everything the US
=does is automatically good. The firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo were of
little military value yet caused massive loss of civilian life. We chose
massive incendiary bombing of those cities over precision bombing of the
military targets with fragmentation bombing. Having said that, I see no
problem with the US decision to bring Nazi rocket scientists and
technicians to our country to advance our own missile technology because
it was in our national interest to do so. It was clear in the immediate
aftermath of WWII that the Soviet Union was going to be our main adversary
and we couldn't afford to fall behind them in missile technology,
especially after they developed nuclear weapons. Throughout our history
we've had to work with some very unsavory characters in order to help
defeat even more unsavory people. We allied with Stalin to defeat Hitler.
More recently we worked indirectly with Osama Bin Laden when he was
fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and we worked with Saddam Hussein when
Iran was our primary foe in the Middle East. I have no problem with giving
the German rocket personnel a pass on what they did in WWII because we
needed them to prevent WWIII.
Pamela Brown
2020-11-04 02:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
You seem to be assuming that I do not have the ability to weigh and
evaluate what I was told. As you will discover, that is a false
assumption. At least I have experience with one family. How about you?
The fact I don't have your perspective allows me to look at the big
picture. I can base my judgements on the historical perspective. Your
experience with that one family should not outweigh what the record
historical record tells us. We were able to get the top people from
Germany's V-2 rocket program, many of whom were Nazis. The "V" in V-2
stood for vengeance which is what the rockets were used for. They were not
fired at military targets but at civilians. There purpose was solely for
terror, not military advantage. Those rocket scientists could have been
tried for war crimes but that would not have been in our country's
interest so we were willing to give them a pass on what they did in during
WWII to advance our own capabilities. The US had it's own questionable
targeting practices such as the firebombing of cities like Dresden and
Tokyo. There were military targets in Dresden but they were away from the
city center where the first and largest raid targeted. The decision to use
incendiary bombs rather than fragmentation bombs against Tokyo resulted in
a firestorm that killed about 100,000 civilians. Robert McNamara served
under Curtis LeMay at the time and both agreed that had the US lost the
war, they would have been tried as war criminals. It is understandable
that we would be willing to forgive the Germans who worked on the V-2
program due to some of our own questionable decisions.
With all due respect, you appear to be confusing perspective with
position. It is possible to take any position and develop an hypothesis
which can then be tested. Your underlying position appears to be that the
US is good and USSR is bad. But as a result,, you seem to have to make
excuses for the actions of the US.
If you read what I just wrote you would know I don't say everything the US
does is automatically good. The firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo were of
little military value yet caused massive loss of civilian life. We chose
massive incendiary bombing of those cities over precision bombing of the
military targets with fragmentation bombing. Having said that, I see no
problem with the US decision to bring Nazi rocket scientists and
technicians to our country to advance our own missile technology because
it was in our national interest to do so. It was clear in the immediate
aftermath of WWII that the Soviet Union was going to be our main adversary
and we couldn't afford to fall behind them in missile technology,
especially after they developed nuclear weapons. Throughout our history
we've had to work with some very unsavory characters in order to help
defeat even more unsavory people. We allied with Stalin to defeat Hitler.
More recently we worked indirectly with Osama Bin Laden when he was
fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and we worked with Saddam Hussein when
Iran was our primary foe in the Middle East. I have no problem with giving
the German rocket personnel a pass on what they did in WWII because we
needed them to prevent WWIII.
I tend to disagree with the blanket statement that the US perceived USSR
as an adversary in the 'immediate aftermath' of WWII. USSR had been
perceived as an ally of the US during WWII.

Your position leaves the door open for Wernher Von Braun to have knowingly
betrayed the physicists who went to the USSR in 1945. Do you have any
evidence of that?

