Discussion:
Motorcade 63 Animation
(too old to reply)
Mark Tyler
2019-10-04 19:32:41 UTC
Permalink
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
through Dealey Plaza:

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html

Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.

If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
19efppp
2019-10-05 11:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-06 00:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
Thanks for taking the time to check my work.

Baker mentioned in his Warren Commission interview that J.W. Williams was
on his left while turning from Houston onto Elm Street. However, this seems
to be contradicted by H.B. McLain who has said he was riding to the left
of Baker. HSCA Volume 5 from page 617 has the text from the interview, and
also JFK Exhibit F-679 from November 21, 1963 which lists McLain on the left
side:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0311a.htm

J.W. Williams is listed as being at the Trade Mart:
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0312a.htm

This evidence is corroborated by photos of the motorcade, as the bike numbered
352 was riding to the left of Baker who rode bike 346. Bike #352 was
identified as McLain in the Dallas Police daily assignment sheet as shown in
the HSCA Volume 5 page 721:
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=wdBEAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.PA721
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0363a.htm

At the bottom of this page it shows J.W. Williams riding bike #354, which
means it wasn't him riding with the Presidential motorcade. Due to the
weight of the evidence, I suspect Baker was simply mistaken in his Warren
Commission interview.

Did you have any other evidence for J.W. Williams being part of the
motorcade?
19efppp
2019-10-07 00:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
Thanks for taking the time to check my work.
Baker mentioned in his Warren Commission interview that J.W. Williams was
on his left while turning from Houston onto Elm Street. However, this seems
to be contradicted by H.B. McLain who has said he was riding to the left
of Baker. HSCA Volume 5 from page 617 has the text from the interview, and
also JFK Exhibit F-679 from November 21, 1963 which lists McLain on the left
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0311a.htm
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0312a.htm
This evidence is corroborated by photos of the motorcade, as the bike numbered
352 was riding to the left of Baker who rode bike 346. Bike #352 was
identified as McLain in the Dallas Police daily assignment sheet as shown in
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=wdBEAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.PA721
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0363a.htm
At the bottom of this page it shows J.W. Williams riding bike #354, which
means it wasn't him riding with the Presidential motorcade. Due to the
weight of the evidence, I suspect Baker was simply mistaken in his Warren
Commission interview.
Did you have any other evidence for J.W. Williams being part of the
motorcade?
You have done your research very well! Great to see somebody who is
serious. It is my opinion that Baker was not mistaken, that he knew who
was riding beside him, and that Mclain was lying and that the paperwork
you cite is...mistaken. I don't expect you to agree, but I wanted to tell
you what I think is the truth. I base my opinion on photography and radio
transcripts and other evidence that points to DPD involvement in the
assassination, but it would be futile to try to prove it in a comment. I
think you're doing fine work there, and if everybody was as diligent as
you, that we would have reached a consensus decades ago.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-08 02:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
Thanks for taking the time to check my work.
Baker mentioned in his Warren Commission interview that J.W. Williams was
on his left while turning from Houston onto Elm Street. However, this seems
to be contradicted by H.B. McLain who has said he was riding to the left
of Baker. HSCA Volume 5 from page 617 has the text from the interview, and
also JFK Exhibit F-679 from November 21, 1963 which lists McLain on the left
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0311a.htm
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0312a.htm
This evidence is corroborated by photos of the motorcade, as the bike numbered
352 was riding to the left of Baker who rode bike 346. Bike #352 was
identified as McLain in the Dallas Police daily assignment sheet as shown in
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=wdBEAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.PA721
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0363a.htm
At the bottom of this page it shows J.W. Williams riding bike #354, which
means it wasn't him riding with the Presidential motorcade. Due to the
weight of the evidence, I suspect Baker was simply mistaken in his Warren
Commission interview.
Did you have any other evidence for J.W. Williams being part of the
motorcade?
You have done your research very well! Great to see somebody who is
serious. It is my opinion that Baker was not mistaken, that he knew who
was riding beside him, and that Mclain was lying and that the paperwork
you cite is...mistaken. I don't expect you to agree, but I wanted to tell
you what I think is the truth. I base my opinion on photography and radio
transcripts and other evidence that points to DPD involvement in the
assassination, but it would be futile to try to prove it in a comment. I
think you're doing fine work there, and if everybody was as diligent as
you, that we would have reached a consensus decades ago.
Thanks for the compliments! It is especially hard to nail down some of
the facts in this case, and even harder to differentiate between mistakes
and lying by the witnesses.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-08 16:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
Thanks for taking the time to check my work.
Baker mentioned in his Warren Commission interview that J.W. Williams was
on his left while turning from Houston onto Elm Street. However, this seems
to be contradicted by H.B. McLain who has said he was riding to the left
of Baker. HSCA Volume 5 from page 617 has the text from the interview, and
also JFK Exhibit F-679 from November 21, 1963 which lists McLain on the left
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0311a.htm
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0312a.htm
This evidence is corroborated by photos of the motorcade, as the bike numbered
352 was riding to the left of Baker who rode bike 346. Bike #352 was
identified as McLain in the Dallas Police daily assignment sheet as shown in
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=wdBEAQAAMAAJ&pg=GBS.PA721
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0363a.htm
At the bottom of this page it shows J.W. Williams riding bike #354, which
means it wasn't him riding with the Presidential motorcade. Due to the
weight of the evidence, I suspect Baker was simply mistaken in his Warren
Commission interview.
Did you have any other evidence for J.W. Williams being part of the
motorcade?
You have done your research very well! Great to see somebody who is
Why the fixation with the motorcycle cops?
Post by 19efppp
serious. It is my opinion that Baker was not mistaken, that he knew who
was riding beside him, and that Mclain was lying and that the paperwork
Have you read the HSCA volumes?
Post by 19efppp
you cite is...mistaken. I don't expect you to agree, but I wanted to tell
you what I think is the truth. I base my opinion on photography and radio
transcripts and other evidence that points to DPD involvement in the
I don't see how such errors implicate the DPD in the murder. Just the
cover-up.
Post by 19efppp
assassination, but it would be futile to try to prove it in a comment. I
think you're doing fine work there, and if everybody was as diligent as
you, that we would have reached a consensus decades ago.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-06 18:14:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
So what? Doesn't prove that he was right. McLain idenified himself as
being in Dealey Plaza.
19efppp
2019-10-07 14:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
So what? Doesn't prove that he was right. McLain idenified himself as
being in Dealey Plaza.
So what? That doesn't prove he was right. Baker said that Williams was
riding beside him.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-08 16:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
So what? Doesn't prove that he was right. McLain idenified himself as
being in Dealey Plaza.
So what? That doesn't prove he was right. Baker said that Williams was
riding beside him.
So what? He was wrong.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-24 23:32:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
So what? Doesn't prove that he was right. McLain idenified himself as
being in Dealey Plaza.
So what? That doesn't prove he was right. Baker said that Williams was
riding beside him.
So, he was confused about where the other cycles were. Those cycles were
not next to each other. They were on the left and right side of the
dignitaries cars.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Motorcade%20Route/Item%2015.pdf
19efppp
2019-10-26 01:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
So what? Doesn't prove that he was right. McLain idenified himself as
being in Dealey Plaza.
So what? That doesn't prove he was right. Baker said that Williams was
riding beside him.
So, he was confused about where the other cycles were. Those cycles were
not next to each other. They were on the left and right side of the
dignitaries cars.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Motorcade%20Route/Item%2015.pdf
Don't be silly. Baker knew who his partner was.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-27 17:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
So what? Doesn't prove that he was right. McLain idenified himself as
being in Dealey Plaza.
So what? That doesn't prove he was right. Baker said that Williams was
riding beside him.
So, he was confused about where the other cycles were. Those cycles were
not next to each other. They were on the left and right side of the
dignitaries cars.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Motorcade%20Route/Item%2015.pdf
Don't be silly. Baker knew who his partner was.
Did you bother reading Todd Vaughan's excellent work on the motorcade
vehicles?

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Motorcade%20Route/Item%2015.pdf

Baker
mistakenly_identifies McLain as L.W. Williams in his Warren
Commission testimony (3H268).
19efppp
2019-10-27 23:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Baker said it was JW Williams riding next to him where you put some fella
named McLain. You're welcome.
So what? Doesn't prove that he was right. McLain idenified himself as
being in Dealey Plaza.
So what? That doesn't prove he was right. Baker said that Williams was
riding beside him.
So, he was confused about where the other cycles were. Those cycles were
not next to each other. They were on the left and right side of the
dignitaries cars.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Motorcade%20Route/Item%2015.pdf
Don't be silly. Baker knew who his partner was.
Did you bother reading Todd Vaughan's excellent work on the motorcade
vehicles?
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Motorcade%20Route/Item%2015.pdf
Baker
mistakenly_identifies McLain as L.W. Williams in his Warren
Commission testimony (3H268).
Never rely on motorcade researchers. Baker knew who his partner was.
bigdog
2019-10-05 20:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Interesting stuff. I like how it shows the various photographers and when
they took their shots. I also liked that you kept it going with the press
busses. I've always wondered how far back they were and now I have some
idea.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-06 18:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Nice try, but there are a couple improvements you should make.
It would look better if you could make the video bigger and put the
legends to the LEFT of the screen and no right margin.
It is hard to read on some monitors.

Maybe it's just me, but I am not a fan of Vimeo.
I would like to be able to pause, expand or zoom in.
It appears that your plat is based on the HSCA map.
It is not critical to your animation,but the HSCA map was incorrect and
I corrected it. You are free to use my corrected map ad liberatum.
Loading Image...

NB: Revised 6 March 1981
NB: date of revision, not name of author

And remember that the HSCA survey was made in 1978 and a couple of
things were changed in minor ways since 1963.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-08 02:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Nice try, but there are a couple improvements you should make.
It would look better if you could make the video bigger and put the
legends to the LEFT of the screen and no right margin.
It is hard to read on some monitors.
Maybe it's just me, but I am not a fan of Vimeo.
I would like to be able to pause, expand or zoom in.
It appears that your plat is based on the HSCA map.
It is not critical to your animation,but the HSCA map was incorrect and
I corrected it. You are free to use my corrected map ad liberatum.
http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/Dealey_Plaza/Topo%20DP.gif
NB: Revised 6 March 1981
NB: date of revision, not name of author
And remember that the HSCA survey was made in 1978 and a couple of
things were changed in minor ways since 1963.
I will look at reworking the positions of the text boxes to see if its
possible to make things clearer. Its a tricky trade off because the text
needs to be large enough to read, but not too large because otherwise it
will take over the animation. I shall experiment over the coming weeks
and see what is possible.

Zooming into the video would be tricky, so the only option is to maximize
the video using the button by the "Vimeo" text towards the bottom right.
Alternatively you can zoom into some of the sample frames which I have put
into the handbook here:

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf

If you go to appendix D you can zoom into the frames at a much higher
resolution than the video. There are also some explanations and
references to photos which helps explain some of the judgements I have
used in the work.

The map is indeed partly based on the HSCA survey as you suspected. If
you check out page 15 of the handbook you will see that one of the
references for this is none other than the map from the Puzzle Palace
website! As you say, some of the items in the Plaza changed after 1963,
which I mention in section 4.2 of the handbook.
Bud
2019-10-08 16:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Nice try, but there are a couple improvements you should make.
It would look better if you could make the video bigger and put the
legends to the LEFT of the screen and no right margin.
It is hard to read on some monitors.
You aren`t going to bitch about the font?

It looked great, especially if you full size it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Maybe it's just me, but I am not a fan of Vimeo.
I would like to be able to pause, expand or zoom in.
It appears that your plat is based on the HSCA map.
It is not critical to your animation,but the HSCA map was incorrect and
I corrected it. You are free to use my corrected map ad liberatum.
http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/Dealey_Plaza/Topo%20DP.gif
NB: Revised 6 March 1981
NB: date of revision, not name of author
And remember that the HSCA survey was made in 1978 and a couple of
things were changed in minor ways since 1963.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-09 00:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bud
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
Nice try, but there are a couple improvements you should make.
It would look better if you could make the video bigger and put the
legends to the LEFT of the screen and no right margin.
It is hard to read on some monitors.
You aren`t going to bitch about the font?
That would be rude.
I could bitch about the colors, but that would be rude.
Post by Bud
It looked great, especially if you full size it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Maybe it's just me, but I am not a fan of Vimeo.
I would like to be able to pause, expand or zoom in.
It appears that your plat is based on the HSCA map.
It is not critical to your animation,but the HSCA map was incorrect and
I corrected it. You are free to use my corrected map ad liberatum.
http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/Dealey_Plaza/Topo%20DP.gif
NB: Revised 6 March 1981
NB: date of revision, not name of author
And remember that the HSCA survey was made in 1978 and a couple of
things were changed in minor ways since 1963.
BT George
2019-10-08 16:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Discovery Channel and discussed on his website.:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-09 00:46:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Steve Barber
2019-10-10 02:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Oh yes...yes...we know. Everyone is wrong except you. Bullshit!
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-11 20:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Oh yes...yes...we know. Everyone is wrong except you. Bullshit!
I never said that. And I never said that YOU are always wrong.
You got the crosstalk pretty much correct.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-10 22:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
a few times in the technical reference handbook here:

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf

If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.

As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-12 01:03:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?

Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
Mark Tyler
2019-10-13 01:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.

I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-14 01:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.

The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!

I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.

It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
Mark Tyler
2019-10-17 01:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.

A direct proof would be:
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.

The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
matching patterns in 2 above become moot because:

A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.

I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.

The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?

The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).

Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
19efppp
2019-10-18 01:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-19 13:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
So you are saying that someone shot JFK BEFORE he got to Dealey Plaza? Or
that after the shots in Dealey Plaza that killed him, someone kept firing
more shots. Why?
Post by 19efppp
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
No, wrong sounds.
We can see a 3-sheel cycle going down Main Street after the
assassination. So is your theory that they were shooting at him?
Post by 19efppp
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
Vicinity is not close enough. The matches on the Dictabelt are only for
Dealey Plaza. Show me YOUR matches.
Post by 19efppp
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
Silly. Did you debunk the Kent State shooting? NO? Too lazy?
Mark Tyler
2019-10-19 22:51:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
I agree. The dictabelt needed to be examined and explored, just as the
HSCA scientists did. However, once reliable evidence debunked it in the
1980's and later, that part of the case becomes nothing more than a
historical red herring.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-21 04:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
I agree. The dictabelt needed to be examined and explored, just as the
HSCA scientists did. However, once reliable evidence debunked it in the
That is false. There was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics.
If you mean th Ramsey Report, I pointed out their errors:

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rebuttal.htm
Post by Mark Tyler
1980's and later, that part of the case becomes nothing more than a
historical red herring.
Steve Barber
2019-10-22 05:08:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
I agree. The dictabelt needed to be examined and explored, just as the
HSCA scientists did. However, once reliable evidence debunked it in the
That is false. There was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rebuttal.htm
Post by Mark Tyler
1980's and later, that part of the case becomes nothing more than a
historical red herring.
You pointed out nothing except your opinions. This is why no one of
authority is the least bit interested in what you point out in your silly
report. It's worthless drivel.

You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!

You can say "There is/was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics"
till the world ends, but that is just your silly opinion, and your opinion
proves nothing but that you have an opinion! That, and that alone, is a
fact!
Mark Tyler
2019-10-23 02:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
I agree. The dictabelt needed to be examined and explored, just as the
HSCA scientists did. However, once reliable evidence debunked it in the
That is false. There was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rebuttal.htm
Post by Mark Tyler
1980's and later, that part of the case becomes nothing more than a
historical red herring.
You pointed out nothing except your opinions. This is why no one of
authority is the least bit interested in what you point out in your silly
report. It's worthless drivel.
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
You can say "There is/was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics"
till the world ends, but that is just your silly opinion, and your opinion
proves nothing but that you have an opinion! That, and that alone, is a
fact!
While suggestions of Zapruder film alteration seem too elaborate to be
plausible (a la Fetzer/Costella), I was keen to examine possible frame
suppression because Orville Nix did mention some of his frames went
missing in his film interview for Rush to Judgment.

In the end I found that the Zapruder film matched Nix and Muchmore almost
exactly after examining each of the frames. Ergo, if there was frame
suppression it must have affected all of the films; or conversely the
films are all authentic and complete.

I did briefly think there was a timing anomaly with the Wiegman film of
about 2-3 seconds, but I concluded that his film was recorded at 28 FPS
instead of the normal 24 FPS for 16mm films of the time. Dale Myers
mentioned 24 FPS in his 2007-2010 report, but my animation and analysis
proves that circa 28 FPS is correct as it fits in with the chronology of
the crime scene.

For a longer and more detailed explanation of my research check out
section C of the handbook here:

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf

In short, I found no evidence of: film frame suppression; film tampering;
or contradictions between the witnesses and the films or photos.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-23 16:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
I agree. The dictabelt needed to be examined and explored, just as the
HSCA scientists did. However, once reliable evidence debunked it in the
That is false. There was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rebuttal.htm
Post by Mark Tyler
1980's and later, that part of the case becomes nothing more than a
historical red herring.
You pointed out nothing except your opinions. This is why no one of
authority is the least bit interested in what you point out in your silly
report. It's worthless drivel.
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
I was the first. Only because he was not allowed to publish his work due
to his contract. But the proofs are almost identical and he endorsed my
work. One major difference is that I had tons of real Double 8mm home
movies taken by ordinary people that showed the same ghost images.
Post by Steve Barber
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
NO, his work was secret and came out months after mine.
Post by Steve Barber
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
Yes, I do. My essay came first and included corroboration of the ghost
images that no one else had.


Loading Image...
Post by Steve Barber
You can say "There is/was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics"
till the world ends, but that is just your silly opinion, and your opinion
Not just me. Are you forgetting about BBN, W&A, Blakey, and Don Thoms,
and maybe thousands of other researchers?
Post by Steve Barber
proves nothing but that you have an opinion! That, and that alone, is a
fact!
Steve Barber
2019-10-24 00:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
I agree. The dictabelt needed to be examined and explored, just as the
HSCA scientists did. However, once reliable evidence debunked it in the
That is false. There was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rebuttal.htm
Post by Mark Tyler
1980's and later, that part of the case becomes nothing more than a
historical red herring.
You pointed out nothing except your opinions. This is why no one of
authority is the least bit interested in what you point out in your silly
report. It's worthless drivel.
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
I was the first. Only because he was not allowed to publish his work due
to his contract. But the proofs are almost identical and he endorsed my
work. One major difference is that I had tons of real Double 8mm home
movies taken by ordinary people that showed the same ghost images.
Post by Steve Barber
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
NO, his work was secret and came out months after mine.
Post by Steve Barber
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
Yes, I do. My essay came first and included corroboration of the ghost
images that no one else had.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/football.jpg
Post by Steve Barber
You can say "There is/was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics"
till the world ends, but that is just your silly opinion, and your opinion
Not just me. Are you forgetting about BBN, W&A, Blakey, and Don Thoms,
and maybe thousands of other researchers?
Post by Steve Barber
proves nothing but that you have an opinion! That, and that alone, is a
fact!
I could care less about BBN and W&A. Micheal O'Dell exposed the errors
produced by W&A in a report that was published in Mel Ayton and David Von
Pein's book "Beyone Reasonable Doubt".

BBN's conclusions were disproved by myself and the Ramsey panel.
Something you absolutely refuse to acknowledge. Now you're even trying to
say that Decker spoke the words that were picked up by the open mic right
after the shots, when nothing could be further from the truth. Any excuse
you can come up, no matter how weak, you'll put it out there.

Blakey has nothing to do with the acoustics, other than that he supports
BBN's conclusion.

Don Thomas---don't make me laugh! He has been rebutted twice because of
careless "work". Michael O'Dell disproved his 2001 paper, which Thomas
accepted as a fact, from Michael, admitting his error.

Thmoas' 2nd attempt to keep the shots on the Dictabelt also failed largely.
His claim that a ch. 2 transmission made by police officer N.T. Fisher was
picked up by the open mic, and recorded on the Dictabelt just before the
"shots" also fell flat on its face. The only time you support science is
when it's to your benefit. Former members of the Ramsey panel, as well as
Michael O'Dell ,examined Thomas' second paper, and it, too, was proved wrong.
http://jfk-records.com/ScienceAndJustice_45%284%29_207-226%282005%29.pdf?fbclid=IwAR07_WRAXuk8DJH4Gjh2o5a8nQd2VG9w2G0pFQgALVBrZR25MEkRbEim41Q

I provided additional information as proof that the transmission which
Thomas believes to be N.T. Fisher just 3 seconds before the "shots",
cannot be crosstalk because the transmission Thomas claims is N.T.
Fisher's speech is accompanied with heterodyne tones, proving that the
speech is spoken by an unidentified officer speaking on channel 1 while
the microphone is stuck open:

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2007/07/of-crosstalk-and-bells-rebuttal-to-don.html

Don Thomas's work is not credible. Period.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-25 16:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
I agree. The dictabelt needed to be examined and explored, just as the
HSCA scientists did. However, once reliable evidence debunked it in the
That is false. There was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rebuttal.htm
Post by Mark Tyler
1980's and later, that part of the case becomes nothing more than a
historical red herring.
You pointed out nothing except your opinions. This is why no one of
authority is the least bit interested in what you point out in your silly
report. It's worthless drivel.
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
I was the first. Only because he was not allowed to publish his work due
to his contract. But the proofs are almost identical and he endorsed my
work. One major difference is that I had tons of real Double 8mm home
movies taken by ordinary people that showed the same ghost images.
Post by Steve Barber
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
NO, his work was secret and came out months after mine.
Post by Steve Barber
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
Yes, I do. My essay came first and included corroboration of the ghost
images that no one else had.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/football.jpg
Post by Steve Barber
You can say "There is/was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics"
till the world ends, but that is just your silly opinion, and your opinion
Not just me. Are you forgetting about BBN, W&A, Blakey, and Don Thoms,
and maybe thousands of other researchers?
Post by Steve Barber
proves nothing but that you have an opinion! That, and that alone, is a
fact!
I could care less about BBN and W&A. Micheal O'Dell exposed the errors
He used to post here and I posted out where he was wrong.
Post by Steve Barber
produced by W&A in a report that was published in Mel Ayton and David Von
Pein's book "Beyone Reasonable Doubt".
All WC defenders who are part of the cover-up.
Post by Steve Barber
BBN's conclusions were disproved by myself and the Ramsey panel.
False. I showed how they made mistakes.
Post by Steve Barber
Something you absolutely refuse to acknowledge. Now you're even trying to
say that Decker spoke the words that were picked up by the open mic right
after the shots, when nothing could be further from the truth. Any excuse
you can come up, no matter how weak, you'll put it out there.
You seem confused about what I think, because you refuse to read my essay.
Post by Steve Barber
Blakey has nothing to do with the acoustics, other than that he supports
BBN's conclusion.
He had a lot to do with it. He was the Chief Counsel.
Post by Steve Barber
Don Thomas---don't make me laugh! He has been rebutted twice because of
careless "work". Michael O'Dell disproved his 2001 paper, which Thomas
accepted as a fact, from Michael, admitting his error.
No.
Post by Steve Barber
Thmoas' 2nd attempt to keep the shots on the Dictabelt also failed largely.
What? What do you claim those noises are?
Post by Steve Barber
His claim that a ch. 2 transmission made by police officer N.T. Fisher was
picked up by the open mic, and recorded on the Dictabelt just before the
"shots" also fell flat on its face. The only time you support science is
when it's to your benefit. Former members of the Ramsey panel, as well as
You can't acccept any science. Why didn't you challenge the Kent State
massacre analysis at the time?
Post by Steve Barber
Michael O'Dell ,examined Thomas' second paper, and it, too, was proved wrong.
http://jfk-records.com/ScienceAndJustice_45%284%29_207-226%282005%29.pdf?fbclid=IwAR07_WRAXuk8DJH4Gjh2o5a8nQd2VG9w2G0pFQgALVBrZR25MEkRbEim41Q
I provided additional information as proof that the transmission which
Thomas believes to be N.T. Fisher just 3 seconds before the "shots",
cannot be crosstalk because the transmission Thomas claims is N.T.
Fisher's speech is accompanied with heterodyne tones, proving that the
speech is spoken by an unidentified officer speaking on channel 1 while
You make no sense.
Post by Steve Barber
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2007/07/of-crosstalk-and-bells-rebuttal-to-don.html
Don Thomas's work is not credible. Period.
You are not credible.
Steve Barber
2019-10-24 00:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
I agree. The dictabelt needed to be examined and explored, just as the
HSCA scientists did. However, once reliable evidence debunked it in the
That is false. There was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rebuttal.htm
Post by Mark Tyler
1980's and later, that part of the case becomes nothing more than a
historical red herring.
You pointed out nothing except your opinions. This is why no one of
authority is the least bit interested in what you point out in your silly
report. It's worthless drivel.
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
I was the first. Only because he was not allowed to publish his work due
to his contract. But the proofs are almost identical and he endorsed my
work. One major difference is that I had tons of real Double 8mm home
movies taken by ordinary people that showed the same ghost images.
Post by Steve Barber
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
NO, his work was secret and came out months after mine.
Post by Steve Barber
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
Yes, I do. My essay came first and included corroboration of the ghost
images that no one else had.
I don't believe a word from you, due to your past within this newsgroup
of posting false claims and false information.

The world knows that it was Zavada who proved the Zapruder film is
authentic. Had you been the person who proved it, your name would have
been mentioned in Alexandria Zapruder's book. I am quite certain that
Roland Zavada would not appreciate your taking credit for something he
did, and is known to have done.
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/football.jpg
Post by Steve Barber
You can say "There is/was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics"
till the world ends, but that is just your silly opinion, and your opinion
Not just me. Are you forgetting about BBN, W&A, Blakey, and Don Thoms,
and maybe thousands of other researchers?
Post by Steve Barber
proves nothing but that you have an opinion! That, and that alone, is a
fact!
John McAdams
2019-10-24 01:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve Barber
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
I was the first. Only because he was not allowed to publish his work due
to his contract. But the proofs are almost identical and he endorsed my
work. One major difference is that I had tons of real Double 8mm home
movies taken by ordinary people that showed the same ghost images.
Post by Steve Barber
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
NO, his work was secret and came out months after mine.
Post by Steve Barber
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
Yes, I do. My essay came first and included corroboration of the ghost
images that no one else had.
I don't believe a word from you, due to your past within this newsgroup
of posting false claims and false information.
The world knows that it was Zavada who proved the Zapruder film is
authentic. Had you been the person who proved it, your name would have
been mentioned in Alexandria Zapruder's book. I am quite certain that
Roland Zavada would not appreciate your taking credit for something he
did, and is known to have done.
I don't mind giving Tony credit for a nice piece of work. In fact,
his page is listed here.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bestof.htm

Of course, he should not be claiming to be *the* person who proved the
Zapruder film authentic. He just made a good contribution to the
cause.



.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Steve Barber
2019-10-24 17:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McAdams
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve Barber
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
I was the first. Only because he was not allowed to publish his work due
to his contract. But the proofs are almost identical and he endorsed my
work. One major difference is that I had tons of real Double 8mm home
movies taken by ordinary people that showed the same ghost images.
Post by Steve Barber
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
NO, his work was secret and came out months after mine.
Post by Steve Barber
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
Yes, I do. My essay came first and included corroboration of the ghost
images that no one else had.
I don't believe a word from you, due to your past within this newsgroup
of posting false claims and false information.
The world knows that it was Zavada who proved the Zapruder film is
authentic. Had you been the person who proved it, your name would have
been mentioned in Alexandria Zapruder's book. I am quite certain that
Roland Zavada would not appreciate your taking credit for something he
did, and is known to have done.
I don't mind giving Tony credit for a nice piece of work. In fact,
his page is listed here.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bestof.htm
Of course, he should not be claiming to be *the* person who proved the
Zapruder film authentic. He just made a good contribution to the
cause.
I agree 100% that his contribution was good the cause.
Post by John McAdams
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
BT George
2019-10-24 22:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McAdams
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve Barber
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
I was the first. Only because he was not allowed to publish his work due
to his contract. But the proofs are almost identical and he endorsed my
work. One major difference is that I had tons of real Double 8mm home
movies taken by ordinary people that showed the same ghost images.
Post by Steve Barber
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
NO, his work was secret and came out months after mine.
Post by Steve Barber
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
Yes, I do. My essay came first and included corroboration of the ghost
images that no one else had.
I don't believe a word from you, due to your past within this newsgroup
of posting false claims and false information.
The world knows that it was Zavada who proved the Zapruder film is
authentic. Had you been the person who proved it, your name would have
been mentioned in Alexandria Zapruder's book. I am quite certain that
Roland Zavada would not appreciate your taking credit for something he
did, and is known to have done.
I don't mind giving Tony credit for a nice piece of work. In fact,
his page is listed here.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bestof.htm
Of course, he should not be claiming to be *the* person who proved the
Zapruder film authentic. He just made a good contribution to the
cause.
Perhaps a good way to say it is that Tony's work *further* supports
Zavada's conclusions. So if one is inclined to question the work of single
expert, we have further items to support that conclusion.
Post by John McAdams
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-25 16:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McAdams
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve Barber
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
I was the first. Only because he was not allowed to publish his work due
to his contract. But the proofs are almost identical and he endorsed my
work. One major difference is that I had tons of real Double 8mm home
movies taken by ordinary people that showed the same ghost images.
Post by Steve Barber
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
NO, his work was secret and came out months after mine.
Post by Steve Barber
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
Yes, I do. My essay came first and included corroboration of the ghost
images that no one else had.
I don't believe a word from you, due to your past within this newsgroup
of posting false claims and false information.
The world knows that it was Zavada who proved the Zapruder film is
authentic. Had you been the person who proved it, your name would have
been mentioned in Alexandria Zapruder's book. I am quite certain that
Roland Zavada would not appreciate your taking credit for something he
did, and is known to have done.
I don't mind giving Tony credit for a nice piece of work. In fact,
his page is listed here.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bestof.htm
Of course, he should not be claiming to be *the* person who proved the
Zapruder film authentic. He just made a good contribution to the
cause.
Jeez, even YOU admitted that my essay came before Zavada's report.
Marsh Rule in effect.

