Discussion:
BOB JACKSON
(too old to reply)
BOZ
2020-07-27 01:30:06 UTC
Permalink
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.

(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
Anthony Marsh
2020-07-27 18:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
So you rely on witnessses and conclude that there was no shooter.
You're not helping your case.
Post by BOZ
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
Doctor W
2020-08-30 20:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.

It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.

BUT,

the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.


The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.





- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"

A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.

(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)

(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)

Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-08-31 03:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
Here's something I've never seen an argument against:

Shots at 223 and 313 - five seconds apart. And the sound of the bullet
hitting the head (and mistaken for an additional shot) would account for
the third shot sounding very close to the second. Many of the Secret
Service agents reported only hearing two shots, and some of them reported
hearing the bullet hit the head. That would explain nicely the three shots
(with the second and third bunched very closely, almost instantaneous
according to some witnesses) many witnesses reported. The sound of the
impact being mistaken for an additional shot would account for those
witness descriptions nicely.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-03 02:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Yoo hoo, Doctor W?

Looking forward to your response to the points I made below that doesn't
invoke the straw man logical fallacy.

You got one?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
Shots at 223 and 313 - five seconds apart. And the sound of the bullet
hitting the head (and mistaken for an additional shot) would account for
the third shot sounding very close to the second. Many of the Secret
Service agents reported only hearing two shots, and some of them reported
hearing the bullet hit the head. That would explain nicely the three shots
(with the second and third bunched very closely, almost instantaneous
according to some witnesses) many witnesses reported. The sound of the
impact being mistaken for an additional shot would account for those
witness descriptions nicely.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-04 00:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Yoo hoo, Doctor W?
Looking forward to your response to the points I made below that doesn't
invoke the straw man logical fallacy.
So you rhink all you have to do to win any argument is to shout:
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.
Never really answer any questions or debate anything.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
You got one?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
Shots at 223 and 313 - five seconds apart. And the sound of the bullet
hitting the head (and mistaken for an additional shot) would account for
the third shot sounding very close to the second. Many of the Secret
Service agents reported only hearing two shots, and some of them reported
hearing the bullet hit the head. That would explain nicely the three shots
(with the second and third bunched very closely, almost instantaneous
according to some witnesses) many witnesses reported. The sound of the
impact being mistaken for an additional shot would account for those
witness descriptions nicely.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-04 11:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Yoo hoo, Doctor W?
Looking forward to your response to the points I made below that doesn't
invoke the straw man logical fallacy.
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.
No, that's not what I said. That's an excellent example of the logical
fallacy of begging the question.

Do you have any other examples of you using logical fallacies to avoid
debate?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Never really answer any questions or debate anything.
Perhaps you missed my original response to Doctor W:
= QUOTE ==
Here's something I've never seen an argument against:

Shots at 223 and 313 - five seconds apart. And the sound of the bullet
hitting the head (and mistaken for an additional shot) would account for
the third shot sounding very close to the second. Many of the Secret
Service agents reported only hearing two shots, and some of them reported
hearing the bullet hit the head. That would explain nicely the three shots
(with the second and third bunched very closely, almost instantaneous
according to some witnesses) many witnesses reported. The sound of the
impact being mistaken for an additional shot would account for those
witness descriptions nicely. == UNQUOTE ==

It's not I who am avoiding anything. It's Doctor W, and you, since you
inserted your into this topic to post logical fallacies.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
You got one?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
Shots at 223 and 313 - five seconds apart. And the sound of the bullet
hitting the head (and mistaken for an additional shot) would account for
the third shot sounding very close to the second. Many of the Secret
Service agents reported only hearing two shots, and some of them reported
hearing the bullet hit the head. That would explain nicely the three shots
(with the second and third bunched very closely, almost instantaneous
according to some witnesses) many witnesses reported. The sound of the
impact being mistaken for an additional shot would account for those
witness descriptions nicely.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-04 20:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Yoo hoo, Doctor W?
Looking forward to your response to the points I made below that doesn't
invoke the straw man logical fallacy.
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.
No, that's not what I said. That's an excellent example of the logical
fallacy of begging the question.
Do you have any other examples of you using logical fallacies to avoid
debate?
No, silly.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Never really answer any questions or debate anything.
= QUOTE ==
Shots at 223 and 313 - five seconds apart. And the sound of the bullet
hitting the head (and mistaken for an additional shot) would account for
the third shot sounding very close to the second. Many of the Secret
Is that your new theory or did you steal it from someone?
ONLY w shots? No misses? What dented the chrome topping?
What hit the windshield?
What dented the back of the rearview mirror? Please diagram this for me.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Service agents reported only hearing two shots, and some of them reported
I doubt it.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
hearing the bullet hit the head. That would explain nicely the three shots
No one said that.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
(with the second and third bunched very closely, almost instantaneous
according to some witnesses) many witnesses reported. The sound of the
impact being mistaken for an additional shot would account for those
witness descriptions nicely. == UNQUOTE ==
What frames constitute very closely?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
It's not I who am avoiding anything. It's Doctor W, and you, since you
inserted your into this topic to post logical fallacies.
I am just curious to know what his theory is and what yours is.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
You got one?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
Shots at 223 and 313 - five seconds apart. And the sound of the bullet
hitting the head (and mistaken for an additional shot) would account for
the third shot sounding very close to the second. Many of the Secret
Service agents reported only hearing two shots, and some of them reported
hearing the bullet hit the head. That would explain nicely the three shots
(with the second and third bunched very closely, almost instantaneous
according to some witnesses) many witnesses reported. The sound of the
impact being mistaken for an additional shot would account for those
witness descriptions nicely.
Doctor W
2020-08-31 12:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view

A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy’s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet’s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine’schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .

.... BUT ....

. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .

.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy’s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured “magic bullet”
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .

. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1’ away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0’ away from the damage to the
front windshield’s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK’s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President’s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine’s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield’s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy’s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .

. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.

(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine’s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone’s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-01 04:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy’s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet’s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine’schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy’s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured “magic bullet”
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1’ away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0’ away from the damage to the
front windshield’s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK’s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President’s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine’s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield’s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy’s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine’s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone’s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-02 01:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy’s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet’s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine’schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy’s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured “magic bullet”
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1’ away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0’ away from the damage to the
front windshield’s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK’s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President’s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine’s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield’s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy’s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine’s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone’s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
BOZ
2020-09-02 14:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy’s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet’s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine’schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy’s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured “magic bullet”
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1’ away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0’ away from the damage to the
front windshield’s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK’s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President’s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine’s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield’s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy’s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine’s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone’s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-03 02:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy’s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet’s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine’schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy’s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured “magic bullet”
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1’ away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0’ away from the damage to the
front windshield’s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK’s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President’s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine’s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield’s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy’s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine’s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone’s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Mark
2020-09-03 19:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy’s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet’s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine’schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy’s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured “magic bullet”
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1’ away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0’ away from the damage to the
front windshield’s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK’s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President’s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine’s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield’s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy’s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine’s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone’s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-04 20:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.

Loading Image...

Loading Image...
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-05 01:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-06 00:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me. According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
John Corbett
2020-09-06 14:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me. According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
All the leaked autopsy photos are readily available on line. It's not as
if you are privy to something the rest of us haven't seen. Here is one of
those photos.

Loading Image...

As anyone can see, the left side of JFK's head, is completely intact.
there is no missing parietal bone. How do you explain this one?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
Tell us all about your training in radiology.
Post by Anthony Marsh
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
You can't quote anyone who said there is missing parietal bone on the left
side of JFK's head. You know it. I know it. Hank knows it. Everyone who
reads these posts knows it. You made it up and can't cite supporting
evidence because there is none.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-06 21:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me. According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
All the leaked autopsy photos are readily available on line. It's not as
That is not true. Can you upload the side view photo which has light
leakage causing a blue streak?

If many more photos are now online it is because I put them there, not
you.
Post by John Corbett
if you are privy to something the rest of us haven't seen. Here is one of
those photos.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bDhpepvkimo/TXyvecP3asI/AAAAAAAARY4/mjGt5xSRc5A/s1600/JFK%2BAutopsy%2BPhoto.jpg
As anyone can see, the left side of JFK's head, is completely intact.
Silly. You only see that the SCALP is closed up. You can't even see any
scull bone. I said SCULL BONE.

Are yoou blind?
Fox 8 shows a lot of missing bone on the left side of the head.
What is your game here? To deny everything?
Post by John Corbett
there is no missing parietal bone. How do you explain this one?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
Tell us all about your training in radiology.
I said nothing about radiology.
Tell us the highest grade you grduated from.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
You can't quote anyone who said there is missing parietal bone on the left
side of JFK's head. You know it. I know it. Hank knows it. Everyone who
https://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/ADemonstrableImpossibility/ADemonstrableImpossibility.htm




You and Hank know nothing.
Post by John Corbett
reads these posts knows it. You made it up and can't cite supporting
evidence because there is none.
John Corbett
2020-09-07 01:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me. According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
All the leaked autopsy photos are readily available on line. It's not as
That is not true. Can you upload the side view photo which has light
leakage causing a blue streak?
Why would I want to? What good is the blue streak?
Post by Anthony Marsh
If many more photos are now online it is because I put them there, not
you.
Do you take credit for the sunrise too?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
if you are privy to something the rest of us haven't seen. Here is one of
those photos.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bDhpepvkimo/TXyvecP3asI/AAAAAAAARY4/mjGt5xSRc5A/s1600/JFK%2BAutopsy%2BPhoto.jpg
As anyone can see, the left side of JFK's head, is completely intact.
Silly. You only see that the SCALP is closed up. You can't even see any
scull bone. I said SCULL BONE.
Is that anything like a skull bone? The scalp is completely intact. How
could that happen if the underlying bone had been blown away? The entire
skull was shattered by the impact of the bullet on the rear of the head,
but the pieces of skull on the left side of the skull remained in place
and attached to the scalp. That's why we don't see any wound on the left
side of the head.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Are yoou blind?
Just because I can't see the things you imagine, like an entry wound in
the forehead, doesn't make me blind.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Fox 8 shows a lot of missing bone on the left side of the head.
What is your game here? To deny everything?
Why don't you post Fox 8 and point to where you see missing bone on the
left side.

You don't have much credibility to begin with but when you argue things
that are so obviously and demonstrably false, you lose what little you
might have had.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
there is no missing parietal bone. How do you explain this one?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
Tell us all about your training in radiology.
I said nothing about radiology.
Tell us the highest grade you grduated from.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
You can't quote anyone who said there is missing parietal bone on the left
side of JFK's head. You know it. I know it. Hank knows it. Everyone who
https://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/ADemonstrableImpossibility/ADemonstrableImpossibility.htm
Why is it that when pressed to support a claim for which you have no
evidence you resort to filibuster by posting a long winded website that
doesn't remotely support the claim that you made. You probably figure
(correctly) that nobody is going to bother to read the whole thing looking
for the supporting documentation for your claim. You probably didn't
figure somebody would do a word search on the article. You figured wrong.
I did a search on "parietal". There are 18 occurrences of the word
parietal in the article. Most of them explicitly refer to the right
parietal bone. The ones that did so implicitly referred to the right
parietal with photos or diagrams showing the right side of the skull. Not
one of the references to parietal bone mentioned the left side of the
head. IOW, the article does not support your ridiculous claim.

The article was authored by a guy named John Hunt but a search for Hunt
regarding the JFK assassination brought up H.L. Hunt instead. I suspect he
is, like you, a layman pretending to have expertise which he does not
possess.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You and Hank know nothing.
We know enough not to believe your unsupported claims.
Mark
2020-09-06 21:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me. According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
No one is attacking you personally. I don't see a left side blowout in
the autopsy photo posted by John C.:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bDhpepvkimo/TXyvecP3asI/AAAAAAAARY4/mjGt5xSRc5A/s1600/JFK%2BAutopsy%2BPhoto.jpg

You're also forced to ignore the autopsy X-rays showing bullet fragments
in the right hemisphere of JFK's brain that had traveled from back to
front. No fragments were found in the left hemisphere that had traveled
from right to left.

Are you now saying this evidence -- the photograph and the X-ray -- were
faked or altered?

There are words to described what you are doing: Grasping at (dwindling)
straws. Mark
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-07 14:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.

Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-13 01:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-13 22:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look

Loading Image...

Dr. Lawrence Angel.

It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.

Loading Image...
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-14 13:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Hilarious. The damage is all on the right and top of the skull in the
drawing. The typewritten text doesn't seem to reference any damage to the
left side of the skull, can you quote that language that you allege is
referenced therein?

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-15 02:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Hilarious. The damage is all on the right and top of the skull in the
drawing. The typewritten text doesn't seem to reference any damage to the
left side of the skull, can you quote that language that you allege is
referenced therein?
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
John Corbett
2020-09-15 14:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
You made up both of those things and tried to use Angel's findings to
bluff your way through. Angel disputes what you care claiming at every
turn. When was the last time you read through the links you posted. You
probably read Angel's writings as carefully as you read the posts you
reply to on this forum which is to say you didn't read it carefully at
all. You probably just skimmed through it like you do hear and assumed his
writings support your position. They don't. They refute everything you
have claimed.

If Angel actually supported you positions you could've and would've quoted
him but nothing he wrote supports what you claim. You simply do what you
do here. You browse through his writings and pretend he wrote something
differently than what he actually wrote.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-16 02:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Harper fragment came from the
left side of the head.
I quoted Dr. Angel for you.
His diagram shows done missing on the left side of the head.
You can SEE it flying out of the left side of the head in Z-313.
Post by John Corbett
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
I did not say that he said it was an entrance wound. He recognized that
it was a bullet hole.
Post by John Corbett
You made up both of those things and tried to use Angel's findings to
bluff your way through. Angel disputes what you care claiming at every
turn. When was the last time you read through the links you posted. You
No, you are just making up crap. You never even read the HSCA volumes. I
have them.
Post by John Corbett
probably read Angel's writings as carefully as you read the posts you
reply to on this forum which is to say you didn't read it carefully at
all. You probably just skimmed through it like you do hear and assumed his
writings support your position. They don't. They refute everything you
have claimed.
If Angel actually supported you positions you could've and would've quoted
him but nothing he wrote supports what you claim. You simply do what you
I have quoted him sseveral times. You refuse to read.
Post by John Corbett
do here. You browse through his writings and pretend he wrote something
differently than what he actually wrote.
I upload GIFs or JPGs of what he wrote since I know that you do not have
the HSCA volumes.

Loading Image...




Here I marked he entrance and exit for you.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif


I made scans of the HSCA volume

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Loading Image...
John Corbett
2020-09-16 17:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Harper fragment came from the
left side of the head.
If I had a nickel for every time you've claimed a left side blowout, it
would be a nice supplement to my pension. Even your claim that the Harper
fragment is from the left side of the head is erroneous. Angel's diagram
indicated the fragment was primarily from the right side with just one
edge of it extending left of the midline. Angel described it as follows:

"The Harper fragment photos show it as a roughly trapezoidal piece, 7 X
5.5 cm in size, coming mainly from the upper middle third of the
RIGHT(emphasis mine) parietal bone.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I quoted Dr. Angel for you.
No, you twisted his words for us. I just quoted him above. You see when
you quote someone, you use THEIR own words, you don't substitute your spin
on their words.

Angel said the Harper fragment came mainly from the right parietal bone
extending ever so slightly to the left of the midline.
Post by Anthony Marsh
His diagram shows done missing on the left side of the head.
You can SEE it flying out of the left side of the head in Z-313.
Nonsense. We can't see the left side of the head in Z-313.

Here are his drawings as you posted them:

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif

Notice the very first drawing in the upper left. It is a diagram of the
right side of the head and shows the Harper fragment came from the
parietal bone on that side. How you interpreted that to indicate it came
from the left side is mind boggling. Both the diagram and his written
description indicated the Harper fragment is almost entirely from right
parietal bone with on one side extending slightly to the left of the
midline.

It's always amusing when you get done in by your own exhibits.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
I did not say that he said it was an entrance wound. He recognized that
it was a bullet hole.
Not in the forehead. Do you still think the forehead and frontal bone are
one and the same?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
You made up both of those things and tried to use Angel's findings to
bluff your way through. Angel disputes what you care claiming at every
turn. When was the last time you read through the links you posted. You
No, you are just making up crap. You never even read the HSCA volumes. I
have them.
We are specifically discussing Angel's report. Try to stay focused and
quit trying to move the goalposts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
probably read Angel's writings as carefully as you read the posts you
reply to on this forum which is to say you didn't read it carefully at
all. You probably just skimmed through it like you do hear and assumed his
writings support your position. They don't. They refute everything you
have claimed.
If Angel actually supported you positions you could've and would've quoted
him but nothing he wrote supports what you claim. You simply do what you
I have quoted him sseveral times. You refuse to read.
You have posted links and claimed he supports your positions. I have
posted specific quotes and shown that he does not.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
do here. You browse through his writings and pretend he wrote something
differently than what he actually wrote.
I upload GIFs or JPGs of what he wrote since I know that you do not have
the HSCA volumes.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
If only you would take the time to comprehend the things you post, you
wouldn't make so many misstatements of fact.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Here I marked he entrance and exit for you.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
That doesn't show any of your markings. Was this the one you meant to
post:

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg

What you marked as the entrance wound is actually the exit according to
your own Dr. Angel whom you now want to throw under the bus because he
refutes your conclusions. That hole is also not in the forehead, it is in
the frontal bone above the forehead.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I made scans of the HSCA volume
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel3.gif
Now if you could only find someone to read them to you.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-18 02:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Harper fragment came from the
left side of the head.
If I had a nickel for every time you've claimed a left side blowout, it
would be a nice supplement to my pension. Even your claim that the Harper
fragment is from the left side of the head is erroneous. Angel's diagram
indicated the fragment was primarily from the right side with just one
OMG, you just admitted that the wound extended into the LEFT side of the
head. Are you OK? Do you need to take a nap?
Post by John Corbett
"The Harper fragment photos show it as a roughly trapezoidal piece, 7 X
5.5 cm in size, coming mainly from the upper middle third of the
RIGHT(emphasis mine) parietal bone.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I quoted Dr. Angel for you.
No, you twisted his words for us. I just quoted him above. You see when
you quote someone, you use THEIR own words, you don't substitute your spin
on their words.
I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words.
Post by John Corbett
Angel said the Harper fragment came mainly from the right parietal bone
extending ever so slightly to the left of the midline.
Post by Anthony Marsh
His diagram shows done missing on the left side of the head.
You can SEE it flying out of the left side of the head in Z-313.
Nonsense. We can't see the left side of the head in Z-313.
I said we can see it flying out. I did not say we can see the left side
of the head. We don't see anything flying out of the top of the head or
right side of the head.
Post by John Corbett
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
Notice the very first drawing in the upper left. It is a diagram of the
right side of the head and shows the Harper fragment came from the
parietal bone on that side. How you interpreted that to indicate it came
That was his theory, not mine.
Post by John Corbett
from the left side is mind boggling. Both the diagram and his written
Why should you be surptised that I never acceept the official lies?
That's YOUR job. I wouldn't want to take your job away from you.