Pamela
John Corbett
2020-11-06 02:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
You seem to be assuming that I do not have the ability to weigh and
evaluate what I was told. As you will discover, that is a false
assumption. At least I have experience with one family. How about you?
The fact I don't have your perspective allows me to look at the big
picture. I can base my judgements on the historical perspective. Your
experience with that one family should not outweigh what the record
historical record tells us. We were able to get the top people from
Germany's V-2 rocket program, many of whom were Nazis. The "V" in V-2
stood for vengeance which is what the rockets were used for. They were not
fired at military targets but at civilians. There purpose was solely for
terror, not military advantage. Those rocket scientists could have been
tried for war crimes but that would not have been in our country's
interest so we were willing to give them a pass on what they did in during
WWII to advance our own capabilities. The US had it's own questionable
targeting practices such as the firebombing of cities like Dresden and
Tokyo. There were military targets in Dresden but they were away from the
city center where the first and largest raid targeted. The decision to use
incendiary bombs rather than fragmentation bombs against Tokyo resulted in
a firestorm that killed about 100,000 civilians. Robert McNamara served
under Curtis LeMay at the time and both agreed that had the US lost the
war, they would have been tried as war criminals. It is understandable
that we would be willing to forgive the Germans who worked on the V-2
program due to some of our own questionable decisions.
With all due respect, you appear to be confusing perspective with
position. It is possible to take any position and develop an hypothesis
which can then be tested. Your underlying position appears to be that the
US is good and USSR is bad. But as a result,, you seem to have to make
excuses for the actions of the US.
If you read what I just wrote you would know I don't say everything the US
does is automatically good. The firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo were of
little military value yet caused massive loss of civilian life. We chose
massive incendiary bombing of those cities over precision bombing of the
military targets with fragmentation bombing. Having said that, I see no
problem with the US decision to bring Nazi rocket scientists and
technicians to our country to advance our own missile technology because
it was in our national interest to do so. It was clear in the immediate
aftermath of WWII that the Soviet Union was going to be our main adversary
and we couldn't afford to fall behind them in missile technology,
especially after they developed nuclear weapons. Throughout our history
we've had to work with some very unsavory characters in order to help
defeat even more unsavory people. We allied with Stalin to defeat Hitler.
More recently we worked indirectly with Osama Bin Laden when he was
fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and we worked with Saddam Hussein when
Iran was our primary foe in the Middle East. I have no problem with giving
the German rocket personnel a pass on what they did in WWII because we
needed them to prevent WWIII.
I tend to disagree with the blanket statement that the US perceived USSR
as an adversary in the 'immediate aftermath' of WWII. USSR had been
perceived as an ally of the US during WWII.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend". The only thing that bound the US and
USSR was the need to defeat Nazi Germany. Once that was done, there was
nothing to hold them together.
Post by Pamela Brown
Your position leaves the door open for Wernher Von Braun to have knowingly
betrayed the physicists who went to the USSR in 1945. Do you have any
evidence of that?
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. How did WVB betray those physicists?
Pamela Brown
2020-11-07 00:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
You seem to be assuming that I do not have the ability to weigh and
evaluate what I was told. As you will discover, that is a false
assumption. At least I have experience with one family. How about you?
The fact I don't have your perspective allows me to look at the big
picture. I can base my judgements on the historical perspective. Your
experience with that one family should not outweigh what the record
historical record tells us. We were able to get the top people from
Germany's V-2 rocket program, many of whom were Nazis. The "V" in V-2
stood for vengeance which is what the rockets were used for. They were not
fired at military targets but at civilians. There purpose was solely for
terror, not military advantage. Those rocket scientists could have been
tried for war crimes but that would not have been in our country's
interest so we were willing to give them a pass on what they did in during
WWII to advance our own capabilities. The US had it's own questionable
targeting practices such as the firebombing of cities like Dresden and
Tokyo. There were military targets in Dresden but they were away from the
city center where the first and largest raid targeted. The decision to use
incendiary bombs rather than fragmentation bombs against Tokyo resulted in
a firestorm that killed about 100,000 civilians. Robert McNamara served
under Curtis LeMay at the time and both agreed that had the US lost the
war, they would have been tried as war criminals. It is understandable
that we would be willing to forgive the Germans who worked on the V-2
program due to some of our own questionable decisions.
With all due respect, you appear to be confusing perspective with
position. It is possible to take any position and develop an hypothesis
which can then be tested. Your underlying position appears to be that the
US is good and USSR is bad. But as a result,, you seem to have to make
excuses for the actions of the US.
If you read what I just wrote you would know I don't say everything the US
does is automatically good. The firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo were of
little military value yet caused massive loss of civilian life. We chose
massive incendiary bombing of those cities over precision bombing of the
military targets with fragmentation bombing. Having said that, I see no
problem with the US decision to bring Nazi rocket scientists and
technicians to our country to advance our own missile technology because
it was in our national interest to do so. It was clear in the immediate
aftermath of WWII that the Soviet Union was going to be our main adversary
and we couldn't afford to fall behind them in missile technology,
especially after they developed nuclear weapons. Throughout our history
we've had to work with some very unsavory characters in order to help
defeat even more unsavory people. We allied with Stalin to defeat Hitler.
More recently we worked indirectly with Osama Bin Laden when he was
fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and we worked with Saddam Hussein when
Iran was our primary foe in the Middle East. I have no problem with giving
the German rocket personnel a pass on what they did in WWII because we
needed them to prevent WWIII.
I tend to disagree with the blanket statement that the US perceived USSR
as an adversary in the 'immediate aftermath' of WWII. USSR had been
perceived as an ally of the US during WWII.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend". The only thing that bound the US and
USSR was the need to defeat Nazi Germany. Once that was done, there was
nothing to hold them together.
Post by Pamela Brown
Your position leaves the door open for Wernher Von Braun to have knowingly
betrayed the physicists who went to the USSR in 1945. Do you have any
evidence of that?
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. How did WVB betray those physicists?