Steve wasn't paying attention back then and doesn't know how to Google.
Post by John McAdams
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-25 16:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
There also is a conclusive case that the "shots" on the dictabelt
recording occur at the wrong time, that is, after JFK had already been
shot. So, it is both time and space that debunk the acoustic evidence
theory. And, there is also conclusive evidence that the open mic was on a
3-wheel motorcycle, and no 3-wheelers were riding through Dealey Plaza
while JFK was being shot. There were some stationary 3-wheelers in the
vicinity, but none were in motion in Dealey Plaza at that time. This is
probably the most thoroughly debunked theory of them all.
I agree. The dictabelt needed to be examined and explored, just as the
HSCA scientists did. However, once reliable evidence debunked it in the
That is false. There was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/rebuttal.htm
Post by Mark Tyler
1980's and later, that part of the case becomes nothing more than a
historical red herring.
You pointed out nothing except your opinions. This is why no one of
authority is the least bit interested in what you point out in your silly
report. It's worthless drivel.
You constantly claim it was *you* who "proved" the Zapruder film is
authentic when it wasn't *you* at all- it was Roland Zavada! Your
I was the first. Only because he was not allowed to publish his work due
to his contract. But the proofs are almost identical and he endorsed my
work. One major difference is that I had tons of real Double 8mm home
movies taken by ordinary people that showed the same ghost images.
Post by Steve Barber
constant patting yourself on the back (for something you didn't do) didn't
sit well at all where the Zapruder film is concerned, with Alexandria
Zapruder, author of "Twenty-Six Seconds: A Personal History of the
Zapruder Film". Had *you* been the person who proved the film is
authentic, your name--not Roland Zavada's--would be mentioned as the
person who proved the film authentic. Your name is mentioned nowhere in
NO, his work was secret and came out months after mine.
Post by Steve Barber
the book. What you *did* do is share something with Zavada that he agreed
with. This, however doesn't mean that you have the right to take credit
for something you didn't do, when it wasn't you who proved the film's
authentic! Zavada did it!
Yes, I do. My essay came first and included corroboration of the ghost
images that no one else had.
I don't believe a word from you, due to your past within this newsgroup
of posting false claims and false information.
Wrong. It is only because you work for the cover-up.
Post by Steve Barber
The world knows that it was Zavada who proved the Zapruder film is
authentic. Had you been the person who proved it, your name would have
been mentioned in Alexandria Zapruder's book. I am quite certain that
No, don't be silly. She wasn't even aware of my work.
Post by Steve Barber
Roland Zavada would not appreciate your taking credit for something he
did, and is known to have done.
He did and he wrote to me thanking me for my work.
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/football.jpg
Post by Steve Barber
You can say "There is/was no reliable evidence to debunk the acoustics"
till the world ends, but that is just your silly opinion, and your opinion
Not just me. Are you forgetting about BBN, W&A, Blakey, and Don Thoms,
and maybe thousands of other researchers?
Post by Steve Barber
proves nothing but that you have an opinion! That, and that alone, is a
fact!
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-18 13:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
BT George
2019-10-19 00:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Mark Tyler
2019-10-19 22:53:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!

Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.

I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.

However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-21 04:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a fake?
Can you explain in detail how they could fake it? Fire new shots in
Dealey Plaza?
Post by Mark Tyler
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can not list your
mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4 shots.

Even McAdams can admit that there were very few witnbesses who heard
exact 4 shots. Are you calling McAdams a liar?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm


Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html

Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3 shots would sound
like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on the weather.


Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
Mark Tyler
2019-10-23 02:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a fake?
Can you explain in detail how they could fake it? Fire new shots in
Dealey Plaza?
Post by Mark Tyler
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can not list your
mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4 shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few witnbesses who heard
exact 4 shots. Are you calling McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3 shots would sound
like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the eyewitnesses are
collectively too confused to be certain either way, as all of the analysis
by Josiah Thompson, John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness statements and look for
coherent patterns that corroborate when the shots were fired.

By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots were fired: Z185,
Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for this certainty is presented in my
book here in section 6:

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf

Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the fatal shot, and
the whole shooting took around 12 seconds (enough time for Oswald or
anyone else to operate a bolt action gun). There is far more evidence for
the existence of this final shot than the mythical early missed shot at
Z160 or before.

I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without compromising
their core beliefs about the number of shots or who fired them.

Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA dictabelt, and
the so called early missed shot, I will rile anyone who emotionally clings
to these sacred cows. This doesn't trouble me because my intended
audience is those with an open and inquiring mind.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-24 00:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a fake?
Can you explain in detail how they could fake it? Fire new shots in
Dealey Plaza?
Post by Mark Tyler
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can not list your
mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4 shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few witnbesses who heard
exact 4 shots. Are you calling McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3 shots would sound
like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the eyewitnesses are
collectively too confused to be certain either way, as all of the analysis
by Josiah Thompson, John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness statements and look for
coherent patterns that corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots were fired: Z185,
Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for this certainty is presented in my
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the fatal shot, and
the whole shooting took around 12 seconds (enough time for Oswald or
anyone else to operate a bolt action gun). There is far more evidence for
the existence of this final shot than the mythical early missed shot at
Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that there was a 5th
shot. I hope that we can agrree that there was afatal head shot at Z_313.
I think the last shot was after that at 328.

In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was caused by the
Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one shell.
Post by Mark Tyler
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find something that
everyone else missed.
Post by Mark Tyler
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without compromising
their core beliefs about the number of shots or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may see something
of value in it though. So, thanks for the effort.
Post by Mark Tyler
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA dictabelt, and
the so called early missed shot, I will rile anyone who emotionally clings
to these sacred cows. This doesn't trouble me because my intended
audience is those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to endorse
anything.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-26 01:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a fake?
Can you explain in detail how they could fake it? Fire new shots in
Dealey Plaza?
Post by Mark Tyler
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can not list your
mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4 shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few witnbesses who heard
exact 4 shots. Are you calling McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3 shots would sound
like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the eyewitnesses are
collectively too confused to be certain either way, as all of the analysis
by Josiah Thompson, John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness statements and look for
coherent patterns that corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots were fired: Z185,
Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for this certainty is presented in my
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the fatal shot, and
the whole shooting took around 12 seconds (enough time for Oswald or
anyone else to operate a bolt action gun). There is far more evidence for
the existence of this final shot than the mythical early missed shot at
Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that there was a 5th
shot. I hope that we can agrree that there was afatal head shot at Z_313.
I think the last shot was after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses who are
adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary Moorman; Jean Hill;
Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack
Franzen; Charles Brehm; J.W. Foster.

Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the driver of the
Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer Robert Jackson who
corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to the positions of the cars at the
point they heard final shot. The animation (which is based on photos and
films), proves that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.

I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be wrong or
confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses were independently
mistaken in exactly the same way seems a little implausible to me.

I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its possible to
imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a second of the one at Z313
(e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere else like the sixth floor). However,
the eyewitnesses would be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the
human ear would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.

Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence sitting must
kick in here, so I have to say there may or may not have been a shot at
Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was caused by the
Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered before. It
would certainly explain why the gap between the first two shots was longer
than expected (i.e. the assassin struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds),
while the final gap was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems).
Good spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what happened!

With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously amend his website
description of you to "capable of brilliant work" from the grudging
"capable of occasional near-brilliant work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find something that
everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't expected it when I
started the animation, but I can't think of any other explanation for the
eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without compromising
their core beliefs about the number of shots or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may see something
of value in it though. So, thanks for the effort.
Post by Mark Tyler
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA dictabelt, and
the so called early missed shot, I will rile anyone who emotionally clings
to these sacred cows. This doesn't trouble me because my intended
audience is those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to endorse
anything.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-27 17:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a fake?
Can you explain in detail how they could fake it? Fire new shots in
Dealey Plaza?
Post by Mark Tyler
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can not list your
mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4 shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few witnbesses who heard
exact 4 shots. Are you calling McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3 shots would sound
like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the eyewitnesses are
collectively too confused to be certain either way, as all of the analysis
by Josiah Thompson, John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness statements and look for
coherent patterns that corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots were fired: Z185,
Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for this certainty is presented in my
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the fatal shot, and
the whole shooting took around 12 seconds (enough time for Oswald or
anyone else to operate a bolt action gun). There is far more evidence for
the existence of this final shot than the mythical early missed shot at
Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that there was a 5th
shot. I hope that we can agrree that there was afatal head shot at Z_313.
I think the last shot was after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses who are
adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary Moorman; Jean Hill;
Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack
Franzen; Charles Brehm; J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the acoustical
evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which I believe in.
Post by Mark Tyler
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the driver of the
Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer Robert Jackson who
corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to the positions of the cars at the
point they heard final shot. The animation (which is based on photos and
films), proves that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when the limo
was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many years later.
Post by Mark Tyler
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be wrong or
confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses were independently
mistaken in exactly the same way seems a little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways about
different details.

NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Post by Mark Tyler
I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its possible to
imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a second of the one at Z313
(e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere else like the sixth floor). However,
the eyewitnesses would be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the
human ear would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then the rifle
jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected that shell the grassy
knoll shooter had to take the insurance shot and there was not enough time
for the TSBD shooter to see that JFK was shot in the head and react by not
pulling the trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Post by Mark Tyler
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence sitting must
kick in here, so I have to say there may or may not have been a shot at
Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was caused by the
Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered before. It
would certainly explain why the gap between the first two shots was longer
than expected (i.e. the assassin struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds),
while the final gap was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems).
Good spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously amend his website
description of you to "capable of brilliant work" from the grudging
"capable of occasional near-brilliant work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find something that
everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't expected it when I
started the animation, but I can't think of any other explanation for the
eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without compromising
their core beliefs about the number of shots or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may see something
of value in it though. So, thanks for the effort.
Post by Mark Tyler
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA dictabelt, and
the so called early missed shot, I will rile anyone who emotionally clings
to these sacred cows. This doesn't trouble me because my intended
audience is those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to endorse
anything.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-29 23:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a fake?
Can you explain in detail how they could fake it? Fire new shots in
Dealey Plaza?
Post by Mark Tyler
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can not list your
mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4 shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few witnbesses who heard
exact 4 shots. Are you calling McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3 shots would sound
like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the eyewitnesses are
collectively too confused to be certain either way, as all of the analysis
by Josiah Thompson, John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness statements and look for
coherent patterns that corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots were fired: Z185,
Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for this certainty is presented in my
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the fatal shot, and
the whole shooting took around 12 seconds (enough time for Oswald or
anyone else to operate a bolt action gun). There is far more evidence for
the existence of this final shot than the mythical early missed shot at
Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that there was a 5th
shot. I hope that we can agrree that there was afatal head shot at Z_313.
I think the last shot was after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses who are
adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary Moorman; Jean Hill;
Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack
Franzen; Charles Brehm; J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the acoustical
evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which I believe in.
Post by Mark Tyler
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the driver of the
Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer Robert Jackson who
corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to the positions of the cars at the
point they heard final shot. The animation (which is based on photos and
films), proves that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when the limo
was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many years later.
Post by Mark Tyler
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be wrong or
confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses were independently
mistaken in exactly the same way seems a little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways about
different details.
NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Sure, witnesses can be wrong in all sorts of weird ways, so to rely on any
single witness would be rather weak when we have literally hundreds of
witnesses in Dealey Plaza. What is more robust is to corroborate multiple
witnesses who describe the same thing independently from a different point
of view.

Once you get to over a dozen witnesses describing the same event, at the
same time, with one of the witnesses being hit by shrapnel from a straight
line trajectory from a known gunman position, surely one is entitled to
exclaim "Bingo!".
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its possible to
imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a second of the one at Z313
(e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere else like the sixth floor). However,
the eyewitnesses would be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the
human ear would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then the rifle
jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected that shell the grassy
knoll shooter had to take the insurance shot and there was not enough time
for the TSBD shooter to see that JFK was shot in the head and react by not
pulling the trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Post by Mark Tyler
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence sitting must
kick in here, so I have to say there may or may not have been a shot at
Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was caused by the
Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered before. It
would certainly explain why the gap between the first two shots was longer
than expected (i.e. the assassin struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds),
while the final gap was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems).
Good spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously amend his website
description of you to "capable of brilliant work" from the grudging
"capable of occasional near-brilliant work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find something that
everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't expected it when I
started the animation, but I can't think of any other explanation for the
eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without compromising
their core beliefs about the number of shots or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may see something
of value in it though. So, thanks for the effort.
Post by Mark Tyler
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA dictabelt, and
the so called early missed shot, I will rile anyone who emotionally clings
to these sacred cows. This doesn't trouble me because my intended
audience is those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to endorse
anything.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-30 18:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a fake?
Can you explain in detail how they could fake it? Fire new shots in
Dealey Plaza?
Post by Mark Tyler
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can not list your
mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4 shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few witnbesses who heard
exact 4 shots. Are you calling McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3 shots would sound
like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the eyewitnesses are
collectively too confused to be certain either way, as all of the analysis
by Josiah Thompson, John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness statements and look for
coherent patterns that corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots were fired: Z185,
Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for this certainty is presented in my
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the fatal shot, and
the whole shooting took around 12 seconds (enough time for Oswald or
anyone else to operate a bolt action gun). There is far more evidence for
the existence of this final shot than the mythical early missed shot at
Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that there was a 5th
shot. I hope that we can agrree that there was afatal head shot at Z_313.
I think the last shot was after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses who are
adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary Moorman; Jean Hill;
Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack
Franzen; Charles Brehm; J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the acoustical
evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which I believe in.
Post by Mark Tyler
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the driver of the
Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer Robert Jackson who
corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to the positions of the cars at the
point they heard final shot. The animation (which is based on photos and
films), proves that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when the limo
was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many years later.
Post by Mark Tyler
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be wrong or
confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses were independently
mistaken in exactly the same way seems a little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways about
different details.
NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Sure, witnesses can be wrong in all sorts of weird ways, so to rely on any
single witness would be rather weak when we have literally hundreds of
witnesses in Dealey Plaza. What is more robust is to corroborate multiple
witnesses who describe the same thing independently from a different point
of view.
Once you get to over a dozen witnesses describing the same event, at the
Or some kook can simply lie about what the winesses said, as I point out
in my essay.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Mantik1.htm
Post by Mark Tyler
same time, with one of the witnesses being hit by shrapnel from a straight
line trajectory from a known gunman position, surely one is entitled to
exclaim "Bingo!".
hope you mean Tague. He was not in a straight line and he was not hit
directly. Some fragment hit the curb NEAR him and threw up debris.
Show me which fragment and its trajectory.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its possible to
imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a second of the one at Z313
(e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere else like the sixth floor). However,
the eyewitnesses would be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the
human ear would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then the rifle
jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected that shell the grassy
knoll shooter had to take the insurance shot and there was not enough time
for the TSBD shooter to see that JFK was shot in the head and react by not
pulling the trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Post by Mark Tyler
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence sitting must
kick in here, so I have to say there may or may not have been a shot at
Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was caused by the
Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered before. It
would certainly explain why the gap between the first two shots was longer
than expected (i.e. the assassin struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds),
while the final gap was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems).
Good spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously amend his website
description of you to "capable of brilliant work" from the grudging
"capable of occasional near-brilliant work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find something that
everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't expected it when I
started the animation, but I can't think of any other explanation for the
eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without compromising
their core beliefs about the number of shots or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may see something
of value in it though. So, thanks for the effort.
Post by Mark Tyler
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA dictabelt, and
the so called early missed shot, I will rile anyone who emotionally clings
to these sacred cows. This doesn't trouble me because my intended
audience is those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to endorse
anything.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-31 22:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a fake?
Can you explain in detail how they could fake it? Fire new shots in
Dealey Plaza?
Post by Mark Tyler
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can not list your
mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4 shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few witnbesses who heard
exact 4 shots. Are you calling McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3 shots would sound
like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the eyewitnesses are
collectively too confused to be certain either way, as all of the analysis
by Josiah Thompson, John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness statements and look for
coherent patterns that corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots were fired: Z185,
Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for this certainty is presented in my
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the fatal shot, and
the whole shooting took around 12 seconds (enough time for Oswald or
anyone else to operate a bolt action gun). There is far more evidence for
the existence of this final shot than the mythical early missed shot at
Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that there was a 5th
shot. I hope that we can agrree that there was afatal head shot at Z_313.
I think the last shot was after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses who are
adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary Moorman; Jean Hill;
Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack
Franzen; Charles Brehm; J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the acoustical
evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which I believe in.
Post by Mark Tyler
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the driver of the
Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer Robert Jackson who
corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to the positions of the cars at the
point they heard final shot. The animation (which is based on photos and
films), proves that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when the limo
was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many years later.
Post by Mark Tyler
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be wrong or
confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses were independently
mistaken in exactly the same way seems a little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways about
different details.
NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Sure, witnesses can be wrong in all sorts of weird ways, so to rely on any
single witness would be rather weak when we have literally hundreds of
witnesses in Dealey Plaza. What is more robust is to corroborate multiple
witnesses who describe the same thing independently from a different point
of view.
Once you get to over a dozen witnesses describing the same event, at the
Or some kook can simply lie about what the winesses said, as I point out
in my essay.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Mantik1.htm
I agree with you on this subject. Although the Limo slowed down and the
brake lights were lit, it never came to a stop. My measurements and the
animation suggest it slowed from about 13 MPH down to 7 MPH after the
first shot, before it accelerated away after the fatal head shot. You
quoted 12 MPH down to 8 MPH, but whats 1 MPH between you, me, and Luis
Alvarez?!

Debunking factual inaccuracies is very important, so thanks for taking the
time to do so in that article.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
same time, with one of the witnesses being hit by shrapnel from a straight
line trajectory from a known gunman position, surely one is entitled to
exclaim "Bingo!".
hope you mean Tague. He was not in a straight line and he was not hit
directly. Some fragment hit the curb NEAR him and threw up debris.
Show me which fragment and its trajectory.
The trajectory is contained in the animation. If you want a static
diagram have a look here in appendix D.8:

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf

Its not just a random trajectory either, as the time in the sequence is
located by over a dozen witnesses as previously mentioned. The position
of the Limo is known by triangulating between the Nix film and the Altgens
7 photo. The position of Tague is known as being 15 feet away from the
bridge abutment.

The shot missed due to the car speeding away and turning to the right, and
then the bullet hit the road with shrapnel flying in Tague's direction
(one part hitting his cheek, and some lead hitting the kerb in front of
him). This whole scenario is explained by basic physics, and requires no
special or odd circumstances.

The book also includes a photo from the snipers perch which illustrates
how it happened on the day. Its a neat, clean, and simple explanation
which leaves no awkward loose ends or unexplained physical or witness
evidence. Voila!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its possible to
imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a second of the one at Z313
(e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere else like the sixth floor). However,
the eyewitnesses would be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the
human ear would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then the rifle
jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected that shell the grassy
knoll shooter had to take the insurance shot and there was not enough time
for the TSBD shooter to see that JFK was shot in the head and react by not
pulling the trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Post by Mark Tyler
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence sitting must
kick in here, so I have to say there may or may not have been a shot at
Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was caused by the
Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered before. It
would certainly explain why the gap between the first two shots was longer
than expected (i.e. the assassin struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds),
while the final gap was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems).
Good spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously amend his website
description of you to "capable of brilliant work" from the grudging
"capable of occasional near-brilliant work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find something that
everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't expected it when I
started the animation, but I can't think of any other explanation for the
eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without compromising
their core beliefs about the number of shots or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may see something
of value in it though. So, thanks for the effort.
Post by Mark Tyler
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA dictabelt, and
the so called early missed shot, I will rile anyone who emotionally clings
to these sacred cows. This doesn't trouble me because my intended
audience is those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to endorse
anything.
Anthony Marsh
2019-11-02 18:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Thursday, 24 October 2019 01:46:30 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Monday, 21 October 2019 05:49:24 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 19 October 2019 01:58:14 UTC+1, BT
On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 8:49:13 AM UTC-5,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Monday, 14 October 2019 02:58:47 UTC+1,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 12 October 2019 02:03:43
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:46:10
On 10/8/2019 12:15 PM, BT George
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at
2:32:43 PM UTC-5, Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation
that recreates the motorcade
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or
has suggestions for improvements,
please let me know.
You should check your work with
Dale Myers. His work to synchronize
the assassination films would allow
him to verify your timings as shown
on the Discovery Channel and
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about
some of the times. He faked some of
them to try to discredit the
acoustical evidence. I always had
long running disagreements with Bob
Cutler about the times.
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
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a few times in the technical reference
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
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see where I referred to him. In a
nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have
recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you
claim that no shots were recorded or that
the shots were recorded in a different
location or that a different cycle
recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists
described a sequence of events that was
wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere
near where they said the microphone needed
to be. Without this, the 95% probability
of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you
ever read the HSCA one of the dissenters said
that the shots were real, but came from far
away and the sound go picked up in Dealey
Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe
you could make up a theory that the
microphone was in a cop car instead of on a
motorcycle. But if you actually LISTEN to the
tape you can hear the tires squeal as it
rounds a corner, shifting gears, and a spark
just before he turns on his siren and then
the other sirens around him slowing down and
speeding. None of that is possible with a cop
car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza.
Try matching to any other location. I double
dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your
wanting to protect the conspirators, but you
can't just throw out SCIENCE.
shot from the knoll collapses because the
higher figure relies upon the specific
positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out
that their map was inaccurate. The matches
might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they
are still withing the margin of error. Ever
scientific theory has a margin of error.
I don't rule out the dictabelt as
potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the
handbook the closest vehicle to the alleged
microphone positions was the Mayor's car,
but that seems a stretch and it doesn't
explain the motorbike noise which must have
come from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm
the cycle is not in the middle of the street.
The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of
the Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the
Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane, not the LEFT
lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own
data disproves it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the
shots are fake or only noise? Can you or
Dale match random noise to the shots that
W&A identified? Have you used my computer
program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and
possibly unknowable. There are any number
of possible explanations for the impulses,
including: noise in the microphone, noise
on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three
wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a
match using my computer program. That idea
alone caves in and admits that it was
McLain's cycle.
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without
proper scientific corroboration we can only
speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program
to make a fit to your imaginary three wheel
cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this
imaginary three-wheel cycle is or just mark
the location on the map and then we can
figure out the Cartesian coordinates and then
plug them into the computer program.
Post by Anthony Marsh
the dictabelt. I disagree with some
parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the
bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who
never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are
productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the
end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next
version of the work. Whether this be
a book, a computer program, or a
keep on truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey
Plaza then the acoustical analysis is of value.
However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when
asked to back up your claims. If you have a cute
theory, PROVE it.
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the
crux of the issue. We shouldn't have to guess
where it was recorded, there should be a chain
of evidence that can be traced back. Sadly
this is not what the scientists did, they only
narrowly studied the sound waves on the
dictabelt compared to a re-enactment, so their
analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis,
something that people like you can not do.
A direct proof would be: 1. Prove which vehicle
had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were
positioned where the re-enactment predicted
them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were
gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report. Are you going to claim that
the test shots were not fired in Dealey Plaza?
That's what there comparing it to.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as
I and Dale Myers have proven he was over 100
feet away so this is a poor match. The only
other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we
exclude that as well then the matching patterns
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's
car.
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in
Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove
into Dealey Plaza AND after he left Dealey Plaza.
So you think the shots were fired on the Stemmons
Freeway?
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
I fully understand your belief in the
scientific and numerical analysis, but this is
a real world crime scene and the chain of
evidence in the case has not been established
so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the
proverbial "missing link", and until one is
found there is nothing to analyse other than
wishful thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world
crimes. Try to claim that BBN was wrong about
Kent State and no shots were fired.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we
can't rely on the dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of
conspiracy was not solely based on the
acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen
or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to
rubber stamp the WC. You weren't around then, I
was.
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired.
In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that
exact 4 shots were fired.
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed
the first or last one fired (e.g. Mary Moorman,
who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more
shots), lies with witness analysis rather than
acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of
witnesses saying exactly 4 shots. Ever read Six
Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether
there were 3 or 4 shots, its just that I feel the
acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA
claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a
fake? Can you explain in detail how they could fake it?
Fire new shots in Dealey Plaza?
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who
either said that they heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots
fired, but they clearly missed the first or last
one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can
not list your mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4
shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few
witnbesses who heard exact 4 shots. Are you calling
McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
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However, with the possibility of echoes and
reverberations explaining the fourth shot, its hard
to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3
shots would sound like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on
the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning
to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the
eyewitnesses are collectively too confused to be certain
either way, as all of the analysis by Josiah Thompson,
John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness
statements and look for coherent patterns that
corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots
were fired: Z185, Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for
this certainty is presented in my book here in section
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the
fatal shot, and the whole shooting took around 12 seconds
(enough time for Oswald or anyone else to operate a bolt
action gun). There is far more evidence for the
existence of this final shot than the mythical early
missed shot at Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that
there was a 5th shot. I hope that we can agrree that there
was afatal head shot at Z_313. I think the last shot was
after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses
who are adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary
Moorman; Jean Hill; Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam
Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack Franzen; Charles Brehm;
J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the
acoustical evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which
I believe in.
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the
driver of the Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer
Robert Jackson who corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to
the positions of the cars at the point they heard final shot.
The animation (which is based on photos and films), proves
that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when
the limo was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many
years later.
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be
wrong or confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses
were independently mistaken in exactly the same way seems a
little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways
about different details.
NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Sure, witnesses can be wrong in all sorts of weird ways, so to
rely on any single witness would be rather weak when we have
literally hundreds of witnesses in Dealey Plaza. What is more
robust is to corroborate multiple witnesses who describe the same
thing independently from a different point of view.
Once you get to over a dozen witnesses describing the same event, at the
Or some kook can simply lie about what the winesses said, as I
point out in my essay.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Mantik1.htm
I agree with you on this subject. Although the Limo slowed down and
the brake lights were lit, it never came to a stop. My measurements
and the
Not quite. The brake lights did not come on. You are seeing refraction
through the LEFT rear taillight lens only. I pointed this out to my friend
while we were playing bridge and teaesed him by asking if he had left his
brake lights on. It passed in about 20 minutes.
Post by Mark Tyler
animation suggest it slowed from about 13 MPH down to 7 MPH after
the first shot, before it accelerated away after the fatal head shot.
You quoted 12 MPH down to 8 MPH, but whats 1 MPH between you, me, and
Luis Alvarez?!
Rounding error. Close enough for government work.
Post by Mark Tyler
Debunking factual inaccuracies is very important, so thanks for
taking the time to do so in that article.
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same time, with one of the witnesses being hit by shrapnel from a
straight line trajectory from a known gunman position, surely one
is entitled to exclaim "Bingo!".
hope you mean Tague. He was not in a straight line and he was not
hit directly. Some fragment hit the curb NEAR him and threw up
debris. Show me which fragment and its trajectory.
The trajectory is contained in the animation. If you want a static
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Its not just a random trajectory either, as the time in the sequence
is located by over a dozen witnesses as previously mentioned. The
position of the Limo is known by triangulating between the Nix film
and the Altgens 7 photo. The position of Tague is known as being 15
feet away from the bridge abutment.
Never rely on witnessses.
Post by Mark Tyler
The shot missed due to the car speeding away and turning to the
Not sure I see much change.
Post by Mark Tyler
right, and then the bullet hit the road with shrapnel flying in
Tague's direction (one part hitting his cheek, and some lead hitting
So what do you think hit Tague, bullet, bullet fragment, conrete or road
tar?
Post by Mark Tyler
the kerb in front of him). This whole scenario is explained by basic
physics, and requires no special or odd circumstances.
Please don't say kerb in this place, it makes you look like a bloody
lmey, you wanker.