I can see that the bottom half of the left parietal bone is still
attached in he head, about the top half of the left parietal bone is
missing. That flew out of JFK's head.
Post by John Corbett
description indicated the Harper fragment is almost entirely from right
parietal bone with on one side extending slightly to the left of the
midline.
Now, wait a minute. You are starting to cave in. You just qualified it
by saying ALMOST. Where is your backbone?
Post by John Corbett
It's always amusing when you get done in by your own exhibits.
It's not MY exhibits. I do you the courtesy of showing you the official
documents because I know you don't have them.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
I did not say that he said it was an entrance wound. He recognized that
it was a bullet hole.
Not in the forehead. Do you still think the forehead and frontal bone are
Yes in the forehead. Can't you see? Can't you read?
Post by John Corbett
one and the same?
FYI the frontal bome is in the forehead.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
You made up both of those things and tried to use Angel's findings to
bluff your way through. Angel disputes what you care claiming at every
turn. When was the last time you read through the links you posted. You
No, you are just making up crap. You never even read the HSCA volumes. I
have them.
We are specifically discussing Angel's report. Try to stay focused and
quit trying to move the goalposts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
probably read Angel's writings as carefully as you read the posts you
reply to on this forum which is to say you didn't read it carefully at
all. You probably just skimmed through it like you do hear and assumed his
writings support your position. They don't. They refute everything you
have claimed.
If Angel actually supported you positions you could've and would've quoted
him but nothing he wrote supports what you claim. You simply do what you
I have quoted him sseveral times. You refuse to read.
You have posted links and claimed he supports your positions. I have
posted specific quotes and shown that he does not.
No, you haven't.
You have never talked to any of the doctors. Just chatting with your
drinking buddies at the bar does not qualify.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
do here. You browse through his writings and pretend he wrote something
differently than what he actually wrote.
I upload GIFs or JPGs of what he wrote since I know that you do not have
the HSCA volumes.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
If only you would take the time to comprehend the things you post, you
wouldn't make so many misstatements of fact.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Here I marked he entrance and exit for you.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
That doesn't show any of your markings. Was this the one you meant to
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
What you marked as the entrance wound is actually the exit according to
your own Dr. Angel whom you now want to throw under the bus because he
refutes your conclusions. That hole is also not in the forehead, it is in
the frontal bone above the forehead.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I made scans of the HSCA volume
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel3.gif
Now if you could only find someone to read them to you.
John Corbett
2020-09-18 15:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Harper fragment came from the
left side of the head.
If I had a nickel for every time you've claimed a left side blowout, it
would be a nice supplement to my pension. Even your claim that the Harper
fragment is from the left side of the head is erroneous. Angel's diagram
indicated the fragment was primarily from the right side with just one
OMG, you just admitted that the wound extended into the LEFT side of the
head. Are you OK? Do you need to take a nap?
What you call an admission is simply a statement of fact. A very small
portion of the Harper fragment came from left of the midline which is
where the left and right parietal bones join. Almost all of the Harper
fragment came from the right parietal bone.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
"The Harper fragment photos show it as a roughly trapezoidal piece, 7 X
5.5 cm in size, coming mainly from the upper middle third of the
RIGHT(emphasis mine) parietal bone.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I quoted Dr. Angel for you.
No, you twisted his words for us. I just quoted him above. You see when
you quote someone, you use THEIR own words, you don't substitute your spin
on their words.
I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words.
A rare moment of honesty from Marsh. He admits to substituting his
judgement for that of a qualified person.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Angel said the Harper fragment came mainly from the right parietal bone
extending ever so slightly to the left of the midline.
Post by Anthony Marsh
His diagram shows done missing on the left side of the head.
You can SEE it flying out of the left side of the head in Z-313.
Nonsense. We can't see the left side of the head in Z-313.
I said we can see it flying out. I did not say we can see the left side
of the head. We don't see anything flying out of the top of the head or
right side of the head.
We see the trail of the Harper fragment flying forward and upward. There
is nothing in frame Z313 that indicates precisely what part of the skull
if came frame. You simply assumed it came from the left side because that
is what your beliefs require. The photos and x-rays taken at the autopsy
reveal that the Harper fragment came from the right side of the head. You
don't want to believe that so you try to substitute your judgement for
that of every qualified professional who has seen all the original photos
and x-rays. Why should anyone trust your judgement over theirs?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
Notice the very first drawing in the upper left. It is a diagram of the
right side of the head and shows the Harper fragment came from the
parietal bone on that side. How you interpreted that to indicate it came
That was his theory, not mine.
For years you have been trying to present Dr. Angel's conclusions as if
they support your position. Now that it is pointed out to you that he
refutes your position, you throw him under the bus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
from the left side is mind boggling. Both the diagram and his written
Why should you be surptised that I never acceept the official lies?
That's YOUR job. I wouldn't want to take your job away from you.
You don't accept anything that disagrees with The World According to
Marsh, which is pretty much all of the available evidence, both forensic
and expert opinions. You have nothing on your side regarding the medical
evidence. All of the qualified people refute you. Not one agrees with your
positions on anything regarding the medical evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I can see that the bottom half of the left parietal bone is still
attached in he head, about the top half of the left parietal bone is
missing. That flew out of JFK's head.
Wrong again Dr. Marsh. Only a very small portion of the Harper fragment
came from the left parietal bone. Almost all of it is from the right
parietal bone. How did you determine it was from the left parietal bone?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
description indicated the Harper fragment is almost entirely from right
parietal bone with on one side extending slightly to the left of the
midline.
Now, wait a minute. You are starting to cave in. You just qualified it
by saying ALMOST. Where is your backbone?
I have enough backbone to simply state facts. You on the other hand refuse
to ever be pinned down on anything. You always leave yourself wiggle room.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
It's always amusing when you get done in by your own exhibits.
It's not MY exhibits. I do you the courtesy of showing you the official
documents because I know you don't have them.
The official documents of both the WC and the HSCA a readily available
online. You aren't doing anybody any favors.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
I did not say that he said it was an entrance wound. He recognized that
it was a bullet hole.
Not in the forehead. Do you still think the forehead and frontal bone are
Yes in the forehead. Can't you see? Can't you read?
Do you think the forehead and frontal bone are one and the same? Yes or no?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
one and the same?
FYI the frontal bome is in the forehead.
Wrong again Dr. Marsh. The forehead is in the frontal bone. That is a
significant difference. Most of the frontal bone is not part of the
forehead. How did you ever make it through medical school? Oh, that's
right. You didn't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
You made up both of those things and tried to use Angel's findings to
bluff your way through. Angel disputes what you care claiming at every
turn. When was the last time you read through the links you posted. You
No, you are just making up crap. You never even read the HSCA volumes. I
have them.
We are specifically discussing Angel's report. Try to stay focused and
quit trying to move the goalposts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
probably read Angel's writings as carefully as you read the posts you
reply to on this forum which is to say you didn't read it carefully at
all. You probably just skimmed through it like you do hear and assumed his
writings support your position. They don't. They refute everything you
have claimed.
If Angel actually supported you positions you could've and would've quoted
him but nothing he wrote supports what you claim. You simply do what you
I have quoted him sseveral times. You refuse to read.
You have posted links and claimed he supports your positions. I have
posted specific quotes and shown that he does not.
No, you haven't.
You have never talked to any of the doctors. Just chatting with your
drinking buddies at the bar does not qualify.
At least I have drinking buddies.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
do here. You browse through his writings and pretend he wrote something
differently than what he actually wrote.
I upload GIFs or JPGs of what he wrote since I know that you do not have
the HSCA volumes.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
If only you would take the time to comprehend the things you post, you
wouldn't make so many misstatements of fact.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Here I marked he entrance and exit for you.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
That doesn't show any of your markings. Was this the one you meant to
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
What you marked as the entrance wound is actually the exit according to
your own Dr. Angel whom you now want to throw under the bus because he
refutes your conclusions. That hole is also not in the forehead, it is in
the frontal bone above the forehead.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I made scans of the HSCA volume
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel3.gif
Now if you could only find someone to read them to you.
John Corbett
2020-09-19 01:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
I said we can see it flying out. I did not say we can see the left side
of the head. We don't see anything flying out of the top of the head or
right side of the head.
I should have pointed this out in my first reply.

Here is the autopsy photo of the left side of JFK's head.


Loading Image...

The entire parietal area of the head is visible. Had the Harper fragment
come from this area, it would have to have ripped open the scalp that
covered it. There would be a gaping hole in JFK's head where the Harper
fragment came from. It is clear the scalp is intact along the entire left
side of his head. Nothing could have been blown out of that side of the
head. This photo alone refutes your claim the Harper fragment came from
the left parietal bone.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-20 17:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
I said we can see it flying out. I did not say we can see the left side
of the head. We don't see anything flying out of the top of the head or
right side of the head.
I should have pointed this out in my first reply.
Here is the autopsy photo of the left side of JFK's head.
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Autopsy_photos/jfk02b.jpg
The entire parietal area of the head is visible. Had the Harper fragment
Again, you are being silly. I did not talk about the parietal area,'I am
talking about the parietal BONE which we can see on Fox 8.
Post by John Corbett
come from this area, it would have to have ripped open the scalp that
Bullets tend to do that. Jackie put the head back toether.
In some other Fox photos and Groden photos you can ee only scap, no none.
In others the scalp has been pulled down by the autopy doctors.
In the Zapruder film at frame 313 the scalp looks completeky intact on
the right side of the head. There is no place for the Harper fragment
to exit.
Post by John Corbett
covered it. There would be a gaping hole in JFK's head where the Harper
fragment came from. It is clear the scalp is intact along the entire left
No, silly. You can't see a gaping hole anywhere.
And in frame edqe you can't see any hole anywhere.
Post by John Corbett
side of his head. Nothing could have been blown out of that side of the
head. This photo alone refutes your claim the Harper fragment came from
the left parietal bone.
Nonsense. And it doesn't support your idea either.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-20 17:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Harper fragment came from the
left side of the head.
If I had a nickel for every time you've claimed a left side blowout, it
would be a nice supplement to my pension. Even your claim that the Harper
fragment is from the left side of the head is erroneous. Angel's diagram
indicated the fragment was primarily from the right side with just one
OMG, you just admitted that the wound extended into the LEFT side of the
head. Are you OK? Do you need to take a nap?
What you call an admission is simply a statement of fact. A very small
portion of the Harper fragment came from left of the midline which is
where the left and right parietal bones join. Almost all of the Harper
fragment came from the right parietal bone.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
"The Harper fragment photos show it as a roughly trapezoidal piece, 7 X
5.5 cm in size, coming mainly from the upper middle third of the
RIGHT(emphasis mine) parietal bone.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I quoted Dr. Angel for you.
No, you twisted his words for us. I just quoted him above. You see when
you quote someone, you use THEIR own words, you don't substitute your spin
on their words.
I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words.
A rare moment of honesty from Marsh. He admits to substituting his
judgement for that of a qualified person.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Angel said the Harper fragment came mainly from the right parietal bone
extending ever so slightly to the left of the midline.
Post by Anthony Marsh
His diagram shows done missing on the left side of the head.
You can SEE it flying out of the left side of the head in Z-313.
Nonsense. We can't see the left side of the head in Z-313.
I said we can see it flying out. I did not say we can see the left side
of the head. We don't see anything flying out of the top of the head or
right side of the head.
We see the trail of the Harper fragment flying forward and upward. There
Not forward. To the left.
Post by John Corbett
is nothing in frame Z313 that indicates precisely what part of the skull
if came frame. You simply assumed it came from the left side because that
OK, then show how that fragment could come from the back of the head or
right of the head.
Post by John Corbett
is what your beliefs require. The photos and x-rays taken at the autopsy
reveal that the Harper fragment came from the right side of the head. You
The X-ays were taken before they unwrapped the head and it fell apart.
Post by John Corbett
don't want to believe that so you try to substitute your judgement for
that of every qualified professional who has seen all the original photos
and x-rays. Why should anyone trust your judgement over theirs?
I am glad to do that when I know that they lied.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
Notice the very first drawing in the upper left. It is a diagram of the
right side of the head and shows the Harper fragment came from the
parietal bone on that side. How you interpreted that to indicate it came
That was his theory, not mine.
For years you have been trying to present Dr. Angel's conclusions as if
they support your position. Now that it is pointed out to you that he
Wrong. I point out where he gave us clues that led to my theory.
Post by John Corbett
refutes your position, you throw him under the bus.
am glad to throw anyone under the bus if I know why they are wrong.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
from the left side is mind boggling. Both the diagram and his written
Why should you be surptised that I never acceept the official lies?
That's YOUR job. I wouldn't want to take your job away from you.
You don't accept anything that disagrees with The World According to
Marsh, which is pretty much all of the available evidence, both forensic
Well. obviously when I know rhwy are wrong.
Post by John Corbett
and expert opinions. You have nothing on your side regarding the medical
evidence. All of the qualified people refute you. Not one agrees with your
I have the autopsy photos. YOU don't. All you have are the WC lies.
Post by John Corbett
positions on anything regarding the medical evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I can see that the bottom half of the left parietal bone is still
attached in he head, about the top half of the left parietal bone is
missing. That flew out of JFK's head.
Wrong again Dr. Marsh. Only a very small portion of the Harper fragment
How small? Half? That is still the left parietal. You lose again.
Post by John Corbett
came from the left parietal bone. Almost all of it is from the right
I hope you don't think he left parietal and right parietal are connected.

Loading Image...

The left parietal can not drag the right parietal with it.

The Harper bone is ONE solid bone. You can argue with Harper about
exactly where it came from. That's OK with me.
Post by John Corbett
parietal bone. How did you determine it was from the left parietal bone?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
description indicated the Harper fragment is almost entirely from right
Almost? Now you're starting to cave in. Grow a back bone, will ya.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
parietal bone with on one side extending slightly to the left of the
midline.
Now, wait a minute. You are starting to cave in. You just qualified it
by saying ALMOST. Where is your backbone?
I have enough backbone to simply state facts. You on the other hand refuse
to ever be pinned down on anything. You always leave yourself wiggle room.
False. I am very specific. Read all my messages.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
It's always amusing when you get done in by your own exhibits.
It's not MY exhibits. I do you the courtesy of showing you the official
documents because I know you don't have them.
The official documents of both the WC and the HSCA a readily available
online. You aren't doing anybody any favors.
Then why are you so confused about left and right?
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
I did not say that he said it was an entrance wound. He recognized that
it was a bullet hole.
Not in the forehead. Do you still think the forehead and frontal bone are
Yes in the forehead. Can't you see? Can't you read?
Do you think the forehead and frontal bone are one and the same? Yes or no?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
one and the same?
FYI the frontal bome is in the forehead.
Wrong again Dr. Marsh. The forehead is in the frontal bone. That is a
That makes no sense. The forehead is more than just the frontal bone.
The frontal bone is only one peart of the forehead.
Post by John Corbett
significant difference. Most of the frontal bone is not part of the
forehead. How did you ever make it through medical school? Oh, that's
right. You didn't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
You made up both of those things and tried to use Angel's findings to
bluff your way through. Angel disputes what you care claiming at every
turn. When was the last time you read through the links you posted. You
No, you are just making up crap. You never even read the HSCA volumes. I
have them.
We are specifically discussing Angel's report. Try to stay focused and
quit trying to move the goalposts.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
probably read Angel's writings as carefully as you read the posts you
reply to on this forum which is to say you didn't read it carefully at
all. You probably just skimmed through it like you do hear and assumed his
writings support your position. They don't. They refute everything you
have claimed.
If Angel actually supported you positions you could've and would've quoted
him but nothing he wrote supports what you claim. You simply do what you
I have quoted him sseveral times. You refuse to read.
You have posted links and claimed he supports your positions. I have
posted specific quotes and shown that he does not.
No, you haven't.
You have never talked to any of the doctors. Just chatting with your
drinking buddies at the bar does not qualify.
At least I have drinking buddies.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
do here. You browse through his writings and pretend he wrote something
differently than what he actually wrote.
I upload GIFs or JPGs of what he wrote since I know that you do not have
the HSCA volumes.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
If only you would take the time to comprehend the things you post, you
wouldn't make so many misstatements of fact.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Here I marked he entrance and exit for you.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
That doesn't show any of your markings. Was this the one you meant to
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
What you marked as the entrance wound is actually the exit according to
your own Dr. Angel whom you now want to throw under the bus because he
refutes your conclusions. That hole is also not in the forehead, it is in
the frontal bone above the forehead.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I made scans of the HSCA volume
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel3.gif
Now if you could only find someone to read them to you.
John Corbett
2020-09-21 13:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Harper fragment came from the
left side of the head.
If I had a nickel for every time you've claimed a left side blowout, it
would be a nice supplement to my pension. Even your claim that the Harper
fragment is from the left side of the head is erroneous. Angel's diagram
indicated the fragment was primarily from the right side with just one
OMG, you just admitted that the wound extended into the LEFT side of the
head. Are you OK? Do you need to take a nap?
What you call an admission is simply a statement of fact. A very small
portion of the Harper fragment came from left of the midline which is
where the left and right parietal bones join. Almost all of the Harper
fragment came from the right parietal bone.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
"The Harper fragment photos show it as a roughly trapezoidal piece, 7 X
5.5 cm in size, coming mainly from the upper middle third of the
RIGHT(emphasis mine) parietal bone.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I quoted Dr. Angel for you.
No, you twisted his words for us. I just quoted him above. You see when
you quote someone, you use THEIR own words, you don't substitute your spin
on their words.
I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words.
A rare moment of honesty from Marsh. He admits to substituting his
judgement for that of a qualified person.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Angel said the Harper fragment came mainly from the right parietal bone
extending ever so slightly to the left of the midline.
Post by Anthony Marsh
His diagram shows done missing on the left side of the head.
You can SEE it flying out of the left side of the head in Z-313.
Nonsense. We can't see the left side of the head in Z-313.
I said we can see it flying out. I did not say we can see the left side
of the head. We don't see anything flying out of the top of the head or
right side of the head.
We see the trail of the Harper fragment flying forward and upward. There
Not forward. To the left.
Forward AND left.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
is nothing in frame Z313 that indicates precisely what part of the skull
if came frame. You simply assumed it came from the left side because that
OK, then show how that fragment could come from the back of the head or
right of the head.
It came from the top right of the head. Nothing would have been in the way
to prevent it from going from the upper right parietal to he grass median
south of Elm St. It went upward, forward, and leftward in an arc.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
is what your beliefs require. The photos and x-rays taken at the autopsy
reveal that the Harper fragment came from the right side of the head. You
The X-ays were taken before they unwrapped the head and it fell apart.
Why would that matter to the point being discussed?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
don't want to believe that so you try to substitute your judgement for
that of every qualified professional who has seen all the original photos
and x-rays. Why should anyone trust your judgement over theirs?
I am glad to do that when I know that they lied.
Because they disagree with your conclusions.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
Notice the very first drawing in the upper left. It is a diagram of the
right side of the head and shows the Harper fragment came from the
parietal bone on that side. How you interpreted that to indicate it came
That was his theory, not mine.
For years you have been trying to present Dr. Angel's conclusions as if
they support your position. Now that it is pointed out to you that he
Wrong. I point out where he gave us clues that led to my theory.
As if anybody cares about your theory.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
refutes your position, you throw him under the bus.
am glad to throw anyone under the bus if I know why they are wrong.
You mean if they disagree with you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
from the left side is mind boggling. Both the diagram and his written
Why should you be surptised that I never acceept the official lies?
That's YOUR job. I wouldn't want to take your job away from you.
You don't accept anything that disagrees with The World According to
Marsh, which is pretty much all of the available evidence, both forensic
Well. obviously when I know rhwy are wrong.
Because they disagree with you. Why should any of us accept your
conclusions over those of qualified people?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
and expert opinions. You have nothing on your side regarding the medical
evidence. All of the qualified people refute you. Not one agrees with your
I have the autopsy photos. YOU don't. All you have are the WC lies.
Is that so. What autopsy photos do you have that aren't available online.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
positions on anything regarding the medical evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I can see that the bottom half of the left parietal bone is still
attached in he head, about the top half of the left parietal bone is
missing. That flew out of JFK's head.
Wrong again Dr. Marsh. Only a very small portion of the Harper fragment
How small? Half? That is still the left parietal. You lose again.
Post by John Corbett
came from the left parietal bone. Almost all of it is from the right
I hope you don't think he left parietal and right parietal are connected.
Are you serious, Dr. Marsh? Of course they are connected.

"The parietal bones (/pəˈraɪ.ɪtəl/) are two bones
in the skull which, when joined together at a fibrous joint, form the
sides and roof of the cranium. In humans, each bone is roughly
quadrilateral in form, and has two surfaces, four borders, and four
angles. It is named from the Latin paries (-ietis), wall."
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/skull.gif
Looks like something a fifth grader might draw.
Post by Anthony Marsh
The left parietal can not drag the right parietal with it.
The Harper bone is ONE solid bone. You can argue with Harper about
exactly where it came from. That's OK with me.
It is a solid fragment which came primarily from the right parietal bone
with a small piece of it being from the left parietal.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
parietal bone. How did you determine it was from the left parietal bone?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
description indicated the Harper fragment is almost entirely from right
Almost? Now you're starting to cave in. Grow a back bone, will ya.
Your desperation is showing.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
parietal bone with on one side extending slightly to the left of the
midline.
Now, wait a minute. You are starting to cave in. You just qualified it
by saying ALMOST. Where is your backbone?
I have enough backbone to simply state facts. You on the other hand refuse
to ever be pinned down on anything. You always leave yourself wiggle room.
False. I am very specific. Read all my messages.
Do I have to?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
It's always amusing when you get done in by your own exhibits.
It's not MY exhibits. I do you the courtesy of showing you the official
documents because I know you don't have them.
The official documents of both the WC and the HSCA a readily available
online. You aren't doing anybody any favors.
Then why are you so confused about left and right?
Why don't you know that the left and right parietal bones are connected?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
I did not say that he said it was an entrance wound. He recognized that
it was a bullet hole.
Not in the forehead. Do you still think the forehead and frontal bone are
Yes in the forehead. Can't you see? Can't you read?
Do you think the forehead and frontal bone are one and the same? Yes or no?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
one and the same?
FYI the frontal bome is in the forehead.
Wrong again Dr. Marsh. The forehead is in the frontal bone. That is a
That makes no sense. The forehead is more than just the frontal bone.
The frontal bone is only one peart of the forehead.
You have it backwards as usual. The entire forehead is within the frontal
bone. The frontal bone encompasses a lot more than just the forehead. A
bullet hole in the frontal bone does not have to be in the forehead and in
this case it was not. It was above and to the right of the forehead.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-18 20:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Harper fragment came from the
left side of the head.
If I had a nickel for every time you've claimed a left side blowout, it
would be a nice supplement to my pension. Even your claim that the Harper
fragment is from the left side of the head is erroneous. Angel's diagram
indicated the fragment was primarily from the right side with just one
OMG, you just admitted that the wound extended into the LEFT side of the
head. Are you OK? Do you need to take a nap?
It extends ever so slightly into the left-top of the head, but was
primarily on the right-top of the head, according to Angel.

Is that where you think the Harper fragment came from? If so, we agree.

If not, why did you bother to cite Dr. Angel, since you disagree with him?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
"The Harper fragment photos show it as a roughly trapezoidal piece, 7 X
5.5 cm in size, coming mainly from the upper middle third of the
RIGHT(emphasis mine) parietal bone.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I quoted Dr. Angel for you.
No, you twisted his words for us. I just quoted him above. You see when
you quote someone, you use THEIR own words, you don't substitute your spin
on their words.
I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words.
In other words, your conclusions are your own, and not Dr. Angel's. But
you have no medical background and aren't qualified to render a medical
opinion. That's for experts who by their education, training, and
experience can speak knowledgeably about such things. That rules you out.
So you pretend to cite Dr. Angel to give you a veneer of expertise, but
then ignore his conclusions entirely and substitute your own. Did you
think we wouldn't notice the switcheroo?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Angel said the Harper fragment came mainly from the right parietal bone
extending ever so slightly to the left of the midline.
Post by Anthony Marsh
His diagram shows done missing on the left side of the head.
You can SEE it flying out of the left side of the head in Z-313.
Nonsense. We can't see the left side of the head in Z-313.
I said we can see it flying out. I did not say we can see the left side
of the head. We don't see anything flying out of the top of the head or
right side of the head.
How did you determine it was ejected from the left side of the head if you
cannot see the left side of the head, and the autopsy noted no exit wound
on the left side of the head and the HSCA FPP noted no exit wound on the
left side of the head? Where's your evidence?

You have none.

Dr. Angle, whom you cited, said the Harper fragment came from the top of
the head, and that's where his drawing puts it. Why did you bother to
mention him if you were just going to ignore his conclusions? Do you think
you're more qualified than he is to render an opinion on this? If so, why?
What is your medical expertise?

I suspect you're driven to conclude a left side exit wound because you're
committed to a belief in the veracity of a knoll shot as 'determined' by
the HSCA acoustic study. Because you believe in the knoll shot, and
believe it struck JFK in the head, you reject all the evidence that
conflicts with your belief, and then make conclusions not supported by the
evidence (like an left side of the head exit wound).

This is what happens when you throw out the baby and keep the bath water.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
Notice the very first drawing in the upper left. It is a diagram of the
right side of the head and shows the Harper fragment came from the
parietal bone on that side. How you interpreted that to indicate it came
That was his theory, not mine.
Exactly! His opinion has value as he's an expert. Your opinion has no value,
as you are not.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
from the left side is mind boggling. Both the diagram and his written
Why should you be surptised that I never acceept the official lies?
That's YOUR job. I wouldn't want to take your job away from you.
You beg the question with the insertion of "official lies" in your
question. "Do you still beat your wife?" is another example of this.