By stating that you believe the USSR was perceived to be an adversary in
1945 you appear to open the door to the possibility that WVB deliberately
consigned the scientists who went to the USSR to a dire fate. Is that your
position?
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-07 00:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
You seem to be assuming that I do not have the ability to weigh and
evaluate what I was told. As you will discover, that is a false
assumption. At least I have experience with one family. How about you?
The fact I don't have your perspective allows me to look at the big
picture. I can base my judgements on the historical perspective. Your
experience with that one family should not outweigh what the record
historical record tells us. We were able to get the top people from
Germany's V-2 rocket program, many of whom were Nazis. The "V" in V-2
stood for vengeance which is what the rockets were used for. They were not
fired at military targets but at civilians. There purpose was solely for
terror, not military advantage. Those rocket scientists could have been
tried for war crimes but that would not have been in our country's
interest so we were willing to give them a pass on what they did in during
WWII to advance our own capabilities. The US had it's own questionable
targeting practices such as the firebombing of cities like Dresden and
Tokyo. There were military targets in Dresden but they were away from the
city center where the first and largest raid targeted. The decision to use
incendiary bombs rather than fragmentation bombs against Tokyo resulted in
a firestorm that killed about 100,000 civilians. Robert McNamara served
under Curtis LeMay at the time and both agreed that had the US lost the
war, they would have been tried as war criminals. It is understandable
that we would be willing to forgive the Germans who worked on the V-2
program due to some of our own questionable decisions.
With all due respect, you appear to be confusing perspective with
position. It is possible to take any position and develop an hypothesis
which can then be tested. Your underlying position appears to be that the
US is good and USSR is bad. But as a result,, you seem to have to make
excuses for the actions of the US.
If you read what I just wrote you would know I don't say everything the US
does is automatically good. The firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo were of
little military value yet caused massive loss of civilian life. We chose
massive incendiary bombing of those cities over precision bombing of the
military targets with fragmentation bombing. Having said that, I see no
problem with the US decision to bring Nazi rocket scientists and
technicians to our country to advance our own missile technology because
it was in our national interest to do so. It was clear in the immediate
aftermath of WWII that the Soviet Union was going to be our main adversary
and we couldn't afford to fall behind them in missile technology,
especially after they developed nuclear weapons. Throughout our history
we've had to work with some very unsavory characters in order to help
defeat even more unsavory people. We allied with Stalin to defeat Hitler.
More recently we worked indirectly with Osama Bin Laden when he was
fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and we worked with Saddam Hussein when
Iran was our primary foe in the Middle East. I have no problem with giving
the German rocket personnel a pass on what they did in WWII because we
needed them to prevent WWIII.
I tend to disagree with the blanket statement that the US perceived USSR
as an adversary in the 'immediate aftermath' of WWII. USSR had been
perceived as an ally of the US during WWII.
True to a certain exrent, but during the war Russia had no choice but to
ally with the West if it wanted to defeat Germany. After the war they
wanted to carve up territory to be equal with the West.
Post by Pamela Brown
Your position leaves the door open for Wernher Von Braun to have knowingly
betrayed the physicists who went to the USSR in 1945. Do you have any
evidence of that?
Pamela
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-06 02:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Your perspective is anecdotal. Interaction with one family only gives you
insight into that one family and my actually distort your view of the
bigger picture.
You seem to be assuming that I do not have the ability to weigh and
evaluate what I was told. As you will discover, that is a false
assumption. At least I have experience with one family. How about you?
The fact I don't have your perspective allows me to look at the big
picture. I can base my judgements on the historical perspective. Your
experience with that one family should not outweigh what the record
historical record tells us. We were able to get the top people from
Germany's V-2 rocket program, many of whom were Nazis. The "V" in V-2
stood for vengeance which is what the rockets were used for. They were not
fired at military targets but at civilians. There purpose was solely for
terror, not military advantage. Those rocket scientists could have been
tried for war crimes but that would not have been in our country's
interest so we were willing to give them a pass on what they did in during
WWII to advance our own capabilities. The US had it's own questionable
targeting practices such as the firebombing of cities like Dresden and
Tokyo. There were military targets in Dresden but they were away from the
city center where the first and largest raid targeted. The decision to use
incendiary bombs rather than fragmentation bombs against Tokyo resulted in
a firestorm that killed about 100,000 civilians. Robert McNamara served
under Curtis LeMay at the time and both agreed that had the US lost the
war, they would have been tried as war criminals. It is understandable
that we would be willing to forgive the Germans who worked on the V-2
program due to some of our own questionable decisions.
With all due respect, you appear to be confusing perspective with
position. It is possible to take any position and develop an hypothesis
which can then be tested. Your underlying position appears to be that the
US is good and USSR is bad. But as a result,, you seem to have to make
excuses for the actions of the US.
If you read what I just wrote you would know I don't say everything the US
=es is automatically good. The firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo were of
little military value yet caused massive loss of civilian life. We chose
massive incendiary bombing of those cities over precision bombing of the
military targets with fragmentation bombing. Having said that, I see no
problem with the US decision to bring Nazi rocket scientists and
technicians to our country to advance our own missile technology because
it was in our national interest to do so. It was clear in the immediate
aftermath of WWII that the Soviet Union was going to be our main adversary
and we couldn't afford to fall behind them in missile technology,
especially after they developed nuclear weapons. Throughout our history
we've had to work with some very unsavory characters in order to help
defeat even more unsavory people. We allied with Stalin to defeat Hitler.
More recently we worked indirectly with Osama Bin Laden when he was
fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and we worked with Saddam Hussein when
When the Shah was still alive he was our ally. We freuwuently change
sides. Bin Laden was our ally to push out the Russsians.
Post by John Corbett
Iran was our primary foe in the Middle East. I have no problem with giving
the German rocket personnel a pass on what they did in WWII because we
needed them to prevent WWIII.
Mark
2020-11-04 13:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-11-06 02:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?