But we need you to account for everything.
Post by Mark Tyler
The book also includes a photo from the snipers perch which
illustrates how it happened on the day. Its a neat, clean, and
simple explanation which leaves no awkward loose ends or unexplained
physical or witness evidence. Voila!
I don't demand that you answer all my points, but you should just be
aware of them and make sure your theories can handle them.
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I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its
possible to imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a
second of the one at Z313 (e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere
else like the sixth floor). However, the eyewitnesses would
be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the human ear
would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then
the rifle jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected
that shell the grassy knoll shooter had to take the insurance
shot and there was not enough time for the TSBD shooter to see
that JFK was shot in the head and react by not pulling the
trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence
sitting must kick in here, so I have to say there may or may
not have been a shot at Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was
caused by the Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one
shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered
before. It would certainly explain why the gap between the
first two shots was longer than expected (i.e. the assassin
struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds), while the final gap
was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems). Good
spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what
happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously
amend his website description of you to "capable of brilliant
work" from the grudging "capable of occasional near-brilliant
work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a
conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find
something that everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't
expected it when I started the animation, but I can't think
of any other explanation for the eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without
compromising their core beliefs about the number of shots
or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may
see something of value in it though. So, thanks for the
effort.
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA
dictabelt, and the so called early missed shot, I will
rile anyone who emotionally clings to these sacred cows.
This doesn't trouble me because my intended audience is
those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to
endorse anything.
Mark Tyler
2019-11-05 04:27:36 UTC
Permalink
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On Thursday, 24 October 2019 01:46:30 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
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On Monday, 21 October 2019 05:49:24 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 19 October 2019 01:58:14 UTC+1, BT
On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 8:49:13 AM UTC-5,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Monday, 14 October 2019 02:58:47 UTC+1,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 12 October 2019 02:03:43
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:46:10
On 10/8/2019 12:15 PM, BT George
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at
2:32:43 PM UTC-5, Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation
that recreates the motorcade
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
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work.
If anybody spots any errors, or
has suggestions for improvements,
please let me know.
You should check your work with
Dale Myers. His work to synchronize
the assassination films would allow
him to verify your timings as shown
on the Discovery Channel and
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about
some of the times. He faked some of
them to try to discredit the
acoustical evidence. I always had
long running disagreements with Bob
Cutler about the times.
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
Post by Mark Tyler
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a few times in the technical reference
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
Post by Mark Tyler
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see where I referred to him. In a
nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have
recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you
claim that no shots were recorded or that
the shots were recorded in a different
location or that a different cycle
recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists
described a sequence of events that was
wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere
near where they said the microphone needed
to be. Without this, the 95% probability
of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you
ever read the HSCA one of the dissenters said
that the shots were real, but came from far
away and the sound go picked up in Dealey
Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe
you could make up a theory that the
microphone was in a cop car instead of on a
motorcycle. But if you actually LISTEN to the
tape you can hear the tires squeal as it
rounds a corner, shifting gears, and a spark
just before he turns on his siren and then
the other sirens around him slowing down and
speeding. None of that is possible with a cop
car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza.
Try matching to any other location. I double
dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your
wanting to protect the conspirators, but you
can't just throw out SCIENCE.
shot from the knoll collapses because the
higher figure relies upon the specific
positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out
that their map was inaccurate. The matches
might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they
are still withing the margin of error. Ever
scientific theory has a margin of error.
I don't rule out the dictabelt as
potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the
handbook the closest vehicle to the alleged
microphone positions was the Mayor's car,
but that seems a stretch and it doesn't
explain the motorbike noise which must have
come from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm
the cycle is not in the middle of the street.
The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of
the Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the
Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane, not the LEFT
lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own
data disproves it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the
shots are fake or only noise? Can you or
Dale match random noise to the shots that
W&A identified? Have you used my computer
program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and
possibly unknowable. There are any number
of possible explanations for the impulses,
including: noise in the microphone, noise
on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three
wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a
match using my computer program. That idea
alone caves in and admits that it was
McLain's cycle.
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without
proper scientific corroboration we can only
speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program
to make a fit to your imaginary three wheel
cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this
imaginary three-wheel cycle is or just mark
the location on the map and then we can
figure out the Cartesian coordinates and then
plug them into the computer program.
Post by Anthony Marsh
the dictabelt. I disagree with some
parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the
bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who
never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are
productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the
end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next
version of the work. Whether this be
a book, a computer program, or a
keep on truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey
Plaza then the acoustical analysis is of value.
However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when
asked to back up your claims. If you have a cute
theory, PROVE it.
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the
crux of the issue. We shouldn't have to guess
where it was recorded, there should be a chain
of evidence that can be traced back. Sadly
this is not what the scientists did, they only
narrowly studied the sound waves on the
dictabelt compared to a re-enactment, so their
analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis,
something that people like you can not do.
A direct proof would be: 1. Prove which vehicle
had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were
positioned where the re-enactment predicted
them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were
gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report. Are you going to claim that
the test shots were not fired in Dealey Plaza?
That's what there comparing it to.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as
I and Dale Myers have proven he was over 100
feet away so this is a poor match. The only
other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we
exclude that as well then the matching patterns
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's
car.
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in
Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove
into Dealey Plaza AND after he left Dealey Plaza.
So you think the shots were fired on the Stemmons
Freeway?
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
I fully understand your belief in the
scientific and numerical analysis, but this is
a real world crime scene and the chain of
evidence in the case has not been established
so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the
proverbial "missing link", and until one is
found there is nothing to analyse other than
wishful thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world
crimes. Try to claim that BBN was wrong about
Kent State and no shots were fired.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we
can't rely on the dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of
conspiracy was not solely based on the
acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen
or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to
rubber stamp the WC. You weren't around then, I
was.
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired.
In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that
exact 4 shots were fired.
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed
the first or last one fired (e.g. Mary Moorman,
who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more
shots), lies with witness analysis rather than
acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of
witnesses saying exactly 4 shots. Ever read Six
Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether
there were 3 or 4 shots, its just that I feel the
acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA
claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a
fake? Can you explain in detail how they could fake it?
Fire new shots in Dealey Plaza?
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who
either said that they heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots
fired, but they clearly missed the first or last
one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can
not list your mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4
shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few
witnbesses who heard exact 4 shots. Are you calling
McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
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However, with the possibility of echoes and
reverberations explaining the fourth shot, its hard
to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3
shots would sound like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on
the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the
eyewitnesses are collectively too confused to be certain
either way, as all of the analysis by Josiah Thompson,
John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness
statements and look for coherent patterns that
corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots
were fired: Z185, Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for
this certainty is presented in my book here in section
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the
fatal shot, and the whole shooting took around 12 seconds
(enough time for Oswald or anyone else to operate a bolt
action gun). There is far more evidence for the
existence of this final shot than the mythical early
missed shot at Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that
there was a 5th shot. I hope that we can agrree that there
was afatal head shot at Z_313. I think the last shot was
after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses
who are adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary
Moorman; Jean Hill; Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam
Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack Franzen; Charles Brehm;
J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the
acoustical evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which
I believe in.
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the
driver of the Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer
Robert Jackson who corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to
the positions of the cars at the point they heard final shot.
The animation (which is based on photos and films), proves
that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when
the limo was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many
years later.
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be
wrong or confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses
were independently mistaken in exactly the same way seems a
little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways
about different details.
NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Sure, witnesses can be wrong in all sorts of weird ways, so to
rely on any single witness would be rather weak when we have
literally hundreds of witnesses in Dealey Plaza. What is more
robust is to corroborate multiple witnesses who describe the same
thing independently from a different point of view.
Once you get to over a dozen witnesses describing the same event, at the
Or some kook can simply lie about what the winesses said, as I
point out in my essay.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Mantik1.htm
I agree with you on this subject. Although the Limo slowed down and
the brake lights were lit, it never came to a stop. My measurements
and the
Not quite. The brake lights did not come on. You are seeing refraction
through the LEFT rear taillight lens only. I pointed this out to my friend
while we were playing bridge and teaesed him by asking if he had left his
brake lights on. It passed in about 20 minutes.
The right brake light was visible in the Muchmore film for a few frames
just around the time of the fatal shot. Braking is also the only
plausible explanation for the decline in speed from 13 MPH to 7 MPH in
just 5 seconds (while going down a slight hill). Bill Newman mentioned
the brake lights coming on briefly before the car accelerated away.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
animation suggest it slowed from about 13 MPH down to 7 MPH after
the first shot, before it accelerated away after the fatal head shot.
You quoted 12 MPH down to 8 MPH, but whats 1 MPH between you, me, and
Luis Alvarez?!
Rounding error. Close enough for government work.
Post by Mark Tyler
Debunking factual inaccuracies is very important, so thanks for
taking the time to do so in that article.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
same time, with one of the witnesses being hit by shrapnel from a
straight line trajectory from a known gunman position, surely one
is entitled to exclaim "Bingo!".
hope you mean Tague. He was not in a straight line and he was not
hit directly. Some fragment hit the curb NEAR him and threw up
debris. Show me which fragment and its trajectory.
The trajectory is contained in the animation. If you want a static
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Its not just a random trajectory either, as the time in the sequence
is located by over a dozen witnesses as previously mentioned. The
position of the Limo is known by triangulating between the Nix film
and the Altgens 7 photo. The position of Tague is known as being 15
feet away from the bridge abutment.
Never rely on witnessses.
Post by Mark Tyler
The shot missed due to the car speeding away and turning to the
Not sure I see much change.
The Limo switched lanes to overtake the Dallas police lead car, and
accelerated to 30 MPH, as confirmed by the photos and films.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
right, and then the bullet hit the road with shrapnel flying in
Tague's direction (one part hitting his cheek, and some lead hitting
So what do you think hit Tague, bullet, bullet fragment, conrete or road
tar?
It could have been any of these items, but either way it was a very small
particle of debris as the whole bullet would have disintegrated on impact
with the Elm Street road.

Helpfully NOVA PBS did this very experiment and proved what happened to
the missed shot when it hit the road:


Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
the kerb in front of him). This whole scenario is explained by basic
physics, and requires no special or odd circumstances.
Please don't say kerb in this place, it makes you look like a bloody
lmey, you wanker.
But we need you to account for everything.
Post by Mark Tyler
The book also includes a photo from the snipers perch which
illustrates how it happened on the day. Its a neat, clean, and
simple explanation which leaves no awkward loose ends or unexplained
physical or witness evidence. Voila!
I don't demand that you answer all my points, but you should just be
aware of them and make sure your theories can handle them.
Post by Mark Tyler
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I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its
possible to imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a
second of the one at Z313 (e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere
else like the sixth floor). However, the eyewitnesses would
be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the human ear
would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then
the rifle jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected
that shell the grassy knoll shooter had to take the insurance
shot and there was not enough time for the TSBD shooter to see
that JFK was shot in the head and react by not pulling the
trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence
sitting must kick in here, so I have to say there may or may
not have been a shot at Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was
caused by the Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one
shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered
before. It would certainly explain why the gap between the
first two shots was longer than expected (i.e. the assassin
struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds), while the final gap
was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems). Good
spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what
happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously
amend his website description of you to "capable of brilliant
work" from the grudging "capable of occasional near-brilliant
work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find
something that everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't
expected it when I started the animation, but I can't think
of any other explanation for the eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without
compromising their core beliefs about the number of shots
or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may
see something of value in it though. So, thanks for the
effort.
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA
dictabelt, and the so called early missed shot, I will
rile anyone who emotionally clings to these sacred cows.
This doesn't trouble me because my intended audience is
those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to
endorse anything.
Anthony Marsh
2019-11-05 21:01:20 UTC
Permalink
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On Thursday, 24 October 2019 01:46:30 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Monday, 21 October 2019 05:49:24 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 19 October 2019 01:58:14 UTC+1, BT
On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 8:49:13 AM UTC-5,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Monday, 14 October 2019 02:58:47 UTC+1,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 12 October 2019 02:03:43
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:46:10
On 10/8/2019 12:15 PM, BT George
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at
2:32:43 PM UTC-5, Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation
that recreates the motorcade
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
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work.
If anybody spots any errors, or
has suggestions for improvements,
please let me know.
You should check your work with
Dale Myers. His work to synchronize
the assassination films would allow
him to verify your timings as shown
on the Discovery Channel and
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about
some of the times. He faked some of
them to try to discredit the
acoustical evidence. I always had
long running disagreements with Bob
Cutler about the times.
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
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a few times in the technical reference
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
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see where I referred to him. In a
nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have
recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you
claim that no shots were recorded or that
the shots were recorded in a different
location or that a different cycle
recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists
described a sequence of events that was
wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere
near where they said the microphone needed
to be. Without this, the 95% probability
of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you
ever read the HSCA one of the dissenters said
that the shots were real, but came from far
away and the sound go picked up in Dealey
Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe
you could make up a theory that the
microphone was in a cop car instead of on a
motorcycle. But if you actually LISTEN to the
tape you can hear the tires squeal as it
rounds a corner, shifting gears, and a spark
just before he turns on his siren and then
the other sirens around him slowing down and
speeding. None of that is possible with a cop
car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza.
Try matching to any other location. I double
dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your
wanting to protect the conspirators, but you
can't just throw out SCIENCE.
shot from the knoll collapses because the
higher figure relies upon the specific
positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out
that their map was inaccurate. The matches
might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they
are still withing the margin of error. Ever
scientific theory has a margin of error.
I don't rule out the dictabelt as
potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the
handbook the closest vehicle to the alleged
microphone positions was the Mayor's car,
but that seems a stretch and it doesn't
explain the motorbike noise which must have
come from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm
the cycle is not in the middle of the street.
The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of
the Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the
Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane, not the LEFT
lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own
data disproves it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the
shots are fake or only noise? Can you or
Dale match random noise to the shots that
W&A identified? Have you used my computer
program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and
possibly unknowable. There are any number
of possible explanations for the impulses,
including: noise in the microphone, noise
on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three
wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a
match using my computer program. That idea
alone caves in and admits that it was
McLain's cycle.
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without
proper scientific corroboration we can only
speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program
to make a fit to your imaginary three wheel
cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this
imaginary three-wheel cycle is or just mark
the location on the map and then we can
figure out the Cartesian coordinates and then
plug them into the computer program.
Post by Anthony Marsh
the dictabelt. I disagree with some
parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the
bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who
never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are
productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the
end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next
version of the work. Whether this be
a book, a computer program, or a
keep on truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey
Plaza then the acoustical analysis is of value.
However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when
asked to back up your claims. If you have a cute
theory, PROVE it.
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the
crux of the issue. We shouldn't have to guess
where it was recorded, there should be a chain
of evidence that can be traced back. Sadly
this is not what the scientists did, they only
narrowly studied the sound waves on the
dictabelt compared to a re-enactment, so their
analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis,
something that people like you can not do.
A direct proof would be: 1. Prove which vehicle
had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were
positioned where the re-enactment predicted
them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were
gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report. Are you going to claim that
the test shots were not fired in Dealey Plaza?
That's what there comparing it to.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as
I and Dale Myers have proven he was over 100
feet away so this is a poor match. The only
other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we
exclude that as well then the matching patterns
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's
car.
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in
Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove
into Dealey Plaza AND after he left Dealey Plaza.
So you think the shots were fired on the Stemmons
Freeway?
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
I fully understand your belief in the
scientific and numerical analysis, but this is
a real world crime scene and the chain of
evidence in the case has not been established
so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the
proverbial "missing link", and until one is
found there is nothing to analyse other than
wishful thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world
crimes. Try to claim that BBN was wrong about
Kent State and no shots were fired.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we
can't rely on the dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of
conspiracy was not solely based on the
acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen
or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to
rubber stamp the WC. You weren't around then, I
was.
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired.
In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that
exact 4 shots were fired.
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed
the first or last one fired (e.g. Mary Moorman,
who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more
shots), lies with witness analysis rather than
acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of
witnesses saying exactly 4 shots. Ever read Six
Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether
there were 3 or 4 shots, its just that I feel the
acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA
claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a
fake? Can you explain in detail how they could fake it?
Fire new shots in Dealey Plaza?
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who
either said that they heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots
fired, but they clearly missed the first or last
one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can
not list your mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4
shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few
witnbesses who heard exact 4 shots. Are you calling
McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
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However, with the possibility of echoes and
reverberations explaining the fourth shot, its hard
to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3
shots would sound like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on
the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the
eyewitnesses are collectively too confused to be certain
either way, as all of the analysis by Josiah Thompson,
John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness
statements and look for coherent patterns that
corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots
were fired: Z185, Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for
this certainty is presented in my book here in section
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the
fatal shot, and the whole shooting took around 12 seconds
(enough time for Oswald or anyone else to operate a bolt
action gun). There is far more evidence for the
existence of this final shot than the mythical early
missed shot at Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that
there was a 5th shot. I hope that we can agrree that there
was afatal head shot at Z_313. I think the last shot was
after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses
who are adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary
Moorman; Jean Hill; Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam
Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack Franzen; Charles Brehm;
J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the
acoustical evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which
I believe in.
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the
driver of the Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer
Robert Jackson who corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to
the positions of the cars at the point they heard final shot.
The animation (which is based on photos and films), proves
that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when
the limo was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many
years later.
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be
wrong or confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses
were independently mistaken in exactly the same way seems a
little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways
about different details.
NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Sure, witnesses can be wrong in all sorts of weird ways, so to
rely on any single witness would be rather weak when we have
literally hundreds of witnesses in Dealey Plaza. What is more
robust is to corroborate multiple witnesses who describe the same
thing independently from a different point of view.
Once you get to over a dozen witnesses describing the same event, at the
Or some kook can simply lie about what the winesses said, as I
point out in my essay.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Mantik1.htm
I agree with you on this subject. Although the Limo slowed down and
the brake lights were lit, it never came to a stop. My measurements
and the
Not quite. The brake lights did not come on. You are seeing refraction
through the LEFT rear taillight lens only. I pointed this out to my friend
while we were playing bridge and teaesed him by asking if he had left his
brake lights on. It passed in about 20 minutes.
The right brake light was visible in the Muchmore film for a few frames
just around the time of the fatal shot. Braking is also the only
BLAB BLAB BLAB BLAB. SHOW me.
What you see is sunlight refracting through the lens.
You are suffering from an optical delusion.
Post by Mark Tyler
plausible explanation for the decline in speed from 13 MPH to 7 MPH in
just 5 seconds (while going down a slight hill). Bill Newman mentioned
the brake lights coming on briefly before the car accelerated away.
OK, AFTER the head shot.
To help Clint Hill jump on.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
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animation suggest it slowed from about 13 MPH down to 7 MPH after
the first shot, before it accelerated away after the fatal head shot.
You quoted 12 MPH down to 8 MPH, but whats 1 MPH between you, me, and
Luis Alvarez?!
Rounding error. Close enough for government work.
Post by Mark Tyler
Debunking factual inaccuracies is very important, so thanks for
taking the time to do so in that article.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
same time, with one of the witnesses being hit by shrapnel from a
straight line trajectory from a known gunman position, surely one
is entitled to exclaim "Bingo!".
hope you mean Tague. He was not in a straight line and he was not
hit directly. Some fragment hit the curb NEAR him and threw up
debris. Show me which fragment and its trajectory.
The trajectory is contained in the animation. If you want a static
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Its not just a random trajectory either, as the time in the sequence
is located by over a dozen witnesses as previously mentioned. The
position of the Limo is known by triangulating between the Nix film
and the Altgens 7 photo. The position of Tague is known as being 15
feet away from the bridge abutment.
Never rely on witnessses.
Post by Mark Tyler
The shot missed due to the car speeding away and turning to the
Not sure I see much change.
The Limo switched lanes to overtake the Dallas police lead car, and
accelerated to 30 MPH, as confirmed by the photos and films.
In the underpass.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
right, and then the bullet hit the road with shrapnel flying in
Tague's direction (one part hitting his cheek, and some lead hitting
So what do you think hit Tague, bullet, bullet fragment, conrete or road
tar?
It could have been any of these items, but either way it was a very small
particle of debris as the whole bullet would have disintegrated on impact
with the Elm Street road.
You are not making any sense.
Name your object.
Post by Mark Tyler
Helpfully NOVA PBS did this very experiment and proved what happened to
http://youtu.be/iiUv2WQKBjo
I hope you don't mean that Father/son team.
You would need a FOURTH shot.
That spells CONSPIRACY.
Post by Mark Tyler
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Post by Mark Tyler
the kerb in front of him). This whole scenario is explained by basic
physics, and requires no special or odd circumstances.
Please don't say kerb in this place, it makes you look like a bloody
lmey, you wanker.
But we need you to account for everything.
Post by Mark Tyler
The book also includes a photo from the snipers perch which
illustrates how it happened on the day. Its a neat, clean, and
simple explanation which leaves no awkward loose ends or unexplained
physical or witness evidence. Voila!
I don't demand that you answer all my points, but you should just be
aware of them and make sure your theories can handle them.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its
possible to imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a
second of the one at Z313 (e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere
else like the sixth floor). However, the eyewitnesses would
be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the human ear
would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then
the rifle jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected
that shell the grassy knoll shooter had to take the insurance
shot and there was not enough time for the TSBD shooter to see
that JFK was shot in the head and react by not pulling the
trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence
sitting must kick in here, so I have to say there may or may
not have been a shot at Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was
caused by the Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one
shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered
before. It would certainly explain why the gap between the
first two shots was longer than expected (i.e. the assassin
struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds), while the final gap
was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems). Good
spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what
happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously
amend his website description of you to "capable of brilliant
work" from the grudging "capable of occasional near-brilliant
work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find
something that everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't
expected it when I started the animation, but I can't think
of any other explanation for the eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without
compromising their core beliefs about the number of shots
or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may
see something of value in it though. So, thanks for the
effort.
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA
dictabelt, and the so called early missed shot, I will
rile anyone who emotionally clings to these sacred cows.
This doesn't trouble me because my intended audience is
those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to
endorse anything.
Mark Tyler
2019-11-10 03:32:19 UTC
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On Thursday, 24 October 2019 01:46:30 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
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On Monday, 21 October 2019 05:49:24 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 19 October 2019 01:58:14 UTC+1, BT
On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 8:49:13 AM UTC-5,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Monday, 14 October 2019 02:58:47 UTC+1,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 12 October 2019 02:03:43
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:46:10
On 10/8/2019 12:15 PM, BT George
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at
2:32:43 PM UTC-5, Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation
that recreates the motorcade
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
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work.
If anybody spots any errors, or
has suggestions for improvements,
please let me know.
You should check your work with
Dale Myers. His work to synchronize
the assassination films would allow
him to verify your timings as shown
on the Discovery Channel and
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about
some of the times. He faked some of
them to try to discredit the
acoustical evidence. I always had
long running disagreements with Bob
Cutler about the times.
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
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a few times in the technical reference
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
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see where I referred to him. In a
nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have
recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you
claim that no shots were recorded or that
the shots were recorded in a different
location or that a different cycle
recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists
described a sequence of events that was
wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere
near where they said the microphone needed
to be. Without this, the 95% probability
of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you
ever read the HSCA one of the dissenters said
that the shots were real, but came from far
away and the sound go picked up in Dealey
Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe
you could make up a theory that the
microphone was in a cop car instead of on a
motorcycle. But if you actually LISTEN to the
tape you can hear the tires squeal as it
rounds a corner, shifting gears, and a spark
just before he turns on his siren and then
the other sirens around him slowing down and
speeding. None of that is possible with a cop
car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza.
Try matching to any other location. I double
dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your
wanting to protect the conspirators, but you
can't just throw out SCIENCE.
shot from the knoll collapses because the
higher figure relies upon the specific
positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out
that their map was inaccurate. The matches
might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they
are still withing the margin of error. Ever
scientific theory has a margin of error.
I don't rule out the dictabelt as
potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the
handbook the closest vehicle to the alleged
microphone positions was the Mayor's car,
but that seems a stretch and it doesn't
explain the motorbike noise which must have
come from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm
the cycle is not in the middle of the street.
The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of
the Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the
Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane, not the LEFT
lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own
data disproves it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the
shots are fake or only noise? Can you or
Dale match random noise to the shots that
W&A identified? Have you used my computer
program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and
possibly unknowable. There are any number
of possible explanations for the impulses,
including: noise in the microphone, noise
on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three
wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a
match using my computer program. That idea
alone caves in and admits that it was
McLain's cycle.
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without
proper scientific corroboration we can only
speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program
to make a fit to your imaginary three wheel
cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this
imaginary three-wheel cycle is or just mark
the location on the map and then we can
figure out the Cartesian coordinates and then
plug them into the computer program.
Post by Anthony Marsh
the dictabelt. I disagree with some
parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the
bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who
never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are
productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the
end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next
version of the work. Whether this be
a book, a computer program, or a
keep on truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey
Plaza then the acoustical analysis is of value.
However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when
asked to back up your claims. If you have a cute
theory, PROVE it.
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the
crux of the issue. We shouldn't have to guess
where it was recorded, there should be a chain
of evidence that can be traced back. Sadly
this is not what the scientists did, they only
narrowly studied the sound waves on the
dictabelt compared to a re-enactment, so their
analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis,
something that people like you can not do.
A direct proof would be: 1. Prove which vehicle
had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were
positioned where the re-enactment predicted
them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were
gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report. Are you going to claim that
the test shots were not fired in Dealey Plaza?
That's what there comparing it to.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as
I and Dale Myers have proven he was over 100
feet away so this is a poor match. The only
other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we
exclude that as well then the matching patterns
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's
car.
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in
Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove
into Dealey Plaza AND after he left Dealey Plaza.
So you think the shots were fired on the Stemmons
Freeway?
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
I fully understand your belief in the
scientific and numerical analysis, but this is
a real world crime scene and the chain of
evidence in the case has not been established
so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the
proverbial "missing link", and until one is
found there is nothing to analyse other than
wishful thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world
crimes. Try to claim that BBN was wrong about
Kent State and no shots were fired.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we
can't rely on the dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of
conspiracy was not solely based on the
acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen
or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to
rubber stamp the WC. You weren't around then, I
was.
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired.
In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that
exact 4 shots were fired.
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed
the first or last one fired (e.g. Mary Moorman,
who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more
shots), lies with witness analysis rather than
acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of
witnesses saying exactly 4 shots. Ever read Six
Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether
there were 3 or 4 shots, its just that I feel the
acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA
claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a
fake? Can you explain in detail how they could fake it?
Fire new shots in Dealey Plaza?
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who
either said that they heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots
fired, but they clearly missed the first or last
one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can
not list your mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4
shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few
witnbesses who heard exact 4 shots. Are you calling
McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
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However, with the possibility of echoes and
reverberations explaining the fourth shot, its hard
to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3
shots would sound like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on
the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the
eyewitnesses are collectively too confused to be certain
either way, as all of the analysis by Josiah Thompson,
John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness
statements and look for coherent patterns that
corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots
were fired: Z185, Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for
this certainty is presented in my book here in section
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the
fatal shot, and the whole shooting took around 12 seconds
(enough time for Oswald or anyone else to operate a bolt
action gun). There is far more evidence for the
existence of this final shot than the mythical early
missed shot at Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that
there was a 5th shot. I hope that we can agrree that there
was afatal head shot at Z_313. I think the last shot was
after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses
who are adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary
Moorman; Jean Hill; Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam
Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack Franzen; Charles Brehm;
J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the
acoustical evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which
I believe in.
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the
driver of the Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer
Robert Jackson who corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to
the positions of the cars at the point they heard final shot.
The animation (which is based on photos and films), proves
that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when
the limo was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many
years later.
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be
wrong or confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses
were independently mistaken in exactly the same way seems a
little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways
about different details.
NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Sure, witnesses can be wrong in all sorts of weird ways, so to
rely on any single witness would be rather weak when we have
literally hundreds of witnesses in Dealey Plaza. What is more
robust is to corroborate multiple witnesses who describe the same
thing independently from a different point of view.
Once you get to over a dozen witnesses describing the same event, at the
Or some kook can simply lie about what the winesses said, as I
point out in my essay.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Mantik1.htm
I agree with you on this subject. Although the Limo slowed down and
the brake lights were lit, it never came to a stop. My measurements
and the
Not quite. The brake lights did not come on. You are seeing refraction
through the LEFT rear taillight lens only. I pointed this out to my friend
while we were playing bridge and teaesed him by asking if he had left his
brake lights on. It passed in about 20 minutes.
The right brake light was visible in the Muchmore film for a few frames
just around the time of the fatal shot. Braking is also the only
BLAB BLAB BLAB BLAB. SHOW me.
What you see is sunlight refracting through the lens.
You are suffering from an optical delusion.
No Tony, it can't be sunlight because it is on the right hand side of the
car in the shade. Have a look at the Muchmore film frame by frame:

Z314
----
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/t9rGApsn7caabIOJDMOJRIFaehQf0J83yvU82jYNl8E_fr1zLND9YaNDrV7SYBJpjKG3w6Cd2PlpVVF7KyUtFjj5Xpmp73d-0lgaUJ1JolYC2xrodcvqBT9wtNEkEUreH8Qe0Byokw=w640-h360-no

Z328
----
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OWpvMSPjbashI4bxMzvKZIQA8HNVofSkkTR7c-zifiFRUhu6Se186KMRjHi-ygUz8vaAkRU6peG7wU3Sb33yCFaV89mUswD9lBX4iiZuPlVQ3qVouOvZQE0LiNbqbb09FDkbn_KWQA=w640-h360-no

These frames are from the restored Muchmore film here:
http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/youtube/7e17c15be2cac3ef19ed8caa427d87f8

The image colour is a little bland, so here are some more saturated
versions to make it clear when it is lit and when it is not:

Z313
----
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MQYPZxMnswlGf_6mCWYpLYs3-l7hykyyJvPuQW51O_Yc5cGuXNIn9zt0BXD0u5UjwjfPKFSMYeuYhNsAP7J2pCj8zEAfHnCqHcGF-JdCEzJqutB95tc2LVo7lsHeuFmc5b0giznH-Q=w640-h360-no

Z328
----
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ygq7h8yoADsy7c_liQZWyIsXTVovNoD9FtI9gGBKPSC-FZmKQu_Ts3OZ30BJM3Er24VuO3j6Bqth-M38pD3b8rnDhl6DY_9GF4F6DkbOoZy1tcxNps_g9xTYVlzckKsAr3kLM_5VoA=w640-h360-no

The blown up Groden version is even clearer at Z313
Loading Image...