We've covered this logical fallacy extensively. Please stop.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I can see that the bottom half of the left parietal bone is still
attached in he head, about the top half of the left parietal bone is
missing. That flew out of JFK's head.
Post by John Corbett
description indicated the Harper fragment is almost entirely from right
parietal bone with on one side extending slightly to the left of the
midline.
Now, wait a minute. You are starting to cave in. You just qualified it
by saying ALMOST. Where is your backbone?
Begging the question once more. Angle concluded the Harper fragment came
from primarily the right side of the top of the head, with a small portion
of the Harper fragment extending into the left side. That's what Angle
said, and that's what Corbett said.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
It's always amusing when you get done in by your own exhibits.
It's not MY exhibits. I do you the courtesy of showing you the official
documents because I know you don't have them.
And then you ignore what they say and substitute your own conclusions.
That's the amusing part - that you have no evidence to support your claims
and you cite the evidence that supports ours.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
I did not say that he said it was an entrance wound. He recognized that
it was a bullet hole.
Not in the forehead. Do you still think the forehead and frontal bone are
Yes in the forehead. Can't you see? Can't you read?
Post by John Corbett
one and the same?
FYI the frontal bome is in the forehead.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
You made up both of those things and tried to use Angel's findings to
bluff your way through. Angel disputes what you care claiming at every
turn. When was the last time you read through the links you posted. You
No, you are just making up crap. You never even read the HSCA volumes. I
have them.
We are specifically discussing Angel's report. Try to stay focused and
quit trying to move the goalposts.
Tony of course must ignore Angle's report, as it disagrees with his
conclusions. Yet Tony originally cited Dr. Angle's report as if it agreed
with his conclusions. Ultimately, he agreed it did not (" I put my own
spin on the conclusions, not his words").
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
probably read Angel's writings as carefully as you read the posts you
reply to on this forum which is to say you didn't read it carefully at
all. You probably just skimmed through it like you do hear and assumed his
writings support your position. They don't. They refute everything you
have claimed.
If Angel actually supported you positions you could've and would've quoted
him but nothing he wrote supports what you claim. You simply do what you
I have quoted him sseveral times. You refuse to read.
You have posted links and claimed he supports your positions. I have
posted specific quotes and shown that he does not.
No, you haven't.
Yes, he has, and you admitted your conclusions are different than Dr.
Angle's (" I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words").
Post by Anthony Marsh
You have never talked to any of the doctors. Just chatting with your
drinking buddies at the bar does not qualify.
Talking to the doctors doesn't make you an expert nor does it make you
qualified to discard the expert opinions and substitute your own, as you
admit you've done (" I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his
words").
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
do here. You browse through his writings and pretend he wrote something
differently than what he actually wrote.
I upload GIFs or JPGs of what he wrote since I know that you do not have
the HSCA volumes.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
If only you would take the time to comprehend the things you post, you
wouldn't make so many misstatements of fact.
Tony ignored, of course. He doesn't understand that he doesn't understand
what he doesn't understand.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Here I marked he entrance and exit for you.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
That doesn't show any of your markings. Was this the one you meant to
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
What you marked as the entrance wound is actually the exit according to
your own Dr. Angel whom you now want to throw under the bus because he
refutes your conclusions. That hole is also not in the forehead, it is in
the frontal bone above the forehead.
Tony of course ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
I made scans of the HSCA volume
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel3.gif
Now if you could only find someone to read them to you.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-20 17:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Harper fragment came from the
left side of the head.
If I had a nickel for every time you've claimed a left side blowout, it
would be a nice supplement to my pension. Even your claim that the Harper
fragment is from the left side of the head is erroneous. Angel's diagram
indicated the fragment was primarily from the right side with just one
OMG, you just admitted that the wound extended into the LEFT side of the
head. Are you OK? Do you need to take a nap?
It extends ever so slightly into the left-top of the head, but was
primarily on the right-top of the head, according to Angel.
Is that where you think the Harper fragment came from? If so, we agree.
If not, why did you bother to cite Dr. Angel, since you disagree with him?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
"The Harper fragment photos show it as a roughly trapezoidal piece, 7 X
5.5 cm in size, coming mainly from the upper middle third of the
RIGHT(emphasis mine) parietal bone.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I quoted Dr. Angel for you.
No, you twisted his words for us. I just quoted him above. You see when
you quote someone, you use THEIR own words, you don't substitute your spin
on their words.
I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words.
In other words, your conclusions are your own, and not Dr. Angel's. But
Yes, I said that.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
you have no medical background and aren't qualified to render a medical
You aren't qualified to attack me. You don't have the autopsy photos, I
do. You have never talked to the doctors, I have. You have nothing.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
opinion. That's for experts who by their education, training, and
experience can speak knowledgeably about such things. That rules you out.
Then how come the HSCA conclusions are different from the autopsy
doctor? The moved up the wound from the occipital to the cowlick.
Which are you going to call the amateurs? Does it depend on what day of
the weekend it is?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
So you pretend to cite Dr. Angel to give you a veneer of expertise, but
No, I did not.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
then ignore his conclusions entirely and substitute your own. Did you
think we wouldn't notice the switcheroo?
If I show you a picture I don't have to agree with everything the artist
ever said.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Angel said the Harper fragment came mainly from the right parietal bone
extending ever so slightly to the left of the midline.
Silly. The Harper fagment is one solid piece of bone.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
His diagram shows done missing on the left side of the head.
You can SEE it flying out of the left side of the head in Z-313.
Nonsense. We can't see the left side of the head in Z-313.
I said we can see it flying out. I did not say we can see the left side
of the head. We don't see anything flying out of the top of the head or
right side of the head.
Can you even see that it flew out of the left side of the head?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
How did you determine it was ejected from the left side of the head if you
cannot see the left side of the head, and the autopsy noted no exit wound
trajectory. Draw the line back to the head.


https://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/ADemonstrableImpossibility/ADemonstrableImpossibility.htm
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
on the left side of the head and the HSCA FPP noted no exit wound on the
left side of the head? Where's your evidence?
You have none.
Dr. Angle, whom you cited, said the Harper fragment came from the top of
the head, and that's where his drawing puts it. Why did you bother to
mention him if you were just going to ignore his conclusions? Do you think
you're more qualified than he is to render an opinion on this? If so, why?
What is your medical expertise?
I suspect you're driven to conclude a left side exit wound because you're
committed to a belief in the veracity of a knoll shot as 'determined' by
the HSCA acoustic study. Because you believe in the knoll shot, and
believe it struck JFK in the head, you reject all the evidence that
conflicts with your belief, and then make conclusions not supported by the
evidence (like an left side of the head exit wound).
This is what happens when you throw out the baby and keep the bath water.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
Notice the very first drawing in the upper left. It is a diagram of the
right side of the head and shows the Harper fragment came from the
parietal bone on that side. How you interpreted that to indicate it came
That was his theory, not mine.
Exactly! His opinion has value as he's an expert. Your opinion has no value,
You have no value. You haven't seen the evidence. I have.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
as you are not.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
from the left side is mind boggling. Both the diagram and his written
Why should you be surptised that I never acceept the official lies?
That's YOUR job. I wouldn't want to take your job away from you.
You beg the question with the insertion of "official lies" in your
question. "Do you still beat your wife?" is another example of this.
No, silly. I didn't ask a loaded question. I was just curious if you
always believe government lies. You are afraid to answer.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We've covered this logical fallacy extensively. Please stop.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I can see that the bottom half of the left parietal bone is still
attached in he head, about the top half of the left parietal bone is
missing. That flew out of JFK's head.
Post by John Corbett
description indicated the Harper fragment is almost entirely from right
parietal bone with on one side extending slightly to the left of the
midline.
Now, wait a minute. You are starting to cave in. You just qualified it
by saying ALMOST. Where is your backbone?
Begging the question once more. Angle concluded the Harper fragment came
from primarily the right side of the top of the head, with a small portion
of the Harper fragment extending into the left side. That's what Angle
said, and that's what Corbett said.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
It's always amusing when you get done in by your own exhibits.
It's not MY exhibits. I do you the courtesy of showing you the official
documents because I know you don't have them.
And then you ignore what they say and substitute your own conclusions.
Yes, sometimes I do because I know rhey are wrong.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That's the amusing part - that you have no evidence to support your claims
and you cite the evidence that supports ours.
No, there is no evidence to support you.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
I did not say that he said it was an entrance wound. He recognized that
it was a bullet hole.
Not in the forehead. Do you still think the forehead and frontal bone are
Yes in the forehead. Can't you see? Can't you read?
Post by John Corbett
one and the same?
FYI the frontal bome is in the forehead.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
You made up both of those things and tried to use Angel's findings to
bluff your way through. Angel disputes what you care claiming at every
turn. When was the last time you read through the links you posted. You
No, you are just making up crap. You never even read the HSCA volumes. I
have them.
We are specifically discussing Angel's report. Try to stay focused and
quit trying to move the goalposts.
Tony of course must ignore Angle's report, as it disagrees with his
I don't ignore anything. Sometimes it is right, sometimes it is wrong.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
conclusions. Yet Tony originally cited Dr. Angle's report as if it agreed
with his conclusions. Ultimately, he agreed it did not (" I put my own
spin on the conclusions, not his words").
My conclusion are valid even if Angel is wrong about something.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
probably read Angel's writings as carefully as you read the posts you
reply to on this forum which is to say you didn't read it carefully at
all. You probably just skimmed through it like you do hear and assumed his
writings support your position. They don't. They refute everything you
have claimed.
If Angel actually supported you positions you could've and would've quoted
him but nothing he wrote supports what you claim. You simply do what you
I have quoted him sseveral times. You refuse to read.
You have posted links and claimed he supports your positions. I have
posted specific quotes and shown that he does not.
No, you haven't.
Yes, he has, and you admitted your conclusions are different than Dr.
Angle's (" I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words").
Post by Anthony Marsh
You have never talked to any of the doctors. Just chatting with your
drinking buddies at the bar does not qualify.
Talking to the doctors doesn't make you an expert nor does it make you
I never claimed to be an expert. But I am a researcher. You are not.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
qualified to discard the expert opinions and substitute your own, as you
admit you've done (" I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his
words").
I don't put spin on conclusions. Stop making up crap.
Try to be honest.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
do here. You browse through his writings and pretend he wrote something
differently than what he actually wrote.
I upload GIFs or JPGs of what he wrote since I know that you do not have
the HSCA volumes.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
If only you would take the time to comprehend the things you post, you
wouldn't make so many misstatements of fact.
Tony ignored, of course. He doesn't understand that he doesn't understand
what he doesn't understand.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Here I marked he entrance and exit for you.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
That doesn't show any of your markings. Was this the one you meant to
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
What you marked as the entrance wound is actually the exit according to
your own Dr. Angel whom you now want to throw under the bus because he
refutes your conclusions. That hole is also not in the forehead, it is in
the frontal bone above the forehead.
Tony of course ignored this as well.
I never ignore you, but McAdams deletes my messsages to protect you.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
I made scans of the HSCA volume
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel3.gif
Now if you could only find someone to read them to you.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-21 13:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Angel never said their was a blowout on the left side of the head just as
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Harper fragment came from the
left side of the head.
If I had a nickel for every time you've claimed a left side blowout, it
would be a nice supplement to my pension. Even your claim that the Harper
fragment is from the left side of the head is erroneous. Angel's diagram
indicated the fragment was primarily from the right side with just one
OMG, you just admitted that the wound extended into the LEFT side of the
head. Are you OK? Do you need to take a nap?
It extends ever so slightly into the left-top of the head, but was
primarily on the right-top of the head, according to Angel.
Is that where you think the Harper fragment came from? If so, we agree.
If not, why did you bother to cite Dr. Angel, since you disagree with him?
Tony ignores this, of course.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
"The Harper fragment photos show it as a roughly trapezoidal piece, 7 X
5.5 cm in size, coming mainly from the upper middle third of the
RIGHT(emphasis mine) parietal bone.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I quoted Dr. Angel for you.
No, you twisted his words for us. I just quoted him above. You see when
you quote someone, you use THEIR own words, you don't substitute your spin
on their words.
I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words.
In other words, your conclusions are your own, and not Dr. Angel's. But
Yes, I said that.
So they can be dismissed. You're not qualified to render an opinion as
you're not a expert.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
you have no medical background and aren't qualified to render a medical
You aren't qualified to attack me. You don't have the autopsy photos, I
do. You have never talked to the doctors, I have. You have nothing.
I have two things you don't. The knowledge that expert testimony is more
meaning than that of a lay person with no expertise in the subject matter,
and the knowledge that you're not an expert in the field you're rendering
your opinion.

That's all I need to know your opinions are meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
opinion. That's for experts who by their education, training, and
experience can speak knowledgeably about such things. That rules you out.
Tony ignores this.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Then how come the HSCA conclusions are different from the autopsy
doctor? The moved up the wound from the occipital to the cowlick.
Which are you going to call the amateurs? Does it depend on what day of
the weekend it is?
Tony pretends that because two sets of experts disagree on some things,
somehow that makes him their equal, and he can thereby dismiss their
opinions and substitute his own.

I regret to inform Tony it doesn't work that way.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
So you pretend to cite Dr. Angel to give you a veneer of expertise, but
No, I did not.
That's exactly what you did. Pressed to cite an expert, you posted links
to Dr. Angel's conclusions, then had to admit he doesn't agree with
you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
then ignore his conclusions entirely and substitute your own. Did you
think we wouldn't notice the switcheroo?
If I show you a picture I don't have to agree with everything the artist
ever said.
You're showing us a picture and disagreeing with the artist about what he
painted.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Angel said the Harper fragment came mainly from the right parietal bone
extending ever so slightly to the left of the midline.
Silly. The Harper fagment is one solid piece of bone.
Non sequitur. No one every said differently.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
His diagram shows done missing on the left side of the head.
You can SEE it flying out of the left side of the head in Z-313.
Nonsense. We can't see the left side of the head in Z-313.
I said we can see it flying out. I did not say we can see the left side
of the head. We don't see anything flying out of the top of the head or
right side of the head.
Can you even see that it flew out of the left side of the head?
No, because I can't see the left side of the head in the Zapruder film.
Neither can you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
How did you determine it was ejected from the left side of the head if you
cannot see the left side of the head, and the autopsy noted no exit wound
trajectory. Draw the line back to the head.
Not my job. This is your job to establish this. It's your argument - not
mine - that needs the support.
Post by Anthony Marsh
https://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/ADemonstrableImpossibility/ADemonstrableImpossibility.htm
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
on the left side of the head and the HSCA FPP noted no exit wound on the
left side of the head? Where's your evidence?
You have none.
Dr. Angle, whom you cited, said the Harper fragment came from the top of
the head, and that's where his drawing puts it. Why did you bother to
mention him if you were just going to ignore his conclusions? Do you think
you're more qualified than he is to render an opinion on this? If so, why?
What is your medical expertise?
I suspect you're driven to conclude a left side exit wound because you're
committed to a belief in the veracity of a knoll shot as 'determined' by
the HSCA acoustic study. Because you believe in the knoll shot, and
believe it struck JFK in the head, you reject all the evidence that
conflicts with your belief, and then make conclusions not supported by the
evidence (like an left side of the head exit wound).
This is what happens when you throw out the baby and keep the bath water.
Tony ignores this.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
Notice the very first drawing in the upper left. It is a diagram of the
right side of the head and shows the Harper fragment came from the
parietal bone on that side. How you interpreted that to indicate it came
That was his theory, not mine.
Exactly! His opinion has value as he's an expert. Your opinion has no value,
as you are not.
You have no value. You haven't seen the evidence. I have.
Tony ignores my point entirely, of course, and goes ad hominem ("You have
no value").
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
from the left side is mind boggling. Both the diagram and his written
Why should you be surptised that I never acceept the official lies?
That's YOUR job. I wouldn't want to take your job away from you.
You beg the question with the insertion of "official lies" in your
question. "Do you still beat your wife?" is another example of this.
No, silly. I didn't ask a loaded question. I was just curious if you
always believe government lies. You are afraid to answer.
You begged the question, you beg it still.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We've covered this logical fallacy extensively. Please stop.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I can see that the bottom half of the left parietal bone is still
attached in he head, about the top half of the left parietal bone is
missing. That flew out of JFK's head.
Post by John Corbett
description indicated the Harper fragment is almost entirely from right
parietal bone with on one side extending slightly to the left of the
midline.
Now, wait a minute. You are starting to cave in. You just qualified it
by saying ALMOST. Where is your backbone?
Begging the question once more. Angle concluded the Harper fragment came
from primarily the right side of the top of the head, with a small portion
of the Harper fragment extending into the left side. That's what Angle
said, and that's what Corbett said.
Tony ignored this.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
It's always amusing when you get done in by your own exhibits.
It's not MY exhibits. I do you the courtesy of showing you the official
documents because I know you don't have them.
And then you ignore what they say and substitute your own conclusions.
Yes, sometimes I do because I know rhey are wrong.
You just admitted that there was no good reason to cite Angel's documents
--- they disagree with your claims entirely.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That's the amusing part - that you have no evidence to support your claims
and you cite the evidence that supports ours.
No, there is no evidence to support you.
The business records support me (Oswald ordered and paid for, and had
shipped to his PO box, the weapon used to kill Kennedy.

The ballistics support me (Oswald's rifle, Oswald's shells, Oswald's
fragments, Oswald's nearly whole bullet recovered at Parkland).

The photographic evidence supports me (it shows Oswald holding the rifle
used to kill the President, those photos were taken with Oswald's own
camera to the exclusion of all other cameras in the world).

The fingerprint and palmprint evidence supports me (Oswald's fingerprints
on the trigger guard, Oswald's palmprint on the sniper's nest bag,
Oswald's palmprint on the sniper's nest boxes).

The autopsy evidence supports me (the autopsy doctors concluded all the
shots came from above and behind the President)

The Forensic Pathology panel supports me (they concluded, as did the
autopsists, that the shots that struck the President came from above and
behind the level of the deceased.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
he never said there was an entry wound or any other wound in the forehead.
I did not say that he said it was an entrance wound. He recognized that
it was a bullet hole.
Not in the forehead. Do you still think the forehead and frontal bone are
Yes in the forehead. Can't you see? Can't you read?
Post by John Corbett
one and the same?
FYI the frontal bome is in the forehead.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
You made up both of those things and tried to use Angel's findings to
bluff your way through. Angel disputes what you care claiming at every
turn. When was the last time you read through the links you posted. You
No, you are just making up crap. You never even read the HSCA volumes. I
have them.
We are specifically discussing Angel's report. Try to stay focused and
quit trying to move the goalposts.
Tony of course must ignore Angle's report, as it disagrees with his
conclusions. Yet Tony originally cited Dr. Angle's report as if it agreed
with his conclusions. Ultimately, he agreed it did not (" I put my own
spin on the conclusions, not his words").
I don't ignore anything. Sometimes it is right, sometimes it is wrong.
My conclusion are valid even if Angel is wrong about something.
According to what experts are your conclusions valid? Remember, you're not
an expert so nobody cares what your conclusions are. Further, you don't
get to affirm the validity of your own conclusions.... there's a bit of
bias in that assessment, don't you think?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
probably read Angel's writings as carefully as you read the posts you
reply to on this forum which is to say you didn't read it carefully at
all. You probably just skimmed through it like you do hear and assumed his
writings support your position. They don't. They refute everything you
have claimed.
If Angel actually supported you positions you could've and would've quoted
him but nothing he wrote supports what you claim. You simply do what you
I have quoted him sseveral times. You refuse to read.
You have posted links and claimed he supports your positions. I have
posted specific quotes and shown that he does not.
No, you haven't.
Yes, he has, and you admitted your conclusions are different than Dr.
Angle's (" I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words").
You admitted already you disagree with Dr. Angel.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You have never talked to any of the doctors. Just chatting with your
drinking buddies at the bar does not qualify.
Talking to the doctors doesn't make you an expert nor does it make you
I never claimed to be an expert. But I am a researcher. You are not.
You're discarding Dr. Angel's conclusions and substituting your own.
You're certainly pretending to be qualified to do that. It doesn't matter
whether I'm a researcher, a scientist, a high school dropout or a Nobel
Prize laureate.

Your substituting your own opinions for those of Dr. Angel doesn't vanish
because of anything I did or didn't do.

Your problems with your arguments are still there. Attacking my
qualifications as a "researcher" doesn't change that any (what are the
qualifications necessary to call oneself a 'researcher', anyway)?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
qualified to discard the expert opinions and substitute your own, as you
admit you've done (" I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his
words").
I don't put spin on conclusions. Stop making up crap.
I quoted you saying exactly that. Here it is again:
("I put my own spin on the conclusions, not his words").
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try to be honest.
Hilarious!

I would advise you to take your own advice, but we both know you won't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
do here. You browse through his writings and pretend he wrote something
differently than what he actually wrote.
I upload GIFs or JPGs of what he wrote since I know that you do not have
the HSCA volumes.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
If only you would take the time to comprehend the things you post, you
wouldn't make so many misstatements of fact.
Tony ignored, of course. He doesn't understand that he doesn't understand
what he doesn't understand.
Tony didn't understand this, so he didn't respond.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Here I marked he entrance and exit for you.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angelray.gif
That doesn't show any of your markings. Was this the one you meant to
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
What you marked as the entrance wound is actually the exit according to
your own Dr. Angel whom you now want to throw under the bus because he
refutes your conclusions. That hole is also not in the forehead, it is in
the frontal bone above the forehead.
Tony of course ignored this as well.
I never ignore you, but McAdams deletes my messsages to protect you.
Uh huh. And you didn't ignore Dr. Angel's expert conclusions and
substitute your own layman's opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
I made scans of the HSCA volume
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel3.gif
Now if you could only find someone to read them to you.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-16 17:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Hilarious. The damage is all on the right and top of the skull in the
drawing. The typewritten text doesn't seem to reference any damage to the
left side of the skull, can you quote that language that you allege is
referenced therein?
As I suspected, you can't tell your left from your right.
You asked me to show you what Angel said and I did.
But you couldn't understand it.
Hilarious. Quote the pertinent language of Angel, if you think he said
anything that conforms to your claim. Show that you're understanding it,
and I'm misunderstanding it. Establish that from the document you cited.

You don't get to simply assert I don't understand something and you do.
Establish that.

Hank
John Corbett
2020-09-16 02:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Hilarious. The damage is all on the right and top of the skull in the
drawing. The typewritten text doesn't seem to reference any damage to the
left side of the skull, can you quote that language that you allege is
referenced therein?
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.

In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.

In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.

Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.

