Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Post by Anthony MarshPost by BOZPost by Anthony MarshPost by BOZPost by Anthony MarshPost by BOZPost by Anthony MarshBecause this is Shark Week on TV, I had to look for some other channels
to watch and stumbled onto some reruns of the old SciFi show Sliders.
It is like time travel, but just allows you to visit Earth in an
alternate reality when conditions had changed.
A college srudent invents a space/time warp vortex machine.
His very first slide sends him to his own house, but everyone else is
dead because Global Thawing has frozen the Earth.
In his next attempt he lands at his college, but it is now controlled by
the Soviets. Seems that Russia had won the Korean War and went on to
conquer the whole Earth. In the next slide everything looks OK at first,
but he realizes that they are in the middle of a pandemic. What makes it
worse is that his other self was Patient Zero who started the pandemic.
Of course the rich are quarantined and protected and they use the police
to hunt down and kill anyone who is infected and all scientists.
Luckily our hero had taken along his college professor who invents
penicillin and cures all the poor people. Sound familiar?
BTW, why won't they tell us what Trump's brother died of?
Did Trump kiss him on his forehead at his deathbed?
Trump's brother suffered brain bleeds from a recent fall.
Or is that just the cover story?
How come we didn't hear about this fall before? Pride goeth before the
fall. Did they plan o wait until the Fall to tell us?
When will they tell us about Ivanka's abortion? CHristmas?
How disgusting! You make a mockery of a persons death just because you
disagree with their beliefs, and try to turn it into some sort of a
conspiracy to keep the "truth" from the public. You get worse with age,
Marsh.
Marsh is jealous of you for debunking the dictabelt static. He has never
gotten over it. Repugnant!
Where did Steve call it static?
Only a moron wuld make a claim like that. Steve said he could hear
crosstalk and I agreed with him. You don't even know what ceosstalk is.
You keep ducking my challenge for you to match what you think is static
I've listened to dictabelt several times. Tell me where the rifle shots
are. It's static.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rebuttal.htm
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/headshot.txt
Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data
Frames Group
158-159 D
191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not
227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.
290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before
313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.
331-332 A2
HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle
137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B
139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1
[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C
144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1
145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
Your problem is you then have to say the autopsy is fraudulent. They
No, but it is impossible to avoid that conclusion. Not even YOU can
defend the stupid things they said.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)concluded there were only two shots that struck the President, and both
were inflicted from above and behind the level of the deceased.
Well they were right about the back shot, but the WC lied anout where.
Ford changled BSCK to BACK OF THE NECK. That's called lying.
If the autopsy was correct, why did he have to lie and change it?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)By claiming the head shot visible in Z313 came from the knoll, you now
have an additional level of conspiracy to explain. Why would the
That's OK with me and I do.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)conspirators shoot the President from the right side if their goal was to
frame Oswald for the shooting? How could the conspirators control what
Because Oswald kept missing and his gun jammed. JKF was going to get out
of Dealey Plaza alive. It's called the insurance shot.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)bullets were found in the body (or elsewhere) and how could they presume
the autopsy doctors would just overlook the head wound inflicted from the
side?
There should never be ANY bullets found in the body.
Naybe fragments.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Please also remember that the extant autopsy materials have been examined
multiple times, and all the forensic pathologists who have reviewed that
material has concluded the original autopsy doctors got it right - two
shots from above and behind, no evidence of any shots from anywhere else.
I don't know the name of that logic error, but you are not making any
sense. You say that just because the cover-up has lasted so long it must
be right. The American people do not agree with you.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Post by Anthony MarshCould eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place.
Not exactly.
He said in his initial report that he only heard two shots, and, "I heard
a second firecracker type noise but it had a different sound-- like the
sound of shooting a revolver into something hard." Nothing about metal.
Maybe the chrome topping? YOUR beloved WC did not even try to explain
the dent and we know YOU are not man enough to even try, Just Cover it up.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)In his testimony, he said this about the second of the two shots he heard,
"Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different
than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though
someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some
type of an echo. ... The second one had almost a double sound--as though
you were standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear
both the sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting
the metal place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface
of the head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it."