Around the fatal shot the brake light *IS* lit, and towards the end of the
Muchmore film the light is *NOT* lit so we have a comparison that proves
that the brakes were on briefly before and around the fatal shot.
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Post by Mark Tyler
plausible explanation for the decline in speed from 13 MPH to 7 MPH in
just 5 seconds (while going down a slight hill). Bill Newman mentioned
the brake lights coming on briefly before the car accelerated away.
OK, AFTER the head shot.
To help Clint Hill jump on.
This is possibly the motivation for the driver braking. The Zapruder film
shows the driver looking back before the head shot, so he would know what
Clint Hill was doing.
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animation suggest it slowed from about 13 MPH down to 7 MPH after
the first shot, before it accelerated away after the fatal head shot.
You quoted 12 MPH down to 8 MPH, but whats 1 MPH between you, me, and
Luis Alvarez?!
Rounding error. Close enough for government work.
Post by Mark Tyler
Debunking factual inaccuracies is very important, so thanks for
taking the time to do so in that article.
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Post by Mark Tyler
same time, with one of the witnesses being hit by shrapnel from a
straight line trajectory from a known gunman position, surely one
is entitled to exclaim "Bingo!".
hope you mean Tague. He was not in a straight line and he was not
hit directly. Some fragment hit the curb NEAR him and threw up
debris. Show me which fragment and its trajectory.
The trajectory is contained in the animation. If you want a static
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Its not just a random trajectory either, as the time in the sequence
is located by over a dozen witnesses as previously mentioned. The
position of the Limo is known by triangulating between the Nix film
and the Altgens 7 photo. The position of Tague is known as being 15
feet away from the bridge abutment.
Never rely on witnessses.
Post by Mark Tyler
The shot missed due to the car speeding away and turning to the
Not sure I see much change.
The Limo switched lanes to overtake the Dallas police lead car, and
accelerated to 30 MPH, as confirmed by the photos and films.
In the underpass.
No it was sooner than this. The Altgens photo circa Z400 shows the white
line on the road being crossed by the right hand side of the Limo. The
Bell film depicts the Limo already in the right hand lane as it entered
the underpass.
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right, and then the bullet hit the road with shrapnel flying in
Tague's direction (one part hitting his cheek, and some lead hitting
So what do you think hit Tague, bullet, bullet fragment, conrete or road
tar?
It could have been any of these items, but either way it was a very small
particle of debris as the whole bullet would have disintegrated on impact
with the Elm Street road.
You are not making any sense.
Name your object.
Nobody knows whether it was gravel, tar, lead, copper, or anything else.
The point is that it must have been a small piece of shrapnel as the wound
was very minor, so that excludes a direct hit from a bullet. So the
scenario I describe explains where this bullet disintegrated on Elm
Street, and why it hit Tague, i.e. it was in a straight line trajectory
from the sixth floor sniper.
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Post by Mark Tyler
Helpfully NOVA PBS did this very experiment and proved what happened to
http://youtu.be/iiUv2WQKBjo
I hope you don't mean that Father/son team.
You would need a FOURTH shot.
That spells CONSPIRACY.
There may have been a fourth shot, or there may not, which is why I sit on
the fence.
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the kerb in front of him). This whole scenario is explained by basic
physics, and requires no special or odd circumstances.
Please don't say kerb in this place, it makes you look like a bloody
lmey, you wanker.
But we need you to account for everything.
Post by Mark Tyler
The book also includes a photo from the snipers perch which
illustrates how it happened on the day. Its a neat, clean, and
simple explanation which leaves no awkward loose ends or unexplained
physical or witness evidence. Voila!
I don't demand that you answer all my points, but you should just be
aware of them and make sure your theories can handle them.
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I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its
possible to imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a
second of the one at Z313 (e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere
else like the sixth floor). However, the eyewitnesses would
be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the human ear
would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then
the rifle jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected
that shell the grassy knoll shooter had to take the insurance
shot and there was not enough time for the TSBD shooter to see
that JFK was shot in the head and react by not pulling the
trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence
sitting must kick in here, so I have to say there may or may
not have been a shot at Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was
caused by the Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one
shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered
before. It would certainly explain why the gap between the
first two shots was longer than expected (i.e. the assassin
struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds), while the final gap
was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems). Good
spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what
happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously
amend his website description of you to "capable of brilliant
work" from the grudging "capable of occasional near-brilliant
work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find
something that everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't
expected it when I started the animation, but I can't think
of any other explanation for the eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without
compromising their core beliefs about the number of shots
or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may
see something of value in it though. So, thanks for the
effort.
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA
dictabelt, and the so called early missed shot, I will
rile anyone who emotionally clings to these sacred cows.
This doesn't trouble me because my intended audience is
those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to
endorse anything.
Anthony Marsh
2019-11-11 02:35:30 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Anthony Marsh
On Thursday, 24 October 2019 01:46:30 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Monday, 21 October 2019 05:49:24 UTC+1, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 19 October 2019 01:58:14 UTC+1, BT
On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 8:49:13 AM UTC-5,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Monday, 14 October 2019 02:58:47 UTC+1,
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Saturday, 12 October 2019 02:03:43
Post by Anthony Marsh
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:46:10
On 10/8/2019 12:15 PM, BT George
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at
2:32:43 PM UTC-5, Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation
that recreates the motorcade
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
Post by Mark Tyler
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work.
If anybody spots any errors, or
has suggestions for improvements,
please let me know.
You should check your work with
Dale Myers. His work to synchronize
the assassination films would allow
him to verify your timings as shown
on the Discovery Channel and
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about
some of the times. He faked some of
them to try to discredit the
acoustical evidence. I always had
long running disagreements with Bob
Cutler about the times.
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
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a few times in the technical reference
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
Post by Mark Tyler
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see where I referred to him. In a
nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have
recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you
claim that no shots were recorded or that
the shots were recorded in a different
location or that a different cycle
recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists
described a sequence of events that was
wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere
near where they said the microphone needed
to be. Without this, the 95% probability
of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you
ever read the HSCA one of the dissenters said
that the shots were real, but came from far
away and the sound go picked up in Dealey
Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe
you could make up a theory that the
microphone was in a cop car instead of on a
motorcycle. But if you actually LISTEN to the
tape you can hear the tires squeal as it
rounds a corner, shifting gears, and a spark
just before he turns on his siren and then
the other sirens around him slowing down and
speeding. None of that is possible with a cop
car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza.
Try matching to any other location. I double
dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your
wanting to protect the conspirators, but you
can't just throw out SCIENCE.
shot from the knoll collapses because the
higher figure relies upon the specific
positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out
that their map was inaccurate. The matches
might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they
are still withing the margin of error. Ever
scientific theory has a margin of error.
I don't rule out the dictabelt as
potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the
handbook the closest vehicle to the alleged
microphone positions was the Mayor's car,
but that seems a stretch and it doesn't
explain the motorbike noise which must have
come from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm
the cycle is not in the middle of the street.
The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of
the Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the
Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane, not the LEFT
lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own
data disproves it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the
shots are fake or only noise? Can you or
Dale match random noise to the shots that
W&A identified? Have you used my computer
program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and
possibly unknowable. There are any number
of possible explanations for the impulses,
including: noise in the microphone, noise
on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three
wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a
match using my computer program. That idea
alone caves in and admits that it was
McLain's cycle.
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without
proper scientific corroboration we can only
speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program
to make a fit to your imaginary three wheel
cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this
imaginary three-wheel cycle is or just mark
the location on the map and then we can
figure out the Cartesian coordinates and then
plug them into the computer program.
Post by Anthony Marsh
the dictabelt. I disagree with some
parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the
bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who
never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are
productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the
end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next
version of the work. Whether this be
a book, a computer program, or a
keep on truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey
Plaza then the acoustical analysis is of value.
However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when
asked to back up your claims. If you have a cute
theory, PROVE it.
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the
crux of the issue. We shouldn't have to guess
where it was recorded, there should be a chain
of evidence that can be traced back. Sadly
this is not what the scientists did, they only
narrowly studied the sound waves on the
dictabelt compared to a re-enactment, so their
analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis,
something that people like you can not do.
A direct proof would be: 1. Prove which vehicle
had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were
positioned where the re-enactment predicted
them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were
gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report. Are you going to claim that
the test shots were not fired in Dealey Plaza?
That's what there comparing it to.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as
I and Dale Myers have proven he was over 100
feet away so this is a poor match. The only
other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we
exclude that as well then the matching patterns
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's
car.
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in
Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove
into Dealey Plaza AND after he left Dealey Plaza.
So you think the shots were fired on the Stemmons
Freeway?
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
I fully understand your belief in the
scientific and numerical analysis, but this is
a real world crime scene and the chain of
evidence in the case has not been established
so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the
proverbial "missing link", and until one is
found there is nothing to analyse other than
wishful thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world
crimes. Try to claim that BBN was wrong about
Kent State and no shots were fired.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we
can't rely on the dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of
conspiracy was not solely based on the
acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen
or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to
rubber stamp the WC. You weren't around then, I
was.
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired.
In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that
exact 4 shots were fired.
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed
the first or last one fired (e.g. Mary Moorman,
who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more
shots), lies with witness analysis rather than
acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of
witnesses saying exactly 4 shots. Ever read Six
Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether
there were 3 or 4 shots, its just that I feel the
acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA
claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a
fake? Can you explain in detail how they could fake it?
Fire new shots in Dealey Plaza?
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who
either said that they heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots
fired, but they clearly missed the first or last
one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can
not list your mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4
shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few
witnbesses who heard exact 4 shots. Are you calling
McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
However, with the possibility of echoes and
reverberations explaining the fourth shot, its hard
to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3
shots would sound like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on
the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the
eyewitnesses are collectively too confused to be certain
either way, as all of the analysis by Josiah Thompson,
John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness
statements and look for coherent patterns that
corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots
were fired: Z185, Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for
this certainty is presented in my book here in section
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the
fatal shot, and the whole shooting took around 12 seconds
(enough time for Oswald or anyone else to operate a bolt
action gun). There is far more evidence for the
existence of this final shot than the mythical early
missed shot at Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that
there was a 5th shot. I hope that we can agrree that there
was afatal head shot at Z_313. I think the last shot was
after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses
who are adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary
Moorman; Jean Hill; Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam
Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack Franzen; Charles Brehm;
J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the
acoustical evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which
I believe in.
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the
driver of the Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer
Robert Jackson who corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to
the positions of the cars at the point they heard final shot.
The animation (which is based on photos and films), proves
that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when
the limo was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many
years later.
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be
wrong or confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses
were independently mistaken in exactly the same way seems a
little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways
about different details.
NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Sure, witnesses can be wrong in all sorts of weird ways, so to
rely on any single witness would be rather weak when we have
literally hundreds of witnesses in Dealey Plaza. What is more
robust is to corroborate multiple witnesses who describe the same
thing independently from a different point of view.
Once you get to over a dozen witnesses describing the same event, at the
Or some kook can simply lie about what the winesses said, as I
point out in my essay.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Mantik1.htm
I agree with you on this subject. Although the Limo slowed down and
the brake lights were lit, it never came to a stop. My measurements
and the
Not quite. The brake lights did not come on. You are seeing refraction
through the LEFT rear taillight lens only. I pointed this out to my friend
while we were playing bridge and teaesed him by asking if he had left his
brake lights on. It passed in about 20 minutes.
The right brake light was visible in the Muchmore film for a few frames
just around the time of the fatal shot. Braking is also the only
BLAB BLAB BLAB BLAB. SHOW me.
What you see is sunlight refracting through the lens.
You are suffering from an optical delusion.
No Tony, it can't be sunlight because it is on the right hand side of the
You know nothing about refraction. The sunlight will refract through the
right lens.
Post by Mark Tyler
Z314
----
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/t9rGApsn7caabIOJDMOJRIFaehQf0J83yvU82jYNl8E_fr1zLND9YaNDrV7SYBJpjKG3w6Cd2PlpVVF7KyUtFjj5Xpmp73d-0lgaUJ1JolYC2xrodcvqBT9wtNEkEUreH8Qe0Byokw=w640-h360-no
Z328
After the head shot, not BEFORE.
Post by Mark Tyler
----
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OWpvMSPjbashI4bxMzvKZIQA8HNVofSkkTR7c-zifiFRUhu6Se186KMRjHi-ygUz8vaAkRU6peG7wU3Sb33yCFaV89mUswD9lBX4iiZuPlVQ3qVouOvZQE0LiNbqbb09FDkbn_KWQA=w640-h360-no
http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/youtube/7e17c15be2cac3ef19ed8caa427d87f8
The image colour is a little bland, so here are some more saturated
Z313
----
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MQYPZxMnswlGf_6mCWYpLYs3-l7hykyyJvPuQW51O_Yc5cGuXNIn9zt0BXD0u5UjwjfPKFSMYeuYhNsAP7J2pCj8zEAfHnCqHcGF-JdCEzJqutB95tc2LVo7lsHeuFmc5b0giznH-Q=w640-h360-no
Z328
----
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ygq7h8yoADsy7c_liQZWyIsXTVovNoD9FtI9gGBKPSC-FZmKQu_Ts3OZ30BJM3Er24VuO3j6Bqth-M38pD3b8rnDhl6DY_9GF4F6DkbOoZy1tcxNps_g9xTYVlzckKsAr3kLM_5VoA=w640-h360-no
The blown up Groden version is even clearer at Z313
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Picture_57.jpg
Around the fatal shot the brake light *IS* lit, and towards the end of the
Muchmore film the light is *NOT* lit so we have a comparison that proves
that the brakes were on briefly before and around the fatal shot.
I don't know how much you know about cars, but when you hit the nrakes
BOTH taillights come on. The left taillight did not come on.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
plausible explanation for the decline in speed from 13 MPH to 7 MPH in
just 5 seconds (while going down a slight hill). Bill Newman mentioned
the brake lights coming on briefly before the car accelerated away.
OK, AFTER the head shot.
To help Clint Hill jump on.
This is possibly the motivation for the driver braking. The Zapruder film
shows the driver looking back before the head shot, so he would know what
Clint Hill was doing.
Not quite. He could not see Clint Hill.
Post by Mark Tyler
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animation suggest it slowed from about 13 MPH down to 7 MPH after
the first shot, before it accelerated away after the fatal head shot.
You quoted 12 MPH down to 8 MPH, but whats 1 MPH between you, me, and
Luis Alvarez?!
Rounding error. Close enough for government work.
Post by Mark Tyler
Debunking factual inaccuracies is very important, so thanks for
taking the time to do so in that article.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
same time, with one of the witnesses being hit by shrapnel from a
straight line trajectory from a known gunman position, surely one
is entitled to exclaim "Bingo!".
hope you mean Tague. He was not in a straight line and he was not
hit directly. Some fragment hit the curb NEAR him and threw up
debris. Show me which fragment and its trajectory.
The trajectory is contained in the animation. If you want a static
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Its not just a random trajectory either, as the time in the sequence
is located by over a dozen witnesses as previously mentioned. The
position of the Limo is known by triangulating between the Nix film
and the Altgens 7 photo. The position of Tague is known as being 15
feet away from the bridge abutment.
Never rely on witnessses.
Post by Mark Tyler
The shot missed due to the car speeding away and turning to the
Not sure I see much change.
The Limo switched lanes to overtake the Dallas police lead car, and
accelerated to 30 MPH, as confirmed by the photos and films.
In the underpass.
No it was sooner than this. The Altgens photo circa Z400 shows the white
line on the road being crossed by the right hand side of the Limo. The
Bell film depicts the Limo already in the right hand lane as it entered
the underpass.
So you claim, but you are afraid to SHOW it.
Do you mean Altgens 7?

Loading Image...
Is this the one you are talking about?
Why can't you COPY and PASTE photos?
The limo is still in the middle lane and the right rear tire is on the
traffic line.
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right, and then the bullet hit the road with shrapnel flying in
Tague's direction (one part hitting his cheek, and some lead hitting
So what do you think hit Tague, bullet, bullet fragment, conrete or road
tar?
It could have been any of these items, but either way it was a very small
particle of debris as the whole bullet would have disintegrated on impact
with the Elm Street road.
You are not making any sense.
Name your object.
Nobody knows whether it was gravel, tar, lead, copper, or anything else.
The point is that it must have been a small piece of shrapnel as the wound
was very minor, so that excludes a direct hit from a bullet. So the
Well, of course it was not a direct hit by a bullet. But you can't
explain it.
Post by Mark Tyler
scenario I describe explains where this bullet disintegrated on Elm
Street, and why it hit Tague, i.e. it was in a straight line trajectory
from the sixth floor sniper.
No, it doesn't. Why don't you get in touch with Ken Rahn and Larry
Sturdivan who think it was a fragment from the head shot?
Are you even aware that two large fragments were found in the limo?
One was from the base of the bullet and was missing its lead core. Where
did that lead core go?
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Helpfully NOVA PBS did this very experiment and proved what happened to
http://youtu.be/iiUv2WQKBjo
I hope you don't mean that Father/son team.
You would need a FOURTH shot.
That spells CONSPIRACY.
There may have been a fourth shot, or there may not, which is why I sit on
the fence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Mark Tyler
the kerb in front of him). This whole scenario is explained by basic
physics, and requires no special or odd circumstances.
Please don't say kerb in this place, it makes you look like a bloody
lmey, you wanker.
But we need you to account for everything.
Post by Mark Tyler
The book also includes a photo from the snipers perch which
illustrates how it happened on the day. Its a neat, clean, and
simple explanation which leaves no awkward loose ends or unexplained
physical or witness evidence. Voila!
I don't demand that you answer all my points, but you should just be
aware of them and make sure your theories can handle them.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its
possible to imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a
second of the one at Z313 (e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere
else like the sixth floor). However, the eyewitnesses would
be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the human ear
would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then
the rifle jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected
that shell the grassy knoll shooter had to take the insurance
shot and there was not enough time for the TSBD shooter to see
that JFK was shot in the head and react by not pulling the
trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence
sitting must kick in here, so I have to say there may or may
not have been a shot at Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was
caused by the Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one
shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered
before. It would certainly explain why the gap between the
first two shots was longer than expected (i.e. the assassin
struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds), while the final gap
was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems). Good
spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what
happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously
amend his website description of you to "capable of brilliant
work" from the grudging "capable of occasional near-brilliant
work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find
something that everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't
expected it when I started the animation, but I can't think
of any other explanation for the eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without
compromising their core beliefs about the number of shots
or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may
see something of value in it though. So, thanks for the
effort.
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA
dictabelt, and the so called early missed shot, I will
rile anyone who emotionally clings to these sacred cows.
This doesn't trouble me because my intended audience is
those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to
endorse anything.
Anthony Marsh
2019-11-02 18:52:16 UTC
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Post by BT George
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I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
So you are an Alterationist and think the Dicabelt is a fake?
Can you explain in detail how they could fake it? Fire new shots in
Dealey Plaza?
Post by Mark Tyler
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
I have challenged you several times and you still can not list your
mystery witnesses who heard exactly 4 shots.
Even McAdams can admit that there were very few witnbesses who heard
exact 4 shots. Are you calling McAdams a liar?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Hoe sbout DVP? Do you call him a liar too?
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html
Is 8.7% a majority?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
No, stop being silly. If it's just echoes, then your 3 shots would sound
like 6 shots. Try again. Blame it on the weather.
Your fence is very narrow and shaky. Isn't it beginning to hurt?
I am a fence sitter regarding 3 or 4 shots because the eyewitnesses are
collectively too confused to be certain either way, as all of the analysis
by Josiah Thompson, John McAdams and David Von Pein clearly demonstrates.
This is why I prefer to study individual witness statements and look for
coherent patterns that corroborate when the shots were fired.
By doing this I am *VERY* certain when 3 of the shots were fired: Z185,
Z310, Z400. The detailed reasoning for this certainty is presented in my
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Please note the final shot is roughly 5 seconds after the fatal shot, and
the whole shooting took around 12 seconds (enough time for Oswald or
anyone else to operate a bolt action gun). There is far more evidence for
the existence of this final shot than the mythical early missed shot at
Z160 or before.
i DON't beleieve in YOUR 5th shot. I can't be sure that there was a 5th
shot. I hope that we can agrree that there was afatal head shot at Z_313.
I think the last shot was after that at 328.
I agree about Z313 of course, but there are several witnesses who are
adamant about a shot well after this such as: Mary Moorman; Jean Hill;
Emmett Hudson; Royce Skelton; Sam Holland; Bill Decker; Mr & Mrs Jack
Franzen; Charles Brehm; J.W. Foster.
OK. If the head shot came from the grassy knoll, then the acoustical
evidence places the last shot at about Z-328, which I believe in.
Post by Mark Tyler
Not only this but we have David Wiegman, Lee Bowers, the driver of the
Mayors car Milton Wright, and the photographer Robert Jackson who
corroborate the shot at circa Z400 due to the positions of the cars at the
point they heard final shot. The animation (which is based on photos and
films), proves that this must be somewhere in the range Z370 and Z430.
Way too late. And I don't beleieve any shots were fired when the limo
was in the underpass. But some shots were fired many years later.
Post by Mark Tyler
I am always prepared to accept one or two witnesses could be wrong or
confused, but to assume *ALL* of the above witnesses were independently
mistaken in exactly the same way seems a little implausible to me.
In some cases ALL the witnesses can be wrong in different ways about
different details.
NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.
Sure, witnesses can be wrong in all sorts of weird ways, so to rely on any
single witness would be rather weak when we have literally hundreds of
witnesses in Dealey Plaza. What is more robust is to corroborate multiple
witnesses who describe the same thing independently from a different point
of view.
Once you get to over a dozen witnesses describing the same event, at the
Or some kook can simply lie about what the winesses said, as I point out
in my essay.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Mantik1.htm
I agree with you on this subject. Although the Limo slowed down and the
brake lights were lit, it never came to a stop. My measurements and the
The brake lights were not on.
Post by Mark Tyler
animation suggest it slowed from about 13 MPH down to 7 MPH after the
first shot, before it accelerated away after the fatal head shot. You
quoted 12 MPH down to 8 MPH, but whats 1 MPH between you, me, and Luis
Alvarez?!
Debunking factual inaccuracies is very important, so thanks for taking the
time to do so in that article.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
same time, with one of the witnesses being hit by shrapnel from a straight
line trajectory from a known gunman position, surely one is entitled to
exclaim "Bingo!".
hope you mean Tague. He was not in a straight line and he was not hit
directly. Some fragment hit the curb NEAR him and threw up debris.
Show me which fragment and its trajectory.
The trajectory is contained in the animation. If you want a static
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Its not just a random trajectory either, as the time in the sequence is
located by over a dozen witnesses as previously mentioned. The position
of the Limo is known by triangulating between the Nix film and the Altgens
7 photo. The position of Tague is known as being 15 feet away from the
bridge abutment.
The shot missed due to the car speeding away and turning to the right, and
then the bullet hit the road with shrapnel flying in Tague's direction
(one part hitting his cheek, and some lead hitting the kerb in front of
him). This whole scenario is explained by basic physics, and requires no
special or odd circumstances.
The book also includes a photo from the snipers perch which illustrates
how it happened on the day. Its a neat, clean, and simple explanation
which leaves no awkward loose ends or unexplained physical or witness
evidence. Voila!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I'm very open to your suggestion of a shot at Z328: its possible to
imagine a second gunman firing a shot within a second of the one at Z313
(e.g. from the knoll, or somewhere else like the sixth floor). However,
the eyewitnesses would be unlikely to prove or disprove this because the
human ear would still be in shock after the Z313 noise to be able to
differentiate it from one at Z328.
My theory is that the TSBD shooter fired a shot at Z-230 then the rifle
jammed and by the time the shooter finally ejected that shell the grassy
knoll shooter had to take the insurance shot and there was not enough time
for the TSBD shooter to see that JFK was shot in the head and react by not
pulling the trigger so he shot at Z-328.
Post by Mark Tyler
Without concrete evidence for or against, my habit of fence sitting must
kick in here, so I have to say there may or may not have been a shot at
Z328.
Post by Anthony Marsh
In another essay I pointed out that the 5 second pause was caused by the
Carcano jamming, hence the dented lip on one shell.
This is rather salient, and not something I had considered before. It
would certainly explain why the gap between the first two shots was longer
than expected (i.e. the assassin struggled with the bolt for 2-3 seconds),
while the final gap was shorter (i.e. the assassin had no bolt problems).
Good spot, you have persuaded me that this is probably what happened!
With this in mind, surely John McAdams should generously amend his website
description of you to "capable of brilliant work" from the grudging
"capable of occasional near-brilliant work"? LOL!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I should emphasise that my work is agnostic regarding a conspiracy or a
That's OK with me. I welcome agnostic. You might find something that
everyone else missed.
Indeed, I think I have with the shot at Z400. I wasn't expected it when I
started the animation, but I can't think of any other explanation for the
eyewitness accounts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
single gunman, so either side can embrace my work without compromising
their core beliefs about the number of shots or who fired them.
I can't embrace it, no matter which side you are on. I may see something
of value in it though. So, thanks for the effort.
Post by Mark Tyler
Having said that, I understand that by debunking the HSCA dictabelt, and
the so called early missed shot, I will rile anyone who emotionally clings
to these sacred cows. This doesn't trouble me because my intended
audience is those with an open and inquiring mind.
You can try debunking whatever you want. I do not have to endorse
anything.
BT George
2019-10-22 05:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-23 02:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).

Pat Speer did some interesting work in this area:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether

If I ever get some spare time, this may be a fruitful avenue for research:
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-24 00:46:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Well, yes up to a point. But in a conspiracy or professional hit or
military sniper there is often a spotter to help.
c***@gmail.com
2019-10-24 00:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect

Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.

I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.

"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Mark Tyler
2019-10-26 01:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.

However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.

I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.

Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
realistic scenarios for what happened in Dealey Plaza regarding the shots:
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).

Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.

I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
gone into forensic detail in my book here:

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf

The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.

As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.

Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
c***@gmail.com
2019-10-29 23:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.
However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.
I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.
Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).
Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.
I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.
As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.
Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
Thank you, and my compliments on the work you put into this
reconstruction. It's really informative. On the Occam's Razor-style
observation you acknowledged, the three shells found on the 6th floor of
the TSBD, coupled with the vast majority of earwitnesses reporting three
shots, and a shooting scenario that doesn't require more than three shots,
combined with no physical evidence of additional shots from other
locations, and an autopsy detailing there were two strikes to JFK--from
above and behind--seals it in my mind that there were only three shots
fired. Whether the first shot or third shot was the miss is less important
to me. Had Oswald escaped Ruby's well-placed bullet, Oswald would've been
hanged or electrocuted by We The People in late 1964/early 1965.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-30 18:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.
However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.
I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.
Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).
Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.
I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.
As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.
Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
Thank you, and my compliments on the work you put into this
reconstruction. It's really informative. On the Occam's Razor-style
observation you acknowledged, the three shells found on the 6th floor of
the TSBD, coupled with the vast majority of earwitnesses reporting three
shots, and a shooting scenario that doesn't require more than three shots,
Well, jeez, guess what? The acoustical evidence PROVED that 3 shots were
fired from the STDB sniper's nest.
Post by c***@gmail.com
combined with no physical evidence of additional shots from other
locations, and an autopsy detailing there were two strikes to JFK--from
above and behind--seals it in my mind that there were only three shots
fired. Whether the first shot or third shot was the miss is less important
to me. Had Oswald escaped Ruby's well-placed bullet, Oswald would've been
hanged or electrocuted by We The People in late 1964/early 1965.
Or he would have appealed and gotten a new trial. J'Accuse.
c***@gmail.com
2019-11-02 21:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.
However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.
I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.
Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).
Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.
I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.
As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.
Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
Thank you, and my compliments on the work you put into this
reconstruction. It's really informative. On the Occam's Razor-style
observation you acknowledged, the three shells found on the 6th floor of
the TSBD, coupled with the vast majority of earwitnesses reporting three
shots, and a shooting scenario that doesn't require more than three shots,
Well, jeez, guess what? The acoustical evidence PROVED that 3 shots were
fired from the STDB sniper's nest.
There was no acoustical evidence. McLain was not in position.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by c***@gmail.com
combined with no physical evidence of additional shots from other
locations, and an autopsy detailing there were two strikes to JFK--from
above and behind--seals it in my mind that there were only three shots
fired. Whether the first shot or third shot was the miss is less important
to me. Had Oswald escaped Ruby's well-placed bullet, Oswald would've been
hanged or electrocuted by We The People in late 1964/early 1965.
Or he would have appealed and gotten a new trial. J'Accuse.
We'll never know with certainty. Perhaps he would've used the courtroom to
justify his actions. We'll never know.

But you know what we DO know with certainty?

McLain wasn't in position to have recorded those shots. Stop analyzing
impulses from the dictabelt recording and look where McLain was on the
synchronized film record, and look at the study for the HSCA and the
location it said McLain needed to be for the study to be valid. He wasn't
there. Not even close.

You cling to the acoustics study because it's the only real scientific
work that validates a conspiracy. Without it, you're reduced to spooky
music and forced to look at yourself in the mirror and see the reflection
of someone who spent an adulthood on a snipe hunt. You're proof that once
infected with the malady of conspiracism, turning the page is next to
impossible. You will always believe evil forces killed Camelot.

That's fine. You're entitled to believe any misguided thing you want to
believe. People believe vaccines cause autism or that Trump colluded with
Russia or that he moon landings were faked or that Obama was a secret
Muslim or whatever. There is no legislation that bans silliness. (Yet!)
However, you'll need to finish out your days confronting the FACT that
McLain wasn't in position to record those shots. Your silliness needs to
proceed minus the acoustics study, which has been invalidated. You are
entitled to your own opinions and beliefs, but not your own facts.
BT George
2019-10-31 03:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.
However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.
I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.
Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).
Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.
I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.
As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.
Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
Thank you, and my compliments on the work you put into this
reconstruction. It's really informative. On the Occam's Razor-style
observation you acknowledged, the three shells found on the 6th floor of
the TSBD, coupled with the vast majority of earwitnesses reporting three
shots, and a shooting scenario that doesn't require more than three shots,
combined with no physical evidence of additional shots from other
locations, and an autopsy detailing there were two strikes to JFK--from
above and behind--seals it in my mind that there were only three shots
fired. Whether the first shot or third shot was the miss is less important
to me. Had Oswald escaped Ruby's well-placed bullet, Oswald would've been
hanged or electrocuted by We The People in late 1964/early 1965.
Actually the latter is a point of debate. The SCOTUS very soon thereafter
suspended the death penalty. I have made the argument that if Oz had been
on death row, they would have felt more pressure to not take the case yet,
or to find some way to make some exception for the POTUS' convicted
murderer. But of course we will never know.