This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-17 03:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Hilarious. The damage is all on the right and top of the skull in the
drawing. The typewritten text doesn't seem to reference any damage to the
left side of the skull, can you quote that language that you allege is
referenced therein?
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there? I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
John Corbett
2020-09-17 16:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
There's also your Ouija board and Magic 8-ball.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
Why do you need me to show you. Angel showed it came from the upper third
of the right parietal bone. Now I know you've never looked at the web
pages you pose links to.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Yes.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
I just did.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there?
Amazing you can't see the wound that is there but you can see a
non-existent wound in the forehead.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
There are a limited number of autopsy photos that have been leaked and the
ones available online are low quality digitized copies of copies.
Qualified professionals have seen the high quality originals and ALL OF
THEM agreed that the autopsy established that JFK was hit in the back of
the head and the bullet exited from the upper right side. Not a single
qualified professional who has seen the original autopsy photos and x-rays
has said there was an entrance wound in the front of JFK's head. Only
unqualified people such as yourself promote that nonsense.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-18 20:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
There's also your Ouija board and Magic 8-ball.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
Why do you need me to show you. Angel showed it came from the upper third
of the right parietal bone. Now I know you've never looked at the web
pages you pose links to.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Yes.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
I just did.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there?
Amazing you can't see the wound that is there but you can see a
non-existent wound in the forehead.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
There are a limited number of autopsy photos that have been leaked and the
ones available online are low quality digitized copies of copies.
That YOU know of, because you are a WC defender. I have seen many more.
Post by John Corbett
Qualified professionals have seen the high quality originals and ALL OF
THEM agreed that the autopsy established that JFK was hit in the back of
No. You can't show me a bullet wound in the back of the head.
Post by John Corbett
the head and the bullet exited from the upper right side. Not a single
qualified professional who has seen the original autopsy photos and x-rays
has said there was an entrance wound in the front of JFK's head. Only
unqualified people such as yourself promote that nonsense.
Good, because I'm not part of the cover-up.
John Corbett
2020-09-19 01:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
There's also your Ouija board and Magic 8-ball.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
Why do you need me to show you. Angel showed it came from the upper third
of the right parietal bone. Now I know you've never looked at the web
pages you pose links to.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Yes.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
I just did.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there?
Amazing you can't see the wound that is there but you can see a
non-existent wound in the forehead.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
There are a limited number of autopsy photos that have been leaked and the
ones available online are low quality digitized copies of copies.
That YOU know of, because you are a WC defender. I have seen many more.
Total bullshit. What photos have you seen which haven't been leaked to the
public at large? Where do you get them. You are just making up crap again.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Qualified professionals have seen the high quality originals and ALL OF
THEM agreed that the autopsy established that JFK was hit in the back of
No. You can't show me a bullet wound in the back of the head.
There is no need for me to show anything because qualified people have
looked at all the autopsy materials and every one of them has concluded
that a bullet entered the back of JFK's head. Why should anyone care what
you think?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
the head and the bullet exited from the upper right side. Not a single
qualified professional who has seen the original autopsy photos and x-rays
has said there was an entrance wound in the front of JFK's head. Only
unqualified people such as yourself promote that nonsense.
Good, because I'm not part of the cover-up.
You're just somebody who doesn't know what he is talking about and
pretends he does.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-20 17:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
There's also your Ouija board and Magic 8-ball.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
Why do you need me to show you. Angel showed it came from the upper third
of the right parietal bone. Now I know you've never looked at the web
pages you pose links to.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Yes.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
I just did.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there?
Amazing you can't see the wound that is there but you can see a
non-existent wound in the forehead.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
There are a limited number of autopsy photos that have been leaked and the
ones available online are low quality digitized copies of copies.
That YOU know of, because you are a WC defender. I have seen many more.
Post by John Corbett
Qualified professionals have seen the high quality originals and ALL OF
THEM agreed that the autopsy established that JFK was hit in the back of
No. You can't show me a bullet wound in the back of the head.
Post by John Corbett
the head and the bullet exited from the upper right side. Not a single
qualified professional who has seen the original autopsy photos and x-rays
has said there was an entrance wound in the front of JFK's head. Only
unqualified people such as yourself promote that nonsense.
Good, because I'm not part of the cover-up.
When you defend the WC you are.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-21 13:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
There's also your Ouija board and Magic 8-ball.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
Why do you need me to show you. Angel showed it came from the upper third
of the right parietal bone. Now I know you've never looked at the web
pages you pose links to.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Yes.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
I just did.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there?
Amazing you can't see the wound that is there but you can see a
non-existent wound in the forehead.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
There are a limited number of autopsy photos that have been leaked and the
ones available online are low quality digitized copies of copies.
That YOU know of, because you are a WC defender. I have seen many more.
Post by John Corbett
Qualified professionals have seen the high quality originals and ALL OF
THEM agreed that the autopsy established that JFK was hit in the back of
No. You can't show me a bullet wound in the back of the head.
Post by John Corbett
the head and the bullet exited from the upper right side. Not a single
qualified professional who has seen the original autopsy photos and x-rays
has said there was an entrance wound in the front of JFK's head. Only
unqualified people such as yourself promote that nonsense.
Good, because I'm not part of the cover-up.
When you defend the WC you are.
Another unevidenced assertion by you.

Why am I not surprised?

Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-17 20:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Hilarious. The damage is all on the right and top of the skull in the
drawing. The typewritten text doesn't seem to reference any damage to the
left side of the skull, can you quote that language that you allege is
referenced therein?
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
The HSCA illustrated that. Are you not familiar with the Ida Dox drawings?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Your question is unclear, perhaps deliberately so.

The Zapruder film is two-dimension, not three-dimensional. There is a
large fragment - most likely the Harper fragment - that is ejected from
the President's head and makes three revolutions in frame 313 at about the
one-o' clock position relative to the President's head. That is forward of
the limo and the president and to the RIGHT of Zapruder's camera.

We cannot tell from the image whether it is traveling away from the camera
(to the left of the limo) or towards the camera (to the right of the
limo).
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
Do you still beat your wife? Both your question and the one I just asked
are great examples of loaded questions.

Loaded questions, by their nature, cannot be answered and don't deserve
an answer.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there? I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
Tony Marsh says there is no wound in the back of the President's head.

Critics almost universally argue for a large exit wound to the back of the
President's head.

They are wrong, according to Tony.

The three autopsy doctors, with the body in front of them, determined the
President had an entry wound in the back of the head.

They are wrong, according to Tony.

The HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel, with the extant autopsy materials to
examine, determined the President had an entry wound in the back of the
head.

They are wrong, according to Tony.

This is the same Tony Marsh who has no medical credentials whatsoever, and
has never conducted or even viewed an autopsy.

You can't make this stuff up!

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-18 20:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Hilarious. The damage is all on the right and top of the skull in the
drawing. The typewritten text doesn't seem to reference any damage to the
left side of the skull, can you quote that language that you allege is
referenced therein?
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
The HSCA illustrated that. Are you not familiar with the Ida Dox drawings?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Your question is unclear, perhaps deliberately so.
The Zapruder film is two-dimension, not three-dimensional. There is a
large fragment - most likely the Harper fragment - that is ejected from
the President's head and makes three revolutions in frame 313 at about the
one-o' clock position relative to the President's head. That is forward of
the limo and the president and to the RIGHT of Zapruder's camera.
We cannot tell from the image whether it is traveling away from the camera
(to the left of the limo) or towards the camera (to the right of the
limo).
ThAT is ridiculous. Anyone can see that it is flying AWAY from the left
side of his head. Where could it come from to be flying towards the head?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
Do you still beat your wife? Both your question and the one I just asked
are great examples of loaded questions.
Loaded questions, by their nature, cannot be answered and don't deserve
an answer.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there? I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
Tony Marsh says there is no wound in the back of the President's head.
Not what I said. No bullet wound. No entraance wound, Learn English.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Critics almost universally argue for a large exit wound to the back of the
President's head.
Some do and I tell them they are wrong. Like Groden's ridiculous mockup.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
They are wrong, according to Tony.
The three autopsy doctors, with the body in front of them, determined the
President had an entry wound in the back of the head.
And they all lied. Do you access the Rydberg drawing because Humes
supervised it? Yes or NO?

You keep ducking my questions.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
They are wrong, according to Tony.
The HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel, with the extant autopsy materials to
examine, determined the President had an entry wound in the back of the
head.
They did not agrree eith the autopsy doctors about WHERE the bullet
wound was. That should be a red flag for you right there, but you never
care.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
They are wrong, according to Tony.
This is the same Tony Marsh who has no medical credentials whatsoever, and
has never conducted or even viewed an autopsy.
You can't make this stuff up!
Hank
John Corbett
2020-09-19 11:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Hilarious. The damage is all on the right and top of the skull in the
drawing. The typewritten text doesn't seem to reference any damage to the
left side of the skull, can you quote that language that you allege is
referenced therein?
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
The HSCA illustrated that. Are you not familiar with the Ida Dox drawings?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Your question is unclear, perhaps deliberately so.
The Zapruder film is two-dimension, not three-dimensional. There is a
large fragment - most likely the Harper fragment - that is ejected from
the President's head and makes three revolutions in frame 313 at about the
one-o' clock position relative to the President's head. That is forward of
the limo and the president and to the RIGHT of Zapruder's camera.
We cannot tell from the image whether it is traveling away from the camera
(to the left of the limo) or towards the camera (to the right of the
limo).
ThAT is ridiculous. Anyone can see that it is flying AWAY from the left
side of his head. Where could it come from to be flying towards the head?
You simply claim what you can't prove.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
Do you still beat your wife? Both your question and the one I just asked
are great examples of loaded questions.
Loaded questions, by their nature, cannot be answered and don't deserve
an answer.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there? I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
Tony Marsh says there is no wound in the back of the President's head.
Not what I said. No bullet wound. No entraance wound, Learn English.
On one side of the scale, we have the opinion of every qualified
professional who has seen all the original autopsy materials and concluded
there was an entry wound in the back of the head. On the other side of the
scale we have the opinion of layman Tony Marsh who has seen a few low
grade copies of photos that were leaked and has concluded the entry wound
was in the forehead. So which way is that scale tipping?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Critics almost universally argue for a large exit wound to the back of the
President's head.
Some do and I tell them they are wrong. Like Groden's ridiculous mockup.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
They are wrong, according to Tony.
The three autopsy doctors, with the body in front of them, determined the
President had an entry wound in the back of the head.
And they all lied. Do you access the Rydberg drawing because Humes
supervised it? Yes or NO?
You keep ducking my questions.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
They are wrong, according to Tony.
The HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel, with the extant autopsy materials to
examine, determined the President had an entry wound in the back of the
head.
They did not agrree eith the autopsy doctors about WHERE the bullet
wound was. That should be a red flag for you right there, but you never
care.
Everyone said the entry was in the back of the head. No qualified person
has ever said it was in the forehead.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-20 04:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
Hilarious. The damage is all on the right and top of the skull in the
drawing. The typewritten text doesn't seem to reference any damage to the
left side of the skull, can you quote that language that you allege is
referenced therein?
Just for grins, I counted the number of times Angel used the words "right"
and "left" in Marsh's two exhibits. In Angel-2, I counted 15 right and 3
left. In Angel-3, it's 4 right and 1 left.
In two of the occurrences of "left", he is saying the damage to the skull
was more on the right than on the left.
In the other two, he is using "left" to describe how the Harper fragment
fits with the right parietal defect.
Nowhere does Angel describe a blowout in the left side of JFK's skull.
This is Marsh's evidence for a left side blowout. I wonder if he even
No. I do not base it on just one thing.
Show me where in the head you think the Harper fragment came from?
The HSCA illustrated that. Are you not familiar with the Ida Dox drawings?
Tony ignores that his question to me was redundant, and already
established back in 1978.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you agree that we see the Harper fragment flying away to the left in
Z-313? Yes or no?
Your question is unclear, perhaps deliberately so.
The Zapruder film is two-dimension, not three-dimensional. There is a
large fragment - most likely the Harper fragment - that is ejected from
the President's head and makes three revolutions in frame 313 at about the
one-o' clock position relative to the President's head. That is forward of
the limo and the president and to the RIGHT of Zapruder's camera.
We cannot tell from the image whether it is traveling away from the camera
(to the left of the limo) or towards the camera (to the right of the
limo).
ThAT is ridiculous. Anyone can see that it is flying AWAY from the left
side of his head.
It is flying away from the head, up and forward.

As the Zapruder frame image in question is two-dimensional, as I pointed
out and you ignored, we cannot determine from the image alone whether is
it flying away from the head at a right angle to Zapruder's line of sight,
flying away from the head at a greater than 90 degree angle to Zapruder's
line of sight (flying up, forward, and somewhat away from Zapruder), or
flying away from the head at a lessthan 90 degree angle to Zapruder's line
of sight (flying up, forward, and somewhat toward Zapruder). I said that.
How you determine the Harper fragment is moving away from the left side of
his head (as opposed to the top of the head, or the right side of the
head) is beyond me. I'd love to see your work in this regard, but of
course, you don't have any.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Where could it come from to be flying towards the head?
This is the LOGICAL FALLACY of a straw man argument. As you cannot rebut
the points I did make (and explained in greater detail above), you attack
an argument of your own devising, pretend I advanced the argument, and
then question that. But as I did not make the argument you attack, and you
did not attempt to rebut the argument I did advance, you still have some
work to do to rebut my argument. When do you intend to start?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Can you ever answer any question or are you too afraid that you might
accidentally tell the truth?
Do you still beat your wife? Both your question and the one I just asked
are great examples of loaded questions.
Loaded questions, by their nature, cannot be answered and don't deserve
an answer.
Tony of course ignore this.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
bothered to read it or just saw the few occurrences of "left" and decided
that fits with the BS story he is trying to peddle.
Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we can see for
ourselves that there is no wound there? I'll tell you why. Because they
hid the autopsy photos from the pblic and thought their cover-up eould
last forever. But it didn't and now anyone can see the autopsy photos if
they look for them.
Tony Marsh says there is no wound in the back of the President's head.
Not what I said. No bullet wound. No entraance wound, Learn English.
You said "Why did the WC show a wound to the back of JFK's head when we
can see for ourselves that there is no wound there?"

You alleged "we can see for ourselves there is no wound there" "to the
back of JFK's head".

That's the assertion imbedded in your question to me. Everyone can see
that assertion. You said it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Critics almost universally argue for a large exit wound to the back of the
President's head.
They are wrong, according to Tony.
Some do and I tell them they are wrong. Like Groden's ridiculous mockup.
So I got this right. I said you think the critics are wrong to "argue for
a large exit wound to the back of the President's head", and you said you
"tell them they are wrong".
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
The three autopsy doctors, with the body in front of them, determined the
President had an entry wound in the back of the head.
They are wrong, according to Tony.
And they all lied.
And this is another assertion by you without any evidence offered in
support. In addition, of course, you're discarding the expert opinion and
substituting your own. And of course, ultimately you're saying I got this
right, as you're agreeing with me. I said you think the autopsy doctors
were wrong to determine there was an entry wound in the back of the head.
You just agreed, calling the autopsy doctors liars when they claimed to
make that determination.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you access the Rydberg drawing because Humes
supervised it? Yes or NO?
You keep ducking my questions.
This has nothing to do with the points I raised, and is an attempt by you
to invoke the LOGICAL FALLACY of a RED HERRING. That's where you change
the subject to something unrelated, in hopes that your inability to defend
your own claims will be forgotten. The Rydberg drawings (plural) were as
Humes testified, done without reference to any autopsy photos or
radiographs, where in part only schematic representations of the actual
wounds, relied only on Humes verbal description of the wound, were done
solely to illustrate the wounds which Humes said "tax satisfactory verbal
description". But you think this is a big deal, so you cannot resist
playing this card. It's a meaningless diversion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
The HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel, with the extant autopsy materials to
examine, determined the President had an entry wound in the back of the
head.
They are wrong, according to Tony.
Post by Anthony Marsh
They did not agrree eith the autopsy doctors about WHERE the bullet
wound was. That should be a red flag for you right there, but you never
care.
Both the autopsy doctors and the HSCA put the bullet entry wound in the
back of the President's head. You are on record as denying there is a
bullet wound (or any wound) there: "Why did the WC show a wound to the
back of JFK's head when we can see for ourselves that there is no wound
there?" In addition, of course, you argue for the left side of the head
wound that there is scant evidence for (a couple of references where the
witness confused left and right, like James Altgens on Elm Street):

== QUOTE ==

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from
behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he
was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the
time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright.
He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it
seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It
knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was
flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from
where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot
came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was
covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way
down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that
the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this
Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot
came from.

== UNQUOTE ==

Of course, the President's head was facing in Altgen's general direction
at the time of the head shot (Altgens was forward of the President) and
when he said "left" above, it was not the President's anatomical left, but
the left side relative to Altgens (Altgens "left side of the President's
head" was the President's anatomical right side). We know this is what
Altgens meant because he went on to say, elsewhere:

== QUOTE ==

I did notice after I got on this side of the street, that would be on the
opposite side of the Presidential car from where I was standing
originally, which would be the left side of the car ** from where I was
standing ** --looking up toward the building--I saw people looking out of
windows. I saw a couple of Negroes looking out of a window which I later
learned was the floor below where the gun--where the sniper's nest was
supposed to have been, but it didn't register on me at the time that they
were looking from an area that the bullet might have come from.

== UNQUOTE ==

So you can see he refers to the limousine in the same way he refers to the
President, relative to his own left, not the President's anatomical left,
and not the left side of the car as one would perceive it while riding in
it.

I quoted his observation of the men in the TSBD windows as a freebie
argument against Don Willis argument for Oswald firing from the fifth
floor.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
This is the same Tony Marsh who has no medical credentials whatsoever, and
has never conducted or even viewed an autopsy.
You can't make this stuff up!
And of course, Tony ignores this, because he has no medical credentials
whatsover, so his opinions are meaningless where he overrides the
conclusions of the medical professionals who performed the autopsy and the
medical professionals who examined the extant autopsy materials for the
HSCA .

In short, Tony has no standing to render a conclusion, yet that's all he
treats us to, his opinions.

And it apparently bothers him not at all that all the evidence AND all the
experts disagree with his opinions.

Hank
John Corbett
2020-09-15 02:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
Of course you have but you refuse to post if 1001 times. Funny how nobody on this newsgroup can remember the first 1000 times you posted it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
What you fail to appreciate is that is a view of the skull after the scalp
was peeled back. When the bullet hit the back of the head the entire skull
was shattered. The primary fracture lines radiated from the entry in the
rear. Concentric fracture lines formed perpendicular to those radiating
fracture lines leaving the skull in pieces. The pressure cavity formed in
the upper right hemisphere cause a massive blowout of the upper right side
of the skull. Some fragments were blown completely away while others
remained attached to the scalp forming flaps. At the same time the pieces
are the left side of the skull remained in place underneath the scalp.
When the scalp was peeled back, there was nothing to hold those left side
pieces of skull in place and that's why it appears to you that the left
side was blown out. It was not. The scalp on the left side of the head
remained intact and held the pieces of skull in place until it was peeled
back. There was no blow out of the left.

This is not something I determined because I am not qualified to make such
determinations. Neither are you but you pretend you are. This is how Dr.
Peter Cummings, a real expert in the fields of forensic pathology and
neuropathology explained it. He knows far more about these things than you
and me combined.

It is comical that you think you can look at one photo and make a better
determination of what happened than he has.

As for your Dr. Angel, you seem not to understand what he concluded
either. He said the bullet entered the back of the head and exited from
the front right. I am using layman's terms but that is essentially his
conclusion. Nowhere does he say there was a blowout on the left side of
the head. That is entirely your invention.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-16 02:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
Of course you have but you refuse to post if 1001 times. Funny how nobody on this newsgroup can remember the first 1000 times you posted it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
What you fail to appreciate is that is a view of the skull after the scalp
Balony. I alwys said rhat. Fox 8 is a photo of the skull.
Of curse the scalp has been pulled down. Otherwise how could we see the
skull?
Post by John Corbett
was peeled back. When the bullet hit the back of the head the entire skull
was shattered. The primary fracture lines radiated from the entry in the
But nost of it stayed together. As I said, it fell apart when they
unwrapped the head at autopsy.
Post by John Corbett
rear. Concentric fracture lines formed perpendicular to those radiating
fracture lines leaving the skull in pieces. The pressure cavity formed in
the upper right hemisphere cause a massive blowout of the upper right side
of the skull. Some fragments were blown completely away while others
Acording to you? What are your qualifications?
No skull bone is seen exiting the front ot the head in the Zaprduder film.
Post by John Corbett
remained attached to the scalp forming flaps. At the same time the pieces
The autopsy doctors said that the skull fell apart when they unrapped
the head. We can see one flap of skull still attached to the right
parietal bone.
Post by John Corbett
are the left side of the skull remained in place underneath the scalp.
No, in frame 313 we can see two pieces of skull exiting the left side of
the head. Maybe you've never seen the Zapruder frames,

Loading Image...
Post by John Corbett
When the scalp was peeled back, there was nothing to hold those left side
pieces of skull in place and that's why it appears to you that the left
side was blown out. It was not. The scalp on the left side of the head
No, if you think it fell onto the table then show it to me. I kow it flew
out ot the left side of the head when the bullet hit just before frame
313. I Have the Zapruder film, you don't.
Post by John Corbett
remained intact and held the pieces of skull in place until it was peeled
back. There was no blow out of the left.
Then what is that thing flying out of the head in frame 323? A UFO?
Post by John Corbett
This is not something I determined because I am not qualified to make such
determinations. Neither are you but you pretend you are. This is how Dr.
I am because I have the Zapruder film and you don't.
Post by John Corbett
Peter Cummings, a real expert in the fields of forensic pathology and
neuropathology explained it. He knows far more about these things than you
and me combined.
I have torn him to shreads. He can't help you now.
Post by John Corbett
It is comical that you think you can look at one photo and make a better
determination of what happened than he has.
I can and I have.
Post by John Corbett
As for your Dr. Angel, you seem not to understand what he concluded
either. He said the bullet entered the back of the head and exited from
the front right. I am using layman's terms but that is essentially his
conclusion. Nowhere does he say there was a blowout on the left side of
the head. That is entirely your invention.
He stuck with the HSCA dotors, but it don't work. His diagram did not
even match the official HSCA diagram.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-16 17:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
Of course you have but you refuse to post if 1001 times. Funny how nobody on this newsgroup can remember the first 1000 times you posted it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
What you fail to appreciate is that is a view of the skull after the scalp
Balony. I alwys said rhat. Fox 8 is a photo of the skull.
Of curse the scalp has been pulled down. Otherwise how could we see the
skull?
Post by John Corbett
was peeled back. When the bullet hit the back of the head the entire skull
was shattered. The primary fracture lines radiated from the entry in the
But nost of it stayed together. As I said, it fell apart when they
unwrapped the head at autopsy.
Post by John Corbett
rear. Concentric fracture lines formed perpendicular to those radiating
fracture lines leaving the skull in pieces. The pressure cavity formed in
the upper right hemisphere cause a massive blowout of the upper right side
of the skull. Some fragments were blown completely away while others
Acording to you? What are your qualifications?
No skull bone is seen exiting the front ot the head in the Zaprduder film.
Post by John Corbett
remained attached to the scalp forming flaps. At the same time the pieces
The autopsy doctors said that the skull fell apart when they unrapped
the head. We can see one flap of skull still attached to the right
parietal bone.
Post by John Corbett
are the left side of the skull remained in place underneath the scalp.
No, in frame 313 we can see two pieces of skull exiting the left side of
the head. Maybe you've never seen the Zapruder frames,
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/frags/z-frags.jpg
Post by John Corbett
When the scalp was peeled back, there was nothing to hold those left side
pieces of skull in place and that's why it appears to you that the left
side was blown out. It was not. The scalp on the left side of the head
No, if you think it fell onto the table then show it to me. I kow it flew
out ot the left side of the head when the bullet hit just before frame
313. I Have the Zapruder film, you don't.
Post by John Corbett
remained intact and held the pieces of skull in place until it was peeled
back. There was no blow out of the left.
Then what is that thing flying out of the head in frame 323? A UFO?
Post by John Corbett
This is not something I determined because I am not qualified to make such
determinations. Neither are you but you pretend you are. This is how Dr.
I am because I have the Zapruder film and you don't.
Post by John Corbett
Peter Cummings, a real expert in the fields of forensic pathology and
neuropathology explained it. He knows far more about these things than you
and me combined.
I have torn him to shreads. He can't help you now.
Post by John Corbett
It is comical that you think you can look at one photo and make a better
determination of what happened than he has.
I can and I have.
Post by John Corbett
As for your Dr. Angel, you seem not to understand what he concluded
either. He said the bullet entered the back of the head and exited from
the front right. I am using layman's terms but that is essentially his
conclusion. Nowhere does he say there was a blowout on the left side of
the head. That is entirely your invention.
He stuck with the HSCA dotors, but it don't work. His diagram did not
even match the official HSCA diagram.
Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter.