Pamela
Mark
2020-11-07 01:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.

What is MY position on this theory of yours?

How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?

Never in my reading of the many conspiracy books I own, nor in the CT
documentaries and Hollywood movies I've watched, is one sentence said
about NASA scientists involvement in JFK's murder.

So it's all on you. The only position that matters here is yours, and you
won't explain it. Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-11-08 00:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
Never in my reading of the many conspiracy books I own, nor in the CT
documentaries and Hollywood movies I've watched, is one sentence said
about NASA scientists involvement in JFK's murder.
That's not my hypothesis. It is that the visibility of JFK with WVB may
have been the final straw that precipitated the assassination. The
gathering together of the WVB team is the issue, not the individual
scientists.
So it's all on you. The only position that matters here is yours, and you
won't explain it. Mark
I'm doing my best.

Pamela
John Corbett
2020-11-09 04:32:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
Pamela Brown
2020-11-13 03:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Mark
2020-11-13 22:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-11-14 20:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Ruth Paine
Mark
2020-11-15 21:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Ruth Paine
I don't know why I didn't guess that one, too. So, Quaker Ruth, and the
self-absorbed de Mohrenschildt were the handlers of Oswald the "Can-Man"?

Mark
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-19 03:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Ruth Paine
I don't know why I didn't guess that one, too. So, Quaker Ruth, and the
self-absorbed de Mohrenschildt were the handlers of Oswald the "Can-Man"?
Mark
No. silly.
Ruth sas fiends with Marina because she was a Russian.
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-17 05:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Ruth Paine
Ruth Paine was not working for the CIA.
Pamela Brown
2020-11-18 01:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Ruth Paine
Ruth Paine was not working for the CIA.
Then who?
Mark
2020-11-19 03:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Ruth Paine
Ruth Paine was not working for the CIA.
Then who?
She was a housewife. Can't a lonely person do something out of the
kindness of her heart (take in Marina and the kids in exchange for
improving her Russian) without arousing your CT suspicions? Especially
after 60 years with no evidence that Ruth was CIA, nor Oswald's "handler"?
Mark
Mark
2020-11-20 00:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Ruth Paine
Ruth Paine was not working for the CIA.
Then who?
She was a housewife. Can't a lonely person do something out of the
kindness of her heart (take in Marina and the kids in exchange for
improving her Russian) without arousing your CT suspicions? Especially
after 60 years with no evidence that Ruth was CIA, nor Oswald's "handler"?
Mark
After 57 years.