On the point of Oz's guilt, I didn't notice anything in Mark's arguments
that necessarily disputed his guilt. Rather he seems uncommitted to the
conclusion he acted alone. (E.g., maybe there could have been an
additional shooter somewhere who missed similar to the HSCA's theory.)
Perhaps he can clarify this point further.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-31 22:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.
However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.
I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.
Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).
Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.
I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.
As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.
Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
Thank you, and my compliments on the work you put into this
reconstruction. It's really informative. On the Occam's Razor-style
observation you acknowledged, the three shells found on the 6th floor of
the TSBD, coupled with the vast majority of earwitnesses reporting three
shots, and a shooting scenario that doesn't require more than three shots,
combined with no physical evidence of additional shots from other
locations, and an autopsy detailing there were two strikes to JFK--from
above and behind--seals it in my mind that there were only three shots
fired. Whether the first shot or third shot was the miss is less important
to me. Had Oswald escaped Ruby's well-placed bullet, Oswald would've been
hanged or electrocuted by We The People in late 1964/early 1965.
Actually the latter is a point of debate. The SCOTUS very soon thereafter
suspended the death penalty. I have made the argument that if Oz had been
on death row, they would have felt more pressure to not take the case yet,
or to find some way to make some exception for the POTUS' convicted
murderer. But of course we will never know.
Nice try, but states keep executing. One way around it would be for the
FEDERAL government to take over the case on National Security goounds and
charge Treason. But none dared all it Treason.
Post by BT George
On the point of Oz's guilt, I didn't notice anything in Mark's arguments
that necessarily disputed his guilt. Rather he seems uncommitted to the
conclusion he acted alone. (E.g., maybe there could have been an
additional shooter somewhere who missed similar to the HSCA's theory.)
Perhaps he can clarify this point further.
Well, some kook has a theory that Oswald was supposed to miss
intentionally.
Mark Tyler
2019-11-01 03:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.
However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.
I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.
Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).
Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.
I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.
As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.
Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
Thank you, and my compliments on the work you put into this
reconstruction. It's really informative. On the Occam's Razor-style
observation you acknowledged, the three shells found on the 6th floor of
the TSBD, coupled with the vast majority of earwitnesses reporting three
shots, and a shooting scenario that doesn't require more than three shots,
combined with no physical evidence of additional shots from other
locations, and an autopsy detailing there were two strikes to JFK--from
above and behind--seals it in my mind that there were only three shots
fired. Whether the first shot or third shot was the miss is less important
to me. Had Oswald escaped Ruby's well-placed bullet, Oswald would've been
hanged or electrocuted by We The People in late 1964/early 1965.
Actually the latter is a point of debate. The SCOTUS very soon thereafter
suspended the death penalty. I have made the argument that if Oz had been
on death row, they would have felt more pressure to not take the case yet,
or to find some way to make some exception for the POTUS' convicted
murderer. But of course we will never know.
On the point of Oz's guilt, I didn't notice anything in Mark's arguments
that necessarily disputed his guilt. Rather he seems uncommitted to the
conclusion he acted alone. (E.g., maybe there could have been an
additional shooter somewhere who missed similar to the HSCA's theory.)
Perhaps he can clarify this point further.
Your observation of my position is correct!

I have concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald was indeed involved in the
shooting (probably the gunman in the sixth floor window). There is simply
too much evidence against him, and his behaviour before and after the
shooting points towards guilt.

What I am uncertain about is whether he was solely responsible. There may
have been a second gunman who fired and missed. Plus, even if he was the
only gunman he may have been paid or encouraged to do it. Its difficult
to know if these uncertainties can ever be resolved, but I am sharing my
work in the hope that it can challenge some of the less plausible
interpretations of the evidence (both conspiracy and lone gunman theories
have their weaknesses which I try to address).
C***@yahoo.com
2019-11-01 16:17:17 UTC
Permalink
Great job! Are those two dots going along the infield between Elm/Main as
the limo prepares to turn onto Elm, Altgens and Bothun running from their
positions at the Main/Houston intersection after taking pictures there,to
where they took pictures on Elm? I'm looking at the video on my phone so,I
can't really read the wording on the right. Good details! You even got
camera car 2 and 3 passing camera car 1!
Mark Tyler
2019-11-02 02:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@yahoo.com
Great job! Are those two dots going along the infield between Elm/Main as
the limo prepares to turn onto Elm, Altgens and Bothun running from their
positions at the Main/Houston intersection after taking pictures there,to
where they took pictures on Elm? I'm looking at the video on my phone so,I
can't really read the wording on the right. Good details! You even got
camera car 2 and 3 passing camera car 1!
That's right, Altgens and Bothun are indeed the dots that run from
Main/Houston across the grass. I also have Phil Willis, Hugh Betzner,
David Wiegman, and others running around as they took their photos and
films. The video really does capture the chaos and confusion that was
going on during those few minutes of history.

Yes, the text will be a bit small on a phone. Watch the video in all its
glory using a large screen and you can also see exactly how fast the cars
and people are moving. For example the Limo slows down to about 7 MPH
around the fatal shot before accelerating away at about 30 MPH as it left
under the bridge.
19efppp
2019-11-02 18:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by C***@yahoo.com
Great job! Are those two dots going along the infield between Elm/Main as
the limo prepares to turn onto Elm, Altgens and Bothun running from their
positions at the Main/Houston intersection after taking pictures there,to
where they took pictures on Elm? I'm looking at the video on my phone so,I
can't really read the wording on the right. Good details! You even got
camera car 2 and 3 passing camera car 1!
That's right, Altgens and Bothun are indeed the dots that run from
Main/Houston across the grass. I also have Phil Willis, Hugh Betzner,
David Wiegman, and others running around as they took their photos and
films. The video really does capture the chaos and confusion that was
going on during those few minutes of history.
Yes, the text will be a bit small on a phone. Watch the video in all its
glory using a large screen and you can also see exactly how fast the cars
and people are moving. For example the Limo slows down to about 7 MPH
around the fatal shot before accelerating away at about 30 MPH as it left
under the bridge.
He didn't take photos, he says, but Charles Brehm said he also made that
run across the grass, he and his son, and he's an important witness. Maybe
he deserves a dot, too.
Anthony Marsh
2019-11-04 03:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by C***@yahoo.com
Great job! Are those two dots going along the infield between Elm/Main as
the limo prepares to turn onto Elm, Altgens and Bothun running from their
positions at the Main/Houston intersection after taking pictures there,to
where they took pictures on Elm? I'm looking at the video on my phone so,I
can't really read the wording on the right. Good details! You even got
camera car 2 and 3 passing camera car 1!
That's right, Altgens and Bothun are indeed the dots that run from
Main/Houston across the grass. I also have Phil Willis, Hugh Betzner,
David Wiegman, and others running around as they took their photos and
films. The video really does capture the chaos and confusion that was
going on during those few minutes of history.
Yes, the text will be a bit small on a phone. Watch the video in all its
glory using a large screen and you can also see exactly how fast the cars
and people are moving. For example the Limo slows down to about 7 MPH
around the fatal shot before accelerating away at about 30 MPH as it left
under the bridge.
He didn't take photos, he says, but Charles Brehm said he also made that
run across the grass, he and his son, and he's an important witness. Maybe
he deserves a dot, too.
Agreed. He is a landmark. We need to know exactly where he was at
different times.
Mark Tyler
2019-11-05 04:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by C***@yahoo.com
Great job! Are those two dots going along the infield between Elm/Main as
the limo prepares to turn onto Elm, Altgens and Bothun running from their
positions at the Main/Houston intersection after taking pictures there,to
where they took pictures on Elm? I'm looking at the video on my phone so,I
can't really read the wording on the right. Good details! You even got
camera car 2 and 3 passing camera car 1!
That's right, Altgens and Bothun are indeed the dots that run from
Main/Houston across the grass. I also have Phil Willis, Hugh Betzner,
David Wiegman, and others running around as they took their photos and
films. The video really does capture the chaos and confusion that was
going on during those few minutes of history.
Yes, the text will be a bit small on a phone. Watch the video in all its
glory using a large screen and you can also see exactly how fast the cars
and people are moving. For example the Limo slows down to about 7 MPH
around the fatal shot before accelerating away at about 30 MPH as it left
under the bridge.
He didn't take photos, he says, but Charles Brehm said he also made that
run across the grass, he and his son, and he's an important witness. Maybe
he deserves a dot, too.
Brehm is indeed a very important witness, and he confirms that the third
shot was after the fatal head shot. However, I don't feel a dot is needed
in his case as I don't use his position for any part of the animation
calculations.
Anthony Marsh
2019-11-05 23:51:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by C***@yahoo.com
Great job! Are those two dots going along the infield between Elm/Main as
the limo prepares to turn onto Elm, Altgens and Bothun running from their
positions at the Main/Houston intersection after taking pictures there,to
where they took pictures on Elm? I'm looking at the video on my phone so,I
can't really read the wording on the right. Good details! You even got
camera car 2 and 3 passing camera car 1!
That's right, Altgens and Bothun are indeed the dots that run from
Main/Houston across the grass. I also have Phil Willis, Hugh Betzner,
David Wiegman, and others running around as they took their photos and
films. The video really does capture the chaos and confusion that was
going on during those few minutes of history.
Yes, the text will be a bit small on a phone. Watch the video in all its
glory using a large screen and you can also see exactly how fast the cars
and people are moving. For example the Limo slows down to about 7 MPH
around the fatal shot before accelerating away at about 30 MPH as it left
under the bridge.
He didn't take photos, he says, but Charles Brehm said he also made that
run across the grass, he and his son, and he's an important witness. Maybe
he deserves a dot, too.
Brehm is indeed a very important witness, and he confirms that the third
shot was after the fatal head shot. However, I don't feel a dot is needed
WTF? You'd have no miss then the fatal head shot then a wild miss?
You need to LIST your shots the way I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
in his case as I don't use his position for any part of the animation
calculations.
Mark Tyler
2019-11-10 03:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by C***@yahoo.com
Great job! Are those two dots going along the infield between Elm/Main as
the limo prepares to turn onto Elm, Altgens and Bothun running from their
positions at the Main/Houston intersection after taking pictures there,to
where they took pictures on Elm? I'm looking at the video on my phone so,I
can't really read the wording on the right. Good details! You even got
camera car 2 and 3 passing camera car 1!
That's right, Altgens and Bothun are indeed the dots that run from
Main/Houston across the grass. I also have Phil Willis, Hugh Betzner,
David Wiegman, and others running around as they took their photos and
films. The video really does capture the chaos and confusion that was
going on during those few minutes of history.
Yes, the text will be a bit small on a phone. Watch the video in all its
glory using a large screen and you can also see exactly how fast the cars
and people are moving. For example the Limo slows down to about 7 MPH
around the fatal shot before accelerating away at about 30 MPH as it left
under the bridge.
He didn't take photos, he says, but Charles Brehm said he also made that
run across the grass, he and his son, and he's an important witness. Maybe
he deserves a dot, too.
Brehm is indeed a very important witness, and he confirms that the third
shot was after the fatal head shot. However, I don't feel a dot is needed
WTF? You'd have no miss then the fatal head shot then a wild miss?
You need to LIST your shots the way I did.
Here are the shots, when they happened, and what they did:

Shot 1 = Z185 : JFK & Connally hit.
Shot 2 = Z310 : JFK fatally hit, with shrapnel distributed towards the
front of the Limo including damaging the windshield and chrome top.
Shot 3 = Z400 : Misses the Limo; hits the road on Elm Street;
disintegrates; shrapnel hits Tague and the kerb.

There may have been more shots but there is no physically evidence, so
either they missed and caused no known damage or injuries or they didn't
happen and only three shots were fired.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
in his case as I don't use his position for any part of the animation
calculations.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-31 22:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.
However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.
I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.
Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).
Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.
I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.
As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.
Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
Thank you, and my compliments on the work you put into this
reconstruction. It's really informative. On the Occam's Razor-style
observation you acknowledged, the three shells found on the 6th floor of
the TSBD, coupled with the vast majority of earwitnesses reporting three
shots, and a shooting scenario that doesn't require more than three shots,
combined with no physical evidence of additional shots from other
locations, and an autopsy detailing there were two strikes to JFK--from
above and behind--seals it in my mind that there were only three shots
fired. Whether the first shot or third shot was the miss is less important
to me. Had Oswald escaped Ruby's well-placed bullet, Oswald would've been
hanged or electrocuted by We The People in late 1964/early 1965.
Oswald firing 3 shots alone without assistance is certainly the simplest
explanation of all the physical evidence. The fate of the third shot
seems less important, but being able to pinpoint it at Z400 does confirm
that the gunman had 12 seconds to complete the shooting, so it is of some
value in terms of timings. For example, if the assassin only had 6
seconds to fire all three shots, I would consider this to be implausible,
but 12 seconds makes perfect sense for a one man job with a bolt action
gun.

I haven't had time yet to fully evaluate the 4 shot witnesses, and the 3
shot witnesses who disagree about the timings of the shots, which is why I
still sit on the fence regarding the conspiracy angle, and whether someone
else was involved.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-30 18:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.
Have you ever read Loftus?
Post by Mark Tyler
However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
Which shot at Z230? You mean the one that hit Connally? OK, then you need
another shot to hit JFK. I have never heard of a SBT at frame 230. Surely
even YOU can see that JFK was hit BEFORE he emerged from behind the sign.
Post by Mark Tyler
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.
I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.
Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).
Well, we have loose ends because the government lied. What are you going
to do about that?
Post by Mark Tyler
Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
You have a lot of trouble explaining all the damage with only 3 shots. The
WC did not even TRY to explain the ding in the curb or the dent of the
chrome topping. And don't even acknowledge the hole n the floor. YOU can't
explain everything with 3 shot. PLUS you think one of them missed.
Post by Mark Tyler
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.
Well, no one knew the frame numbers yet. Some witnesses reported a
backfire very early.
Post by Mark Tyler
I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
WE CAN see jfk at frame 185 and he is not hit. This waas the najor flaw
of the HSCA inventing its own SBT at frame 190.
Post by Mark Tyler
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
Forget the witnesses. Stick to the hard evidence.
Post by Mark Tyler
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
You've just invented new loose ends.
Post by Mark Tyler
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
Show me where and how.
Post by Mark Tyler
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.
Bizarre. Are you forgetting the Mark on the curb? How cany ou forget
that mark, Mark? And what caused the dent of the chrome topping?
What did CE399 hit to come out looking so undamaged. You're creating new
loose ends.
Post by Mark Tyler
As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.
Do you ever ask WHY Oswald had only 4 rounds left?
Post by Mark Tyler
Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
I said AFTER the second shot, not between.
Post by Mark Tyler
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
Planned? Did he PLAN to hit the curb? Did he PLAN to hit the chrome
topping?
Mark Tyler
2019-11-01 03:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
I think there is scope for more work to be done to dig deeper into the
witness statements. Simplistic numerical analysis won't help, as we
already know that: witnesses can easily miss shots (e.g. those who only
heard 2 or fewer); some simply copycat other peoples statements; and
others even manage to change their minds years later (e.g. Jean Hill).
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
to exhaustively match *ALL* the early witness statements with the known
three noises and their timings to properly evaluate if there was a fourth
shot, or whether it was just echoes and confusion.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Indeed, a "big tent" conspiracy makes very little sense. However, either
one extra gunman being responsible for a fourth shot that missed, or
Oswald being paid to fire the three shots is far more credible, and
seemingly hard to disprove.
Look into the Kappa effect and the Tau effect when reconciling earwitness
accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect
Personally, I think the best explanation with the fewest loose ends and
assumptions is that Oswald's first shot missed, and his next two shots
found their mark. I have a tough time believing Oswald would've kept
firing after seeing the results of the head shot; it was Mission
Accomplished, and time to attempt his great escape from his workplace,
which, with a little luck, he pulled off.
I think the Tau effect (or something like it) helps to explain why people
in Dealey Plaza perceived the time between the shot which hit JFK in the
back, and then in the head, as closer together.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval.[1]"
Thanks for providing the links regarding the Kappa and Tau effects, which
I do think is very relevant in this case regarding witness testimony.
After having spent some time trying to understand the different witness
statements I think you are correct that peoples perceptions of time cannot
be properly relied upon. For example some witnesses said the entire
shooting sequence was just five seconds, whereas others said it was
fifteen seconds.
Have you ever read Loftus?
No, I've never read Loftus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
However, in this case we don't just rely on the witness accounts because
we have the various films and photos which pinpoint where two of the shots
had their effect (i.e. Z207-Z230 and Z313 in the Zapruder film). Using
Which shot at Z230? You mean the one that hit Connally? OK, then you need
another shot to hit JFK. I have never heard of a SBT at frame 230. Surely
even YOU can see that JFK was hit BEFORE he emerged from behind the sign.
The first shot was at Z185, but the Stemmons freeway sign hid the victims
until Z224-Z230 when they are visibly reacting. The HSCA said that JFK
froze and shook his head at Z207, hence the first reaction to the Z185
shot. Connally has always said he reacted to his injury about 2 seconds
or so after he heard the first shot which fits the gap Z185-Z224.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
all of this information I think we can "filter" the truth from the
contradictions, which is the idea behind my animation which aims to be
consistent with all of the known and corroborated facts so we can discard
the red herrings.
I like your expression "the best explanation with the fewest loose ends
and assumptions": it reminds me of Occam's razor. I agree 100% with this
sentiment, but unfortunately we can never rule out all possibilities such
as conspiracies or two shots being fired very close together, which is why
sadly I must sit on the fence.
Despite my fence sitting posture I think there are essential only a few
i.e. 3, 4, 5, or possibly an outside chance of up to 6 (in 3 bunches,
where each pair was fired in very close succession).
Well, we have loose ends because the government lied. What are you going
to do about that?
The lying and cover up are a separate issue, and shouldn't be conflated
with the crime scene investigation.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Your post indicates that you believe Oswald fired three shots, with nobody
else firing. I think this is possibly what happened in 1963, however
You have a lot of trouble explaining all the damage with only 3 shots. The
WC did not even TRY to explain the ding in the curb or the dent of the
chrome topping. And don't even acknowledge the hole n the floor. YOU can't
explain everything with 3 shot. PLUS you think one of them missed.
Shot 1 = JFK & Connally hit.
Shot 2 = JFK fatally hit, with shrapnel distributed towards the front of
the Limo including damaging the windshield and chrome top.
Shot 3 = Misses the Limo, hits the road, shrapnel hits Tague and the
kerb.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
there is a contradiction between your scenario and what the witnesses
reported. You propose a missed shot followed by two hits such as a gun
being fired at: Z150, Z215, Z310. The problem here is that no witnesses
report a shot as early as Z150-Z170, and you have missed the shot over a
dozen witnesses report around Z370-Z430.
Well, no one knew the frame numbers yet. Some witnesses reported a
backfire very early.
All of the people alongside the car on Elm Street, and below the TSBD,
report a loud shot Z185-Z195, but not before.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
I accept that my ideas regarding a late shot are not fashionable with
either lone gunman theorists, or conspiracy theorists, which is why I have
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
The shot sequences are discussed in section 6. The most likely three shot
scenario is: Z185, Z310, and Z400. The animated reconstruction combining
WE CAN see jfk at frame 185 and he is not hit. This waas the najor flaw
of the HSCA inventing its own SBT at frame 190.
Z185 was when the trigger was pulled. The victims were hit circa Z187;
Betzner & Willis heard a loud noise Z190-Z200 which we can pinpoint
relative to their photos at Z186 & Z202. The Zapruder film is *VERY*
blurry Z190-Z200 in reaction to an external stimulus. These are all
physical reactions to a physical event. The HSCA hit the nail on the
head: all credit to them and Luis Alvarez for their detailed work.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
information from the films and photos can be used to interpret the witness
statements, and this conforms to your extremely wise statement "the best
Forget the witnesses. Stick to the hard evidence.
The witness testimony is evidence, especially when corroborated with
photos and films.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
explanation with the fewest loose ends and assumptions". For example it
You've just invented new loose ends.
Post by Mark Tyler
was the third shot which missed and hit the road, with the shrapnel
Show me where and how.
Post by Mark Tyler
hitting James Tague in a straight line trajectory from the sixth floor
window. In other words, basic physics explains that event with no bizarre
events such as the first shot hitting a branch and skewing off at an
obtuse angle.
Bizarre. Are you forgetting the Mark on the curb? How cany ou forget
that mark, Mark? And what caused the dent of the chrome topping?
What did CE399 hit to come out looking so undamaged. You're creating new
loose ends.
Post by Mark Tyler
As to your assumption that the head shot was the last I think this is to
misunderstand his psychology and predicament. In your scenario, Lee
Harvey Oswald has four bullets in his gun and he wants to shoot the
President to make his mark on the world and destroy the evil capitalist
system (as he saw it). He knew he would never get another chance like
that again in his life: it was a one off, a happenstance, and possibly a
suicide mission. Why would he stop at one or two shots? I suspect his
adrenaline was pumping and he tried to rattle off as many shots as he
could to inflict as much damage as possible to ensure his goal was
achieved.
Do you ever ask WHY Oswald had only 4 rounds left?
No, that's not something I explore in this project. Its a good question
when exploring Oswald's behaviour prior to the assassination though.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Plus, don't forget the gap from pulling the trigger at Z310, and Z400 is
only 5 seconds and the car was accelerating away so he had no time to sit
back and reflect on the situation. Perhaps if the bolt hadn't jammed
between the first two shots like Tony Marsh has suggested, he may have had
I said AFTER the second shot, not between.
Yes, but your second shot is my first shot remember. The 6-7 second gap
is between Z185 and Z310 which is longer than the gap Z310-Z400. In my
book I quote Malcolm Kilduff who said the longer gap was between the first
two shots.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
time to crack off a fourth shot like he planned the night before when he
prepared the gun with four bullets?
Planned? Did he PLAN to hit the curb? Did he PLAN to hit the chrome
topping?
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-23 16:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Ha ha, indeed!
Ironically I am a fence sitter regarding whether there were 3 or 4 shots,
its just that I feel the acoustics angle is weak due to a poor chain of
evidence and concrete evidence debunking the HSCA claims.
I am more persuaded by over a dozen witnesses who either said that they
heard: 4 shots fired; 3 shots fired, but they clearly missed the first or
last one.
Interesting about the 3 shot witnesses that by implication should be 4
shot witnesses. I am an LN probably 99%+ convinced Oswald landed all the
shots that did any damage and at least 95%+ that he had no help. Of course
no one can ever say with 100% certainty that no other shots were fired by
others that missed, though I believe reverberations and/or faulty memories
likely account for the 4 shot witnesses.
Post by Mark Tyler
However, with the possibility of echoes and reverberations explaining the
fourth shot, its hard to be certain of anything which is why I sit on the
fence.
IMO that's always wise if one has not reached (functional) certainty on
this or any other controversy. Not necessary to enter the fray as a
dogmatist either way if confidence is lacking. I was once an undecided
leaning conspiracy---though never a "big tent" conspiracy since I knew by
common sense that in the "real world" that was very highly unlikely. So I
can well understand taking time to investigate facts from fictions and
gestate the results before arriving at any firm conclusions.
Can you agree that 4 shots proves conspiracy?
Or could you find eome way for Oswald to fire 4 shots from the sniper's
nest and leave behind no hints of the 4 shots?
Can you agree that a bullet wound on the forehead proves that a shot was
fired from the front? Can you figure out some way that Oswald ould have
fired that shot?

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Anthony Marsh
2019-10-20 18:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
I rest my case Mark!
Silly. I simply pointed out hat he was wrong. You fon't even have Six
Seconds in Dallas.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-19 22:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
In the animation the Mayors car position closely approximates the HSCA
microphone positions as it turned the corner from Houston onto Elm at the
points: Z160, Z190, Z295, Z313. However, as I explain in my book, there
was no audible shot at Z160, and nothing audible from the knoll was
reported by those within 20 yards (i.e. Zapruder and Sitzman). In other
words the acoustics analysis is contradicted by the films, and the
witnesses. I don't rule out 4 shots, but the HSCA scenario is wrong.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
Yes, I have read "Six Seconds in Dallas" and quoted it in my work,
including pointing out one of two mistakes I found. Having said that, the
book is worth reading for its detailed analysis.

Its not just about the numbers though, its about parsing and understanding
what the witnesses are saying in each case. For example, Moorman said
there were 3 shots, but she missed the first one that hit Kennedy and
Connally. Therefore several of the "3 shot" witnesses are actually
supporting the 4 shot scenario. In other words, simplistic numerical
analysis can be misleading in a complex case like this.

Check out section 6 here for a discussion on the shot sequence:

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
19efppp
2019-10-20 18:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
In the animation the Mayors car position closely approximates the HSCA
microphone positions as it turned the corner from Houston onto Elm at the
points: Z160, Z190, Z295, Z313. However, as I explain in my book, there
was no audible shot at Z160, and nothing audible from the knoll was
reported by those within 20 yards (i.e. Zapruder and Sitzman). In other
words the acoustics analysis is contradicted by the films, and the
witnesses. I don't rule out 4 shots, but the HSCA scenario is wrong.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
Yes, I have read "Six Seconds in Dallas" and quoted it in my work,
including pointing out one of two mistakes I found. Having said that, the
book is worth reading for its detailed analysis.
Its not just about the numbers though, its about parsing and understanding
what the witnesses are saying in each case. For example, Moorman said
there were 3 shots, but she missed the first one that hit Kennedy and
Connally. Therefore several of the "3 shot" witnesses are actually
supporting the 4 shot scenario. In other words, simplistic numerical
analysis can be misleading in a complex case like this.
Yes sir! If you analyze what some "3-shot" witnesses say, they are
actually "4-shot" witnesses. Some people pretend to not understand this.
Post by Mark Tyler
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-22 19:08:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
In the animation the Mayors car position closely approximates the HSCA
microphone positions as it turned the corner from Houston onto Elm at the
points: Z160, Z190, Z295, Z313. However, as I explain in my book, there
was no audible shot at Z160, and nothing audible from the knoll was
reported by those within 20 yards (i.e. Zapruder and Sitzman). In other
words the acoustics analysis is contradicted by the films, and the
witnesses. I don't rule out 4 shots, but the HSCA scenario is wrong.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
Yes, I have read "Six Seconds in Dallas" and quoted it in my work,
including pointing out one of two mistakes I found. Having said that, the
book is worth reading for its detailed analysis.
Its not just about the numbers though, its about parsing and understanding
what the witnesses are saying in each case. For example, Moorman said
there were 3 shots, but she missed the first one that hit Kennedy and
Connally. Therefore several of the "3 shot" witnesses are actually
supporting the 4 shot scenario. In other words, simplistic numerical
analysis can be misleading in a complex case like this.
Yes sir! If you analyze what some "3-shot" witnesses say, they are
actually "4-shot" witnesses. Some people pretend to not understand this.
No, that is silly.
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-26 00:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
In the animation the Mayors car position closely approximates the HSCA
microphone positions as it turned the corner from Houston onto Elm at the
points: Z160, Z190, Z295, Z313. However, as I explain in my book, there
was no audible shot at Z160, and nothing audible from the knoll was
reported by those within 20 yards (i.e. Zapruder and Sitzman). In other
words the acoustics analysis is contradicted by the films, and the
witnesses. I don't rule out 4 shots, but the HSCA scenario is wrong.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
The chain has been broken.
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
Yes, I have read "Six Seconds in Dallas" and quoted it in my work,
including pointing out one of two mistakes I found. Having said that, the
book is worth reading for its detailed analysis.
Its not just about the numbers though, its about parsing and understanding
what the witnesses are saying in each case. For example, Moorman said
there were 3 shots, but she missed the first one that hit Kennedy and
Connally. Therefore several of the "3 shot" witnesses are actually
supporting the 4 shot scenario. In other words, simplistic numerical
analysis can be misleading in a complex case like this.
Yes sir! If you analyze what some "3-shot" witnesses say, they are
actually "4-shot" witnesses. Some people pretend to not understand this.
False. You can add additional shots that YOU believe in, but that does
not mean they SAID 4 shots.

Please list every witness who said exactly 4 shots.
Post by 19efppp
Post by Mark Tyler
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-21 04:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
As I said before, you always chicken out when asked to back up your
claims. If you have a cute theory, PROVE it.
Post by Mark Tyler
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
No0, silly. They TESTED their hypothesis, something that people like you
can not do.
Post by Mark Tyler
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
They did, the HSCA did, I did.
Post by Mark Tyler
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
Read the damn report.
Are you going to claim that the test shots were not fired in Dealey
Plaza? That's what there comparing it to.
Post by Mark Tyler
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
No, that is not true. You have nothing.
Post by Mark Tyler
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
, OK then, show me your matched to the Mayor's car.
In the animation the Mayors car position closely approximates the HSCA
microphone positions as it turned the corner from Houston onto Elm at the
No. You don't even know where the cycle would have to be for the first shot.
Post by Mark Tyler
points: Z160, Z190, Z295, Z313. However, as I explain in my book, there
The HSCA frames are WRONG. How can they have a SBT at frame 190 when
even YOU can see that neither man was wounded before they went behind
the sign? That is one of the first errors I pointed out to them.
They were afraid to admit that the grassy knoll shot hit.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/headshot.txt


Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993

As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount. Unless all four were hit by
bullets (a practical impossibility), their forward movement must be caused
by something else. The most likely cause is inertia due to the limousine
having suddenly slowed down. Dr. Luis Alvarez noted in his study [1] that
the average velocity of the limousine going down Elm Street sharply
decreased just before the head shot. Some researchers have theorized that
Secret Service agent Bill Greer jammed on the brakes or took his foot off
the accelerator. Whatever he did, the limousine very quickly changed from
an average velocity of about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH just before the head
shot. Obeying the law of inertia, passengers in the limo were thrust
forward in relation to their previous positions in the limousine. Further
evidence of this effect is the fact that the Connallys continued to move
forward while President Kennedy was being thrust backwards. I have not
done a similar analysis of previous Zapruder frames to pinpoint the start
of the occupants' forward movement, so I would urge others to do so
themselves, in order to verify my results and observations. Figure 1.