*In your opinion*, "He stuck with the HSCA dotors".
*In your opinion*, "...it don't work".
*In your opinion*, "His diagram did not even match the official HSCA
diagram".

But you're not qualified to render an opinion here. You're not a
recognized expert in the field. You've got no training in reading x-rays.
You've never attended medical school. You've never had any background in
the field of forensic pathology. You've never conducted even one autopsy.
Heck, I would wager you've never even seen one.

So what you do is quote Angel as support for your argument for a blowout
on the left side of the head, and when informed Angel reached no such
conclusion in the document you cited, you then tell us Angel didn't know
what he was talking about, his conclusion is invalid, and you know better!

Hilarious! What you're really citing is not Dr. Angel, but the gospel
according to Tony Marsh.

You also just admitted you have no evidence of damage to the left side of
the head.

You also assert, as an aside, but don't attempt to establish there is
something coming out of the left side of the head in the Zapruder film in
frame 323 ("Then what is that thing flying out of the head in frame 323? A
UFO?).

Those, sir, are the THREE (3!) logical fallacies of:
(1) Begging the Question,
(2) A False Dichotomy,
(3) and Shifting the Burden of Proof.

LOGICAL FALLACY #1 - Begging the Question:
Instead of establishing the Z-film shows something flying out of the left
side of head in frame 323, you simply imbed it in your question.

LOGICAL FALLACY #2 - False Dichotomy:
You offer the false dichotomy of "a UFO" or some "thing flying out of the
head in frame 323" as the only possible choices.

LOGICAL FALLACY #3 - Shifting the Burden of Proof:
Instead of citing the evidence for something flying out of the head in
Z-frame 323, you simply assert it, and expect others to prove it is not what
you assert. Nobody has the responsibility to disprove your assertions, you
have the responsibility to prove them. You cannot avoid that responsibility
by simply attempting to shift the burden of proof.

Here's Frame 323 of the Zapuder film:
Loading Image...

Where do see anything coming out of the head in that frame?

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-18 20:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
Of course you have but you refuse to post if 1001 times. Funny how nobody on this newsgroup can remember the first 1000 times you posted it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
What you fail to appreciate is that is a view of the skull after the scalp
Balony. I alwys said rhat. Fox 8 is a photo of the skull.
Of curse the scalp has been pulled down. Otherwise how could we see the
skull?
Post by John Corbett
was peeled back. When the bullet hit the back of the head the entire skull
was shattered. The primary fracture lines radiated from the entry in the
But nost of it stayed together. As I said, it fell apart when they
unwrapped the head at autopsy.
Post by John Corbett
rear. Concentric fracture lines formed perpendicular to those radiating
fracture lines leaving the skull in pieces. The pressure cavity formed in
the upper right hemisphere cause a massive blowout of the upper right side
of the skull. Some fragments were blown completely away while others
Acording to you? What are your qualifications?
No skull bone is seen exiting the front ot the head in the Zaprduder film.
Post by John Corbett
remained attached to the scalp forming flaps. At the same time the pieces
The autopsy doctors said that the skull fell apart when they unrapped
the head. We can see one flap of skull still attached to the right
parietal bone.
Post by John Corbett
are the left side of the skull remained in place underneath the scalp.
No, in frame 313 we can see two pieces of skull exiting the left side of
the head. Maybe you've never seen the Zapruder frames,
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/frags/z-frags.jpg
Post by John Corbett
When the scalp was peeled back, there was nothing to hold those left side
pieces of skull in place and that's why it appears to you that the left
side was blown out. It was not. The scalp on the left side of the head
No, if you think it fell onto the table then show it to me. I kow it flew
out ot the left side of the head when the bullet hit just before frame
313. I Have the Zapruder film, you don't.
Post by John Corbett
remained intact and held the pieces of skull in place until it was peeled
back. There was no blow out of the left.
Then what is that thing flying out of the head in frame 323? A UFO?
Post by John Corbett
This is not something I determined because I am not qualified to make such
determinations. Neither are you but you pretend you are. This is how Dr.
I am because I have the Zapruder film and you don't.
Post by John Corbett
Peter Cummings, a real expert in the fields of forensic pathology and
neuropathology explained it. He knows far more about these things than you
and me combined.
I have torn him to shreads. He can't help you now.
Post by John Corbett
It is comical that you think you can look at one photo and make a better
determination of what happened than he has.
I can and I have.
Post by John Corbett
As for your Dr. Angel, you seem not to understand what he concluded
either. He said the bullet entered the back of the head and exited from
the front right. I am using layman's terms but that is essentially his
conclusion. Nowhere does he say there was a blowout on the left side of
the head. That is entirely your invention.
He stuck with the HSCA dotors, but it don't work. His diagram did not
even match the official HSCA diagram.
Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter.
*In your opinion*, "He stuck with the HSCA dotors".
*In your opinion*, "...it don't work".
*In your opinion*, "His diagram did not even match the official HSCA
diagram".
But you're not qualified to render an opinion here. You're not a
recognized expert in the field. You've got no training in reading x-rays.
You've never attended medical school. You've never had any background in
the field of forensic pathology. You've never conducted even one autopsy.
Heck, I would wager you've never even seen one.
So what you do is quote Angel as support for your argument for a blowout
on the left side of the head, and when informed Angel reached no such
conclusion in the document you cited, you then tell us Angel didn't know
what he was talking about, his conclusion is invalid, and you know better!
Hilarious! What you're really citing is not Dr. Angel, but the gospel
according to Tony Marsh.
You also just admitted you have no evidence of damage to the left side of
the head.
You also assert, as an aside, but don't attempt to establish there is
something coming out of the left side of the head in the Zapruder film in
frame 323 ("Then what is that thing flying out of the head in frame 323? A
UFO?).
(1) Begging the Question,
(2) A False Dichotomy,
(3) and Shifting the Burden of Proof.
Instead of establishing the Z-film shows something flying out of the left
side of head in frame 323, you simply imbed it in your question.
You offer the false dichotomy of "a UFO" or some "thing flying out of the
head in frame 323" as the only possible choices.
Instead of citing the evidence for something flying out of the head in
Z-frame 323, you simply assert it, and expect others to prove it is not what
you assert. Nobody has the responsibility to disprove your assertions, you
have the responsibility to prove them. You cannot avoid that responsibility
by simply attempting to shift the burden of proof.
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z323.jpg
Where do see anything coming out of the head in that frame?
Hank
About 90% of your messages here are only personal attacks against me and
yet YOU are afraid to anwer my questions.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-19 19:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
Of course you have but you refuse to post if 1001 times. Funny how nobody on this newsgroup can remember the first 1000 times you posted it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
What you fail to appreciate is that is a view of the skull after the scalp
Balony. I alwys said rhat. Fox 8 is a photo of the skull.
Of curse the scalp has been pulled down. Otherwise how could we see the
skull?
Post by John Corbett
was peeled back. When the bullet hit the back of the head the entire skull
was shattered. The primary fracture lines radiated from the entry in the
But nost of it stayed together. As I said, it fell apart when they
unwrapped the head at autopsy.
Post by John Corbett
rear. Concentric fracture lines formed perpendicular to those radiating
fracture lines leaving the skull in pieces. The pressure cavity formed in
the upper right hemisphere cause a massive blowout of the upper right side
of the skull. Some fragments were blown completely away while others
Acording to you? What are your qualifications?
No skull bone is seen exiting the front ot the head in the Zaprduder film.
Post by John Corbett
remained attached to the scalp forming flaps. At the same time the pieces
The autopsy doctors said that the skull fell apart when they unrapped
the head. We can see one flap of skull still attached to the right
parietal bone.
Post by John Corbett
are the left side of the skull remained in place underneath the scalp.
No, in frame 313 we can see two pieces of skull exiting the left side of
the head. Maybe you've never seen the Zapruder frames,
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/frags/z-frags.jpg
Post by John Corbett
When the scalp was peeled back, there was nothing to hold those left side
pieces of skull in place and that's why it appears to you that the left
side was blown out. It was not. The scalp on the left side of the head
No, if you think it fell onto the table then show it to me. I kow it flew
out ot the left side of the head when the bullet hit just before frame
313. I Have the Zapruder film, you don't.
Post by John Corbett
remained intact and held the pieces of skull in place until it was peeled
back. There was no blow out of the left.
Then what is that thing flying out of the head in frame 323? A UFO?
Post by John Corbett
This is not something I determined because I am not qualified to make such
determinations. Neither are you but you pretend you are. This is how Dr.
I am because I have the Zapruder film and you don't.
Post by John Corbett
Peter Cummings, a real expert in the fields of forensic pathology and
neuropathology explained it. He knows far more about these things than you
and me combined.
I have torn him to shreads. He can't help you now.
Post by John Corbett
It is comical that you think you can look at one photo and make a better
determination of what happened than he has.
I can and I have.
Post by John Corbett
As for your Dr. Angel, you seem not to understand what he concluded
either. He said the bullet entered the back of the head and exited from
the front right. I am using layman's terms but that is essentially his
conclusion. Nowhere does he say there was a blowout on the left side of
the head. That is entirely your invention.
He stuck with the HSCA dotors, but it don't work. His diagram did not
even match the official HSCA diagram.
Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter.
*In your opinion*, "He stuck with the HSCA dotors".
*In your opinion*, "...it don't work".
*In your opinion*, "His diagram did not even match the official HSCA
diagram".
But you're not qualified to render an opinion here. You're not a
recognized expert in the field. You've got no training in reading x-rays.
You've never attended medical school. You've never had any background in
the field of forensic pathology. You've never conducted even one autopsy.
Heck, I would wager you've never even seen one.
So what you do is quote Angel as support for your argument for a blowout
on the left side of the head, and when informed Angel reached no such
conclusion in the document you cited, you then tell us Angel didn't know
what he was talking about, his conclusion is invalid, and you know better!
Hilarious! What you're really citing is not Dr. Angel, but the gospel
according to Tony Marsh.
You also just admitted you have no evidence of damage to the left side of
the head.
You also assert, as an aside, but don't attempt to establish there is
something coming out of the left side of the head in the Zapruder film in
frame 323 ("Then what is that thing flying out of the head in frame 323? A
UFO?).
(1) Begging the Question,
(2) A False Dichotomy,
(3) and Shifting the Burden of Proof.
Instead of establishing the Z-film shows something flying out of the left
side of head in frame 323, you simply imbed it in your question.
You offer the false dichotomy of "a UFO" or some "thing flying out of the
head in frame 323" as the only possible choices.
Instead of citing the evidence for something flying out of the head in
Z-frame 323, you simply assert it, and expect others to prove it is not what
you assert. Nobody has the responsibility to disprove your assertions, you
have the responsibility to prove them. You cannot avoid that responsibility
by simply attempting to shift the burden of proof.
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z323.jpg
Where do see anything coming out of the head in that frame?
Hank
About 90% of your messages here are only personal attacks against me and
yet YOU are afraid to anwer my questions.
Any unbiased person who reads our posts will disagree with you. I point
out the evidence that conflicts with your assertions, I point out you
never cite any evidence in favor of your assertions (you cited Dr.Angel's
hand-written report recently, but it turns out, you disagreed with his
conclusions!), I point out the logical fallacies you employ, and I point
out that you ignore a lot of the arguments I make entirely.

Attacking your assertions and exposing them as based on nothing in the
evidence is not a personal attack on you, and I'm surprised that you would
confuse attacking your assertions with a personal attack on you.

Your claim that 90% of my messages are personal attacks on you (of course,
you give no examples, cite no documentation for this claim, and just make
another another unfounded and unproven assertion), but none of my posts
are in that vein whatsoever.

Because I have the evidence on my side, I am more than content to cite the
evidence and let the evidence do the work of exposing your claims as
nonsense. Reasonable people will conclude the evidence conflicts with your
assertions.

Hank
John Corbett
2020-09-20 04:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Because I have the evidence on my side, I am more than content to cite the
evidence and let the evidence do the work of exposing your claims as
nonsense. Reasonable people will conclude the evidence conflicts with your
assertions.
Marsh reminds me of the street preachers that seem to pop up in most big
cities and even some smaller ones. They preach fire and brimstone and damn
passers by to hell. Most people simply walk by and ignore them. Some stop
and watch for a few seconds in amusement. Nobody takes these preachers
seriously. Nobody takes Marsh seriously.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-21 02:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Because I have the evidence on my side, I am more than content to cite the
evidence and let the evidence do the work of exposing your claims as
nonsense. Reasonable people will conclude the evidence conflicts with your
assertions.
Marsh reminds me of the street preachers that seem to pop up in most big
cities and even some smaller ones. They preach fire and brimstone and damn
passers by to hell. Most people simply walk by and ignore them. Some stop
and watch for a few seconds in amusement. Nobody takes these preachers
seriously. Nobody takes Marsh seriously.
I'm not sure what you mean. YOU were never part of the research community.
I have always been an active member and attended most conferences and
delivered my essays and put them online. If all you want to do is make
personal attacks, why don't you say something personal like you don't like
my beard.
John Corbett
2020-09-21 22:54:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Because I have the evidence on my side, I am more than content to cite the
evidence and let the evidence do the work of exposing your claims as
nonsense. Reasonable people will conclude the evidence conflicts with your
assertions.
Marsh reminds me of the street preachers that seem to pop up in most big
cities and even some smaller ones. They preach fire and brimstone and damn
passers by to hell. Most people simply walk by and ignore them. Some stop
and watch for a few seconds in amusement. Nobody takes these preachers
seriously. Nobody takes Marsh seriously.
I'm not sure what you mean. YOU were never part of the research community.
I have always been an active member and attended most conferences and
delivered my essays and put them online. If all you want to do is make
personal attacks, why don't you say something personal like you don't like
my beard.
Because I didn't know you had a beard.

John Corbett
2020-09-16 17:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
No. Idiots not researchers. You guys are always afraid of SCIENCE,
because it debunks your kooky theories.
Post by BOZ
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
Not true.
AND I have much more rhan the acoustics. I also have the medical
evidence. You have nothing.
Post by BOZ
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
How cruel.
Are you referring to the forensic evidence you have of the blowout of the
left side of JFK's head? That "evidence" only you have seen? Mark
I mean ALL the autopsy photographs which you have never seen.
I point out the area on some drawings. Have you seen Fox 8?
There is missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
According to what conspiracy theorist? You? Cite the evidence for your
claim.
Not acccording to anyone else. According to me.
So meaningless. You're not qualified to render an opinion here nor testify
in court about what Fox 8 shows to you. Quite simply, your opinion is
meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
According to Fox 8. Do you
have Fox 8? Yes or no?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8_orientation.jpg
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/f-8(n17).jpg
Sorry, you don't know how to read radiographs. Why don't you quote the
WTF are you talking about. I did not post a radiograph. I posted a
photograph. Do you understand the difference? Yes or no?
Yes, sorry. You're not qualified to render an opinion about the
photographs of the skull either. So a two-bagger for you -- not qualified
to render an opinion on photos or x-rays.
Congratulations.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
experts who reached the conclusion "There is missing parietal bone on the
left side of the skull." Surely you have something.
Surely you have NOTHING as usual.
The moment I quote anyone you will attack him as being a conspiracy kook.
Not if you show that person is an expert and qualified to render an
opinion.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Of course Tony ignored the fact he's not qualified to render an opinion on
anything he renders an opinion on. And quotes no experts about the
supposed missing parietal bone on the left side of the skull.
Well, I've posted it thousands of time, but you refuse to look
Of course you have but you refuse to post if 1001 times. Funny how nobody on this newsgroup can remember the first 1000 times you posted it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/angel3.gif
Dr. Lawrence Angel.
It shows a fragment which was blown of of the LEFT side of the head.
Maybe the problem is that you can't tell the left from the right.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Angel2.gif
What you fail to appreciate is that is a view of the skull after the scalp
Balony. I alwys said rhat. Fox 8 is a photo of the skull.
Of curse the scalp has been pulled down. Otherwise how could we see the
skull?
Post by John Corbett
was peeled back. When the bullet hit the back of the head the entire skull
was shattered. The primary fracture lines radiated from the entry in the
But nost of it stayed together. As I said, it fell apart when they
unwrapped the head at autopsy.
Post by John Corbett
rear. Concentric fracture lines formed perpendicular to those radiating
fracture lines leaving the skull in pieces. The pressure cavity formed in
the upper right hemisphere cause a massive blowout of the upper right side
of the skull. Some fragments were blown completely away while others
Acording to you? What are your qualifications?
About the same as yours but unlike you I don't pretend to be qualified to
dispute real experts like Dr. Cummings.
Post by Anthony Marsh
No skull bone is seen exiting the front ot the head in the Zaprduder film.
No shit.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
remained attached to the scalp forming flaps. At the same time the pieces
The autopsy doctors said that the skull fell apart when they unrapped
the head. We can see one flap of skull still attached to the right
parietal bone.
Post by John Corbett
are the left side of the skull remained in place underneath the scalp.
No, in frame 313 we can see two pieces of skull exiting the left side of
the head. Maybe you've never seen the Zapruder frames,
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/frags/z-frags.jpg
Just how did you determine that came from the left side of the head,
especially since the left side of the head is not visible.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
When the scalp was peeled back, there was nothing to hold those left side
pieces of skull in place and that's why it appears to you that the left
side was blown out. It was not. The scalp on the left side of the head
No, if you think it fell onto the table then show it to me.
Strawman. I never said anything fell onto the table.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I kow it flew
out ot the left side of the head when the bullet hit just before frame
313. I Have the Zapruder film, you don't.
This is a perfect example of what I find amusing from conspiracy hobbyists
such as yourself. Do you really think the rest of us don't have access to
the same copies of the Z-film that you do?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
remained intact and held the pieces of skull in place until it was peeled
back. There was no blow out of the left.
Then what is that thing flying out of the head in frame 323? A UFO?
Probably the Harper fragment which your own Dr. Angel said came from the
right parietal bone.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
This is not something I determined because I am not qualified to make such
determinations. Neither are you but you pretend you are. This is how Dr.
I am because I have the Zapruder film and you don't.
Post by John Corbett
Peter Cummings, a real expert in the fields of forensic pathology and
neuropathology explained it. He knows far more about these things than you
and me combined.
I have torn him to shreads. He can't help you now.
More amusing claims.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
It is comical that you think you can look at one photo and make a better
determination of what happened than he has.
I can and I have.
Sure you have. < snicker >

Earlier you asked what my qualifications were. What are your
qualifications?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
As for your Dr. Angel, you seem not to understand what he concluded
either. He said the bullet entered the back of the head and exited from
the front right. I am using layman's terms but that is essentially his
conclusion. Nowhere does he say there was a blowout on the left side of
the head. That is entirely your invention.
He stuck with the HSCA dotors, but it don't work. His diagram did not
even match the official HSCA diagram.
So which one do you think was more accurate. Whichever one you choose
refutes your claims.
John Corbett
2020-09-03 03:08:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy’s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet’s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine’schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy’s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured “magic bullet”
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1’ away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0’ away from the damage to the
front windshield’s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK’s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President’s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine’s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield’s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy’s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine’s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone’s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Do you realize that people think that the Dictabelt garbage is a joke?
Most conspiracy theorists reject the dictabelt crap. That's all you have.
It's like someone telling a kid that the Easter bunny does not exist.
He doesn't?
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-03 02:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy’s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet’s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine’schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy’s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured “magic bullet”
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1’ away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0’ away from the damage to the
front windshield’s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK’s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President’s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine’s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield’s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy’s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Tony gives another example of himself not understanding logical fallacies.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine’s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone’s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-04 00:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Tony gives another example of himself not understanding logical fallacies.
I was studying logical fallacies in Latin before you were born. What
college did you go to to study logical fallacies? Can you ever answer my
questions?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-04 11:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy???s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet???s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine???schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy???s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured ???magic bullet???
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1??? away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0??? away from the damage to the
front windshield???s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK???s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President???s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine???s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield???s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy???s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Tony gives another example of himself not understanding logical fallacies.
I was studying logical fallacies in Latin before you were born.
I believe it. You certainly do know and commit a lot of them. But in
Latin? That would make you about the age of the 2000 year old man - give
or take a few centuries.

It's curious that the only one you referenced in Latin - reductio ad
absurdum - isn't a logical fallacy at all but a methodology for exposing
logical fallacies. Unless, like racism, that's been redefined in the
recent past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
Post by Anthony Marsh
What
college did you go to to study logical fallacies? Can you ever answer my
questions?
Not the loaded ones, no. "When did you stop beating your wife?" Is an
example of a loaded question. You employ that type question quite
frequently when you attempt to debate anything here.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine???s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone???s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
BT George
2020-09-17 03:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
Post by Doctor W
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOZkhQR0lzUVh3OHc/view
A few of the Warren Commission-apologists also anxiously,
TRY to, contend their "theory" that the end-of-the-attack,
rapid-but-sounds-separated, very close together, last two loud
sounds that the actual Dealey Plaza attack witnesses, far
witnesses, close witnesses, and, weapons-experienced
witnesses detailed in a clear, large, substantial majority were
the two separate sounds of, first, President Kennedy’s head
being impacted, followed by, an audibly-distinguishable,
separate second sound of that now-fragmented bullet’s two-plus
parts going on to then near-simultaneously impact the limousine’schromed window frame and front windshield glass. . . .
That's not what I said. It's not close to what I said.
It's a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not what
you're prepared to rebut.
Post by Doctor W
.... BUT ....
. . . . here are the realities of the actual required minimum physics
of that commission-apologists presumed-but-incorrect "theory". . . .
.... The bullet streaked into President Kennedy’s head between
Zapruder frames 312 and 313, impacting it at approximately
1860 feet-per-second, and then was inside his head for
approximately 0.00038 of a second. While inside his head this
bullet broke apart into at least two major pieces (unlike the
nearly-pristine, minorly-deformed, same-manufactured “magic bullet”
that struck two bones that are both denser and thicker than the skull
shell bone). Then, those bullet pieces exited his head near his right
temple, with both now trajecting many tens-of-degrees more upward -
- as opposed to the original 1860 feet-per second, downward bullet path. . . .
. . . . At Zapruder frame 312, a Warren Commission-assumed head
wound bullet exit point was a measurable 7.1’ away from the damage
to the chromed window frame, and, 8.0’ away from the damage to the
front windshield’s inner glass surface. . . . After losing velocity inside JFK’s
head, if the two bullet fragments each exited the President’s head at 750feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.009 of a second and
0.011 of a second respectively to travel from JFK, then impact the
limousine’s chromed inside surface window frame and the windshield’s
inside surface glass.... 0.009 and 0.011 are far, far too little of a
micro-time segment to ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by
any human ear as a separate sound from the micro-second earlier loud,
explosive noise of the bullet impact/head transit (that was still on-going
as a noise) that President Kennedy’s head had just made according to all
witnesses who heard it. . . .
. . . . In other words, in reality, the head explosion and the bullet
fragments impacting the front windshield would have sounded exactly
like only one audible event, even in the revisionist failed-attempts of the
commission-apologists world.
It's STILL a straw man argument. Try addressing what I actually said, not
what you're prepared to rebut.
No, YOU are a straw man argument.
Tony gives another example of himself not understanding logical fallacies.
Sadly those most objectifying the very principles of logical fallacies are
the least likely to ever comprehend what they are.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Doctor W
(i.e.f. : with the bullet fragments exiting his head at an even slower 400
feet-per-second, it took the bullet fragments only 0.018 and 0.020 of a
second to impact the limousine’s chromed window frame and inner
windshield glass, which is, still, far too little of a micro-time segment to
ever be indistinguishable as separate noises by yours, mine, or anyone’s
human ear from the noises of the still-ongoing bullet impact and head
explosive noises)
c***@gmail.com
2020-09-03 14:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
It's explained in part by the Kappa effect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect

"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."