19efppp
2020-11-19 03:27:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Ruth Paine
Ruth Paine was not working for the CIA.
Then who?
Ruth was a Quaker, which means she could do no wrong. She was holy as the
day is long. If only the CIA was clever enough to use Quakers, then nobody
could suspect anything at all. Who would suspect a Friend? Lee said she
was his friend, though Robert disagreed. She told Life to use "color film"
in her home. She had style. She had class. Quite a lady, this Quaker gal!
That was Lee's problem, he was not a Friend. Maybe that's what he meant by
"Friend." Maybe Robert simply misunderstood. Ruth was Lee's "Friend."
Lee was cracking jokes, that rascal! "We have Friends who will help us."
Hee hee hee. I think Bob should write a song about Ruth. Dylan, not
Harris. Actually, maybe Bob Harris should write a song about Ruth. That
might be even better. It's about time that Bob gave us another music
video. How about it, Harris? Dust off that guitar just one more time, and
sing us a song of Ruth Paine!
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-15 13:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Demohrenschildt. Maurice Bishop.
Mark
2020-11-17 05:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Pamela, can you give us just two names of Oswald's "handlers"? I guessing
good old long-in-the-tooth de Mohrenschildt is the first. Would you give
me a second name? Mark
Demohrenschildt. Maurice Bishop.
Those are CT guesses, not facts. Tony Marsh: "You guys always ASSuME
guilt, but can never prove it." Posted 7:22 AM, 11/15/2020. Mark
John Corbett
2020-11-13 22:25:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Now all you need is evidence he had handlers.
Pamela Brown
2020-11-14 20:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Now all you need is evidence he had handlers.
And you need evidence that he did not.
John Corbett
2020-11-15 21:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Now all you need is evidence he had handlers.
And you need evidence that he did not.
No, I really don't need such evidence any more than I need evidence that
there are NOT herds of pink unicorns roaming Venus under the thick cloud
layer. The burden is on those making a hypothesis to provide evidence that
support that hypothesis. In absence of such evidence, there is no reason
to believe Oswald had any handlers.

I know what Oswald did. He shot and killed JFK. I have no idea why and can
only guess. It would be nice to know why he did it, but I don't need to
know why to know that he did it.
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-19 03:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by John Corbett
Post by Pamela Brown
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
I seriously doubt Oswald knew about those back channel negotiations so it
seems unlikely that was his motivation for assassinating JFK.
His handlers might...
Now all you need is evidence he had handlers.
And you need evidence that he did not.
No, I really don't need such evidence any more than I need evidence that
there are NOT herds of pink unicorns roaming Venus under the thick cloud
layer. The burden is on those making a hypothesis to provide evidence that
support that hypothesis. In absence of such evidence, there is no reason
to believe Oswald had any handlers.
I know what Oswald did. He shot and killed JFK. I have no idea why and can
only guess. It would be nice to know why he did it, but I don't need to
know why to know that he did it.
No, you don't now anything. You have never done any research.
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-10 04:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
I think it was ordered by Richard Helms because he thought that JFK was
going to fire him.
Post by Pamela Brown
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
Never in my reading of the many conspiracy books I own, nor in the CT
documentaries and Hollywood movies I've watched, is one sentence said
about NASA scientists involvement in JFK's murder.
That's not my hypothesis. It is that the visibility of JFK with WVB may
have been the final straw that precipitated the assassination. The
gathering together of the WVB team is the issue, not the individual
scientists.
So it's all on you. The only position that matters here is yours, and you
won't explain it. Mark
I'm doing my best.
Pamela
Mark
2020-11-11 03:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
I think it was ordered by Richard Helms because he thought that JFK was
going to fire him.
Post by Pamela Brown
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
Never in my reading of the many conspiracy books I own, nor in the CT
documentaries and Hollywood movies I've watched, is one sentence said
about NASA scientists involvement in JFK's murder.
That's not my hypothesis. It is that the visibility of JFK with WVB may
have been the final straw that precipitated the assassination. The
gathering together of the WVB team is the issue, not the individual
scientists.
So it's all on you. The only position that matters here is yours, and you
won't explain it. Mark
I'm doing my best.
Pamela
Because you THINK?! You are publicly accusing a man, Helms, of conspiring
to murder President Kennedy because you think he might have? Mark
19efppp
2020-11-11 03:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
What would prompt such a dismissive statement? I can't imagine. If you
choose, you may see some of the dots connected in the posts here. Why not
provide evidence of your position? What is your position?
Pamela
I'm not dismissive of you. I'm saying as simply as I can I can't
understand your conspiracy theory involving ex-Nazi scientists until you
explain it.
Why not quit making demands?
What is MY position on this theory of yours?
No. What is you position on the motive for the assassination of JFK?
How can I have a position on something you haven't defined? It's your
theory not mine. Why should I have to connect the dots on the posts?
Why don't you just tell us?
My position is that WVB seems to have convinced JFK that they needed to reunite the US and German/Russian team members in order to go to the Moon and Mars. As a result, JFK was back-channelling to the Russians throughout his administration. This was perceived by some insiders who were already outraged by his failure at the Bay of Pigs and concessions in the CMS and considered his behavior traitorous. This became a motive for the assassination.
Never in my reading of the many conspiracy books I own, nor in the CT
documentaries and Hollywood movies I've watched, is one sentence said
about NASA scientists involvement in JFK's murder.
That's not my hypothesis. It is that the visibility of JFK with WVB may
have been the final straw that precipitated the assassination. The
gathering together of the WVB team is the issue, not the individual
scientists.
So it's all on you. The only position that matters here is yours, and you
won't explain it. Mark
I'm doing my best.
Pamela
Apparently, there were some American Jews who didn't like WvB:

https://lukeford.net/blog/?p=116818

Some people think there was an Israeli connection to the assassination, a
contributor to this newsgroup made such sounds, I forget his name now. He
referred to a JFK "tree stump" monument in Israel, which one might think
honors the assassination more than the man. Jack Ruby was a "sensitive"
Jew, and his Rabbi, Hillel Silverman, still living I believe, was a proud
terrorist, or freedom fighter for Israel during its formation. And a CAP
associate of Oswald, eventually converted to Judaism, moved to Israel, and
worked with the MOSSAD. That would be Frederick S. O'Sullivan, a fine
Jewish name.

Most proponents of Israeli involvement seem to focus on the issue of
Israel's development of nuclear weapons and JFK's opposition to that,
though, not WvB.

It sounds like s stretch to me, as a motivation. Why not just assassinate
dear old Wehrner himself?
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-07 00:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
DURING WwII Frank Bender sided with the OSS and the French Resistance
against the NAZIS.
Pamela Brown
2020-11-07 01:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
Apparently, you don't consider treason -- or actions that appear to be
treasonous-- a valid motive for the assassination?
Mark
2020-11-11 02:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
Apparently, you don't consider treason -- or actions that appear to be
treasonous-- a valid motive for the assassination?
Of course I believe treason is a motive for the murder of a president. I
think Oswald was guilty of High Treason. Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-11-13 03:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
Apparently, you don't consider treason -- or actions that appear to be
treasonous-- a valid motive for the assassination?
Of course I believe treason is a motive for the murder of a president. I
think Oswald was guilty of High Treason. Mark
As a Man-Can?
Mark
2020-11-13 22:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
Apparently, you don't consider treason -- or actions that appear to be
treasonous-- a valid motive for the assassination?
Of course I believe treason is a motive for the murder of a president. I
think Oswald was guilty of High Treason. Mark
As a Man-Can?
You'll have to help me out here. What does "Man-Can" mean? Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-11-14 20:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
Apparently, you don't consider treason -- or actions that appear to be
treasonous-- a valid motive for the assassination?
Of course I believe treason is a motive for the murder of a president. I
think Oswald was guilty of High Treason. Mark
As a Man-Can?
You'll have to help me out here. What does "Man-Can" mean? Mark
Manchurian Candidate
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-15 13:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
Apparently, you don't consider treason -- or actions that appear to be
treasonous-- a valid motive for the assassination?
Of course I believe treason is a motive for the murder of a president. I
think Oswald was guilty of High Treason. Mark
As a Man-Can?
You'll have to help me out here. What does "Man-Can" mean? Mark
Can-Can is a French dance with high kicking.
Pamela Brown
2020-11-16 04:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
Mark
https://inbroaddaylight.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/the-jfk-assassination-from-a-different-perspective/
Pamela
No. Sorry Pamela but that's doesn't help me understand your thinking at
all. As with your post I responded to, that article provides no frame of
reference for how you tie in von Braun, other NASA scientists (whether
they went post-war to West Germany or the Soviet Union) to JFK's trip to
Florida in November, and the pictures taken there to JFK's murder? Mark
Perhaps it might help if we start by acknowledging that my perspective is
different than yours.
I agree with that. How would you explain your perspective? Mark
Were you involved with a family of Nazis who came to the US with Werhner
Von Braun? If not, your perspective is probably different from mine. Is
that sufficient explanation?
Pamela
No. Still no explanation on why or how you connect ex-Nazi scientists to
JFK's murder. And I'll just have to live with that, since you obviously
have no intention of telling me the connection. Without that, we are
talking in circles. Mark
Apparently, you don't consider treason -- or actions that appear to be
treasonous-- a valid motive for the assassination?
Of course I believe treason is a motive for the murder of a president. I
think Oswald was guilty of High Treason. Mark
As a Man-Can?
You'll have to help me out here. What does "Man-Can" mean? Mark
Can-Can is a French dance with high kicking.
Maybe he could do that too...