Z-frame rollbar Nellie Connally Jackie JFK
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
x/60" Z312 136 106 77 44 159
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 9 forward 5 forward 10 forward 6 forward 7
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z313 145 111 87 38 152
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z314 147 113 88 39 151
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 0 forward 4 forward 6 rearward 6
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z315 151 113 92 33 157
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 rearward 9
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z316 148 115 93 34 166
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 7 forward 4
rearward 11
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z317 150 117 100 30 177
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 5 forward 2 rearward 5
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z319 153 122 NA 28 182
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 0 forward 4 forward 3
rearward 14
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z320 153 126 130 25 196
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z321 157 NA NA 26 195


Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots. All times are measured in seconds
after the microphone became stuck open for several minutes. BBN found 4
shots on the tape, 3 of which came from the TSBD at 137.70, 139.27, and
145.61 respectively. The grassy knoll shot was found by Weiss and
Aschkenasy to be recorded at 144.90. There was a fifth set of impulses
which was rejected by HSCA as being a false alarm at 140.32. I have looked
at the waveforms more closely to try to determine when the muzzle blast of
each shot was recorded, to a greater degree of accuracy. My best estimate
for each shot is 137.702, 139.268, 140.339, 144.895, and 145.608. You can
get a general idea of the spacing between shots by subtracting one time
from another. But there is an additional variable which must be taken into
account. BBN found that the recorder used that day was running about 5%
slow, so all times must be multiplied by about 1.05 in order to restore
the original spacing. A more accurate correction factor might be borrowed
from the work which W&A did on the grassy knoll shot. They found that a
correction factor of 1.043 produced the best fit for echo delays compared
to their predicted model. Another possible corroboration for the 1.043
correction factor is the 'bell' sound found by BBN at 152.5. Although Todd
Vaughan believes that it is only electrical interference, if we can
determine its true frequency, we can derive the most accurate correction
factor. That holds true for many other sounds on the tape, such as car
horns, tire squeals, police sirens, etc. BBN found that the 'bell' sound
had a nominal pitch of 420 Hz. This is close to the note A, which is
usually 440 Hz. If the sound is really a bell, it might have been tuned to
A=440. We do not know for sure what type of bell it was. Most people have
assumed that it is a carillon bell, but it could be a train bell, a ship's
bell, or a victory bell on a college campus. There are a couple of other
possible tunings which would produce a correction factor close to 1.043.
If the bell had been tuned using a mean-tone temperament scale, it might
have a real pitch of 438.075 Hz. Dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.0430357. If the bell had been tuned to an old
English standard of A=438.9, dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.045. Applying the correction factor to the spacing
between shots as found by BBN will give us the true spacing between muzzle
blasts picked up by McLain's cycle. If we want to then translate those
into Zapruder frames, we must multiply each interval by 18.3 frames.
Figure 2 is a rough approximation of how many frames there were between
all 5 muzzle blasts.
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.



Figure 2.
origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame
TSBD 137.702 162 176
Post by Mark Tyler
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by Mark Tyler
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by Mark Tyler
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by Mark Tyler
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327

The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD. I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot. If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313. Photographic enhancement of the Zapruder film,
Muchmore film or the Bronson film might reveal that the windshield was not
cracked by Z-314. If that turns out to be true, then the last shot from
the TSBD must have missed JFK's head and hit the windshield. In turn, that
would mean that the fatal head shot came from the grassy knoll. I
seriously doubt that there is any photograph which would show exactly when
the rearview mirror was dented, but perhaps some as-yet-undiscovered
photograph would show when the chrome topping was dented. That dent could
only have been caused by a shot from behind the limo. If it was undented
at Z-314, that would prove that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version
or mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA
admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll
shot was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the
impulses to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is
indicated in brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The
jiggle analysis measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To
simply and clarify, I have put the groups into ascending order. The group
with the largest amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B',
etc. I have chosen the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are
usually midway between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran
at 18.3 frames per second on average.

Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data
Frames Group
158-159 D
191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not
227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.
290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before
313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.
331-332 A2

HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle
137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B
139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1
[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C
144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1
145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2


The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact
had heard the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would
not, in and of itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the
dent could have been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would
narrow the range during which the chrome topping was dented to between
Z-313 to Z-331 and make it more likely that the chrome topping was dented
at the same time that the windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier
as some have speculated.
On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the
statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the
grassy knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the
direct path of gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that
the head shot came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the
TSBD. Emmett Hudson, who was standing on the steps leading up to the
pergola, said that the shots sounded as if they came from behind him,
above his head and to his left. That would place the origin near the
fence. Zapruder felt that the head shot had come from behind him and
whistled past his right ear. Between these two witnesses and behind them
is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable shockwave at 24 ms.
before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot. Assuming the weapon was
aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough calculation of the velocity of
the bullet and the resultant angle of the shockwave. Although the
calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too difficult for me, a
rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet at about 1564.5
fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on either side
of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within the cone
of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.
How can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it
had been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have
been outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not
have been recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can
be found in the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he
was shown a very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the
viewpoint was looking right down the barrel of the gun. Given Mary
Moorman's position, the gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In
Moorman 2 we can see the head of a man peering over the fence, about 9
feet from the corner. Interestingly, this is the same spot where W&A
located the origin of the grassy knoll shot, unaware of the existence of
Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view of any weapon as we
might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever this man was, he
moved from that position very quickly after the head shot. There is no one
there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton photograph, taken
shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has never been
analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were unaware of
its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I found it
at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to properly
analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal the
presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher, Dale
Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a
person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.
Many witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films.
Some fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize
the danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the
grassy knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave
whizzing past them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe
their reactions was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can
see Hudson and his two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola.
They do not seem to be reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see
that two of the men are reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men
would not have reacted to the sound of a shockwave coming from so close
behind them. If the grassy knoll shot was the miss before the head shot,
we would expect to see these men react before the head shot. The fact that
they did not react until after the head shot would seem to indicate that
the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Based on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is
more likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Existing
evidence can and should be examined further. More information can be
gleaned from existing data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data
could provide new clues and allow us to verify certain methods, such as
the acoustical studies. I urge other researchers to look for new evidence
and perform new analyses.

------
1. W. Peter Trower, ed., "Discovering Alvarez", (Chicago: The University
Press, 1987), pp. 210-224. Also HSCA Vol. I, pp. 428-442.
2. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, p.80, footnote 16
Post by Mark Tyler
was no audible shot at Z160, and nothing audible from the knoll was
reported by those within 20 yards (i.e. Zapruder and Sitzman). In other
Again, you keep spouting nonsense which I have debunked here every year.
Zapruder said a shot came from behind him. Newman said a shot came from
bhind him.
Post by Mark Tyler
words the acoustics analysis is contradicted by the films, and the
witnesses. I don't rule out 4 shots, but the HSCA scenario is wrong.
I already said that. I do not rely on the HSCA. They were a compromise.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
Well, yes, McLain was recrording BEFORE he drove into Dealey Plaza AND
after he left Dealey Plaza. So you think the shots were fired on the
Stemmons Freeway?
Post by Mark Tyler
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
Then what was it at those decibel levels? Farts?
Post by Mark Tyler
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
Science is often needed to solve real world crimes.
Try to claim that BBN was wrong about Kent State and no shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
Before the W&A analysis, the HSCA waspreparing to rubber stamp the WC.
You weren't around then, I was.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
Please list ALL the witnessess who said that exact 4 shots were fired.
Post by Mark Tyler
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
OK. Never rely on witnesses. Rely on SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
No, silly. You don't have the majority of witnesses saying exactly 4
shots. Ever read Six Seconds in Dallas?
Yes, I have read "Six Seconds in Dallas" and quoted it in my work,
including pointing out one of two mistakes I found. Having said that, the
book is worth reading for its detailed analysis.
Its not just about the numbers though, its about parsing and understanding
what the witnesses are saying in each case. For example, Moorman said
there were 3 shots, but she missed the first one that hit Kennedy and
Connally. Therefore several of the "3 shot" witnesses are actually
supporting the 4 shot scenario. In other words, simplistic numerical
analysis can be misleading in a complex case like this.
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
You have cherrypicked what you eant and ignored other evidence.
Or maybe you were not allowed to see all the files.

For example, some of the earliest statements.

https://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/Zapruder.htm
FORREST TRUMP
2019-10-18 13:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
Do you read Gallery magazine?
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-19 13:36:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by FORREST TRUMP
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
Do you read Gallery magazine?
I don't read it. I just look at the pictures.
But I do have the original issue with the 45 record.
Steve Barber
2019-10-19 22:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by FORREST TRUMP
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
Do you read Gallery magazine?
I don't read it. I just look at the pictures.
But I do have the original issue with the 45 record.
Details...details! It isn't a "45 record". It's a 33 1/3 recording.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-19 22:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by FORREST TRUMP
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
Then how were xhots recorded? Mahic? If you ever read the HSCA one of the
dissenters said that the shots were real, but came from far away and the
sound go picked up in Dealey Plaza due to "acoutstic ducting." That still
places the microphone in Dealey Plaza. Maybe you could make up a theory
that the microphone was in a cop car instead of on a motorcycle. But if
you actually LISTEN to the tape you can hear the tires squeal as it rounds
a corner, shifting gears, and a spark just before he turns on his siren
and then the other sirens around him slowing down and speeding. None of
that is possible with a cop car or a cycle parked at the Trade Mart.
The echo patterns only match Dealey Plaza. Try matching to any other
location. I double dare ya!
I can understand and sympathize with your wanting to protect the
conspirators, but you can't just throw out SCIENCE.
Post by Mark Tyler
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
And in fact, I was the only one to point out that their map was
inaccurate. The matches might not be within 2 or 3 inches, but they are
still withing the margin of error. Ever scientific theory has a margin of
error.
Post by Mark Tyler
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Well, that is simply not true. Going down Elm the cycle is not in the
middle of the street. The Mayor's car is. McLain was to the LEFT of the
Mayor's car. Your own animation shows the Mayor's car in the MIDDLE lane,
not the LEFT lane. So you have a cute idea, but your own data disproves
it.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
OK, then find dome noise, any noise and get a match using my computer
program. That idea alone caves in and admits that it was McLain's cycle.
Post by Mark Tyler
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Then go ahead and modify my computer program to make a fit to your
imaginary three wheel cycle on Stemmons.
It would help if you could SHOW me where this imaginary three-wheel cycle
is or just mark the location on the map and then we can figure out the
Cartesian coordinates and then plug them into the computer program.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
If the dictabelt sounds were recorded in Dealey Plaza then the acoustical
analysis is of value. However if it was from somewhere else then the
acoustical analysis is useless. That is the crux of the issue. We
shouldn't have to guess where it was recorded, there should be a chain of
evidence that can be traced back. Sadly this is not what the scientists
did, they only narrowly studied the sound waves on the dictabelt compared
to a re-enactment, so their analysis is more circumstantial than a direct
proof.
1. Prove which vehicle had a microphone recording at the time of the
assassination, and show that they were positioned where the re-enactment
predicted them to be.
2. Prove that the pattern of sound waves were gunshots from Dealey Plaza.
The main candidate for 1 is H.B. McLain, but as I and Dale Myers have
proven he was over 100 feet away so this is a poor match. The only other
vehicle left is the Mayor's car, so if we exclude that as well then the
A1. The sounds may not have been recorded in Dealey Plaza.
A2. The sounds may not have been gunshots.
I fully understand your belief in the scientific and numerical analysis,
but this is a real world crime scene and the chain of evidence in the case
has not been established so we cannot call this proof. In short, the
acoustical analysis is suffering from the proverbial "missing link", and
until one is found there is nothing to analyse other than wishful
thinking.
The last point I need to make is: So what if we can't rely on the
dictabelt?
The HSCA made it very clear that the proof of conspiracy was not solely
based on the acoustical analysis. There were about a dozen or so
witnesses who insisted that 4 shots were fired. In addition, some of the
witnesses who described 3 shots clearly missed the first or last one fired
(e.g. Mary Moorman, who missed the first).
Any proof of multiple gunmen (i.e. 4 or more shots), lies with witness
analysis rather than acoustical analysis.
Do you read Gallery magazine?
I have never read Gallery magazine.
BT George
2019-10-14 14:52:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Don't sweat it. 45% of Tony's entire existence depends on the Dictabelt
"Evidence" being true. Another 45% depends on arguing with *everyone*
here about *everything*. The other 10%? Well I guess eating and sleeping
must occur somewhere.
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-15 02:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Don't sweat it. 45% of Tony's entire existence depends on the Dictabelt
"Evidence" being true. Another 45% depends on arguing with *everyone*
Excuse me? So you're just going to throw out the Zapruder film and the
mdical evidence? I know, I know, anything based on SCIENCE is evil to you.
Post by BT George
here about *everything*. The other 10%? Well I guess eating and sleeping
Well, someone has to do it. If you guys hadn't scared away all the other
conspiracy believers, I wouldn't have to do all the work.
Post by BT George
must occur somewhere.
Silly. Maybe I can eat and type at the same time.
Maybe you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
BT George
2019-10-16 01:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Don't sweat it. 45% of Tony's entire existence depends on the Dictabelt
"Evidence" being true. Another 45% depends on arguing with *everyone*
Excuse me? So you're just going to throw out the Zapruder film and the
mdical evidence? I know, I know, anything based on SCIENCE is evil to you.
And for this contribution, Tony *again* wins the coveted "Non-Sequitur of
the Week" award.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
here about *everything*. The other 10%? Well I guess eating and sleeping
Well, someone has to do it. If you guys hadn't scared away all the other
conspiracy believers, I wouldn't have to do all the work.
Post by BT George
must occur somewhere.
Silly. Maybe I can eat and type at the same time.
Maybe you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
OK. Gotta' admit that's pretty good.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-18 01:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Dale has done some interesting work over the years. I have cited his work
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf
If you check the index for "Myers", and click on the blue links you can
see where I referred to him. In a nutshell I agree with his central
thesis that H.B. McLain could not have recorded the sounds of gunshots on
How far are you willing to go? Do you claim that no shots were recorded or
that the shots were recorded in a different location or that a different
cycle recorded the shots not McLain?
My claim is that the HSCA scientists described a sequence of events that
was wrong. There was no motorbike anywhere near where they said the
microphone needed to be. Without this, the 95% probability of a fourth
shot from the knoll collapses because the higher figure relies upon the
specific positions of the microphone to be true.
I don't rule out the dictabelt as potentially useful, but no plausible
scenario seems to fit. As I say in the handbook the closest vehicle to
the alleged microphone positions was the Mayor's car, but that seems a
stretch and it doesn't explain the motorbike noise which must have come
from somewhere else.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Would you go far enough to claim that the shots are fake or only noise?
Can you or Dale match random noise to the shots that W&A identified? Have
you used my computer program to test other shooter locations?
I see this situation as case unproved, and possibly unknowable. There are
any number of possible explanations for the impulses, including: noise in
the microphone, noise on the belt, shots in Dealey Plaza, a three wheeled
bike on Stemmons Freeway, etc. Without proper scientific corroboration we
can only speculate.
Don't sweat it. 45% of Tony's entire existence depends on the Dictabelt
"Evidence" being true. Another 45% depends on arguing with *everyone*
Excuse me? So you're just going to throw out the Zapruder film and the
mdical evidence? I know, I know, anything based on SCIENCE is evil to you.
And for this contribution, Tony *again* wins the coveted "Non-Sequitur of
the Week" award.
False. I was directly rebutting youtmisstatement wbout what percentage
of my work was based on the Dictabelt.
Try to focus.
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
here about *everything*. The other 10%? Well I guess eating and sleeping
Well, someone has to do it. If you guys hadn't scared away all the other
conspiracy believers, I wouldn't have to do all the work.
Post by BT George
must occur somewhere.
Silly. Maybe I can eat and type at the same time.
Maybe you can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
OK. Gotta' admit that's pretty good.
A hisorical reference that none of the deadheads here got.
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark Tyler
the dictabelt. I disagree with some parts of his work as you do, but my
criticisms shouldn't distract from the bigger issue of McLain and the
dictabelt.
As the old saying goes "the man who never made any mistakes, never made
anything". Both Dale and myself are productive people, so we will
inevitably make mistakes. Its not the end of the world though, you simply
correct the mistakes in the next version of the work. Whether this be a
book, a computer program, or a diagram, the principle is the same: keep on
truckin!
BT George
2019-10-10 23:01:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Rest Tony. Rest. You, Blakey, and GKnoll/Mike Rago are the only people
left on the planet that believe in the Dicatbelt "Evidence". But I am sure
that you 3--and you 3 alone--can save the universe from all the
wrong-headed rest of humanity.
Anthony Marsh
2019-10-12 13:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Rest Tony. Rest. You, Blakey, and GKnoll/Mike Rago are the only people
left on the planet that believe in the Dicatbelt "Evidence". But I am sure
that you 3--and you 3 alone--can save the universe from all the
wrong-headed rest of humanity.
That is simply not true. You don't even know any conspiracy researchers
so you are just making up crap. You don't even know who D.B. Thomas is.
And you intentionally left out W&A and BBN. W&A did further analysis and
found more details, and BBN perfected the science to create technology
that detects the origin of gun shots, used by our military and police.


Maybe you've never been in the real world so you never heard of these
things.


Gunfire locator
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Boomerang, a gunfire locator, being used by British forces in Afghanistan

A gunfire locator or gunshot detection system is a system that detects
and conveys the location of gunfire or other weapon fire using acoustic,
optical, or potentially other types of sensors, as well as a combination
of such sensors. These systems are used by law enforcement, security,
military and businesses to identify the source and, in some cases, the
direction of gunfire and/or the type of weapon fired. Most systems
possess three main components:

An array of microphones or sensors either co-located or
geographically dispersed
A processing unit
A user-interface that displays gunfire alerts

Systems used in urban settings integrate a geographic information system
so the display includes a map and address location of each incident.
Contents

1 History
2 Gunfire characteristics
3 Design
3.1 Sensing method
3.1.1 Acoustic
3.1.2 Optical
3.2 Discriminating gunfire
3.3 Architectures
4 Applications
4.1 Public safety
4.2 Military and defense
4.3 Wildlife poaching
4.4 Open source hardware initiatives
5 See also
6 Notes
7 External links

History

Determination of the origin of gunfire by sound was conceived before
World War I where it was first used operationally (see: Artillery sound
ranging).

In the early 1990s, the areas of East Palo Alto and eastern Menlo Park,
California, were besieged with crime. During 1992 there were 42
homicides in East Palo Alto, which resulted in East Palo Alto becoming
the murder capital of the United States. The Menlo Park police
department was often called upon to investigate when residents reported
gunshots; however there was no way to determine their source from
scattered 911 calls.

In late 1992, John C. Lahr, a PhD seismologist at the nearby United
States Geological Survey, approached the Menlo Park police department to
ask if they would be interested in applying seismological techniques to
locate gunshots. Others had also approached the Menlo Park police
department suggesting ways to help the police by means of gunshot
location systems. The police chief arranged a meeting with local
inventors and entrepreneurs who had expressed an interest in the
problem. At that time there were no solutions to tracking gunshots, only
a desire to do so. One key attendee was Robert Showen, a Stanford
Research Institute employee and expert in acoustics.[citation needed]

Lahr decided to go ahead with his plans to demonstrate the feasibility
of locating the gunshots, relying on his background in the earthquake
location techniques and monitoring in Alaska. A network consisting of
one wired and four radio-telemetered microphones was established, with
his home in eastern Menlo Park becoming the command center. Lahr
modified the software typically used for locating earthquakes and
recorded the data at a higher sample rate than is used for regional
seismology. After gunshots were heard, Lahr would determine their
location while his wife monitored the police radio for independent
confirmation of their source.

Using this system, Lahr was able to demonstrate to the police and others
that this technique was highly effective, as the system was able to
locate gunshots occurring within the array to within a few tens of
meters. Although additional techniques from the seismic world were known
that could better automate the system and increase its reliability,
those improvements were outside the scope of this feasibility
study.[citation needed]
Gunfire characteristics

There are three primary attributes that characterize gunfire and hence
enable the detection and location of gunfire and similar weapon discharges:

An optical flash that occurs when an explosive charge is ignited to
propel a projectile from the chamber of the weapon
A typical muzzle blast generates an impulse sound wave with a sound
pressure level (SPL) that ranges from 120 dB to 160 dB
A shock wave that occurs as a projectile moves through the air at
supersonic speed. Note, this does not apply to several types of
handguns, whose bullet projectiles do not exceed 1200 feet per second
(i.e. the speed of sound).

Optical flashes can be detected using optical and/or infrared sensing
techniques; however there must be a line of sight from the sensor to the
weapon, otherwise the flash will not be seen. Indirect flashes that
bounce off nearby structures such as walls, trees, and rocks assist in
exposing concealed or limited line-of-sight detections between the
weapon and the sensor. Because only optical flashes are detected, such
systems are typically capable of determining only the bearing of a
discharge relative to sensor unless multiple systems triangulate the
shot range. Multiple gunshots, fired from multiple locations at nearly
the same time, are easily discriminated as separate gunshots because the
sensors generally utilize a focal plane array consisting of many
sensitive pixels. Each pixel in the entire focal plane (e.g. 640×480
pixels) is constantly evaluated.

The projectile generally must travel within 50 to 100 meters of a sensor
in order for the sensor to hear the shockwave. The combination of a
muzzle blast and a shockwave provides additional information that can be
used along with the physics of acoustics and sound propagation to
determine the range of a discharge to the sensor, especially if the
round or type of projectile is known. Assault rifles are more commonly
used in battle scenarios where it is important for potential targets to
be immediately alerted to the position of enemy fire. A system that can
hear minute differences in the arrival time of the muzzle blast and also
hear a projectile's shockwave “snap” can calculate the origin of the
discharge. Multiple gunshots, fired from multiple locations at nearly
the same time, such as those found in an ambush, can provide ambiguous
signals resulting in location ambiguities.

Gunfire acoustics must be distinguished reliably from noises that can
sound similar, such as firework explosions and cars backfiring.

Urban areas typically exhibit diurnal noise patterns where background
noise is higher during the daytime and lower at night, where the noise
floor directly correlates to urban activity (e.g., automobile traffic,
airplane traffic, construction, and so on). During the day, when the
noise floor is higher, a typical handgun muzzle blast may propagate as
much as a mile. During the night, when the noise floor is lower, a
typical handgun muzzle blast may propagate as much as 2 miles.
Therefore, a co-located array of microphones or a distributed array of
acoustic sensors that hear a muzzle blast at different times can
contribute to calculating the location of the origin of the discharge
provided that each microphone/sensor can specify to within a millisecond
when it detected the impulse. Using this information, it is possible to
discriminate between gunfire and normal community noises by placing
acoustic sensors at wide distances so that only extremely loud sounds
(i.e., gunfire) can reach several sensors; this has been termed a
‘spatial filter’ in the first patent issued to ShotSpotter, Inc.[1]

Infrared detection systems have a similar advantage at night because the
sensor does not have to contend with any solar contributions to the
background signal. At night, the signature of the gunshot will not be
partially hidden within the background of solar infrared contributions.
Most flash suppressors are designed to minimize the visible signature of
the gunfire. Flash suppressors break up the expanding gases into focused
cones, thereby minimizing the blossoming effect of the exploding gasses.
These focused cones contain more of the signature in a smaller volume.
The added signal strength helps to increase detection range.

Because both the optical flash and muzzle blast are muffled by flash
suppressors and muzzle blast suppressors (also known as “silencers”),
the efficacy of gunshot detection systems may be reduced for suppressed
weapons. The FBI estimates that 1% or fewer of crimes that involve
gunfire are committed with suppressed guns.[citation needed]
Design
Sensing method

Gunshot location systems generally require one or more sensing
modalities to detect either the fact that a weapon has been fired or to
detect the projectile fired by the weapon. To date, only sound and
visual or infrared light have successfully been used as sensing
technologies. Both applications can be implemented to detect gunfire
under static and dynamic conditions. Most police related systems can be
permanently mounted, mapped and correlated as the sensors remain in
place for long periods. Military and SWAT actions, on the other hand,
operate in more dynamic environments requiring a fast setup time or a
capability to operate while the sensors are on move.
Acoustic
Further information: Acoustic source localization and Acoustic location

Acoustic systems "listen" for either the bullet bow shockwave (the sound
either of the projectile or bullet as it passes through the air), the
sound of the muzzle blast of the weapon when it fires the projectile, or
a combination of both.

Due to their ability to sense at great distances, to sense in a non
line-of-sight manner, and the relatively low bandwidth required for
transmitting sensor telemetry data, systems deployed for law
enforcement, public safety and homeland security in the United States
have primarily been based on acoustic techniques.

Acoustic-only based systems typically generate their alerts a few
seconds slower than optical sensing systems because they rely on the
propagation of sound waves. Therefore, the sound reaching a sensor 1
mile from its origin will take almost 5 seconds. A few seconds to
accommodate pickup from distant sensors and to discern the number of
rounds fired, often an indicator of incident severity, are both
tolerable and a drastic improvement for typical police dispatching
scenarios when compared against the several minutes that elapse from
when an actual discharge occurs to the cumulative time of several
minutes that pass when a person decides to place a 9-1-1 call and that
information is captured, processed, and dispatched to patrol officers.

Because such systems have arrays of highly sensitive microphones that
are continuously active, there have been concerns over privacy with this
broad ability to record conversations without the knowledge of those
being recorded (this is "collateral eavesdropping", because capturing
conversations is only an inadvertent capability of the system's design,
and law enforcement agencies have stated that the recording happens only
after shots have been detected.)[2]
Optical

Optical or electro-optical systems detect either the physical phenomenon
of the muzzle flash of a bullet being fired or the heat caused by the
friction of the bullet as it moves through the air. Such systems require
a line of sight to the area where the weapon is being fired or the
projectile while it is in motion. Although a general line of sight to
the shot event is required, detections are sometimes available as the
infrared flash event bounces off surrounding structures. Just like
acoustic-based systems, electro-optical systems can generally be
degraded by specialized suppression devices that minimize their sound or
optical signatures.

Optical and electro-optical systems have seen success in military
environments where immediacy of response is critical and because they
generally do not need careful location registration as is generally the
case for more permanently installed "civil" crime fighting systems. Just
as acoustic systems require more than one microphone to locate gunshots,
most electro-optical systems require more than one sensor when covering
360 degrees. Acoustic and optical sensors can be co-located and their
data can be fused thereby enabling the gunshot location processing to
have a more exact discharge time that can be used to calculate the
distance of the discharge to the sensors with the greatest possible
precision. Optical systems are (essentially) not limited to the number
of individual shots being fired or the number of different shooters
shooting simultaneously, allowing optical-based sensing to easily
declare and locate shooters conducting ambushes that employ multiple
shooters, shooting from multiple locations during the same time period.

The combination of both approaches (acoustic and infrared) assists in
overcoming each system's own limitations while improving the overall
capability to eliminate false declarations of gunshots and/or ambiguous
declaration locations. Even when these combined systems are employed,
shots fired from far enough away will not be detected because the amount
of gunshot signal (both acoustic and Infrared) eventually fades into the
background signals. For acoustic systems that require the supersonic
shock wave for location determination, the bullet must still be
traveling at supersonic speed when it passes the sensor, and it must
pass the sensor within the lateral span of the shock wave. For infrared
sensing of the flash upon a weapon's discharge, the bullet path is not
determined. Combining these two approaches improves the capability under
various conditions anticipated in a combat scenario.

Both optical and acoustic sensors have been used from vehicles while on
the move in urban and rural environments. These sensors have been tested
on airborne and waterborne platforms as well.

Electro-optical detection systems currently tested (2011) can process
the incoming shot signatures at very fast speeds, providing an excellent
method not only to discriminate between weapon firings and other
non-gunshot events but also to identify categories, characteristics, and
sometimes specific weapon types automatically.
Discriminating gunfire

Many techniques can be used to discriminate gunfire (also referred to as
“classifying gunfire”) from similar noises such as cars backfiring or
fireworks. As discussed previously, the SPL and corresponding acoustic
propagation characteristics of high SPL impulsive sounds gave rise to
the ‘spatial filter’ technique patented and used by ShotSpotter in its
Gunshot Location System. This is just one of several methods used to
distinguish between gunfire and other impulsive sounds. Analysis of the
spectral content of the sound, its envelope, and other heuristics are
also commonly used methods to distinguish and correctly classify
impulsive sounds as gunfire.

Another method of classifying gunfire uses "temporal pattern
recognition," as referred by its developer, that employs artificial
neural networks that are trained and then listen for a sound signature
in acoustic events. Like other acoustic sensing systems, they are
fundamentally based on the physics of acoustics, but they analyze the
physical acoustic data using a neural network. Information in the
network is coded in terms of variation in the sequence of all-or-none
(spike) events, or temporal patterns, transmitted between artificial
"neurons". Identifying the nonlinear input/output properties of neurons
involved in forming memories for new patterns and developing
mathematical models of those nonlinear properties enable the
identification of specific types of sounds. These neural networks can
then be trained as "recognizers" of a target sound, like a gunshot, even
in the presence of high noise.

Regardless of the methods used to isolate gunfire from other impulsive
sounds or infrared sensing, standard triangulation methods can be used
to locate the source of the gunshot once it has been recognized as a
gunshot.

Optical discriminating had previously consisted of methods, among them
spatial, spectral, and creative temporal filters, to eliminate solar
glint as a false alarm. Earlier sensors could not operate at speeds fast
enough to allow for the incorporation of matched temporal filters that
now eliminate solar glint as a false alarm contributor.
Architectures

Different system architectures have different capabilities and are used
for specific applications. In general there are 2 architectures:
stand-alone systems with local microphone arrays, and distributed sensor
arrays (“wide-area acoustic surveillance”). The former are generally
used for immediate detection and alerting to a nearby shooter in the
vicinity of the system; such uses are typically used to help protect
soldiers, military vehicles and craft, and also to protect small
open-space areas (e.g., parking lot, park). The latter are used for
protecting large areas such as cities, municipalities, critical
infrastructure, transportation hubs, and military operating bases.

Most stand-alone systems have been designed for military use where the
goal is immediately alerting human targets so they may take evasive
and/or neutralization action. Such systems generally consist of a small
array of microphones separated by a precise small distance. Each
microphone hears the sounds of gunfire at minute differences in time,
allowing the system to calculate the range and bearing of the origin of
the gunfire relative to the system. Military systems generally rely on
both the muzzle blast and projectile shockwave “snap” sounds to validate
their classification of gunfire and to calculate the range to the origin.

Distributed sensor arrays have a distinct advantage over stand-alone
systems in that they can successfully classify gunfire with and without
hearing a projectile “snap” sound, even amid heavy background noise and
echoes. Such systems are the accepted norm[citation needed] for urban
public safety as they allow law enforcement agencies to hear gunfire
discharges across a broad urban landscape of many square miles. In
addition to urban cityscapes, the distributed-array approach is intended
for area protection applications, such as critical infrastructure,
transportation hubs, and campuses.

Using common data-networking methods, alerts of the discharges can be
conveyed to dispatch centers, commanders, and field-based personnel,
allowing them to make an immediate assessment of severity and initiate
appropriate and decisive force response. Some systems have the
capability of capturing and conveying audio clips of the discharges with
the alert information that provides additional invaluable information
regarding the situation and its severity. Similarly for the protection
of critical infrastructure, where the information is clearly and
unambiguously conveyed in real-time to regional crisis command and
control centers, enabling security personnel to cut through often
inaccurate and delayed reports so they may react immediately to thwart
attacks and minimize subsequent activity.
Applications

Gunshot location systems are used by public safety agencies as well as
military/defense agencies. They have been used primarily in dispatch
centers for rapid reaction to gunfire incidents. In military/defense,
they are variously known as counter-sniper systems, weapons detection
and location systems, or other similar terms. Uses include alerting
potential human targets to take evasive action, to direct force response
to neutralize threats, including automated weapon cuing.