And the Tau effect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.

"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."

Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.

There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
John Corbett
2020-09-03 19:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.

I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-05 01:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.


Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993

As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount. Unless all four were hit by
bullets (a practical impossibility), their forward movement must be caused
by something else. The most likely cause is inertia due to the limousine
having suddenly slowed down. Dr. Luis Alvarez noted in his study [1] that
the average velocity of the limousine going down Elm Street sharply
decreased just before the head shot. Some researchers have theorized that
Secret Service agent Bill Greer jammed on the brakes or took his foot off
the accelerator. Whatever he did, the limousine very quickly changed from
an average velocity of about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH just before the head
shot. Obeying the law of inertia, passengers in the limo were thrust
forward in relation to their previous positions in the limousine. Further
evidence of this effect is the fact that the Connallys continued to move
forward while President Kennedy was being thrust backwards. I have not
done a similar analysis of previous Zapruder frames to pinpoint the start
of the occupants' forward movement, so I would urge others to do so
themselves, in order to verify my results and observations. Figure 1.





Z-frame rollbar Nellie Connally Jackie JFK
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
x/60" Z312 136 106 77 44 159
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 9 forward 5 forward 10 forward 6 forward 7
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z313 145 111 87 38 152
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z314 147 113 88 39 151
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 0 forward 4 forward 6 rearward 6
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z315 151 113 92 33 157
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 rearward 9
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z316 148 115 93 34 166
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 7 forward 4
rearward 11
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z317 150 117 100 30 177
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 5 forward 2 rearward 5
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z319 153 122 NA 28 182
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 0 forward 4 forward 3
rearward 14
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z320 153 126 130 25 196
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z321 157 NA NA 26 195


Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots. All times are measured in seconds
after the microphone became stuck open for several minutes. BBN found 4
shots on the tape, 3 of which came from the TSBD at 137.70, 139.27, and
145.61 respectively. The grassy knoll shot was found by Weiss and
Aschkenasy to be recorded at 144.90. There was a fifth set of impulses
which was rejected by HSCA as being a false alarm at 140.32. I have looked
at the waveforms more closely to try to determine when the muzzle blast of
each shot was recorded, to a greater degree of accuracy. My best estimate
for each shot is 137.702, 139.268, 140.339, 144.895, and 145.608. You can
get a general idea of the spacing between shots by subtracting one time
from another. But there is an additional variable which must be taken into
account. BBN found that the recorder used that day was running about 5%
slow, so all times must be multiplied by about 1.05 in order to restore
the original spacing. A more accurate correction factor might be borrowed
from the work which W&A did on the grassy knoll shot. They found that a
correction factor of 1.043 produced the best fit for echo delays compared
to their predicted model. Another possible corroboration for the 1.043
correction factor is the 'bell' sound found by BBN at 152.5. Although Todd
Vaughan believes that it is only electrical interference, if we can
determine its true frequency, we can derive the most accurate correction
factor. That holds true for many other sounds on the tape, such as car
horns, tire squeals, police sirens, etc. BBN found that the 'bell' sound
had a nominal pitch of 420 Hz. This is close to the note A, which is
usually 440 Hz. If the sound is really a bell, it might have been tuned to
A=440. We do not know for sure what type of bell it was. Most people have
assumed that it is a carillon bell, but it could be a train bell, a ship's
bell, or a victory bell on a college campus. There are a couple of other
possible tunings which would produce a correction factor close to 1.043.
If the bell had been tuned using a mean-tone temperament scale, it might
have a real pitch of 438.075 Hz. Dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.0430357. If the bell had been tuned to an old
English standard of A=438.9, dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.045. Applying the correction factor to the spacing
between shots as found by BBN will give us the true spacing between muzzle
blasts picked up by McLain's cycle. If we want to then translate those
into Zapruder frames, we must multiply each interval by 18.3 frames.
Figure 2 is a rough approximation of how many frames there were between
all 5 muzzle blasts.
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.



Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327

The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD. I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot. If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313. Photographic enhancement of the Zapruder film,
Muchmore film or the Bronson film might reveal that the windshield was not
cracked by Z-314. If that turns out to be true, then the last shot from
the TSBD must have missed JFK's head and hit the windshield. In turn, that
would mean that the fatal head shot came from the grassy knoll. I
seriously doubt that there is any photograph which would show exactly when
the rearview mirror was dented, but perhaps some as-yet-undiscovered
photograph would show when the chrome topping was dented. That dent could
only have been caused by a shot from behind the limo. If it was undented
at Z-314, that would prove that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version
or mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA
admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll
shot was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the
impulses to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is
indicated in brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The
jiggle analysis measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To
simply and clarify, I have put the groups into ascending order. The group
with the largest amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B',
etc. I have chosen the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are
usually midway between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran
at 18.3 frames per second on average.

Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data
Frames Group
158-159 D
191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not
227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.
290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before
313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.
331-332 A2

HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle
137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B
139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1
[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C
144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1
145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2


The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact
had heard the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would
not, in and of itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the
dent could have been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would
narrow the range during which the chrome topping was dented to between
Z-313 to Z-331 and make it more likely that the chrome topping was dented
at the same time that the windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier
as some have speculated.
On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the
statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the
grassy knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the
direct path of gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that
the head shot came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the
TSBD. Emmett Hudson, who was standing on the steps leading up to the
pergola, said that the shots sounded as if they came from behind him,
above his head and to his left. That would place the origin near the
fence. Zapruder felt that the head shot had come from behind him and
whistled past his right ear. Between these two witnesses and behind them
is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable shockwave at 24 ms.
before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot. Assuming the weapon was
aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough calculation of the velocity of
the bullet and the resultant angle of the shockwave. Although the
calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too difficult for me, a
rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet at about 1564.5
fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on either side
of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within the cone
of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.
How can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it
had been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have
been outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not
have been recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can
be found in the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he
was shown a very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the
viewpoint was looking right down the barrel of the gun. Given Mary
Moorman's position, the gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In
Moorman 2 we can see the head of a man peering over the fence, about 9
feet from the corner. Interestingly, this is the same spot where W&A
located the origin of the grassy knoll shot, unaware of the existence of
Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view of any weapon as we
might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever this man was, he
moved from that position very quickly after the head shot. There is no one
there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton photograph, taken
shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has never been
analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were unaware of
its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I found it
at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to properly
analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal the
presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher, Dale
Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a
person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.
Many witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films.
Some fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize
the danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the
grassy knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave
whizzing past them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe
their reactions was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can
see Hudson and his two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola.
They do not seem to be reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see
that two of the men are reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men
would not have reacted to the sound of a shockwave coming from so close
behind them. If the grassy knoll shot was the miss before the head shot,
we would expect to see these men react before the head shot. The fact that
they did not react until after the head shot would seem to indicate that
the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Based on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is
more likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Existing
evidence can and should be examined further. More information can be
gleaned from existing data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data
could provide new clues and allow us to verify certain methods, such as
the acoustical studies. I urge other researchers to look for new evidence
and perform new analyses.

------
1. W. Peter Trower, ed., "Discovering Alvarez", (Chicago: The University
Press, 1987), pp. 210-224. Also HSCA Vol. I, pp. 428-442.
2. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, p.80, footnote 16
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-05 18:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount.
Really?

I see something entirely different in a direct comparison of frames 312 and
313.
Loading Image...
Post by Anthony Marsh
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots.
Only if the acoustic studies are correct.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
The fact that the acoustic evidence doesn't match the rest of the evidence
should be a huge clue that the acoustic studies are wrong.
Post by Anthony Marsh
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
When you move the shots forward like that, and argue for a shot from the
knoll hitting JFK in the head, you wind up contradicting the other
evidence, such as the autopsy, which determined the shot that struck JFK
in his head was fired from behind. It also contradicts the hard evidence
of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon found in
the limo. Those large fragments most likely -- almost certainly -- came
from the head shot. And were fired from behind. You need to ignore or
question this evidence to argue for the legitimacy of the acoustic
evidence and a grassy knoll head shot.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD.
And either of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon
could have caused the dent in the mirror. Again, evidence of a shot from
behind hitting the head, not a shot from the knoll.

We can eliminate a shot missing the head entirely and striking the limo
because the damage to the chrome and the windshield would have been
greater.
Post by Anthony Marsh
I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot.
That makes no sense, unless the bullet fragmented before hitting the limo.
One shot moving rear to front cannot cause both the damage to the chrome
(inflicted from behind) and the damage to the windshield (also inflicted
from behind).

So if we argue that one shot did all that damage, as you do above, we must
accept the bullet that did that damage had fragmented by hitting something
prior to striking the limo. The only real choice is the President's head,
as nothing else in the limo suffered any bullet damage.

That's further evidence the acoustic evidence is wrong as you attempt to
match the head shot visible in the Zapruder film to the knoll shot from
the acoustic evidence, and that doesn't work.

You're trying to hammer the square peg of the bogus acoustic evidence into
the round hole of the Zapruder film and all the other evidence. The
consilience of this evidence points inexorably to one conclusion and one
conclusion only: all the shots were fired by Oswald from the
Depository.

Among the evidence I'm talking about is this, from many different
disciplines -- that mutually reinforce each other is:

- Eyewitness testimony that the only weapon seen firing that day was seen
in the Depository
- Descriptions of the gunman in terms that fit Oswald
- The three shells found at the window where numerous witnesses indicated
they saw a gunman
- The rifle found on the sixth floor
- the paper bag found at the sniper's nest bearing Oswald's print
- Oswald's print on a sniper's nest box, as if he sat on the box looking
out that window
- the fingerprints on the trigger guard of the weapon belonging to Oswald
- the two large fragments found in the limo that were traceable to Oswald's
weapon
- the autopsy results concluding JFK was hit from behind by only two shots.
- the HSCA forensic pathology panel concluding the same as the autopsists
- the damage to the windshield and the chrome which had to be inflicted by
separate fragments.
Post by Anthony Marsh
If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313.
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
Comparing the jiggle analysis to the acoustic evidence is fruitless.
Neither is scientific. They are both guesswork based on a heaping batch of
suppositions. The real evidence tells a different story. See the list
above.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place.
No, he said he thought it had a double sound, like the shot of the rifle
and then the sound of the bullet striking something hard, like the head.
Hill only heard two shots. He compared the sound to the sound of the
cartridge, not the bullet, being ejected from an automatic weapon and
hitting something metal.

== QUOTE ==

Mr. HILL. Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I
was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed
a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his
left.... The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were
standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the
sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal
place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the
head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.

== UNQUOTE ==

Hill said his best guess was the bullet hitting the skull caused the
second sound, but his analogy was of a empty cartridge being ejected from
an automatic and hitting something metal. That sounds almost exactly like
Hill could be describing the head shot and a copper fragment missing its
lead core hitting the chrome top.

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-07 01:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount.
Really?
I see something entirely different in a direct comparison of frames 312
and 313. https://www.jfk-online.com/Closeup_312-313.gif
Phony
So can you even admit the Jiggle anaysis?
Even a WC defender like Lattimer believed in it.
So do you know more than Lattimer?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots.
Only if the acoustic studies are correct.
I proved that they are. You can never admit any fact or your whole world
would collapse.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
I did. Did you?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Again, because the Second HSCA was preparing to rubberstamp the WC.
Look at their silly SBT, which they then had to place at frame 190.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
The fact that the acoustic evidence doesn't match the rest of the evidence
should be a huge clue that the acoustic studies are wrong.
No. just that you don't believe in Science.
My match works perfectly.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
Close enough for government work.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
When you move the shots forward like that, and argue for a shot from the
knoll hitting JFK in the head, you wind up contradicting the other
evidence, such as the autopsy, which determined the shot that struck JFK
No. I have no qualms about contradicting the HSCA.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
in his head was fired from behind. It also contradicts the hard evidence
of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon found in
You can't explain those fragments and neither could the HSCA. The WC
didn't even try. So how can you support the lies of the WC?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the limo. Those large fragments most likely -- almost certainly -- came
from the head shot. And were fired from behind. You need to ignore or
Maybe. SHow me. Diagram it.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
question this evidence to argue for the legitimacy of the acoustic
evidence and a grassy knoll head shot.
Well, I can ignore your speculation, but I do not ignore the evidence.
You ignore the rearview mirror.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
Sure, I hope no one said the head shot came before Altgens 1-6.
BFD.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD.
And either of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon
could have caused the dent in the mirror. Again, evidence of a shot from
behind hitting the head, not a shot from the knoll.
Maybe. Show me. How about a fragment from the Connally shot?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We can eliminate a shot missing the head entirely and striking the limo
because the damage to the chrome and the windshield would have been
greater.
Well, I certainly hope that we can rule out a direct hit.
What about Mark Furhman's theory? Any interest?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot.
I like that. Do you think it was a WCC jacketed bullet or a fragmenting
bullet?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That makes no sense, unless the bullet fragmented before hitting the limo.
One shot moving rear to front cannot cause both the damage to the chrome
(inflicted from behind) and the damage to the windshield (also inflicted
from behind).
Something like that. How about a bullet hitting the tree first and
fragmenting? Or Holland's theory about the traffic lght support bar?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
So if we argue that one shot did all that damage, as you do above, we must
accept the bullet that did that damage had fragmented by hitting something
prior to striking the limo. The only real choice is the President's head,
Not true. Connally's wrist could do it.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
as nothing else in the limo suffered any bullet damage.
Not that YOU are allowed to know about? It doesn't affect this shot, but
they did find a bullet hole in the floor.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That's further evidence the acoustic evidence is wrong as you attempt to
match the head shot visible in the Zapruder film to the knoll shot from
the acoustic evidence, and that doesn't work.
You did not point out any errors in my essay.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
You're trying to hammer the square peg of the bogus acoustic evidence into
the round hole of the Zapruder film and all the other evidence. The
Well, almost. But I do know that they modified the square hole into a
round hole. Do not start with the false assumption that the evidence is
perfect.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
consilience of this evidence points inexorably to one conclusion and one
conclusion only: all the shots were fired by Oswald from the
Depository.
You can't even prove that one shot was fired by Oswald. You only ASSuME
it.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Among the evidence I'm talking about is this, from many different
- Eyewitness testimony that the only weapon seen firing that day was seen
in the Depository
- Descriptions of the gunman in terms that fit Oswald
Wrong. Was Oswald black?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The three shells found at the window where numerous witnesses
indicated they saw a gunman
Nope. Never rely on witnesses.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The rifle found on the sixth floor
Could have been fired by someone else.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the paper bag found at the sniper's nest bearing Oswald's print
Why wasn't it photographed in place? The police tampered with the
evidence.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- Oswald's print on a sniper's nest box, as if he sat on the box looking
out that window
No. And he worked there. Show me his prints on the other boxes he
handled doing his job that morning.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the fingerprints on the trigger guard of the weapon belonging to Oswald
- the two large fragments found in the limo that were traceable to Oswald's
weapon
But you can't xaplain how they got there.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the autopsy results concluding JFK was hit from behind by only two shots.
Then why did they and the WC have to LIE about the wounds?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the HSCA forensic pathology panel concluding the same as the autopsists
- the damage to the windshield and the chrome which had to be inflicted by
separate fragments.
Not exactly. And they also did not try to exaplein the chrome topping
and the fragments.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313.
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
I never said it was asolute proof. I explained why it matches the head
shot from the grassy knoll better. Do yyou even dispute the HSCA's sue
of the jiggle analysis? Lattimer? You gonna call him names?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Comparing the jiggle analysis to the acoustic evidence is fruitless.
Neither is scientific. They are both guesswork based on a heaping batch of
They wer both SCIENCE. But you don't believe in Science. You'd rather
believe in a witnesss who said the shooter was black.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
suppositions. The real evidence tells a different story. See the list
above.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
Never rely on witnesses.
I don't rely on what Altgens said. I rely on his photos.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place.
No, he said he thought it had a double sound, like the shot of the rifle
and then the sound of the bullet striking something hard, like the head.
Hill only heard two shots. He compared the sound to the sound of the
cartridge, not the bullet, being ejected from an automatic weapon and
hitting something metal.
== QUOTE ==
Mr. HILL. Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I
was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed
a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his
left.... The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were
standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the
sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal
place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the
head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hill said his best guess was the bullet hitting the skull caused the
second sound, but his analogy was of a empty cartridge being ejected from
an automatic and hitting something metal. That sounds almost exactly like
Hill could be describing the head shot and a copper fragment missing its
lead core hitting the chrome top.
I like that better, please show me your diagram.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-13 01:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount.
Really?
I see something entirely different in a direct comparison of frames 312
and 313. https://www.jfk-online.com/Closeup_312-313.gif
Phony
Established where?
Post by Anthony Marsh
So can you even admit the Jiggle anaysis?
Even a WC defender like Lattimer believed in it.
So do you know more than Lattimer?
I am not bound by what every other "WC defender" believes.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots.
Only if the acoustic studies are correct.
I proved that they are. You can never admit any fact or your whole world
would collapse.
You're not qualified to prove anything of the sort.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
I did. Did you?
It's fruitless, because the acoustic 'evidence' is pseudo-science.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Again, because the Second HSCA was preparing to rubberstamp the WC.
Look at their silly SBT, which they then had to place at frame 190.
That's more evidence the acoustic 'evidence' isn't real. Thanks for
pointing that out.

Again, trying to match the supposed shots on the dictabelt to the Zapruder
film is a fruitless endeavor, and bound to fail.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
The fact that the acoustic evidence doesn't match the rest of the evidence
should be a huge clue that the acoustic studies are wrong.
No. just that you don't believe in Science.
My match works perfectly.
Except it contradicts all the other evidence. Like the ballistic evidence
of the two large fragments (determined to have been fired from Oswald's
weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world, and the
autopsy, which determined all the shots that struck the President came
from above and behind the level of the deceased, and the Zapruder film,
which shows a large explosion of brain matter out the right top of the
President's head, causing the Harper fragment to spiral upward and forward
of the President.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
Close enough for government work.
Hilarious, you're responding to yourself now.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
When you move the shots forward like that, and argue for a shot from the
knoll hitting JFK in the head, you wind up contradicting the other
evidence, such as the autopsy, which determined the shot that struck JFK
No. I have no qualms about contradicting the HSCA.
You're contradicting both the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel and the autopsy
doctors.
Your problem is you have no expertise to dispute their findings.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
in his head was fired from behind. It also contradicts the hard evidence
of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon found in
You can't explain those fragments and neither could the HSCA. The WC
didn't even try. So how can you support the lies of the WC?
I already explained this.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the limo. Those large fragments most likely -- almost certainly -- came
from the head shot. And were fired from behind. You need to ignore or
Maybe. SHow me. Diagram it.
See the autopsy report.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
question this evidence to argue for the legitimacy of the acoustic
evidence and a grassy knoll head shot.
Well, I can ignore your speculation, but I do not ignore the evidence.
You ignore the rearview mirror.
Asked and answered.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
Sure, I hope no one said the head shot came before Altgens 1-6.
BFD.
You're arguing with yourself again.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD.
And either of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon
could have caused the dent in the mirror. Again, evidence of a shot from
behind hitting the head, not a shot from the knoll.
Maybe. Show me. How about a fragment from the Connally shot?
There isn't enough metal missing from CE399 to have made that impact.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We can eliminate a shot missing the head entirely and striking the limo
because the damage to the chrome and the windshield would have been
greater.
Well, I certainly hope that we can rule out a direct hit.
Ok, that leaves only the head shot and the two large copper fragment found
in the limo, and those fragments were fired from Oswald's weapon to the
exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
Post by Anthony Marsh
What about Mark Furhman's theory? Any interest?
Explain it and argue for it. I'll tell you why you're wrong.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot.
I like that. Do you think it was a WCC jacketed bullet or a fragmenting
bullet?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That makes no sense, unless the bullet fragmented before hitting the limo.
One shot moving rear to front cannot cause both the damage to the chrome
(inflicted from behind) and the damage to the windshield (also inflicted
from behind).
Something like that.
Now you're agreeing with me.
Post by Anthony Marsh
How about a bullet hitting the tree first and
fragmenting? Or Holland's theory about the traffic lght support bar?
The tree and the light pole weren't between the President's head and the
weapon at the time of the head shot.

But if you want to make a case for either, go ahead and try. I don't have
to disprove every speculation and possibility you suggest.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
So if we argue that one shot did all that damage, as you do above, we must
accept the bullet that did that damage had fragmented by hitting something
prior to striking the limo. The only real choice is the President's head,
Not true. Connally's wrist could do it.
We'll await your evidence instead of just your bald speculation. As noted,
there doesn't appear to be enough metal missing from CE399 to have caused
the damage you contend was caused by a fragment.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
as nothing else in the limo suffered any bullet damage.
Not that YOU are allowed to know about? It doesn't affect this shot, but
they did find a bullet hole in the floor.
CITATION FOR THIS SUPPOSED FACT?
Go ahead cite for it. We'll wait.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That's further evidence the acoustic evidence is wrong as you attempt to
match the head shot visible in the Zapruder film to the knoll shot from
the acoustic evidence, and that doesn't work.
You did not point out any errors in my essay.
As you noted, the acoustic study and the Z-film do not match up. That's
evidence the acoustic study is wrong. Your attempt to match the head shot to
the supposed knoll shot contradicts the autopsy doctors conclusions as well
as the experts on the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
You're trying to hammer the square peg of the bogus acoustic evidence into
the round hole of the Zapruder film and all the other evidence. The
Well, almost. But I do know that they modified the square hole into a
round hole. Do not start with the false assumption that the evidence is
perfect.
Do not assert the evidence is falsified unless you're willing to establish
that.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
consilience of this evidence points inexorably to one conclusion and one
conclusion only: all the shots were fired by Oswald from the
Depository.
You can't even prove that one shot was fired by Oswald. You only ASSuME
it.
Asked and answered. All the evidence points to him.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Among the evidence I'm talking about is this, from many different
- Eyewitness testimony that the only weapon seen firing that day was seen
in the Depository
- Descriptions of the gunman in terms that fit Oswald
Wrong. Was Oswald black?
Asked and answered.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The three shells found at the window where numerous witnesses
indicated they saw a gunman
Nope. Never rely on witnesses.
Nope? Why? The witnesses agree with the hard evidence found in that
window. Either they are both right or they are both wrong. Make your case
for them both being wrong. I'll show why your arguments are nonsense.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The rifle found on the sixth floor
Could have been fired by someone else.
And Nicole Brown Simpson "might have" been killed by Columbian drug lords.
The problem with your theory, as with this one, is there's no evidence to
rule in that possibility. You don't get anyway by just assuming other
possibilities you have zero evidence for.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the paper bag found at the sniper's nest bearing Oswald's print
Why wasn't it photographed in place? The police tampered with the
evidence.
Asked and answered. A police trainee, on the job for about a month, picked
up the bag inadvertently. The correct procedure is to photograph it in
place, but once disturbed, it should NOT be placed back in the scene and
photographed.