He does mention metal, but only by way of an analogy. His best guess for
That's OK. Maybe you could twist that into meaning the head.
Never rely on witneesses.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)the double sound is the sound of the bullet being fired and the sound of
the bullet hitting the President's head.
Post by Anthony MarshIf he in fact
had heard the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would
not, in and of itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the
dent could have been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would
narrow the range during which the chrome topping was dented to between
Z-313 to Z-331 and make it more likely that the chrome topping was dented
at the same time that the windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier
as some have speculated.
On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the
statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the
grassy knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the
direct path of gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that
the head shot came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the
TSBD.
Your problem is that Newman clarified where he thought the shots came from
in the Bugliosi / Spence TV trial. It was neither the grassy knoll nor the
Depository. It was the semi-circular concrete structure behind him.
Post by Anthony MarshEmmett Hudson, who was standing on the steps leading up to the
pergola, said that the shots sounded as if they came from behind him,
above his head and to his left. That would place the origin near the
fence.
"The shots that I heard definately [sic] came from behind and above me.
OMG, someone made a typo [sic]. Off with his head!
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)When I laid down on the ground I laid on my right side and my view was
still toward the street where the President's car had passed. I did look
around but I did not see any firearms at all. This shot sounded to me like
a high powered rifle."
Nothing wrong with that perception.
Where is our resident Donahue expert to say \that it was an
AR-15?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)In his testimony, he expanded on that and said the shots came from above
and behind the motorcade.
== QUOTE ==
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting
there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay
down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay
down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down
one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and
resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I
was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above
and kind of behind.
How high above? The SS car?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Mr. LIEBELER - How could you tell that?
Mr. HUDSON - Well, just the sound of it.
Bur you keep saying that Dealey Plaza was an echo chamber. Try to be
more consistent.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Mr. LIEBELER - You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then
above?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the
ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole lot
plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air.
== UNQUOTE ==
Between the high-powered rifle and the sound coming from above and behind
the motorcade, it doesn't sound a whole lot like your description of
Hudson's testimony at all. By the way, Hudson, like Clint Hill, thought
the President was hit in the head by the second shot.
Maybe they don't know how to count. Maybe they were right, but never
heard the first shot.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Post by Anthony MarshZapruder felt that the head shot had come from behind him and
whistled past his right ear.
I could find nothing like that in his testimony - I searched for 'ear' and
You hyar said you COULD. Did you mean to type COULDN'T?
Was that a TYPO? OMG is this thing infectious? Is there a vaccine?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)== QUOTE ==
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you form any opinion about the direction from which the
shots came by the sound, or were you just upset by the thing you had seen?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, there was too much reverberation. There was an echo
which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of--it
had a sound all over.
== UNQUOTE ==
I was not talking about his testimony when he was being coached.
I quoted what he told the Secret Service that day.
Where else would you be able to find it except from me?
GOOGLE? BING?
"Later that day he told a Secret Service agent the same thing. In a
handwritten memo to Secret Service headquarters penned that very evening,
the agent who had interviewed Zapruder noted: ???According to Mr. Zapruder
the position of the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.???
CD - 87 Folder 1
CO2 34030 11/22
9:55
To: Chief Rowley
From: Max D. Phillips
Subject: 8mm movie film showing President
Kennedy being shot
Enclosed is an 8mm movie film
taken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., Dallas
Texas (RI8-6071)
Mr.. Zapruder was photographing
the President at the instant he was shot.
According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of
the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.
Note: Disregard personnel scenes
shown on Mr. Zapruder???s film.. Mr. Zapruder
is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints
were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date.
The third print is forwarded.
Max D. Phillips
Special Agent - PRS
??????Max D. Phillips
Special Agent - PRS
SS SA Max Phillips wrote to Rowley
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Zapruder was one of about a half-dozen witnesses who testified that the
reverberations confused them as to the source of the sound.