In addition to using gunshot location systems to convey incident alerts,
they also can relay their alert data to video surveillance systems in
real-time, enabling them to automatically slew cameras to the scene of
an incident. Real-time incident location data makes the video
surveillance smart; once cameras have slewed to the scene, the
information can be viewed to assess the situation and further plan
necessary response; the combined audio and video information can be
tagged and stored for subsequent use as forensic evidence.

Infrared-based detection systems can detect not only ordnance blast
signatures but also large caliber weapons such as mortars, artillery,
Rocket-Propelled munitions, machine guns as well as small arms. These
systems can also detect bomb impact explosions, thereby locating the
impacts of indirect fire weapons like artillery and mortars. The
detector can be used as an automated shot correction sensor for close
arms support.
Public safety

In public safety and law enforcement, gunshot location systems are often
used in high-crime areas for rapid alerts and awareness into the
communications and dispatch center where the alerts are used to direct
first responders to the scene of the gunfire, thus increasing arrest
rates, improving officer safety, securing witnesses and evidence, and
enhancing investigations, as well as in the long run deterring gun
crimes, shootings and especially "celebratory gunfire" (the practice of
shooting weapons in the air for fun). Gunshot location systems based
upon wide-area acoustic surveillance coupled with persistent incident
data storage transcends dispatch-only uses because reporting of urban
gunfire (via calls to 9-1-1) can be as low as 25%,[3] which means that
law enforcement agencies and their crime analysts have incomplete data
regarding true activity levels and patterns. With a wide-area
acoustic-surveillance-based approach combined with a persistent
repository of gunfire activity (i.e., a database), agencies have closer
to 100% activity data that can be analyzed for patterns and trends to
drive directed patrols and intelligence-led policing.[citation needed]
Additional benefits include aiding investigators to find more forensic
evidence to solve crimes and provide to prosecutors to strengthen court
cases resulting in a higher conviction rate. With the accuracy of a
gunshot location system and the ability to geo-reference to a specific
street address, versus a dearth of information that typically is the
case when citizens report gunfire incidents to 9-1-1, agencies can also
infer shooters by comparing with known criminal locations, including
those on parole and probation; investigators can also at times infer
intended victims and hence predict and prevent reprisals.

Gunshot location systems have been used domestically in urban areas
since the mid-1990s by a growing list of cities and municipalities that
are embracing gunshot location systems as a mission-essential tool in
their arsenal for fighting violent crime. Federal and homeland security
agencies too have embraced gunshot location systems and their benefits;
notably the FBI successfully used a ShotSpotter gunshot location system
during the 2003–2004 Ohio highway sniper attacks, in conjunction with
the Franklin County Sheriff.

The technology was tested in Redwood Village, a neighborhood of Redwood
City, CA, in April 1996. Through 2007, the manufacturer touted the
device as having benefits, but local officials were split as to its
effectiveness. It is effective in reducing random gunfire. Surveys
conducted for the DOJ showed it was most effective as a "perception" of
action.

A ShotSpotter system installed in Washington, DC, has been successfully
relied upon to locate gunfire in the area of coverage. The Washington,
DC Police Department reported in 2008 that it had helped locate 62
victims of violent crime and aided in 9 arrests. In addition to
assaults, the system detected a large amount of "random" gunfire, all
totaling 50 gunshots a week in 2007. Based on the system's success, the
police department decided to expand the program to cover nearly a
quarter of the city.[4]

As of 2016, detection systems were deployed to a number of cities,
including Bellwood, Illinois; Birmingham, Alabama; Boston; Cambridge,
Massachusetts; Chicago; Hartford[5]; Kansas City; Los Angeles;
Milwaukee; Minneapolis; New Bedford, Massachusetts; Oakland; Omaha,
Nebraska; San Francisco; Springfield, Massachusetts;[6] Washington,
D.C.; Wilmington, North Carolina;[7] New York City;[8] and some in the
United Kingdom and Brazil.[citation needed] Integration with cameras
that point in the direction of gunfire when detected is also
implemented.[6] Utility sites in USA use 110 systems in 2014.[9] San
Antonio, Texas discontinued its $500,000 ShotSpotter service, after
finding it had only resulted in four arrests.[10][11]

In August 2017, the United States Secret Service began testing the use
of ShotSpotter technology to protect the White House and the United
States Naval Observatory.[10][12]
Military and defense
See also: Artillery sound ranging

Determination of the origin of gunfire by sound was conceived before
World War I where it was first used operationally. Early sound-based
systems were used primarily for large weapons. Weapons detection and
location systems and counter-sniper systems have been deployed by the US
Department of Defense as well as by the militaries of other countries.[13]

Acoustic threat-detection systems include the Unattended Transient
Acoustic MASINT Sensor (UTAMS), Serenity Payload and FireFly, which were
developed by the Army Research Laboratory.[14]
Wildlife poaching

In South Africa's Kruger National Park, gunfire locators are being used
to prevent rhino poaching.[15][16]
Open source hardware initiatives

In the United States, gunfire locator projects have been developed using
cost effective open source hardware. The Soter (SO+ER) project[17] was
created for research partners, advocacy, crime watch, and civil liberty
groups to explore the positive impact of responsible use open source,
internet of things (IoT), and cloud technology can have in creating
safer spaces. The project's vision is to empower schools, communities,
hospitals, and other public places to build and manage their own
decentralized gunfire detection and rapid response networks available to
first responders. The current hardware and software is available online.
See also

Boomerang (countermeasure) – gunfire locator by BBN and DARPA
Counter-sniper tactics
Counter-insurgency

Notes

US application/patent 8134889, Showen, Robert L. (Los Altos, CA, US)
Calhoun, Robert B. (Oberlin, OH, US) Dunham, Jason W. (San Francisco,
CA, US), "Systems and methods for augmenting gunshot location using echo
processing features", published 2012-03-13, issued 2012-03-13
ShotSpotter used to record conversations (KBCW CW San Francisco news
report, posted to YouTube on May 23, 2014)
Schlossberg, Tatiana. "New York Police Begin Using ShotSpotter System to
Detect Gunshots". New York Times. Retrieved 22 May 2017.
Klein, Allison (2008-07-05). "District Adding Gunfire Sensors". The
Washington Post. Washington Post. Retrieved 2010-02-10.
"Gunshot Detection System Will Soon Cover All Of Hartford", Hartford
Courant, March 28, 2016
Handy, Delores, "Surveillance Technology Helps Boston Police Find
Location Of Gunfire", WBUR-FM, December 23, 2011.
Freskos, Brian, "Police chief details gunfire location system",
starnewsonline..com, February 21, 2012.
Schlossberg, Tatiana, "New York Police Begin Using ShotSpotter System to
Detect Gunshots", New York Times, March 16, 2015.
Tomkins, Richard. "Raytheon's gunshot detection system being deployed by
utility companies" United Press International, 17 June 2014. Accessed:
19 June 2014. Archived on 17 June 2014.
Farivar, Cyrus (August 26, 2017). "Secret Service conducts live test of
ShotSpotter system at White House". Ars Technica.
Davila, Vianna (August 17, 2017) [August 16, 2017]. "San Antonio police
cut pricey gunshot detection system". San Antonio Express-News. "In the
15 months it’s been in operation, officers have made only four arrests
and confiscated seven weapons that can be attributed to ShotSpotter
technology, Police Chief William McManus said."
United States Secret Service (August 25, 2017). "GPA 30 17 Gunshot
Detection System" (PDF). DocumentCloud. Retrieved August 26, 2017.
"Anti-Sniper/Sniper Detection/Gunfire Detection Systems at a Glance".
DefenseReview.com (DR): An online tactical technology and military
defense technology magazine with particular focus on the latest and
greatest tactical firearms news (tactical gun news), tactical gear news
and tactical shooting news. Retrieved 2018-05-31.
History of the U.S. Army Research Laboratory. Government Printing
Office. p. 73. ISBN 978-0-16-094231-0.
"High-Tech Gunfire Locator May Nab Rhino Poachers in South Africa".
Scientific American. Retrieved 2018-05-31.
South Africa tries gunfire location system to catch rhino poachers

Soter (SO+ER) Project - Free, Open Source Hardware, Real Time
Implementation of a Gunshot Detection System on GitHub

External links

Microflown AVISA
Safety Dynamics, Inc.
ShotSpotter, Inc. also known as SST, Inc. per Christopher Mims,
"Creating a ‘Fire Alarm’ for Terror Attacks", Wall Street Journal,
November 23, 2015.
Location of Acoustic Sources Using Seismological Techniques and
Software, USGS Open-File Report 93-221
Earthquake Technology Fights Crime, USGS Fact Sheet-096-96
Peleng360
Raytheon BBN Technologies
Barrie, Allison (2 March 2017). "Incredible tech detects gunfire
across America". Fox News.

Categories:

Weapon operationWeapons countermeasuresSensorsCounter-sniper
tacticsSecurity technology

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Learn Why 100+ Cities Trust ShotSpotter
Eddie Johnson
Since the city first adopted the ShotSpotter program in 2014, the
homicide rate has plummeted by 35%. Gunshot incidents as an activity has
been reduced by about 50% in the same period of time. MAYOR FRANCIS
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RTN arrow up 198.87 (+0.26)




Overview and History of the Acoustical Evidence in the Kennedy
Assassination Case

by D.B. Thomas

Part 1 Part 2 Part 3
INTRODUCTION

In 1979 the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) reported
that President Kennedy’s death was probably the result of a conspiracy.
The primary basis for that conclusion was acoustical evidence of a
gunshot from the Grassy Knoll. Not only has this evidence withstood
serious challenge, it has now been amply corroborated. Nonetheless, it
is evident from commentary on the web, television, and even in
scientific journals, that the acoustics and its corroborative evidence
are widely misunderstood. This essay attempts to explain the technical
and non-technical aspects of the evidence and in that light to discuss
the issues and controversies that have arisen since the original HSCA
study. Most importantly, coupling the audio evidence with the video
evidence provides us with a coherent reconstruction of the murder.
THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE
Gray Audograph Disc Recorder like the one used by DPD to record channel
two radio traffic
Gray Audograph Disc Recorder like the one used by DPD to record channel
two radio traffic.

On the day that President Kennedy was assassinated, the Dallas Police
Department (DPD) was communicating over two radio frequencies, both of
which were recorded. The primary channel, designated by them as channel
one (Ch-1), was used for routine transmissions and was recorded by a
Dictaphone belt recorder. An auxiliary channel, designated by them as
channel two (Ch-2), was used for special events, in this case, for the
police escort of the President’s motorcade. This channel was connected
to a Gray Audograph disc recorder. Both machines were needle-in-groove
type recorders in that each used a sharp stylus which cut an acoustical
groove into a soft vinyl surface to make the recordings. The respective
machines could then be switched to play back mode using the same stylus.
During the Warren Commission era, the recordings were subjected to
multiple playbacks for the making of transcripts and copies. Because
they were not designed for multiple playbacks, the recordings suffered
significant attrition at that time. Although both recordings still exist
in the possession of our National Archives, neither can be safely played
back today. However, in 1963, the officer in charge of the DPD
communications department, James C. Bowles, made high quality
electromagnetic tape copies of both recordings. Because of the poor
condition of the originals, the Bowles tapes are considered to be the
“best” record of the evidence on the recordings. During the subsequent
HSCA investigation, new playback copies were made by the acoustical
experts who analyzed the recordings, and in 1982, the FBI also made
playback copies of the original disc and dictabelt. But because the disc
and dictabelt were already aged and use-worn by that time, these copies
contain artifacts and do not have the fidelity of the Bowles tapes.
Model AT2C Dictaphone Belt Recorder like the one used by DPD to record
channel one radio traffic
Model AT2C Dictaphone Belt Recorder like the one used by DPD to record
channel one radio traffic.

The Dictaphone machine used by the Dallas Police was a piggyback unit.
When one belt became full, the machine would automatically begin to
record on the second unit. Because a belt can only contain about 15 min
of continuous recording a technician was constantly on hand to replace
belts as they became full. To extend the time between belt changes, the
machine was outfitted with a sound actuation switch which would stop the
recorder during dead air (after about 4 sec), and automatically resume
recording when a transmission was received. The Audograph disc resembled
a more traditional phonograph record, except that this recording machine
had a stylus on a fixed arm. The turntable is mounted on an axis which
rides in a slot such that the axis is driven perpendicular to the stylus
arm by a worm screw as the turntable rotates. Hence, unlike a
traditional phonograph record, the Audograph disc is recorded (and
played back) from the inside out, and playback is at linear track speed
(inches per minute) instead of revolutions per minute. This arrangement
prevents the problem common to floating stylus arms wherein the needle
can be “stuck” in one groove until corrected manually. Also, it
maximizes recorded message density in terms of signal per inch of
acoustical groove, compared to the less efficient phonograph. Audograph
Discs came in two sizes, 9 min and 30 min capacity. This machine was
also outfitted with a sound actuation switch.
AUTHENTICITY OF THE RECORDINGS
Photo of the actual dictabelt
Photo of the actual dictabelt - note the grease pen labeling.

Essentially all of the physical evidence in the Kennedy assassination
has been compromised, and this includes the DPD recordings. The DPD in
1963 was particularly negligent in its duty to mark evidence or maintain
proper chains of possession. Following the murder of the only suspect in
the case, while in the custody of the DPD, police officers purloined
most of the physical evidence for souvenirs. Much but not all of the
evidence was retrieved by the FBI for the Warren Commission’s
investigation. The recordings now in evidence were recovered from the
private home of a police officer by the HSCA in 1978. The Dictabelt held
by the National Archives has writing on its surface made with a white
grease pen indicating that it is belt No. 10 from the date of 22
November 63. The DPD technician with the responsibility for operating
the recorders in 1963 was able to identify the writing as hers. The
problem is that in the transcripts made by the FBI during the Warren
Commission era, the corresponding belt is identified as belt No. 5. The
FBI may have used its own numbering system in making the transcripts and
ignored the labels on the recordings. But typically the FBI evidence
numbers begin with a letter Q. The two different numbers suggests, but
does not prove, that there were at one time, two different belts, of
which one would have to be a copy.
Mary Ferrell
Mary Ferrell, who along with Gary Mack brought the DPD recordings to the
HSCA's attention.

It is known that multiple legitimate and illicit copies of the
recordings were made by the DPD, many for the souvenir hunters in the
department. It is also known that possession of the recordings shifted
between the DPD and the FBI without proper paperwork. It is thought that
all or most of these taped copies originate with the first Bowles tape
copy. The tape copy first provided to the HSCA by Mary Ferrell was
determined to be a multiple generation copy. It is also known that
Bowles rented a Dictaphone machine to playback the Dictabelt for the
taped copy of the Ch-1 transmissions, as well as for the preparation of
transcripts. Copies are often detectable because the recording process
introduces a hum from the recording machine’s motor. Indeed, overlapping
hums are evident on Dictabelt No. 10 (a background hum of 120 Hz
resulting from two 60 Hz hums out of phase). James Barger, the lead
scientist with the HSCA study has suggested that this secondary hum may
indicate that it is a copy, rather than the original. Obviously, to make
a copy of the belt one would require two instruments, one to playback
the original belt and one to create the copy. Alternatively, Linsker et
al. (2006) point out that the second hum only proves that there were two
instruments on line when the recording was made and it isn’t known for
certain what the second instrument was. Hence, the second hum does not
prove that the belt in the archives is a copy, although it is consistent
with that suspicion.

In 2004 it was reported that the National Archives had arranged with
Lawrence Livermore Laboratory to make a virtual playback copy of the DPD
Dictabelt using Laser technology. This technology has been successfully
applied to produce playbacks of the acoustical grooves in the old Edison
cylinder recordings which were in use before the invention of the
phonograph machine. This was necessary because the original belt has
become shrunken and brittle with cracks in the margins. Of course a true
copy will also include any artifacts inflicted on the belt over the
years, hence, for historical as well as acoustical studies, the best
recording will remain the Bowles tapes which were made with high
fidelity equipment when the belt was still in relatively new condition.
The advantage of the Laser copy is that it will be an authentic copy of
the evidence recording in the sense that it will be an untampered copy,
which is not necessarily the case with the recordings available on
E-Bay. However, as of this writing, the dictabelt is still in the
archives and any plans for a laser copy are on indefinite hold.
CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE RECORDING

The broadcast transmissions from the Presidential motorcade are recorded
on the Audograph disc of Ch-2. Prior to the assassination most of the
broadcasts originated from the Chief of Police Jesse Curry who was in
the lead car of the motorcade. Curry would state the location of the
motorcade as it wound through the streets of downtown Dallas. The first
broadcast indicating that the shooting had happened was a shouted order
by Curry telling the escort to proceed directly to Parkland Hospital. A
transcript of these broadcasts over Ch-2 during the relevant time
interval is provided here.

Table 1.- Transcript of DPD Ch-2 at approximately 12:30 p.m. 22 Nov. 1963

_______________________________________________________________________
Caller & Call Number Broadcast

_______________________________________________________________________
Lawrence [125] I'm at the Trade Mart now. I'll head back out that way.
Fisher [4]: Naw, that's all right, I'll check it.
Lawrence [125]: 10-4.
Curry [1]: [garbled] the Triple Underpass.*
Dispatcher: 10-4, 1 - 15 Car 2.
Dispatcher: 12:30 - KKB364.
Lawrence [125]: 125 to 250.
Dispatcher: 15 Car 2.
Curry [1]: . . . to the hospital! We're going to the hospital officers!
Go to the hospital! We're on our way to Parkland Hospital! Have them
stand by!

*The first word in this transmission is not clear. An early transcript
made by the DPD interprets the first word as "approaching." Listen
to Audio Recording

Photograph of clock showing 12:30, the time of the gunfire in Dealey Plaza
Photograph of clock showing 12:30, the time of the gunfire in Dealey Plaza.

A significant aspect of these recordings is that as a part of radio
protocol the radio dispatcher would append a time notation to his
broadcasts. This was especially significant because recorded time is not
actual time because of the sound actuation feature. It was also a part
of radio protocol that the dispatcher was responsible for broadcasting
the station’s call numbers at regular intervals. Because of adherence to
the protocol we know that the assassination occurred very close to 12:30
local time, because the dispatcher made his 12:30 station identification
just moments before Curry made his broadcast ordering the escort to go
to Parkland Hospital.

Over on Ch-1, the primary police channel, a most unusual but fortuitous
event occurred. For approximately 5-1/2 minutes the frequency is
dominated by the sound of a motorcycle motor. Somewhere in Dallas the
microphone on a patrolman’s radio had become stuck in the on position.
Because the dispatchers on this channel (there were two) were also
making time notations, we know that this motorcycle segment begins at
approximately 12:28 and runs until approximately 12:34 local time. It
thus overlaps the time of the assassination. The Ch-1 dispatchers were
on opposite sides of a large radio console which provided them with the
means of maintaining radio contact with the hundreds of patrol units
simultaneously. Each dispatcher had his own digital clock for the
purpose of making the time notations. The Ch-2 dispatcher had a separate
console and his own clock. According to JC Bowles, who provides a
detailed account of the communications department operation, these
clocks were regularly synchronized with one another and with a master
analog wall clock. The wall clock was synchronized to official time once
a month. All of these clocks should have been within one minute of one
another, but may have been as much as two minutes apart.

Because it happened during the assassination, at one time it was
suspected that one of the motorcycle police officers might have
deliberately held his microphone open in order to jam police
communications. Ostensibly this would have facilitated the escape of the
perpetrators by interfering with a coordinated police response mediated
by radio communication. It is now accepted that the motorcycle segment
was accidental. Firstly, the open motorcycle segment is only one of
several that day, and not just at the time of the shooting. The
microphone relay button worked by making a contact which when depressed
closed the circuit so that the radio is in transmit mode. The switch had
a spring which held it in the off position when not depressed. If the
spring broke or came loose, the relay became free to slide between the
contact and non-contact position. Hence, when the motorcycle was in
motion the relay would slide making intermittent contact. The motorcycle
broadcasts happened at least four times in the hour leading up to and
following the assassination. Secondly, because the motorcycle segment
ended only three minutes after the shooting there was little
interference with any response the police might have made because in the
immediate aftermath there was mostly confusion anyway. Thirdly, anyone
wanting to jam communications to interfere with police action in
response to the assassination would have jammed Ch-2, the motorcade
channel, not Ch-1.

Based on the Ch-2 dispatcher’s time notation, the assassination occurred
at approx. 12:30. At 12:33 in response to the motorcycle noise on Ch-1,
the Ch-2 dispatcher made a crucial broadcast saying,

"There’s a motorcycle officer up on Stemmons with his mike stuck open on
channel one. Could you find someone to tell him to shut it off!"
Listen to Audio Recording

This raised the crucial question, what made the dispatcher so certain
that the motorcycle was on the Stemmons freeway? The most likely clue
was the fact that at 12:32 one can hear sirens in the background over
the motorcycle motor. Because the one emergency at the time was the
assassination, and because the motorcade was at that moment on the way
to Parkland hospital, and because the fastest road from Dealey Plaza,
the scene of the shooting and Parkland hospital was the Stemmons
freeway, the dispatcher had made the inference that the open microphone
must be on Stemmons. If this inference is correct, given that there were
18 motorcycles assigned to escort the President’s motorcade, then there
was a possibility, if not likelihood, that the unit with the open
microphone might have been one assigned to the motorcade. That being the
case then there was also the possibility that the open microphone could
have been in Dealey Plaza with the motorcade when the shooting occurred.
And that being so, then the gunshots could have been captured over the
open microphone and might be detectable on the Ch-1 recording, somewhere
in the background of the motorcycle noise.
ACOUSTICAL ANALYSIS OF THE DPD RECORDING
National Guardsmen and student protesters at Kent State in 1970
National Guardsmen and student protesters at Kent State in 1970.
Acoustic analysis proved that three Guardsmen fired the first shots, and
identified them by location.

Mary Ferrell and Gary Mack were among the first to realize the
significance of the motorcycle sequence and brought this to the
attention of the HSCA. Investigators for the HSCA recovered dictabelt
No. 10 and contacted the Acoustical Society of America for advice on an
analysis of the recording. The ASA provided a short list of three
laboratories with the required expertise, at the top of which was the
Cambridge MA firm of Bolt, Baranek & Newman (now BBN Technologies). This
was the laboratory which had analyzed the Watergate tapes. More
importantly, this was the lab which had analyzed the Kent State shooting
tapes, the first forensic application of acoustics in a criminal case.
The acoustical experts at BBN were able to show that not only had the
National Guard soldiers fired on the students, contrary to their
subsequent claims that they had only returned fire, but were able to
pinpoint the three individual soldiers who had fired the first shots.
All three, identified in photographs by the FBI, admitted in
interrogation that they had discharged their weapons.
Vehicles equipped with Boomerang anti-sniper echo location system
Vehicles equipped with Boomerang anti-sniper echo location system.

These same scientists were now asked to bring the same technology to
bear on the DPD dictabelt recording. The principle involved is echo
location; the same method by which a submarine is able to navigate
without windows, and bats are able fly in caves. In fact the same
principles were used by the same BBN scientists to develop the Boomerang
technology now deployed by our soldiers in Iraq to instantly locate
sniper positions.

The first step in the analysis was to determine if the gunshots are even
on the dictabelt. This was not as simple as it sounds (no pun intended).
A gunshot makes a sound classified as a white noise, which is to say
that it does not have a characteristic frequency as do most of the
ambient sounds in our environment. Sound is a disturbance in the air.
The gun disturbs the air because the bullet in passing from the chamber
to the muzzle causes the column of air in the barrel to collide
violently with the air in front of the muzzle. Hence it is called a
muzzle blast. Among the characteristics of a muzzle blast are that it is
very loud and very brief. Only noises like rock concerts and jet engines
are as loud, but those noises are not brief in duration. The problem is
that loudness is a function of both the energy that goes into disturbing
the air, its intrinsic loudness, but also the distance between the
source and the listener. If one is a mile away from the gun, then the
muzzle blast will not be very loud. Conversely, a clap of the hands next
to the ear will seem very loud to the listener. The problem then is, if
one finds a loud, brief noise on a recording, how does one know that the
sound is a gunshot as opposed to some other sudden impulsive white noise
with a source close to the microphone. The answer lies in the fact that
an intrinsically loud noise made in an urban environment, such as
downtown Dallas, will reverberate off of the buildings. Such echoes will
be audible at considerable distances. By processing the motorcycle
segment through an oscillograph, an instrument which produces a visible
representation of the sound waves, the acoustical experts searched for
high amplitude sound impulses that were in clusters that would represent
the muzzle blast and its succeeding echoes.
A portion of the oscillograph showing one of the impulse patterns
A portion of the oscillograph showing one of the impulse patterns, in
this case the one identified as the grassy knoll shot. The horizontal
dotted lines show the cut-off level, which spikes must exceed in order
to be counted as part of an impulse sequence.

There are many other technical details that the acoustical experts
applied in this search, which can be found in their report to the HSCA.
Most of these are not at issue so there is no need to repeat them here.
Suffice it to say that in their oscilloscope screening of the 5-1/2
minutes of motorcycle recording, they located a sequence of sounds which
on acoustical criteria could be the assassination gunfire. The sequence
was ten seconds long, occurred almost exactly two minutes into the
motorcycle segment (and thus almost exactly at 12:30) and contained five
candidate impulse patterns. There is some confusion on this point
because a sixth pattern was also suspicious. It was an attenuated
pattern which was considered only because it was in close proximity to
the others, a sort of guilt by association. It was assumed that the
assassination gunfire were shots from a rifle. The presence of the
attenuated pattern might indicate a pistol shot.

Because white noises are commonplace in radio transmissions, there are
many potential explanations for the sound patterns on the dictabelt.
They might have been nothing more than bursts of static from overhead
wires, or shorts in the motorcycle’s electrical system. There might have
been a lightning storm in the distance; it did rain in Dallas that
morning. Anything that would produce brief impulsive noises in a cluster
on a radio broadcast might look the same as a gunshot echo pattern. The
laboratory study was a preliminary screen meant to determine whether or
not such suspect sounds were even present on the recording. What was
significant about the suspect sound patterns, was that they were grouped
into a sequence as expected from the circumstances of the shooting and
that they were deposited on the recording at or very near to the time of
the shooting. Nonetheless, the definitive test would be to compare these
suspect sounds with recordings of real rifle shots in Dealey Plaza. The
suspect patterns on the DPD tape had the acoustical characteristics of
gunshots in the generic sense. Test shots would show exactly what an
echo pattern from Dealey Plaza would look like.
FIELD TESTS IN DEALEY PLAZA
Photo taken of microphones on Elm Street in Dealey Plaza during the
HSCA's acoustical testing
Photo taken of microphones on Elm Street in Dealey Plaza during the
HSCA's acoustical testing.
(view larger version)

In August 1978, with the help of the DPD, gunshots were fired and
recorded on microphones placed along the President’s motorcade route
through Dealey Plaza. When these test patterns were then compared to the
suspect sound patterns on the dictabelt, they were found to match. That
is, all five of the suspect sound patterns identified on acoustical
criteria in the laboratory analysis were found to match to the echo
patterns of test shots fired in Dealey Plaza. The odds of this happening
if the sounds were not the assassination gunfire were remote. It would
certainly be possible for a stray noise pattern to match closely to one
of the sounds on the recording, especially if it were from a white noise
source that tended to occur in clusters; but for all five to match was
very unlikely (the suspicious attenuated sound that preceded the others
failed to match to any of the test shots, even though the test shooting
included firing a pistol on the grassy knoll and firing of a rifle with
its muzzle withdrawn inside the book depository building).

Some details are provided here. Comparisons were based on echo delay
time. Echo delay time is the time in milliseconds (thousandths of a
second) between the arrival of the muzzle blast at the microphone and
the succeeding echoes. Because there are five large buildings facing the
motorcade route in Dealey Plaza, it is expected that a gunshot sound
would reflect off the face of each building, but there would also be a
refractive echo from the corner of each building. Hence, around ten
large echoes would be expected, with the actual number depending on the
actual position of the microphone relative to the buildings. Because of
the dimensions of the plaza (about 500 ft across), and the speed of
sound (about 1100 ft/sec), all of the echoes should arrive within a
quarter to a half second (500 msec) following the muzzle blast. A match
was scored if an impulse in the suspect pattern was at or close to the
same echo delay time as an impulse in a test pattern. By close it is
meant that they were within 6 msec of one another. The slack was due to
the fact that the microphones were arrayed at 18 ft spacings. The degree
of match was determined by calculation of a coefficient using a simple
formula.
C = M² / N n

Where, N is the number of large impulses on the test pattern
n is the number of large impulses on the suspect pattern
and, M is the number that matched among them.

For example, if there were ten impulses in each pattern and nine of them
matched, the value of the coefficient would be 0.8, or if 8 impulses
matched then the value would be 0.6. Only comparisons which gave a score
of at least 0.5 would be statistically significant (no more than a 5%
likelihood to occur by chance), and this value served as the “detection
threshhold.” Four of the five suspect patterns matched to a test pattern
with a correlation coefficient of 0.8; one suspect pattern (the third)
matched to a test pattern with a score of 0.6.

But there was an even more convincing aspect to the results beyond the
matching of the sound patterns. It was the order in the matches.