They handled it correctly once it was advertently picked up. The fact you
cannot argue against this, but only ignore it, and bring up the same bogus
issue repeatedly, establishes you have no argument.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- Oswald's print on a sniper's nest box, as if he sat on the box looking
out that window
No. And he worked there.
He worked at that sniper's nest window? And sat on the box and put his
hand down at his side doing what, when? Remember the print was fresh, made
within the last 24 hours.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Show me his prints on the other boxes he
handled doing his job that morning.
Those don't establish anything.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the fingerprints on the trigger guard of the weapon belonging to Oswald
YOU IGNORED HIS PRINTS ON THE TRIGGER GUARD! Hilarious!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the two large fragments found in the limo that were traceable to Oswald's
weapon
But you can't xaplain how they got there.
Not true. Oswald fired his rifle, the bullet from that rifle struck the
President in the head and the lead core struck Tague. The two copper
fragments landed in the limo after striking the windowshield, the back of
the mirror, and the chome top.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the autopsy results concluding JFK was hit from behind by only two shots.
Then why did they and the WC have to LIE about the wounds?
Assertions are easy to make. Proving your asserting would actually take
some evidence. Evidence you don't have.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the HSCA forensic pathology panel concluding the same as the autopsists
YOU IGNORED THIS!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the damage to the windshield and the chrome which had to be inflicted by
separate fragments.
Not exactly.
Exactly. Both the damage to the chrome frame and the windshield were not
made by a whole bullet. Both were inflicted on the limo from behind. Both
came from fragments. And two large fragments were found in the limo.
Post by Anthony Marsh
And they also did not try to exaplein the chrome topping
and the fragments.
I just did.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313.
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
I never said it was asolute proof.
You're arguing with yourself again. You wrote "The jiggle analysis can not
be used as absolute proof of when a shot occurred, but it matches up
better for the head shot from the grassy knoll" as well as the rebuttal "I
never said it was asolute proof.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I explained why it matches the head
shot from the grassy knoll better.
But as I pointed out, it contradicts the other evidence, like the autopsy.
So you're left with discarding the autopsy findings and the findings of
the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do yyou even dispute the HSCA's sue
of the jiggle analysis? Lattimer? You gonna call him names?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Comparing the jiggle analysis to the acoustic evidence is fruitless.
Neither is scientific. They are both guesswork based on a heaping batch of
They wer both SCIENCE. But you don't believe in Science. You'd rather
believe in a witnesss who said the shooter was black.
Hilarious. When did I say I think Euins was right to call the shooter
black?

Stop making up stuff and creating straw men to rebut.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
suppositions. The real evidence tells a different story. See the list
above.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
I don't rely on what Altgens said. I rely on his photos.
Never rely on witnesses.
You're still arguing with yourself. You wrote "Could eyewitness testimony
help resolve the question of which shot hit what? Secret Service agent
Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last shot he heard sounded as though
it had hit some metal place." (That's from your own quoted article,
Tony!)

You then caution yourself to "Never rely on witnesses. "

Hilarious. And yet sad too, that you cannot even remember what you wrote.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place.
No, he said he thought it had a double sound, like the shot of the rifle
and then the sound of the bullet striking something hard, like the head.
Hill only heard two shots. He compared the sound to the sound of the
cartridge, not the bullet, being ejected from an automatic weapon and
hitting something metal.
== QUOTE ==
Mr. HILL. Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I
was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed
a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his
left.... The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were
standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the
sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal
place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the
head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hill said his best guess was the bullet hitting the skull caused the
second sound, but his analogy was of a empty cartridge being ejected from
an automatic and hitting something metal. That sounds almost exactly like
Hill could be describing the head shot and a copper fragment missing its
lead core hitting the chrome top.
I like that better, please show me your diagram.
You don't need a diagram to understand what I wrote. This is merely a
delaying tactic on your part.

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-14 03:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount.
Really?
I see something entirely different in a direct comparison of frames 312
and 313. https://www.jfk-online.com/Closeup_312-313.gif
Phony
Established where?
Post by Anthony Marsh
So can you even admit the Jiggle anaysis?
Even a WC defender like Lattimer believed in it.
So do you know more than Lattimer?
I am not bound by what every other "WC defender" believes.
So you are not allowed to admit any simple fact, like gravity if a
conspiracy believer believes in it?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots.
Only if the acoustic studies are correct.
I proved that they are. You can never admit any fact or your whole world
would collapse.
You're not qualified to prove anything of the sort.
Yes, I am. I verified the acoustical studies.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
I did. Did you?
It's fruitless, because the acoustic 'evidence' is pseudo-science.
So like Trump, if there is any fact you are afraid to admit, you call it
a hoax.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Again, because the Second HSCA was preparing to rubberstamp the WC.
Look at their silly SBT, which they then had to place at frame 190.
That's more evidence the acoustic 'evidence' isn't real. Thanks for
pointing that out.
Again, trying to match the supposed shots on the dictabelt to the Zapruder
film is a fruitless endeavor, and bound to fail.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
The fact that the acoustic evidence doesn't match the rest of the evidence
should be a huge clue that the acoustic studies are wrong.
No. just that you don't believe in Science.
My match works perfectly.
Except it contradicts all the other evidence. Like the ballistic evidence
of the two large fragments (determined to have been fired from Oswald's
weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world, and the
autopsy, which determined all the shots that struck the President came
from above and behind the level of the deceased, and the Zapruder film,
which shows a large explosion of brain matter out the right top of the
President's head, causing the Harper fragment to spiral upward and forward
of the President.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
Close enough for government work.
Hilarious, you're responding to yourself now.
No. Follow the arrows.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
When you move the shots forward like that, and argue for a shot from the
knoll hitting JFK in the head, you wind up contradicting the other
evidence, such as the autopsy, which determined the shot that struck JFK
No. I have no qualms about contradicting the HSCA.
You're contradicting both the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel and the autopsy
doctors.
Yeah, so what? As I said before, the Second HSCA was going to
rubberstamp the WC.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your problem is you have no expertise to dispute their findings.
Yes, I do. years of actual research, unlike you.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
in his head was fired from behind. It also contradicts the hard evidence
of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon found in
You can't explain those fragments and neither could the HSCA. The WC
didn't even try. So how can you support the lies of the WC?
I already explained this.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the limo. Those large fragments most likely -- almost certainly -- came
from the head shot. And were fired from behind. You need to ignore or
Maybe. SHow me. Diagram it.
See the autopsy report.
Lies. Show me a bullet hole in the back of his head.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
question this evidence to argue for the legitimacy of the acoustic
evidence and a grassy knoll head shot.
Well, I can ignore your speculation, but I do not ignore the evidence.
You ignore the rearview mirror.
Asked and answered.
What hit it? Prove it.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
Sure, I hope no one said the head shot came before Altgens 1-6.
BFD.
You're arguing with yourself again.
No. Follow the arrows.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD.
And either of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon
could have caused the dent in the mirror. Again, evidence of a shot from
behind hitting the head, not a shot from the knoll.
Maybe. Show me. How about a fragment from the Connally shot?
There isn't enough metal missing from CE399 to have made that impact.
I did not say that CE 399 hit Connally. You are ASSuMING what you can't
prove.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We can eliminate a shot missing the head entirely and striking the limo
because the damage to the chrome and the windshield would have been
greater.
Well, I certainly hope that we can rule out a direct hit.
Ok, that leaves only the head shot and the two large copper fragment found
in the limo, and those fragments were fired from Oswald's weapon to the
exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
Again, you are naking false ASSuMPIONS. What about the missing lead core
from the base fragment? Where did that go?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
What about Mark Furhman's theory? Any interest?
Explain it and argue for it. I'll tell you why you're wrong.
I am not arguing for it. You seem to think your only job here is to prove
everything I say wrong. And you haven't even done your homework. Learn to
Google.

This is HIS theory that a bullet went through JFK and missed Connally and
then hit the chrome topping. Attack HIM, not me.

Loading Image...
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot.
I like that. Do you think it was a WCC jacketed bullet or a fragmenting
bullet?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That makes no sense, unless the bullet fragmented before hitting the limo.
One shot moving rear to front cannot cause both the damage to the chrome
(inflicted from behind) and the damage to the windshield (also inflicted
from behind).
Something like that.
Now you're agreeing with me.
No, making fun of you.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
How about a bullet hitting the tree first and
fragmenting? Or Holland's theory about the traffic lght support bar?
The tree and the light pole weren't between the President's head and the
weapon at the time of the head shot.
Well, try harder then. Be a Holland.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
But if you want to make a case for either, go ahead and try. I don't have
to disprove every speculation and possibility you suggest.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
So if we argue that one shot did all that damage, as you do above, we must
accept the bullet that did that damage had fragmented by hitting something
prior to striking the limo. The only real choice is the President's head,
Not true. Connally's wrist could do it.
We'll await your evidence instead of just your bald speculation. As noted,
there doesn't appear to be enough metal missing from CE399 to have caused
the damage you contend was caused by a fragment.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
as nothing else in the limo suffered any bullet damage.
Not that YOU are allowed to know about? It doesn't affect this shot, but
they did find a bullet hole in the floor.
CITATION FOR THIS SUPPOSED FACT?
US news and World Report.
I've only posted this about 100 times so you probably overlooked it.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57753&relPageId=25
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Go ahead cite for it. We'll wait.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That's further evidence the acoustic evidence is wrong as you attempt to
match the head shot visible in the Zapruder film to the knoll shot from
the acoustic evidence, and that doesn't work.
You did not point out any errors in my essay.
As you noted, the acoustic study and the Z-film do not match up. That's
evidence the acoustic study is wrong. Your attempt to match the head shot to
the supposed knoll shot contradicts the autopsy doctors conclusions as well
as the experts on the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
You're trying to hammer the square peg of the bogus acoustic evidence into
the round hole of the Zapruder film and all the other evidence. The
Well, almost. But I do know that they modified the square hole into a
round hole. Do not start with the false assumption that the evidence is
perfect.
Do not assert the evidence is falsified unless you're willing to establish
that.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
consilience of this evidence points inexorably to one conclusion and one
conclusion only: all the shots were fired by Oswald from the
Depository.
You can't even prove that one shot was fired by Oswald. You only ASSuME
it.
Asked and answered. All the evidence points to him.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Among the evidence I'm talking about is this, from many different
- Eyewitness testimony that the only weapon seen firing that day was seen
in the Depository
- Descriptions of the gunman in terms that fit Oswald
Wrong. Was Oswald black?
Asked and answered.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The three shells found at the window where numerous witnesses
indicated they saw a gunman
Nope. Never rely on witnesses.
Nope? Why? The witnesses agree with the hard evidence found in that
window. Either they are both right or they are both wrong. Make your case
for them both being wrong. I'll show why your arguments are nonsense.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The rifle found on the sixth floor
Could have been fired by someone else.
And Nicole Brown Simpson "might have" been killed by Columbian drug lords.
The problem with your theory, as with this one, is there's no evidence to
rule in that possibility. You don't get anyway by just assuming other
possibilities you have zero evidence for.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the paper bag found at the sniper's nest bearing Oswald's print
Why wasn't it photographed in place? The police tampered with the
evidence.
Asked and answered. A police trainee, on the job for about a month, picked
up the bag inadvertently. The correct procedure is to photograph it in
place, but once disturbed, it should NOT be placed back in the scene and
photographed.
They handled it correctly once it was advertently picked up. The fact you
cannot argue against this, but only ignore it, and bring up the same bogus
issue repeatedly, establishes you have no argument.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- Oswald's print on a sniper's nest box, as if he sat on the box looking
out that window
No. And he worked there.
He worked at that sniper's nest window? And sat on the box and put his
hand down at his side doing what, when? Remember the print was fresh, made
within the last 24 hours.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Show me his prints on the other boxes he
handled doing his job that morning.
Those don't establish anything.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the fingerprints on the trigger guard of the weapon belonging to Oswald
YOU IGNORED HIS PRINTS ON THE TRIGGER GUARD! Hilarious!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the two large fragments found in the limo that were traceable to Oswald's
weapon
But you can't xaplain how they got there.
Not true. Oswald fired his rifle, the bullet from that rifle struck the
President in the head and the lead core struck Tague. The two copper
fragments landed in the limo after striking the windowshield, the back of
the mirror, and the chome top.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the autopsy results concluding JFK was hit from behind by only two shots.
Then why did they and the WC have to LIE about the wounds?
Assertions are easy to make. Proving your asserting would actually take
some evidence. Evidence you don't have.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the HSCA forensic pathology panel concluding the same as the autopsists
YOU IGNORED THIS!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the damage to the windshield and the chrome which had to be inflicted by
separate fragments.
Not exactly.
Exactly. Both the damage to the chrome frame and the windshield were not
made by a whole bullet. Both were inflicted on the limo from behind. Both
came from fragments. And two large fragments were found in the limo.
Post by Anthony Marsh
And they also did not try to exaplein the chrome topping
and the fragments.
I just did.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313.
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
I never said it was asolute proof.
You're arguing with yourself again. You wrote "The jiggle analysis can not
be used as absolute proof of when a shot occurred, but it matches up
better for the head shot from the grassy knoll" as well as the rebuttal "I
never said it was asolute proof.".
Post by Anthony Marsh
I explained why it matches the head
shot from the grassy knoll better.
But as I pointed out, it contradicts the other evidence, like the autopsy.
So you're left with discarding the autopsy findings and the findings of
the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do yyou even dispute the HSCA's sue
of the jiggle analysis? Lattimer? You gonna call him names?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Comparing the jiggle analysis to the acoustic evidence is fruitless.
Neither is scientific. They are both guesswork based on a heaping batch of
They wer both SCIENCE. But you don't believe in Science. You'd rather
believe in a witnesss who said the shooter was black.
Hilarious. When did I say I think Euins was right to call the shooter
black?
Stop making up stuff and creating straw men to rebut.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
suppositions. The real evidence tells a different story. See the list
above.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
I don't rely on what Altgens said. I rely on his photos.
Never rely on witnesses.
You're still arguing with yourself. You wrote "Could eyewitness testimony
help resolve the question of which shot hit what? Secret Service agent
Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last shot he heard sounded as though
it had hit some metal place." (That's from your own quoted article,
Tony!)
You then caution yourself to "Never rely on witnesses. "
Hilarious. And yet sad too, that you cannot even remember what you wrote.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place.
No, he said he thought it had a double sound, like the shot of the rifle
and then the sound of the bullet striking something hard, like the head.
Hill only heard two shots. He compared the sound to the sound of the
cartridge, not the bullet, being ejected from an automatic weapon and
hitting something metal.
== QUOTE ==
Mr. HILL. Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I
was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed
a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his
left.... The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were
standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the
sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal
place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the
head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hill said his best guess was the bullet hitting the skull caused the
second sound, but his analogy was of a empty cartridge being ejected from
an automatic and hitting something metal. That sounds almost exactly like
Hill could be describing the head shot and a copper fragment missing its
lead core hitting the chrome top.
I like that better, please show me your diagram.
You don't need a diagram to understand what I wrote. This is merely a
delaying tactic on your part.
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-15 02:39:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount.
Really?
I see something entirely different in a direct comparison of frames 312
and 313. https://www.jfk-online.com/Closeup_312-313.gif
Phony
Established where?
Post by Anthony Marsh
So can you even admit the Jiggle anaysis?
Even a WC defender like Lattimer believed in it.
So do you know more than Lattimer?
I am not bound by what every other "WC defender" believes.
So you are not allowed to admit any simple fact, like gravity if a
conspiracy believer believes in it?
Begging the question... you haven't established the jiggle analysis is
"simple fact, like gravity", you're just asserting it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots.
Only if the acoustic studies are correct.
I proved that they are. You can never admit any fact or your whole world
would collapse.
You're not qualified to prove anything of the sort.
Yes, I am. I verified the acoustical studies.
Other than you, who accepts you as a qualified expert on acoustics?
Have you testified in any court cases?
Are you recognized as an acoustic expert by other experts?
Have you written any peer reviewed articles on acoustics?
Do you belong to any recognized professional groups?

No? You're not qualified, regardless of your claims to the contrary.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
I did. Did you?
It's fruitless, because the acoustic 'evidence' is pseudo-science.
So like Trump, if there is any fact you are afraid to admit, you call it
a hoax.
Back to Begging the Question. You're asserting as a fact the acoustic
study you like, despite the fact that other studies have shown it to be in
error and despite the fact that it contradicts much of the other evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Again, because the Second HSCA was preparing to rubberstamp the WC.
Look at their silly SBT, which they then had to place at frame 190.
That's more evidence the acoustic 'evidence' isn't real. Thanks for
pointing that out.
Again, trying to match the supposed shots on the dictabelt to the Zapruder
film is a fruitless endeavor, and bound to fail.
It's curious you ignored where you yourself pointed out one additional
instance where the acoustic study didn't match the Z-film.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
The fact that the acoustic evidence doesn't match the rest of the evidence
should be a huge clue that the acoustic studies are wrong.
No. just that you don't believe in Science.
My match works perfectly.
Except for all the evidence you ignore, like the fact that JFK was struck
in the head from behind.
What conspiracy theorists define as 'working perfectly': Ignore everything
you don't like.
I already posted it. Let me put quotes around it.

== QUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Except it contradicts all the other evidence. Like the ballistic evidence
of the two large fragments (determined to have been fired from Oswald's
weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world, and the
autopsy, which determined all the shots that struck the President came
from above and behind the level of the deceased, and the Zapruder film,
which shows a large explosion of brain matter out the right top of the
President's head, causing the Harper fragment to spiral upward and forward
of the President.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
Close enough for government work.
Hilarious, you're responding to yourself now.
No. Follow the arrows.
Sorry, denying the truth won't help you.
You wrote (in your original article:
== QUOTE ==
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony.
== QUOTE ==

You then responded to that with "Close enough for Government work."
Both those comments are yours. You're arguing with yourself.

Your denials are meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
When you move the shots forward like that, and argue for a shot from the
knoll hitting JFK in the head, you wind up contradicting the other
evidence, such as the autopsy, which determined the shot that struck JFK
No. I have no qualms about contradicting the HSCA.
You're contradicting both the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel and the autopsy
doctors.
Yeah, so what? As I said before, the Second HSCA was going to
rubberstamp the WC.
Hilarious. So what? You have no expertise to contradict the medical
findings of the experts. Your claim that the HSCA was going to
rubber-stamp the Warren Commission findings is another allegation by you,
offered without evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your problem is you have no expertise to dispute their findings.
Yes, I do. years of actual research, unlike you.
No, you have no medical degree. You've never performed an autopsy or
participated in one. You have no education, no training, and no experience
in the field of forensic pathology. Your opinion here is worthless, Tony.
Nobody cares what you think, and nobody will write a book remembering your
contributions to the field of forensic pathology years from now.

That's "so what".
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
in his head was fired from behind. It also contradicts the hard evidence
of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon found in
You can't explain those fragments and neither could the HSCA. The WC
didn't even try. So how can you support the lies of the WC?
I already explained this.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the limo. Those large fragments most likely -- almost certainly -- came
from the head shot. And were fired from behind. You need to ignore or
Maybe. SHow me. Diagram it.
See the autopsy report.
Lies. Show me a bullet hole in the back of his head.
So now the autopsy report is lies? You determined that how? From your
vast experience in the field of forensic pathology, or because the autopsy
report contradicts your belief in a grassy knoll shot (as supposedly
recorded on the dictabelt), so it must be lies.

You're discarding the actual science for the pseudo-science. You don't
throw out the baby with the bathwater, as the saying goes, you throw out
the baby and keep the bath water.

HIlarious!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
question this evidence to argue for the legitimacy of the acoustic
evidence and a grassy knoll head shot.
Well, I can ignore your speculation, but I do not ignore the evidence.
You ignore the rearview mirror.
Asked and answered.
What hit it? Prove it.
Nobody can prove it.... high speed cameras that exposed hundreds of
thousands of frames per second weren't working in Dealey Plaza during the
assassination.

But either of the two large fragments found in the limo that were fired
from Oswald's rifle are the most likely candidates.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
Sure, I hope no one said the head shot came before Altgens 1-6.
BFD.
You're arguing with yourself again.
No. Follow the arrows.
No, you're arguing with yourself.

The phrase "Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots
as..."
Can be found in the article you posted. It's yours. The BFD is yours too.


You're arguing with yourself.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD.
And either of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon
could have caused the dent in the mirror. Again, evidence of a shot from
behind hitting the head, not a shot from the knoll.
Maybe. Show me. How about a fragment from the Connally shot?
There isn't enough metal missing from CE399 to have made that impact.
I did not say that CE 399 hit Connally. You are ASSuMING what you can't
prove.
And you're assuming more. You're assuming a massive conspiracy that
swapped out CE399 for the real bullet, or a massive conspiracy that
planted CE399 to be found by a porter in Parkland Hospital. CE399 bears
markings that establish it was fired from Oswald's rifle, and it was found
in the hospital where the victims were taken, and it was found nearby a
stretcher that Governor Connally had been first placed on, but on a
different floor that the Governor was never on. The assumption here is
that this is legitimate evidence, as it certainly appears to be.

You're assuming this massive conspiracy had the resources to track every
stretcher in the hospital and were smart enough to be able to get Oswald's
rifle in advance of the assassination, even though you've never
established how they knew where the rifle was, or even how they knew
Oswald owned a rifle, fire a bullet from it, capture the bullet relatively
undamaged, and then plant it on a floor removed from the Governor, a floor
the Governor was never on, near or on his stretcher. And then, perhaps,
swap it out for yet another bullet.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We can eliminate a shot missing the head entirely and striking the limo
because the damage to the chrome and the windshield would have been
greater.
Well, I certainly hope that we can rule out a direct hit.
Ok, that leaves only the head shot and the two large copper fragment found
in the limo, and those fragments were fired from Oswald's weapon to the
exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
Again, you are naking false ASSuMPIONS. What about the missing lead core
from the base fragment? Where did that go?
We both know the answer to that. There's a curb with a lead smear on it,
near where James Tague was struck.That's almost a straight line from
Oswald's rifle to JFK's head, to the curb.