As usual you refuse to look at all the evidence and cherrypick only what
you think supports YOUR theory.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Post by Anthony MarshBetween these two witnesses and behind them
is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable shockwave at 24 ms.
before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot. Assuming the weapon was
aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough calculation of the velocity of
the bullet and the resultant angle of the shockwave. Although the
calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too difficult for me, a
rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet at about 1564.5
fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on either side
of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within the cone
of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.
Except if a shot was fired from the knoll, it missed, based on the
evidence from JFK's body. But you deny it missed, contrary to the science.
False. Thw physical evidence shows it hit his forehead.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Post by Anthony MarshHow can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it
had been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have
been outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not
have been recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can
be found in the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he
was shown a very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the
viewpoint was looking right down the barrel of the gun.
Yes, you got something right. Congratulations. I guess that canard about a
broken clock being right twice a day is true after all.
No, silly. A friend tried that on me and I pointed out that the clock
had no hands.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)But Holland wasn't standing near Moorman on the day of the assassination.
He talking about what he thinks he sees in the Moorman photo standing
approximately where whe was, not where he was on the day of the
assassination.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)He was on the overpass. You can see in the below image how close the known
source of the shots (the Depository) was to the source he identified (the
knoll).
HAT?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)https://www.orwelltoday.com/jfkpickethollandoverpass.jpg
Post by Anthony MarshGiven Mary
Moorman's position, the gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In
Moorman 2 we can see the head of a man peering over the fence, about 9
feet from the corner. Interestingly, this is the same spot where W&A
located the origin of the grassy knoll shot, unaware of the existence of
Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view of any weapon as we
might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever this man was, he
moved from that position very quickly after the head shot. There is no one
there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton photograph, taken
shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has never been
analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were unaware of
its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I found it
at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to properly
analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal the
presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher, Dale
Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a
person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.
Yes, that's possibly mentioned in the testimony of Lee Bowers. Bowers saw
nothing suspicious in either of the two men he saw.
Sure, severl minutes before the shooting, but then he lost sight on the
guy in a jacket.
Testimony Of Lee E. Bowers, Jr.
The testimony of Lee E. Bowers, Jr. was taken at 2 p.m., on April 2,
1964, In the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Joseph A. Bail, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL - Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Bowers?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Will you state your name, please.
Mr. BOWERS - Lee E. Bowers, Jr.
Mr. BALL - And what is your residence address?
Mr. BOWERS - 10508 Maplegrove Lane.
Mr. BALL - Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BOWERS - Dallas.
Mr. BALL - And would you tell me something about yourself, where you
were born, raised, and what has been your business, generally, or
occupation?
Mr. BOWERS - I was born right here in Dallas, and lived here most of my
life except when I was in the Navy, art he age of 17 to 21, and I was
away 2 years going to Hardin Simmons University, also, attended Southern
Methodist University 2 years, majoring in religion. I worked for the
railroad 15 years and was a serf-employed builder, as well as---on the
side. And the first of this year when I went to work as business manager
for Dr. Tim Green who operates this hospital and convalescent home and
rent properties.
Mr. BALL - What railroad did you work for?
Mr. BOWERS - Worked for the Union Terminal Co. with the 8 participating
railroads.
Mr. BALL - And on November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union
Terminal Co.?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What kind of work were you doing for them?
Mr. BOWERS - I was tower man in the north tower, Union Terminal,
operating the switches and signals controlling the movement of trains.
Mr. BALL - Through railroad yards?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What were your hours of work?
Mr. BOWERS - 7 to 3 p.m., Monday through Friday.
Mr. BALL - Now, do you remember what is the height of--above the ground
at which you worked in the tower?
Mr. BOWERS - It is second story, it is 14 feet, 12 or 14 feet.
Mr. BALL - You worked about 14 feet above the ground?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And the tower was arranged so that you could see out?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; it is windows except for posts that--posts on each
comer. It is windows on all four sides.
Mr. BALL - Where is that located with reference to the corner of Elm and
Houston?