Anthony Marsh
2020-10-13 23:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
What do YOU mean by it means something different to you and to others.
Post by Mark
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
Define "getting together."
Post by Mark
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
So you think there was nothing that JFK could have done to spark the
assssaination> Someone did it just for fun?
Don't remember the theory that some CIA agent held a grudge from the
Bay of Pigs fiasco?
Post by Mark
Mark
Pamela Brown
2020-10-15 03:24:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Yes. I think Dylan was (is?) too Christian to be counterculture ala John
Lennon. (I miss The Traveling Wilburys.)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Hank
Why heck Hank, it's right up there with what I think is Pamela's latest
theory that Wernher von Braun and his fellow ex-Nazi rocket scientists did
in JFK, a president who increased their space exploration budget by
millions. Mark
That's false. The next time you quote me kindly provide a cite.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased you. My apology if that's not what you believe. I wasn't sure, which is why I said "I think." The thing is you write rather cryptically. That's fine; that's your right. But it is difficult to interpret, and I guess I shouldn't try.
What I have said is that I think that a photo of JFK and WVB taken just
days before the assassination at NASA could have been the final straw.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/538/kennedy-and-von-braun/
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've long been aware of the
photographs taken in Florida in November of '63. Here's the latest book
https://www.amazon.com/Space-Age-Presidency-John-Kennedy-Photographic/dp/0826358098/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+nasa&qid=1602561214&s=books&sr=1-1
Though I think this is the best book on the "space race" during the
https://www.amazon.com/Kennedy-Palgrave-Studies-History-Technology/dp/023011010X/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=president+kennedy+and+the+space+race&qid=1602561729&s=bo
Why was that picture possibly the "final straw"? I have no idea what you
are talking about.
What do YOU mean by it means something different to you and to others.
JFK and WVB were getting together WVBs original team of physicists from
Define "getting together."
the US and USSR to work on the moon shot and then go to Mars. I consider
this sufficiently upsetting to perhaps have been a factor in the
assassination of JFK.
Again, what about that gathering (if that's what really what happened) is
"sufficiently upsetting" to make you believe it was "a factor in the
assassination of JFK"? Fill me in.
So you think there was nothing that JFK could have done to spark the
assssaination> Someone did it just for fun?
Don't remember the theory that some CIA agent held a grudge from the
Bay of Pigs fiasco?
Mark
This might help...
https://ss100x.wordpress.com/2016/08/30/changing-gears-a-new-approach-to-understanding-the-assassination-of-jfk/

Pamela
Pamela Brown
2020-10-11 00:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
Follow the thread. I did not write that...
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
I have.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Read the header. It's called a hypothesis. I could be wrong.

Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-10-12 00:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by 19efppp
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was.
Tune in, Turn on, and Drop out.
Post by 19efppp
This sort of
Post by 19efppp
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
It's been done. It's a book. John Lennon was killed by the CIA. Didn't you
know?
Follow the thread. I did not write that...
I know. I responded to two posts at once.
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
https://www.amazon.com/Killed-John-Lennon-Fenton-Bresler/dp/0312923678
Post by 19efppp
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
Members of the counterculture in the 1960s reached out to Dylan to get him
to join their cause. He always refused.
Post by 19efppp
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
You need to talk to A.J.Weberman, Dylan's Garbagologist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
I have.
Hilarious. My suggestion was a humorous one. Weberman thought he could glean insights into Dylan by studying Dylan's garbage.
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
A.J.Weberman thought Dylan was writing songs about him (Weberman).
Seriously.
Good luck with your theory.
I'm chuckling already. Sounds like another winner.
Read the header. It's called a hypothesis. I could be wrong.
"Could be" is giving yourself too much credit.