Continue on to Part 2

© Mary Ferrell Foundation. All Rights Reserved
r***@gmail.com
2019-10-13 17:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BT George
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
You should check your work with Dale Myers. His work to synchronize the
assassination films would allow him to verify your timings as shown on the
Dangerous, Dale Myers was wrong about some of the times.
He faked some of them to try to discredit the acoustical evidence.
I always had long running disagreements with Bob Cutler about the times.
Post by BT George
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm
Rest Tony. Rest. You, Blakey, and GKnoll/Mike Rago are the only people
left on the planet that believe in the Dicatbelt "Evidence". But I am sure
that you 3--and you 3 alone--can save the universe from all the
wrong-headed rest of humanity.
That is simply not true. You don't even know any conspiracy researchers
so you are just making up crap. You don't even know who D.B. Thomas is.
And you intentionally left out W&A and BBN. W&A did further analysis and
found more details, and BBN perfected the science to create technology
that detects the origin of gun shots, used by our military and police.
Maybe you've never been in the real world so you never heard of these
things.
Gunfire locator
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Boomerang, a gunfire locator, being used by British forces in Afghanistan
A gunfire locator or gunshot detection system is a system that detects
and conveys the location of gunfire or other weapon fire using acoustic,
optical, or potentially other types of sensors, as well as a combination
of such sensors. These systems are used by law enforcement, security,
military and businesses to identify the source and, in some cases, the
direction of gunfire and/or the type of weapon fired. Most systems
An array of microphones or sensors either co-located or
geographically dispersed
A processing unit
A user-interface that displays gunfire alerts
Systems used in urban settings integrate a geographic information system
so the display includes a map and address location of each incident.
Contents
1 History
2 Gunfire characteristics
3 Design
3.1 Sensing method
3.1.1 Acoustic
3.1.2 Optical
3.2 Discriminating gunfire
3.3 Architectures
4 Applications
4.1 Public safety
4.2 Military and defense
4.3 Wildlife poaching
4.4 Open source hardware initiatives
5 See also
6 Notes
7 External links
History
Determination of the origin of gunfire by sound was conceived before
World War I where it was first used operationally (see: Artillery sound
ranging).
In the early 1990s, the areas of East Palo Alto and eastern Menlo Park,
California, were besieged with crime. During 1992 there were 42
homicides in East Palo Alto, which resulted in East Palo Alto becoming
the murder capital of the United States. The Menlo Park police
department was often called upon to investigate when residents reported
gunshots; however there was no way to determine their source from
scattered 911 calls.
In late 1992, John C. Lahr, a PhD seismologist at the nearby United
States Geological Survey, approached the Menlo Park police department to
ask if they would be interested in applying seismological techniques to
locate gunshots. Others had also approached the Menlo Park police
department suggesting ways to help the police by means of gunshot
location systems. The police chief arranged a meeting with local
inventors and entrepreneurs who had expressed an interest in the
problem. At that time there were no solutions to tracking gunshots, only
a desire to do so. One key attendee was Robert Showen, a Stanford
Research Institute employee and expert in acoustics.[citation needed]
Lahr decided to go ahead with his plans to demonstrate the feasibility
of locating the gunshots, relying on his background in the earthquake
location techniques and monitoring in Alaska. A network consisting of
one wired and four radio-telemetered microphones was established, with
his home in eastern Menlo Park becoming the command center. Lahr
modified the software typically used for locating earthquakes and
recorded the data at a higher sample rate than is used for regional
seismology. After gunshots were heard, Lahr would determine their
location while his wife monitored the police radio for independent
confirmation of their source.
Using this system, Lahr was able to demonstrate to the police and others
that this technique was highly effective, as the system was able to
locate gunshots occurring within the array to within a few tens of
meters. Although additional techniques from the seismic world were known
that could better automate the system and increase its reliability,
those improvements were outside the scope of this feasibility
study.[citation needed]
Gunfire characteristics
There are three primary attributes that characterize gunfire and hence
An optical flash that occurs when an explosive charge is ignited to
propel a projectile from the chamber of the weapon
A typical muzzle blast generates an impulse sound wave with a sound
pressure level (SPL) that ranges from 120 dB to 160 dB
A shock wave that occurs as a projectile moves through the air at
supersonic speed. Note, this does not apply to several types of
handguns, whose bullet projectiles do not exceed 1200 feet per second
(i.e. the speed of sound).
Optical flashes can be detected using optical and/or infrared sensing
techniques; however there must be a line of sight from the sensor to the
weapon, otherwise the flash will not be seen. Indirect flashes that
bounce off nearby structures such as walls, trees, and rocks assist in
exposing concealed or limited line-of-sight detections between the
weapon and the sensor. Because only optical flashes are detected, such
systems are typically capable of determining only the bearing of a
discharge relative to sensor unless multiple systems triangulate the
shot range. Multiple gunshots, fired from multiple locations at nearly
the same time, are easily discriminated as separate gunshots because the
sensors generally utilize a focal plane array consisting of many
sensitive pixels. Each pixel in the entire focal plane (e.g. 640×480
pixels) is constantly evaluated.
The projectile generally must travel within 50 to 100 meters of a sensor
in order for the sensor to hear the shockwave. The combination of a
muzzle blast and a shockwave provides additional information that can be
used along with the physics of acoustics and sound propagation to
determine the range of a discharge to the sensor, especially if the
round or type of projectile is known. Assault rifles are more commonly
used in battle scenarios where it is important for potential targets to
be immediately alerted to the position of enemy fire. A system that can
hear minute differences in the arrival time of the muzzle blast and also
hear a projectile's shockwave “snap” can calculate the origin of the
discharge. Multiple gunshots, fired from multiple locations at nearly
the same time, such as those found in an ambush, can provide ambiguous
signals resulting in location ambiguities.
Gunfire acoustics must be distinguished reliably from noises that can
sound similar, such as firework explosions and cars backfiring.
Urban areas typically exhibit diurnal noise patterns where background
noise is higher during the daytime and lower at night, where the noise
floor directly correlates to urban activity (e.g., automobile traffic,
airplane traffic, construction, and so on). During the day, when the
noise floor is higher, a typical handgun muzzle blast may propagate as
much as a mile. During the night, when the noise floor is lower, a
typical handgun muzzle blast may propagate as much as 2 miles.
Therefore, a co-located array of microphones or a distributed array of
acoustic sensors that hear a muzzle blast at different times can
contribute to calculating the location of the origin of the discharge
provided that each microphone/sensor can specify to within a millisecond
when it detected the impulse. Using this information, it is possible to
discriminate between gunfire and normal community noises by placing
acoustic sensors at wide distances so that only extremely loud sounds
(i.e., gunfire) can reach several sensors; this has been termed a
‘spatial filter’ in the first patent issued to ShotSpotter, Inc.[1]
Infrared detection systems have a similar advantage at night because the
sensor does not have to contend with any solar contributions to the
background signal. At night, the signature of the gunshot will not be
partially hidden within the background of solar infrared contributions.
Most flash suppressors are designed to minimize the visible signature of
the gunfire. Flash suppressors break up the expanding gases into focused
cones, thereby minimizing the blossoming effect of the exploding gasses.
These focused cones contain more of the signature in a smaller volume.
The added signal strength helps to increase detection range.
Because both the optical flash and muzzle blast are muffled by flash
suppressors and muzzle blast suppressors (also known as “silencers”),
the efficacy of gunshot detection systems may be reduced for suppressed
weapons. The FBI estimates that 1% or fewer of crimes that involve
gunfire are committed with suppressed guns.[citation needed]
Design
Sensing method
Gunshot location systems generally require one or more sensing
modalities to detect either the fact that a weapon has been fired or to
detect the projectile fired by the weapon. To date, only sound and
visual or infrared light have successfully been used as sensing
technologies. Both applications can be implemented to detect gunfire
under static and dynamic conditions. Most police related systems can be
permanently mounted, mapped and correlated as the sensors remain in
place for long periods. Military and SWAT actions, on the other hand,
operate in more dynamic environments requiring a fast setup time or a
capability to operate while the sensors are on move.
Acoustic
Further information: Acoustic source localization and Acoustic location
Acoustic systems "listen" for either the bullet bow shockwave (the sound
either of the projectile or bullet as it passes through the air), the
sound of the muzzle blast of the weapon when it fires the projectile, or
a combination of both.
Due to their ability to sense at great distances, to sense in a non
line-of-sight manner, and the relatively low bandwidth required for
transmitting sensor telemetry data, systems deployed for law
enforcement, public safety and homeland security in the United States
have primarily been based on acoustic techniques.
Acoustic-only based systems typically generate their alerts a few
seconds slower than optical sensing systems because they rely on the
propagation of sound waves. Therefore, the sound reaching a sensor 1
mile from its origin will take almost 5 seconds. A few seconds to
accommodate pickup from distant sensors and to discern the number of
rounds fired, often an indicator of incident severity, are both
tolerable and a drastic improvement for typical police dispatching
scenarios when compared against the several minutes that elapse from
when an actual discharge occurs to the cumulative time of several
minutes that pass when a person decides to place a 9-1-1 call and that
information is captured, processed, and dispatched to patrol officers.
Because such systems have arrays of highly sensitive microphones that
are continuously active, there have been concerns over privacy with this
broad ability to record conversations without the knowledge of those
being recorded (this is "collateral eavesdropping", because capturing
conversations is only an inadvertent capability of the system's design,
and law enforcement agencies have stated that the recording happens only
after shots have been detected.)[2]
Optical
Optical or electro-optical systems detect either the physical phenomenon
of the muzzle flash of a bullet being fired or the heat caused by the
friction of the bullet as it moves through the air. Such systems require
a line of sight to the area where the weapon is being fired or the
projectile while it is in motion. Although a general line of sight to
the shot event is required, detections are sometimes available as the
infrared flash event bounces off surrounding structures. Just like
acoustic-based systems, electro-optical systems can generally be
degraded by specialized suppression devices that minimize their sound or
optical signatures.
Optical and electro-optical systems have seen success in military
environments where immediacy of response is critical and because they
generally do not need careful location registration as is generally the
case for more permanently installed "civil" crime fighting systems. Just
as acoustic systems require more than one microphone to locate gunshots,
most electro-optical systems require more than one sensor when covering
360 degrees. Acoustic and optical sensors can be co-located and their
data can be fused thereby enabling the gunshot location processing to
have a more exact discharge time that can be used to calculate the
distance of the discharge to the sensors with the greatest possible
precision. Optical systems are (essentially) not limited to the number
of individual shots being fired or the number of different shooters
shooting simultaneously, allowing optical-based sensing to easily
declare and locate shooters conducting ambushes that employ multiple
shooters, shooting from multiple locations during the same time period.
The combination of both approaches (acoustic and infrared) assists in
overcoming each system's own limitations while improving the overall
capability to eliminate false declarations of gunshots and/or ambiguous
declaration locations. Even when these combined systems are employed,
shots fired from far enough away will not be detected because the amount
of gunshot signal (both acoustic and Infrared) eventually fades into the
background signals. For acoustic systems that require the supersonic
shock wave for location determination, the bullet must still be
traveling at supersonic speed when it passes the sensor, and it must
pass the sensor within the lateral span of the shock wave. For infrared
sensing of the flash upon a weapon's discharge, the bullet path is not
determined. Combining these two approaches improves the capability under
various conditions anticipated in a combat scenario.
Both optical and acoustic sensors have been used from vehicles while on
the move in urban and rural environments. These sensors have been tested
on airborne and waterborne platforms as well.
Electro-optical detection systems currently tested (2011) can process
the incoming shot signatures at very fast speeds, providing an excellent
method not only to discriminate between weapon firings and other
non-gunshot events but also to identify categories, characteristics, and
sometimes specific weapon types automatically.
Discriminating gunfire
Many techniques can be used to discriminate gunfire (also referred to as
“classifying gunfire”) from similar noises such as cars backfiring or
fireworks. As discussed previously, the SPL and corresponding acoustic
propagation characteristics of high SPL impulsive sounds gave rise to
the ‘spatial filter’ technique patented and used by ShotSpotter in its
Gunshot Location System. This is just one of several methods used to
distinguish between gunfire and other impulsive sounds. Analysis of the
spectral content of the sound, its envelope, and other heuristics are
also commonly used methods to distinguish and correctly classify
impulsive sounds as gunfire.
Another method of classifying gunfire uses "temporal pattern
recognition," as referred by its developer, that employs artificial
neural networks that are trained and then listen for a sound signature
in acoustic events. Like other acoustic sensing systems, they are
fundamentally based on the physics of acoustics, but they analyze the
physical acoustic data using a neural network. Information in the
network is coded in terms of variation in the sequence of all-or-none
(spike) events, or temporal patterns, transmitted between artificial
"neurons". Identifying the nonlinear input/output properties of neurons
involved in forming memories for new patterns and developing
mathematical models of those nonlinear properties enable the
identification of specific types of sounds. These neural networks can
then be trained as "recognizers" of a target sound, like a gunshot, even
in the presence of high noise.
Regardless of the methods used to isolate gunfire from other impulsive
sounds or infrared sensing, standard triangulation methods can be used
to locate the source of the gunshot once it has been recognized as a
gunshot.
Optical discriminating had previously consisted of methods, among them
spatial, spectral, and creative temporal filters, to eliminate solar
glint as a false alarm. Earlier sensors could not operate at speeds fast
enough to allow for the incorporation of matched temporal filters that
now eliminate solar glint as a false alarm contributor.
Architectures
Different system architectures have different capabilities and are used
stand-alone systems with local microphone arrays, and distributed sensor
arrays (“wide-area acoustic surveillance”). The former are generally
used for immediate detection and alerting to a nearby shooter in the
vicinity of the system; such uses are typically used to help protect
soldiers, military vehicles and craft, and also to protect small
open-space areas (e.g., parking lot, park). The latter are used for
protecting large areas such as cities, municipalities, critical
infrastructure, transportation hubs, and military operating bases.
Most stand-alone systems have been designed for military use where the
goal is immediately alerting human targets so they may take evasive
and/or neutralization action. Such systems generally consist of a small
array of microphones separated by a precise small distance. Each
microphone hears the sounds of gunfire at minute differences in time,
allowing the system to calculate the range and bearing of the origin of
the gunfire relative to the system. Military systems generally rely on
both the muzzle blast and projectile shockwave “snap” sounds to validate
their classification of gunfire and to calculate the range to the origin.
Distributed sensor arrays have a distinct advantage over stand-alone
systems in that they can successfully classify gunfire with and without
hearing a projectile “snap” sound, even amid heavy background noise and
echoes. Such systems are the accepted norm[citation needed] for urban
public safety as they allow law enforcement agencies to hear gunfire
discharges across a broad urban landscape of many square miles. In
addition to urban cityscapes, the distributed-array approach is intended
for area protection applications, such as critical infrastructure,
transportation hubs, and campuses.
Using common data-networking methods, alerts of the discharges can be
conveyed to dispatch centers, commanders, and field-based personnel,
allowing them to make an immediate assessment of severity and initiate
appropriate and decisive force response. Some systems have the
capability of capturing and conveying audio clips of the discharges with
the alert information that provides additional invaluable information
regarding the situation and its severity. Similarly for the protection
of critical infrastructure, where the information is clearly and
unambiguously conveyed in real-time to regional crisis command and
control centers, enabling security personnel to cut through often
inaccurate and delayed reports so they may react immediately to thwart
attacks and minimize subsequent activity.
Applications
Gunshot location systems are used by public safety agencies as well as
military/defense agencies. They have been used primarily in dispatch
centers for rapid reaction to gunfire incidents. In military/defense,
they are variously known as counter-sniper systems, weapons detection
and location systems, or other similar terms. Uses include alerting
potential human targets to take evasive action, to direct force response
to neutralize threats, including automated weapon cuing.
In addition to using gunshot location systems to convey incident alerts,
they also can relay their alert data to video surveillance systems in
real-time, enabling them to automatically slew cameras to the scene of
an incident. Real-time incident location data makes the video
surveillance smart; once cameras have slewed to the scene, the
information can be viewed to assess the situation and further plan
necessary response; the combined audio and video information can be
tagged and stored for subsequent use as forensic evidence.
Infrared-based detection systems can detect not only ordnance blast
signatures but also large caliber weapons such as mortars, artillery,
Rocket-Propelled munitions, machine guns as well as small arms. These
systems can also detect bomb impact explosions, thereby locating the
impacts of indirect fire weapons like artillery and mortars. The
detector can be used as an automated shot correction sensor for close
arms support.
Public safety
In public safety and law enforcement, gunshot location systems are often
used in high-crime areas for rapid alerts and awareness into the
communications and dispatch center where the alerts are used to direct
first responders to the scene of the gunfire, thus increasing arrest
rates, improving officer safety, securing witnesses and evidence, and
enhancing investigations, as well as in the long run deterring gun
crimes, shootings and especially "celebratory gunfire" (the practice of
shooting weapons in the air for fun). Gunshot location systems based
upon wide-area acoustic surveillance coupled with persistent incident
data storage transcends dispatch-only uses because reporting of urban
gunfire (via calls to 9-1-1) can be as low as 25%,[3] which means that
law enforcement agencies and their crime analysts have incomplete data
regarding true activity levels and patterns. With a wide-area
acoustic-surveillance-based approach combined with a persistent
repository of gunfire activity (i.e., a database), agencies have closer
to 100% activity data that can be analyzed for patterns and trends to
drive directed patrols and intelligence-led policing.[citation needed]
Additional benefits include aiding investigators to find more forensic
evidence to solve crimes and provide to prosecutors to strengthen court
cases resulting in a higher conviction rate. With the accuracy of a
gunshot location system and the ability to geo-reference to a specific
street address, versus a dearth of information that typically is the
case when citizens report gunfire incidents to 9-1-1, agencies can also
infer shooters by comparing with known criminal locations, including
those on parole and probation; investigators can also at times infer
intended victims and hence predict and prevent reprisals.
Gunshot location systems have been used domestically in urban areas
since the mid-1990s by a growing list of cities and municipalities that
are embracing gunshot location systems as a mission-essential tool in
their arsenal for fighting violent crime. Federal and homeland security
agencies too have embraced gunshot location systems and their benefits;
notably the FBI successfully used a ShotSpotter gunshot location system
during the 2003–2004 Ohio highway sniper attacks, in conjunction with
the Franklin County Sheriff.
The technology was tested in Redwood Village, a neighborhood of Redwood
City, CA, in April 1996. Through 2007, the manufacturer touted the
device as having benefits, but local officials were split as to its
effectiveness. It is effective in reducing random gunfire. Surveys
conducted for the DOJ showed it was most effective as a "perception" of
action.
A ShotSpotter system installed in Washington, DC, has been successfully
relied upon to locate gunfire in the area of coverage. The Washington,
DC Police Department reported in 2008 that it had helped locate 62
victims of violent crime and aided in 9 arrests. In addition to
assaults, the system detected a large amount of "random" gunfire, all
totaling 50 gunshots a week in 2007. Based on the system's success, the
police department decided to expand the program to cover nearly a
quarter of the city.[4]
As of 2016, detection systems were deployed to a number of cities,
including Bellwood, Illinois; Birmingham, Alabama; Boston; Cambridge,
Massachusetts; Chicago; Hartford[5]; Kansas City; Los Angeles;
Milwaukee; Minneapolis; New Bedford, Massachusetts; Oakland; Omaha,
Nebraska; San Francisco; Springfield, Massachusetts;[6] Washington,
D.C.; Wilmington, North Carolina;[7] New York City;[8] and some in the
United Kingdom and Brazil.[citation needed] Integration with cameras
that point in the direction of gunfire when detected is also
implemented.[6] Utility sites in USA use 110 systems in 2014.[9] San
Antonio, Texas discontinued its $500,000 ShotSpotter service, after
finding it had only resulted in four arrests.[10][11]
In August 2017, the United States Secret Service began testing the use
of ShotSpotter technology to protect the White House and the United
States Naval Observatory.[10][12]
Military and defense
See also: Artillery sound ranging
Determination of the origin of gunfire by sound was conceived before
World War I where it was first used operationally. Early sound-based
systems were used primarily for large weapons. Weapons detection and
location systems and counter-sniper systems have been deployed by the US
Department of Defense as well as by the militaries of other countries.[13]
Acoustic threat-detection systems include the Unattended Transient
Acoustic MASINT Sensor (UTAMS), Serenity Payload and FireFly, which were
developed by the Army Research Laboratory.[14]
Wildlife poaching
In South Africa's Kruger National Park, gunfire locators are being used
to prevent rhino poaching.[15][16]
Open source hardware initiatives
In the United States, gunfire locator projects have been developed using
cost effective open source hardware. The Soter (SO+ER) project[17] was
created for research partners, advocacy, crime watch, and civil liberty
groups to explore the positive impact of responsible use open source,
internet of things (IoT), and cloud technology can have in creating
safer spaces. The project's vision is to empower schools, communities,
hospitals, and other public places to build and manage their own
decentralized gunfire detection and rapid response networks available to
first responders. The current hardware and software is available online.
See also
Boomerang (countermeasure) – gunfire locator by BBN and DARPA
Counter-sniper tactics
Counter-insurgency
Notes
US application/patent 8134889, Showen, Robert L. (Los Altos, CA, US)
Calhoun, Robert B. (Oberlin, OH, US) Dunham, Jason W. (San Francisco,
CA, US), "Systems and methods for augmenting gunshot location using echo
processing features", published 2012-03-13, issued 2012-03-13
ShotSpotter used to record conversations (KBCW CW San Francisco news
report, posted to YouTube on May 23, 2014)
Schlossberg, Tatiana. "New York Police Begin Using ShotSpotter System to
Detect Gunshots". New York Times. Retrieved 22 May 2017.
Klein, Allison (2008-07-05). "District Adding Gunfire Sensors". The
Washington Post. Washington Post. Retrieved 2010-02-10.
"Gunshot Detection System Will Soon Cover All Of Hartford", Hartford
Courant, March 28, 2016
Handy, Delores, "Surveillance Technology Helps Boston Police Find
Location Of Gunfire", WBUR-FM, December 23, 2011.
Freskos, Brian, "Police chief details gunfire location system",
starnewsonline..com, February 21, 2012.
Schlossberg, Tatiana, "New York Police Begin Using ShotSpotter System to
Detect Gunshots", New York Times, March 16, 2015.
Tomkins, Richard. "Raytheon's gunshot detection system being deployed by
19 June 2014. Archived on 17 June 2014.
Farivar, Cyrus (August 26, 2017). "Secret Service conducts live test of
ShotSpotter system at White House". Ars Technica.
Davila, Vianna (August 17, 2017) [August 16, 2017]. "San Antonio police
cut pricey gunshot detection system". San Antonio Express-News. "In the
15 months it’s been in operation, officers have made only four arrests
and confiscated seven weapons that can be attributed to ShotSpotter
technology, Police Chief William McManus said."
United States Secret Service (August 25, 2017). "GPA 30 17 Gunshot
Detection System" (PDF). DocumentCloud. Retrieved August 26, 2017.
"Anti-Sniper/Sniper Detection/Gunfire Detection Systems at a Glance".
DefenseReview.com (DR): An online tactical technology and military
defense technology magazine with particular focus on the latest and
greatest tactical firearms news (tactical gun news), tactical gear news
and tactical shooting news. Retrieved 2018-05-31.
History of the U.S. Army Research Laboratory. Government Printing
Office. p. 73. ISBN 978-0-16-094231-0.
"High-Tech Gunfire Locator May Nab Rhino Poachers in South Africa".
Scientific American. Retrieved 2018-05-31.
South Africa tries gunfire location system to catch rhino poachers
Soter (SO+ER) Project - Free, Open Source Hardware, Real Time
Implementation of a Gunshot Detection System on GitHub
External links
Microflown AVISA
Safety Dynamics, Inc.
ShotSpotter, Inc. also known as SST, Inc. per Christopher Mims,
"Creating a ‘Fire Alarm’ for Terror Attacks", Wall Street Journal,
November 23, 2015.
Location of Acoustic Sources Using Seismological Techniques and
Software, USGS Open-File Report 93-221
Earthquake Technology Fights Crime, USGS Fact Sheet-096-96
Peleng360
Raytheon BBN Technologies
Barrie, Allison (2 March 2017). "Incredible tech detects gunfire
across America". Fox News.
Weapon operationWeapons countermeasuresSensorsCounter-sniper
tacticsSecurity technology
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Learn Why 100+ Cities Trust ShotSpotter
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Since the city first adopted the ShotSpotter program in 2014, the
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With ShotSpotter’s immediacy and accuracy, response time to gunshots is
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ShotSpotter is an important forensic tool that is more reliable than
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DISTRICT ATTORNEY HILLAR MOOREEAST BATON ROUGE, LA | Customer since 2007
Eddie Johnson
Miami, FL
Eddie Johnson
Chicago, Illinois
John Cranley
Cincinnati, Ohio
New Haven, Connecticut
Scott Ruszowski
South Bend, Indiana
Jerry Dyer
Fresno, California
Allwyn Brown
Richmond, California
Hillar Moore
Baton Rouge, Lousianna
How ShotSpotter Works
SENSORS AND SOFTWARE
Acoustic sensors are strategically placed in a coverage area. When a gun
is fired, the sensors detect shots fired. Audio triangulation pinpoints
gunfire location and machine-learning algorithms analyze the sound.
Likely gunshots are transmitted to the Incident Review Center.
Acoustic Assessment
Acoustic experts at the Incident Review Center analyze incidents in
seconds and add relevant tactical intelligence such as “multiple
shooters” and “automatic weapons”. This may change how officers approach
the crime scene. Confirmed gunshots are published within seconds.
Alerts to Agencies
Notifications are sent to dispatch centers, patrol car MDTs and officer
smartphones. Total time from gunshot to alert is less than 60 seconds.
Alerts can integrate with and trigger other systems such as cameras to
pan, tilt, and zoom in the direction of a gunshot incident.
How ShotSpotter Works
News and Events Spotlight
Partnering with Healthcare to Improve Patient Outcomes
LEARN MORE
ShotSpotter’s Impact in Chicago on NBC Nightly News
LEARN MORE
Shootings down in Cincinnati nearly 50%
LEARN MORE
The Most Complete & Reliable Gunshot
Detection Solution Enables Better Policing
Detects, locates and alerts on gunfire in less than 60 seconds
Acoustic experts filter out false positives
Tactical intelligence provided for patrol officers
Detailed location data aids in evidence collection
Improved evidence collection feeds your NIBIN program
Near real-time reports support on-scene witness and suspect interviews
Forensic reports provide court-admissible evidence for prosecution
Simple, affordable subscription service — no IT integration required
IF YOU WANT TO PROTECT YOUR COMMUNITY FROM GUN
VIOLENCE, WHY WOULDN’T YOU USE SHOTSPOTTER?
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ShotSpotter City?
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ShotSpotter®, ShotSpotter Flex™, ShotSpotter SiteSecure™, ShotSpotter
SecureCampus®, ShotSpotter Missions™, and the ShotSpotter logo are
trademarks of ShotSpotter Inc. ShotSpotter technology is protected by
one or more issued U.S. and foreign patents, with other domestic and
foreign patents pending, as detailed at www.shotspotter.com/patents.
Privacy Policy
State-of-the-Art Shooter Detection
Boomerang pinpoints the shooter’s location of incoming small arms fire.
Boomerang uses passive acoustic detection and computer-based signal
processing to locate a shooter in less than a second.
Whether vehicle mounted or in a fixed position, Boomerang detects small
arms fire travelling toward it for bullets passing within approximately
30 meters of the mast-mounted compact array of microphones, even when
shooters are firing from maximum effective weapons ranges.
When vehicle mounted, Boomerang operates whether the vehicle is moving
or stationary. Non-ballistic events, such as road bumps, door slams,
wind noise, tactical radio transmissions, vehicle traffic, firecrackers
and urban activity do not cause false alarms. The system also does not
alert when shots are fired from the vehicle or the protected site.
Reliable Information in Under a Second
When a shot is detected, Boomerang immediately calls out; for example,
“shot. two o’clock. 400 meters.” The o’clock position also appears on
the dial while range and elevation appear on the LED display screen.
When networked with a simple Ethernet connection, this information can
be transmitted to an operations center or to a situation awareness platform.
Easy Integration
Boomerang is easily integrated with options such as the Boomerang
Situation Awareness System and third-party systems. Through its
intuitive system integration kit and simple Ethernet interface,
Boomerang can be used to slew camera devices, feed remote weapons
station equipment, or report shooter position to a Tactical Operations
Center.
Availability and Deployments
Boomerang is available to U.S. military and law enforcement agencies and
to municipalities as well as to other approved U.S. domestic and foreign
organizations. Government contractors may incorporate Boomerang into
their systems or platforms.
Protecting the military vehicles of U.S. and allied troops
Fixed site protection for FOBs (Forward Operation Bases) and
checkpoints in Afghanistan
Protecting critical infrastructure, such as power stations, in the U.S.
Boomerang Warrior X
Soldier wearable shooter detection.
Praise From Warfighters
“On behalf of [my unit] I would like to express my thanks . . . [This
is] the most dangerous terrain in this country. [Boomerang] will no
doubt save lives in the future. I thank you all for your support. Semper
Fidelis. – U.S. Marine NBC and Force Protection Officer
“[Boomerang] worked great for the Marines on post when they received
fire from multiple directions [and] when just a few rounds are fired.
[Without Boomerang] it is difficult to pinpoint where you’re getting
shot at from in an urban environment because of the echos from the
buildings and within the post.” – U.S. Marine Executive Officer
“[Boomerang] has been very useful to date depending upon the contact.
When we first arrived we had a sniper threat to the posts. The enemy
ramped up and came in larger numbers with heavier weapons and changed
our fight for the last 2 months.... He has since started to engage with
snipers [again] and we are glad to have the Boomerang in helping us
defend against this thr...
You still don't get it. Acoustic GS location systems like Boomerang and
Shotspotter are based on epicentric and/or stereo techniques. The BBN/WA
work used correlative matching, a completely different method. Your use of
Shotspotter or Boomerang as a validation of the BBN/WA analyses is not
only wrong, it betrays your inability to understand the principles behind
those analyses. Or maybe you just don't care, but have no ammunition left
in your corner to argue with.
c***@gmail.com
2019-10-10 23:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
My compliments on the work you put into this. Excellent.
Mark Tyler
2019-10-13 01:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Mark Tyler
I recently published an animation that recreates the motorcade travelling
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
Hopefully other researchers will find this visual aid useful in their
work.
If anybody spots any errors, or has suggestions for improvements, please
let me know.
My compliments on the work you put into this. Excellent.
Cheers! It was a lot of work, but it was worth the effort to properly
understand the sequence of events.
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