Mr. BOWERS - It is west and north of this corner, and as to distances, I
really don't know. It is within 50 yards of the back of the School
Depository Building, or less.
Mr. BALL - Did you say that it is built on higher ground, the base of
the tower on higher ground than around Houston and Elm?
Mr. BOWERS - Approximately the same.
Mr. BALL - Same? It is higher ground than Elm as it recedes down under
the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes, sir; considerably.
Mr. BALL - And the base of your tower is about the same height as the
triple underpass, isn't it?
Mr. BOWERS - Approximately.
Mr. BALL - Now, can you tell me why you refer to that as a triple
underpass? In our conversation here before you were sworn your
description--you described it as a triple underpass.
Mr. BOWERS - It is just a local connotation for it since there are three
streets that run under it.
Mr. BALL - I see. And how many sets of tracks do you control from your
tower?
Mr. BOWERS - There are about 11 tracks in the station and 2 freight tracks.
Mr. BALL - That would be 13 tracks that is, the tracks altogether, that
pass in front of your tower?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; of course where the tracks converge and cross and
split off to various railroad yards---
Mr. BALL - And the tracks are to the north and west of your tower,
aren't they?
Mr. BOWERS - Well, the tracks are west, but they proceed in all
directions, I they are both north and south.
Mr. BALL - Now, you were on duty on November 22, 1963, weren't you?
Mr. BOWERS - That's correct.
Mr. BALL - Close to noon, did you make any observation of the area
around between your tower and Elm Street?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; because of the fact that the area had been covered by
police for some 2 hours. Since approximately 10 o'clock in the morning
traffic had been cut off into the area so that anyone moving around
could actually be observed. Since I had worked there for a number of
years I was familiar with most of the people who came in and out of the
area.
Mr. BALL - Did you notice any cars around there?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; there were three cars that came in during the time
from around noon until the time of the shooting.
Mr. BALL - Came in where?
Mr. BOWERS - They came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the
extension of Elm Street, which runs in front of the School Depository,
'and which there is no way out. It is not a through street to anywhere.
Mr. BALL - There is parking area behind the School Depository, between
that building and your tower?
Mr. BOWERS - Two or three railroad tracks and a small amount of parking
area for the employees.
Mr. BALL - And the first came along that you noticed about what time of day?
Mr. BOWERS - I do not recall the exact time, but I believe this was
approximately 12:10, wouldn't be too far off.
Mr. BALL - And the car you noticed, when you noticed the car, where was it?
Mr. BOWERS - The car proceeded in front of the School Depository down
across 2 or 3 tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to
the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or was
checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he
could, the same outlet he came into.
Mr. BALL - The place where Elm dead ends?
Mr. BOWERS - That's right. Back in front of the School Depository was
the only way he could get out. And I lost sight of him, I couldn't watch
him.
Mr. BALL - What was the description of that car?
Mr. BOWERS - The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station
wagon with out-of-State license.
Mr. BALL - Do you know what State?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I do not. I would know it, I could identify it, I
think, if I looked at a list.
Mr. BALL - And, it had something else, some bumper stickers?
Mr. BOWERS - Had a bumper sticker, one of which was a Goldwater sticker,
and the other of which was of some scenic location, I think.
Mr. BALL - And, did you see another car?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes, some 15 minutes or so after this, at approximately 12
o'clock, 20 to 12--I guess 12:20 would be close to it, little time
differential there--but there was another car which was a 1957 black
Ford, with one male in it that seemed to have a mike or telephone or
something that gave the appearance of that at least.
Mr. BALL - How could you tell that?
Mr. BOWERS - He was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and
he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. He was very
close to the tower. I could see him as he proceeded around the area.
Mr. BALL - What kind of license did that have?
Mr. BOWERS - Had a Texas license.
Mr. BALL - What did it do as it came into the area, from what street?
Mr. BOWERS - Came in from the extension of Elm Street in front of the
School Depository.
Mr. BALL - Did you see it leave?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; after 3 or 4 minutes cruising around the area it
departed the same way. He did probe a little further into the area than
the first car.