Hank
19efppp
2020-10-11 00:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
I don't know his songs well enough to judge whether Dylan had inside
information. If you could give specific examples in the lyrics, it might
be helpful. I know he is still revered by some, but my impression is that
he lost any political relevance he had a very long time ago. I doubt that
he would have been useful to the CIA after 1966, and before that he sounds
more like an enemy of the CIA agenda. Are there issues with his
motorcycle...accident? I have not seen the documents. I wouldn't be
surprised.
John Corbett
2020-10-12 03:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
I don't know his songs well enough to judge whether Dylan had inside
information. If you could give specific examples in the lyrics, it might
be helpful. I know he is still revered by some, but my impression is that
he lost any political relevance he had a very long time ago. I doubt that
he would have been useful to the CIA after 1966, and before that he sounds
more like an enemy of the CIA agenda. Are there issues with his
motorcycle...accident? I have not seen the documents. I wouldn't be
surprised.
Most of Dylan's works in the 1960s had a political edge to it. He began
drifting away from that in the early 1970s into more ballads. He recorded
the album Nashville skyline with Johnny Cash. He did the title song for
the movie Pat Garret and Billy the Kid and even had a small role in the
movie. I've read that Dylan was a big fan of westerns. One of my favorite
Dylan songs is Lily, Rosemary, and the Jack of Hearts which had a western
theme.
19efppp
2020-10-13 02:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Post by 19efppp
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
The case for Bob Dylan as a mockingbird is very weak if you mean that his
songs were doing the biding of the CIA. You family connections, if real,
might mean something, but the rabbi was probably right to dismiss that.
There really is a much stronger case for anybody who was, like Leary,
urging people to turn on and drop out, or whatever it was. This sort of
messaging would encourage the idealistic to be non-engaged politically.
Getting the idealists out of politics would help the CIA with its elitist
goals, since young idealists tend to be pro-democracy, "power to the
people" and all that. Much stronger case for the Beatles, until Lennon
went rogue. Funny that John (Working Class Hero) and George ("Everywhere
there's lots of piggies living piggy lives. You can see them out for
dinner with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their
bacon.") are the Dead Beatles, and Paul and Ringo are not. The most
politically idealistic are dead, and the least still live.
I see Dylan in a unique position, especially vulnerable to having been
roped into something. I think Dylan put clues into his songs to indicate
those for which he may have been given inside information.
But I certainly don't see this process of trying to recruit performers as
exclusive to Dylan.
Pamela
https://dylagence.wordpress.com/
I don't know his songs well enough to judge whether Dylan had inside
information. If you could give specific examples in the lyrics, it might
be helpful. I know he is still revered by some, but my impression is that
he lost any political relevance he had a very long time ago. I doubt that
he would have been useful to the CIA after 1966, and before that he sounds
more like an enemy of the CIA agenda. Are there issues with his
motorcycle...accident? I have not seen the documents. I wouldn't be
surprised.
Most of Dylan's works in the 1960s had a political edge to it. He began
drifting away from that in the early 1970s into more ballads. He recorded
the album Nashville skyline with Johnny Cash. He did the title song for
the movie Pat Garret and Billy the Kid and even had a small role in the
movie. I've read that Dylan was a big fan of westerns. One of my favorite
Dylan songs is Lily, Rosemary, and the Jack of Hearts which had a western
theme.
Thanks. Maybe I can help you out. "I buried Paul," is not backwards but is
spoken as Strawberry Fields Forever fades away. Later, with digital
clarity, people said it really says, "strawberry jam," I believe. "Turn me
on, dead man," was a supposedly backwards message from "Revolution Number
9." And, "Those freaks was right when they said you was dead," is rather
explicit. This thread has led me to the understanding of another Lennon
lyric. In "God," among the many things John does not believe in, which
includes "Kennedy," there is also "Zimmerman." Only now do I realize he
means Bob Dylan.
Anthony Marsh
2020-11-19 03:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela Brown
Thinking back to Operation Mockingbird, or whatever it really was, can you
think of any reason why CIA would not try to recruit credible songwriters
from the folk revolt, to whom they might provide information about
tumultuous events intended for the country? The objective would be to have
them write songs intended to keep their fans complacent...
Thanks,
Pamela
Sure. They knew from MK/ULTRA that a subject strung out on LSD would not
be reliable and wuould sell them out for money.
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