Mr. BALL - Did you see another car?
Mr. BOWERS - Third car, which entered the area, which was some seven or
nine minutes before the shooting, I believe was a 1961 or 1962
Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road.
It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to
the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male.
Mr. BALL - What did it do?
Mr. BOWERS - He spent a little more time in the area. He tried-he
circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt to
get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and slowly
cruised down back towards the front of the School Depository Building.
Mr. BALL - Then did he leave?
Mr. BOWERS - The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just
above the assassination site.
Mr. BALL - Did the car park, or continue on or did you notice?
Mr. BOWERS - Whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it
pulled up only a short distance, I couldn't tell. I was busy.
Mr. BALL - How long was this before the President's car passed there?
Mr. BOWERS - This last car? About 8 minutes.
Mr. BALL - Were you in a position where you could see the corner of Elm
and Houston from the tower?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not see the corner of Elm and Houston. I could
see the corner of Main and Houston as they came down and turned on, then
I couldn't see it for about half a block, and after they passed the
corner of Elm and Houston the car came in sight again.
Mr. BALL - You saw the President's car coming out the Houston Street
from Main, did you?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I saw that.
Mr. BALL - Then you lost sight of it?
Mr. BOWERS - Right. For a moment.
Mr. BALL - Then you saw it again where?
Mr. BOWERS - It came in sight after it had turned the corner of Elm and
Houston.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. BOWERS - I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two
very close together. Also reverberation from the shots.
Mr. BELIN - And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the
sound or what direction it came from, I mean?
Mr. BOWERS - The sounds came either from up against the School
Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to tell which?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the
tower as to sounds coming from those various places?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 years,
and was there during the time they were renovating the School Depository
Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds
occurring in either of those two locations.
Mr. BALL - Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you
heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository
Building or the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - From your experience there, previous experience there in
hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository
Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from
the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?
Mr. BOWERS - There is a similarity of sound, because there is a
reverberation which takes place from either location.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass
before?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; quite often. Because trucks backfire and various
occurrences.
Mr. BALL - And you had heard noises originating from the Texas School
Depository when they were building there?
Mr. BOWERS - They were renovating. I---did carpenter work as well as
sandblasted the outside of the building.
Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high
ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the
underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there
were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set,
in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about
midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.
Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?
Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and
gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.
Mr. BALL - In what direction were they facing?
Mr. BOWERS - They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston,
and following the caravan as it came down.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One
facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad
employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two
welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also
a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.
Mr. BALL - You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; they were there before 'and after.
Mr. BALL - And were they standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston
Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people up on this high ground?
Mr. BOWERS - There were one or two people in the area. Not in this same
vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates a
parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those
custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a
slight distance back.
Mr. BALL - When you heard the sound, which way were you looking?
Mr. BOWERS - At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly
towards the area---at the moment of the first shot, as close as my
recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative
masonry wall in the area.
Mr. BALL - And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see
the car?
Mr. BOWERS - No; at the moment of the shots, I could---I do not think
that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last shot.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after
the shot?
Mr. BOWERS - At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some
commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman
who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.
Mr. BALL - On his motorcycle?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did he come by way of Elm Street?
Mr. BOWERS - He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some
reason, which I did not know.
Mr. BALL - He came up---
Mr. BOWERS - He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his
motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know
Mr. BALL - How did he get up?
Mr. BOWERS - He just shot up over the curb and up.
Mr. BALL - He didn't come then by way of Ell, which dead ends there?
Mr. BOWERS - No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the
motorcycle.
Mr. BALL - Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?
Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and
where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.
Mr. BALL - Were the two men there at the time?
Mr. BOWERS - I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not
say.
The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The
white shirt, yes; I think he was.
Mr. BALL - When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by
that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion?
Mr. BOWERS - I just am unable to describe rather than it was something
out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in
this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my
eye for some reason, which I could not identify.
Mr. BALL - You couldn't describe it?
Mr. BOWERS - Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that---
Mr. BALL - Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high
ground at the tower?
Mr. BOWERS - A large number of people came, more than one direction. One
group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the
extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another line another
large group went across the triangular area between Houston and Elm and
then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them all the way up.
Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred
policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.
Mr. BALL - In this area around your tower?
Mr. BOWERS - That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the
trains until they .could be examined, and there was some transients
taken on at least one train.
Mr. BALL - I believe you have talked this over with me before your
deposition was taken, haven't we?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Is there anything that you told me that I haven't asked you
about that you think of?
Mr. BOWERS - Nothing that I can recall.
Mr. BALL - You have told me all that you know about this, haven't you?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I believe that I have related everything which I have
told the city police, and also told to the FBI.
Mr. BALL - And everything you told me before we started taking the
deposition?
Mr. BOWERS - To my knowledge I can remember nothing else.
Mr. BALL - Now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it,
look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish. What do
you wish?
Mr. BOWERS - I have no reason to sign it unless you want me to.
Mr. BALL - Would you just as leave waive the signature?
Mr. BOWERS - Fine.
Mr. BALL - Then we thank you very much.
Why is it that you cherrypick the evudence?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)== QUOTE ==
Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high
ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the
underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there
were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in
a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties,
in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony MarshMany witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films.
Some fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize
the danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the
grassy knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave
whizzing past them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe
their reactions was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can
see Hudson and his two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola.
They do not seem to be reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see
that two of the men are reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men
would not have reacted to the sound of a shockwave coming from so close
behind them. If the grassy knoll shot was the miss before the head shot,
we would expect to see these men react before the head shot. The fact that
they did not react until after the head shot would seem to indicate that
the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Hilarious. There's another possibility you don't even mention, that's the
logical fallacy of a false dilemma. Perhaps they were reacting to the
visual impact of the President's head exploding in a burst of blood and
brains and they weren't even aware of the first shot(s)? Remember that
Hudson specified the President's head was struck with the second shot and
he didn't see the first or third bullet inflict any damage. So that image
of the President's head exploding before his eyes was the only visual
image of the effect of the bullets he heard. I would suggest that might
cause a reaction.
I thought we were talking about the sound.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)== QUOTE ==
Mr. HUDSON - ... and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't
realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time...
...
Mr. LIEBELER - Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first
shot?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I don't think so - I sure don't.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't think he got hit by the first shot?
Mr. HUDSON - No.
...
Mr. LIEBELER - So you only saw the President hit once; is that right, sir?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
...
Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another
shot?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
...
Maybe that's the WC's missed shot.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see Govenor Connally - did you think Governor
Connally had been hit?
Mr. HUDSON - Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car. The
first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the car when
that happened.
Mr. LIEBELER - So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car at
all?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony MarshBased on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is
more likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Except the autopsy evidence indicates all the shots that struck the
President came from above and behind the level of the deceased. We also
False
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)know that further studies of the dictabelt did NOT confirm the existence
of a grassy knoll shot.
False
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Post by Anthony MarshExisting
evidence can and should be examined further. More information can be
gleaned from existing data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data
could provide new clues and allow us to verify certain methods, such as
the acoustical studies. I urge other researchers to look for new evidence
and perform new analyses.
This is always the fallback CT position -- they keep holding out hope that
"further studies" will confirm the exisitence of a conspiracy they
fervently believe in, but cannot prove. You are no different in that
regard.
However, it's been nearly 57 years since the assassination and there is
still no evidence that establishes a conspiracy. How many more years are
Yes, there is, but YOU refuse to look at it.
You work for the cover-up.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)you going to hold out hope for some new evidence that finally establishes
what you hope is true?
I don't need hope. I already have the evidence.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)Hank
PS: Your post above goes to show that there's enough evidence in the
witness testimony to support almost any conclusion if one ignores any
I never rely on witnesses. I rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)conflicting evidence and simply assumes the witnesses are correct. Don
Willis does this with his 'fifth floor shooter". You do it here with by
Which is why I keep reminding him to never rely on witnesses.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)selecting judiciously from the record to support the failed dictabelt
analysis.