And don't ask me to diagram it. Josiah Thompson did that in SIX SECONDS IN
DALLAS.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
What about Mark Furhman's theory? Any interest?
Explain it and argue for it. I'll tell you why you're wrong.
I am not arguing for it. You seem to think your only job here is to prove
everything I say wrong. And you haven't even done your homework. Learn to
Google.
Hilarious! You seem to think I need to rebut everything you suggest or
allude to. I don't. I'm more than satisfied just proving everything you
say is wrong.
Post by Anthony Marsh
This is HIS theory that a bullet went through JFK and missed Connally and
then hit the chrome topping. Attack HIM, not me.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/jfk-neck-transit02.png
He's not posting his theory here. If you think it's wrong, why bring it
up? For distraction purposes, to distract from the fact you cannot
establish your argument?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot.
I like that. Do you think it was a WCC jacketed bullet or a fragmenting
bullet?
You didn't argue to follow the arrows, but the phrase "I tend to feel that
all the damage to the limousine, consisting of the crack in the
windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome topping, was done by
the same shot." is from your article that you posted here. It's also your
response to that, "I like that. Do you think it was a WCC jacketed bullet
or a fragmenting bullet?"
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That makes no sense, unless the bullet fragmented before hitting the limo.
One shot moving rear to front cannot cause both the damage to the chrome
(inflicted from behind) and the damage to the windshield (also inflicted
from behind).
Something like that.
Now you're agreeing with me.
No, making fun of you.
Hilarious. It's your argument that all the damage to the limo was done by
one shot. I point out the damage had to caused by fragments, therefore, as
the damage was inflicted in different locations and all from behind, and
the most likely candidate for causing those fragments is a bullet strike
to the President's head. You think you're making fun of me by saying
"Something like that".
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
How about a bullet hitting the tree first and
fragmenting? Or Holland's theory about the traffic lght support bar?
The tree and the light pole weren't between the President's head and the
weapon at the time of the head shot.
Well, try harder then. Be a Holland.
This is your water to carry. I don't need to try harder. You do.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
But if you want to make a case for either, go ahead and try. I don't have
to disprove every speculation and possibility you suggest.
Please note what I pointed out above previously.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
So if we argue that one shot did all that damage, as you do above, we must
accept the bullet that did that damage had fragmented by hitting something
prior to striking the limo. The only real choice is the President's head,
Not true. Connally's wrist could do it.
We'll await your evidence instead of just your bald speculation. As noted,
there doesn't appear to be enough metal missing from CE399 to have caused
the damage you contend was caused by a fragment.
No evidence forthcoming. We might have guessed that would be the outcome.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
as nothing else in the limo suffered any bullet damage.
Not that YOU are allowed to know about? It doesn't affect this shot, but
they did find a bullet hole in the floor.
CITATION FOR THIS SUPPOSED FACT?
US news and World Report.
I've only posted this about 100 times so you probably overlooked it.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57753&relPageId=25
I've never seen the allegation before. You cite an FBI report written by
Belmont that says NO such bullet hole was found by the FBI, and that the
US News and World Report did not offer a source for the allegation. You
said "they did find a bullet hole in the floor". Who is "they" and where
is this established?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Go ahead cite for it. We'll wait.
We're still waiting.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That's further evidence the acoustic evidence is wrong as you attempt to
match the head shot visible in the Zapruder film to the knoll shot from
the acoustic evidence, and that doesn't work.
You did not point out any errors in my essay.
Only the ones you tried to explain away by claiming they were lies, like
your attempt to merge the Zapruder film with the supposed gunshots found
on the dictabelt had you denying the legitimacy of the ballistic evidence
and the autopsy. Surely you remember those errors. You then tried to claim
you were expert enough to overrule the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel,
which in aggregate had performed over 100,000 autopsies.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
As you noted, the acoustic study and the Z-film do not match up. That's
evidence the acoustic study is wrong. Your attempt to match the head shot to
the supposed knoll shot contradicts the autopsy doctors conclusions as well
as the experts on the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
You're trying to hammer the square peg of the bogus acoustic evidence into
the round hole of the Zapruder film and all the other evidence. The
Well, almost. But I do know that they modified the square hole into a
round hole. Do not start with the false assumption that the evidence is
perfect.
Do not assert the evidence is falsified unless you're willing to establish
that.
Of course, you ignored that admonishment and since have alleged the CE399
bullet isn't legitimate.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
consilience of this evidence points inexorably to one conclusion and one
conclusion only: all the shots were fired by Oswald from the
Depository.
You can't even prove that one shot was fired by Oswald. You only ASSuME
it.
Asked and answered. All the evidence points to him.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Among the evidence I'm talking about is this, from many different
- Eyewitness testimony that the only weapon seen firing that day was seen
in the Depository
- Descriptions of the gunman in terms that fit Oswald
Wrong. Was Oswald black?
Asked and answered.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The three shells found at the window where numerous witnesses
indicated they saw a gunman
Nope. Never rely on witnesses.
Nope? Why? The witnesses agree with the hard evidence found in that
window. Either they are both right or they are both wrong. Make your case
for them both being wrong. I'll show why your arguments are nonsense.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The rifle found on the sixth floor
Could have been fired by someone else.
And Nicole Brown Simpson "might have" been killed by Columbian drug lords.
The problem with your theory, as with this one, is there's no evidence to
rule in that possibility. You don't get anyway by just assuming other
possibilities you have zero evidence for.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the paper bag found at the sniper's nest bearing Oswald's print
Why wasn't it photographed in place? The police tampered with the
evidence.
Asked and answered. A police trainee, on the job for about a month, picked
up the bag inadvertently. The correct procedure is to photograph it in
place, but once disturbed, it should NOT be placed back in the scene and
photographed.
They handled it correctly once it was advertently picked up. The fact you
cannot argue against this, but only ignore it, and bring up the same bogus
issue repeatedly, establishes you have no argument.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- Oswald's print on a sniper's nest box, as if he sat on the box looking
out that window
No. And he worked there.
He worked at that sniper's nest window? And sat on the box and put his
hand down at his side doing what, when? Remember the print was fresh, made
within the last 24 hours.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Show me his prints on the other boxes he
handled doing his job that morning.
Those don't establish anything.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the fingerprints on the trigger guard of the weapon belonging to Oswald
YOU IGNORED HIS PRINTS ON THE TRIGGER GUARD! Hilarious!
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the two large fragments found in the limo that were traceable to Oswald's
weapon
But you can't xaplain how they got there.
Not true. Oswald fired his rifle, the bullet from that rifle struck the
President in the head and the lead core struck Tague. The two copper
fragments landed in the limo after striking the windowshield, the back of
the mirror, and the chome top.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the autopsy results concluding JFK was hit from behind by only two shots.
Then why did they and the WC have to LIE about the wounds?
Assertions are easy to make. Proving your asserting would actually take
some evidence. Evidence you don't have.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the HSCA forensic pathology panel concluding the same as the autopsists
YOU IGNORED THIS!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the damage to the windshield and the chrome which had to be inflicted by
separate fragments.
Not exactly.
Exactly. Both the damage to the chrome frame and the windshield were not
made by a whole bullet. Both were inflicted on the limo from behind. Both
came from fragments. And two large fragments were found in the limo.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And they also did not try to exaplein the chrome topping
and the fragments.
I just did.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313.
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
I never said it was asolute proof.
You're arguing with yourself again. You wrote "The jiggle analysis can not
be used as absolute proof of when a shot occurred, but it matches up
better for the head shot from the grassy knoll" as well as the rebuttal "I
never said it was asolute proof.".
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
I explained why it matches the head
shot from the grassy knoll better.
But as I pointed out, it contradicts the other evidence, like the autopsy.
So you're left with discarding the autopsy findings and the findings of
the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do yyou even dispute the HSCA's sue
of the jiggle analysis? Lattimer? You gonna call him names?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Comparing the jiggle analysis to the acoustic evidence is fruitless.
Neither is scientific. They are both guesswork based on a heaping batch of
They wer both SCIENCE. But you don't believe in Science. You'd rather
believe in a witnesss who said the shooter was black.
Hilarious. When did I say I think Euins was right to call the shooter
black?
Stop making up stuff and creating straw men to rebut.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
suppositions. The real evidence tells a different story. See the list
above.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
I don't rely on what Altgens said. I rely on his photos.
Never rely on witnesses.
You're still arguing with yourself. You wrote "Could eyewitness testimony
help resolve the question of which shot hit what? Secret Service agent
Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last shot he heard sounded as though
it had hit some metal place." (That's from your own quoted article,
Tony!)
You then caution yourself to "Never rely on witnesses. "
Hilarious. And yet sad too, that you cannot even remember what you wrote.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place.
No, he said he thought it had a double sound, like the shot of the rifle
and then the sound of the bullet striking something hard, like the head.
Hill only heard two shots. He compared the sound to the sound of the
cartridge, not the bullet, being ejected from an automatic weapon and
hitting something metal.
== QUOTE ==
Mr. HILL. Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I
was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed
a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his
left.... The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were
standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the
sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal
place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the
head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hill said his best guess was the bullet hitting the skull caused the
second sound, but his analogy was of a empty cartridge being ejected from
an automatic and hitting something metal. That sounds almost exactly like
Hill could be describing the head shot and a copper fragment missing its
lead core hitting the chrome top.
I like that better, please show me your diagram.
You don't need a diagram to understand what I wrote. This is merely a
delaying tactic on your part.
You ignored this as well.

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-17 03:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount.
Really?
I see something entirely different in a direct comparison of frames 312
and 313. https://www.jfk-online.com/Closeup_312-313.gif
Phony
Established where?
Post by Anthony Marsh
So can you even admit the Jiggle anaysis?
Even a WC defender like Lattimer believed in it.
So do you know more than Lattimer?
I am not bound by what every other "WC defender" believes.
So you are not allowed to admit any simple fact, like gravity if a
conspiracy believer believes in it?
Begging the question... you haven't established the jiggle analysis is
"simple fact, like gravity", you're just asserting it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots.
Only if the acoustic studies are correct.
I proved that they are. You can never admit any fact or your whole world
would collapse.
You're not qualified to prove anything of the sort.
Yes, I am. I verified the acoustical studies.
Other than you, who accepts you as a qualified expert on acoustics?
Don Thomas.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Have you testified in any court cases?
No.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Are you recognized as an acoustic expert by other experts?
Not by WC defenders. TThey deny everything.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Have you written any peer reviewed articles on acoustics?
The only chance I had was the article about the NAS.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Do you belong to any recognized professional groups?
Never.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
No? You're not qualified, regardless of your claims to the contrary.
I was the person who wrote the arricle about the NAS.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
I did. Did you?
It's fruitless, because the acoustic 'evidence' is pseudo-science.
So like Trump, if there is any fact you are afraid to admit, you call it
a hoax.
Back to Begging the Question. You're asserting as a fact the acoustic
study you like, despite the fact that other studies have shown it to be in
error and despite the fact that it contradicts much of the other evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Again, because the Second HSCA was preparing to rubberstamp the WC.
Look at their silly SBT, which they then had to place at frame 190.
That's more evidence the acoustic 'evidence' isn't real. Thanks for
pointing that out.
Again, trying to match the supposed shots on the dictabelt to the Zapruder
film is a fruitless endeavor, and bound to fail.
It's curious you ignored where you yourself pointed out one additional
instance where the acoustic study didn't match the Z-film.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
The fact that the acoustic evidence doesn't match the rest of the evidence
should be a huge clue that the acoustic studies are wrong.
No. just that you don't believe in Science.
My match works perfectly.
Except for all the evidence you ignore, like the fact that JFK was struck
in the head from behind.
What conspiracy theorists define as 'working perfectly': Ignore everything
you don't like.
I already posted it. Let me put quotes around it.
== QUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Except it contradicts all the other evidence. Like the ballistic evidence
of the two large fragments (determined to have been fired from Oswald's
weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world, and the
autopsy, which determined all the shots that struck the President came
from above and behind the level of the deceased, and the Zapruder film,
which shows a large explosion of brain matter out the right top of the
President's head, causing the Harper fragment to spiral upward and forward
of the President.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
Close enough for government work.
Hilarious, you're responding to yourself now.
No. Follow the arrows.
Sorry, denying the truth won't help you.
== QUOTE ==
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony.
== QUOTE ==
You then responded to that with "Close enough for Government work."
Both those comments are yours. You're arguing with yourself.
Your denials are meaningless.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
When you move the shots forward like that, and argue for a shot from the
knoll hitting JFK in the head, you wind up contradicting the other
evidence, such as the autopsy, which determined the shot that struck JFK
No. I have no qualms about contradicting the HSCA.
You're contradicting both the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel and the autopsy
doctors.
Yeah, so what? As I said before, the Second HSCA was going to
rubberstamp the WC.
Hilarious. So what? You have no expertise to contradict the medical
findings of the experts. Your claim that the HSCA was going to
rubber-stamp the Warren Commission findings is another allegation by you,
offered without evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your problem is you have no expertise to dispute their findings.
Yes, I do. years of actual research, unlike you.
No, you have no medical degree. You've never performed an autopsy or
participated in one. You have no education, no training, and no experience
in the field of forensic pathology. Your opinion here is worthless, Tony.
Nobody cares what you think, and nobody will write a book remembering your
contributions to the field of forensic pathology years from now.
That's "so what".
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
in his head was fired from behind. It also contradicts the hard evidence
of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon found in
You can't explain those fragments and neither could the HSCA. The WC
didn't even try. So how can you support the lies of the WC?
I already explained this.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the limo. Those large fragments most likely -- almost certainly -- came
from the head shot. And were fired from behind. You need to ignore or
Maybe. SHow me. Diagram it.
See the autopsy report.
Lies. Show me a bullet hole in the back of his head.
So now the autopsy report is lies? You determined that how? From your
vast experience in the field of forensic pathology, or because the autopsy
report contradicts your belief in a grassy knoll shot (as supposedly
recorded on the dictabelt), so it must be lies.
You're discarding the actual science for the pseudo-science. You don't
throw out the baby with the bathwater, as the saying goes, you throw out
the baby and keep the bath water.
HIlarious!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
question this evidence to argue for the legitimacy of the acoustic
evidence and a grassy knoll head shot.
Well, I can ignore your speculation, but I do not ignore the evidence.
You ignore the rearview mirror.
Asked and answered.
What hit it? Prove it.
Nobody can prove it.... high speed cameras that exposed hundreds of
thousands of frames per second weren't working in Dealey Plaza during the
assassination.
But either of the two large fragments found in the limo that were fired
from Oswald's rifle are the most likely candidates.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
Sure, I hope no one said the head shot came before Altgens 1-6.
BFD.
You're arguing with yourself again.
No. Follow the arrows.
No, you're arguing with yourself.
The phrase "Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots
as..."
Can be found in the article you posted. It's yours. The BFD is yours too.
You're arguing with yourself.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD.
And either of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon
could have caused the dent in the mirror. Again, evidence of a shot from
behind hitting the head, not a shot from the knoll.
Maybe. Show me. How about a fragment from the Connally shot?
There isn't enough metal missing from CE399 to have made that impact.
I did not say that CE 399 hit Connally. You are ASSuMING what you can't
prove.
And you're assuming more. You're assuming a massive conspiracy that
swapped out CE399 for the real bullet, or a massive conspiracy that
planted CE399 to be found by a porter in Parkland Hospital. CE399 bears
markings that establish it was fired from Oswald's rifle, and it was found
in the hospital where the victims were taken, and it was found nearby a
stretcher that Governor Connally had been first placed on, but on a
different floor that the Governor was never on. The assumption here is
that this is legitimate evidence, as it certainly appears to be.
You're assuming this massive conspiracy had the resources to track every
stretcher in the hospital and were smart enough to be able to get Oswald's
rifle in advance of the assassination, even though you've never
established how they knew where the rifle was, or even how they knew
Oswald owned a rifle, fire a bullet from it, capture the bullet relatively
undamaged, and then plant it on a floor removed from the Governor, a floor
the Governor was never on, near or on his stretcher. And then, perhaps,
swap it out for yet another bullet.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We can eliminate a shot missing the head entirely and striking the limo
because the damage to the chrome and the windshield would have been
greater.
Well, I certainly hope that we can rule out a direct hit.
Ok, that leaves only the head shot and the two large copper fragment found
in the limo, and those fragments were fired from Oswald's weapon to the
exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
Again, you are naking false ASSuMPIONS. What about the missing lead core
from the base fragment? Where did that go?
We both know the answer to that. There's a curb with a lead smear on it,
near where James Tague was struck.That's almost a straight line from
Oswald's rifle to JFK's head, to the curb.
And don't ask me to diagram it. Josiah Thompson did that in SIX SECONDS IN
DALLAS.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
What about Mark Furhman's theory? Any interest?
Explain it and argue for it. I'll tell you why you're wrong.
I am not arguing for it. You seem to think your only job here is to prove
everything I say wrong. And you haven't even done your homework. Learn to
Google.
Hilarious! You seem to think I need to rebut everything you suggest or
allude to. I don't. I'm more than satisfied just proving everything you
say is wrong.
Post by Anthony Marsh
This is HIS theory that a bullet went through JFK and missed Connally and
then hit the chrome topping. Attack HIM, not me.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/jfk-neck-transit02.png
He's not posting his theory here. If you think it's wrong, why bring it
up? For distraction purposes, to distract from the fact you cannot
establish your argument?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot.
I like that. Do you think it was a WCC jacketed bullet or a fragmenting
bullet?
You didn't argue to follow the arrows, but the phrase "I tend to feel that
all the damage to the limousine, consisting of the crack in the
windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome topping, was done by
the same shot." is from your article that you posted here. It's also your
response to that, "I like that. Do you think it was a WCC jacketed bullet
or a fragmenting bullet?"
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That makes no sense, unless the bullet fragmented before hitting the limo.
One shot moving rear to front cannot cause both the damage to the chrome
(inflicted from behind) and the damage to the windshield (also inflicted
from behind).
Something like that.
Now you're agreeing with me.
No, making fun of you.
Hilarious. It's your argument that all the damage to the limo was done by
one shot. I point out the damage had to caused by fragments, therefore, as
the damage was inflicted in different locations and all from behind, and
the most likely candidate for causing those fragments is a bullet strike
to the President's head. You think you're making fun of me by saying
"Something like that".
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
How about a bullet hitting the tree first and
fragmenting? Or Holland's theory about the traffic lght support bar?
The tree and the light pole weren't between the President's head and the
weapon at the time of the head shot.
Well, try harder then. Be a Holland.
This is your water to carry. I don't need to try harder. You do.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
But if you want to make a case for either, go ahead and try. I don't have
to disprove every speculation and possibility you suggest.
Please note what I pointed out above previously.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
So if we argue that one shot did all that damage, as you do above, we must
accept the bullet that did that damage had fragmented by hitting something
prior to striking the limo. The only real choice is the President's head,
Not true. Connally's wrist could do it.
We'll await your evidence instead of just your bald speculation. As noted,
there doesn't appear to be enough metal missing from CE399 to have caused
the damage you contend was caused by a fragment.
No evidence forthcoming. We might have guessed that would be the outcome.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
as nothing else in the limo suffered any bullet damage.
Not that YOU are allowed to know about? It doesn't affect this shot, but
they did find a bullet hole in the floor.
CITATION FOR THIS SUPPOSED FACT?
US news and World Report.
I've only posted this about 100 times so you probably overlooked it.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57753&relPageId=25
I've never seen the allegation before. You cite an FBI report written by
Belmont that says NO such bullet hole was found by the FBI, and that the
US News and World Report did not offer a source for the allegation. You
said "they did find a bullet hole in the floor". Who is "they" and where
is this established?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Go ahead cite for it. We'll wait.
We're still waiting.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That's further evidence the acoustic evidence is wrong as you attempt to
match the head shot visible in the Zapruder film to the knoll shot from
the acoustic evidence, and that doesn't work.
You did not point out any errors in my essay.
Only the ones you tried to explain away by claiming they were lies, like
your attempt to merge the Zapruder film with the supposed gunshots found
on the dictabelt had you denying the legitimacy of the ballistic evidence
and the autopsy. Surely you remember those errors. You then tried to claim
you were expert enough to overrule the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel,
which in aggregate had performed over 100,000 autopsies.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
As you noted, the acoustic study and the Z-film do not match up. That's
evidence the acoustic study is wrong. Your attempt to match the head shot to
the supposed knoll shot contradicts the autopsy doctors conclusions as well
as the experts on the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
You're trying to hammer the square peg of the bogus acoustic evidence into
the round hole of the Zapruder film and all the other evidence. The
Well, almost. But I do know that they modified the square hole into a
round hole. Do not start with the false assumption that the evidence is
perfect.
Do not assert the evidence is falsified unless you're willing to establish
that.
Of course, you ignored that admonishment and since have alleged the CE399
bullet isn't legitimate.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
consilience of this evidence points inexorably to one conclusion and one
conclusion only: all the shots were fired by Oswald from the
Depository.
You can't even prove that one shot was fired by Oswald. You only ASSuME
it.
Asked and answered. All the evidence points to him.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Among the evidence I'm talking about is this, from many different
- Eyewitness testimony that the only weapon seen firing that day was seen
in the Depository
- Descriptions of the gunman in terms that fit Oswald
Wrong. Was Oswald black?
Asked and answered.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The three shells found at the window where numerous witnesses
indicated they saw a gunman
Nope. Never rely on witnesses.
Nope? Why? The witnesses agree with the hard evidence found in that
window. Either they are both right or they are both wrong. Make your case
for them both being wrong. I'll show why your arguments are nonsense.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- The rifle found on the sixth floor
Could have been fired by someone else.
And Nicole Brown Simpson "might have" been killed by Columbian drug lords.
The problem with your theory, as with this one, is there's no evidence to
rule in that possibility. You don't get anyway by just assuming other
possibilities you have zero evidence for.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the paper bag found at the sniper's nest bearing Oswald's print
Why wasn't it photographed in place? The police tampered with the
evidence.
Asked and answered. A police trainee, on the job for about a month, picked
up the bag inadvertently. The correct procedure is to photograph it in
place, but once disturbed, it should NOT be placed back in the scene and
photographed.
They handled it correctly once it was advertently picked up. The fact you
cannot argue against this, but only ignore it, and bring up the same bogus
issue repeatedly, establishes you have no argument.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- Oswald's print on a sniper's nest box, as if he sat on the box looking
out that window
No. And he worked there.
He worked at that sniper's nest window? And sat on the box and put his
hand down at his side doing what, when? Remember the print was fresh, made
within the last 24 hours.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Show me his prints on the other boxes he
handled doing his job that morning.
Those don't establish anything.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the fingerprints on the trigger guard of the weapon belonging to Oswald
YOU IGNORED HIS PRINTS ON THE TRIGGER GUARD! Hilarious!
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the two large fragments found in the limo that were traceable to Oswald's
weapon
But you can't xaplain how they got there.
Not true. Oswald fired his rifle, the bullet from that rifle struck the
President in the head and the lead core struck Tague. The two copper
fragments landed in the limo after striking the windowshield, the back of
the mirror, and the chome top.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the autopsy results concluding JFK was hit from behind by only two shots.
Then why did they and the WC have to LIE about the wounds?
Assertions are easy to make. Proving your asserting would actually take
some evidence. Evidence you don't have.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the HSCA forensic pathology panel concluding the same as the autopsists
YOU IGNORED THIS!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
- the damage to the windshield and the chrome which had to be inflicted by
separate fragments.
Not exactly.
Exactly. Both the damage to the chrome frame and the windshield were not
made by a whole bullet. Both were inflicted on the limo from behind. Both
came from fragments. And two large fragments were found in the limo.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And they also did not try to exaplein the chrome topping
and the fragments.
I just did.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313.
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
I never said it was asolute proof.
You're arguing with yourself again. You wrote "The jiggle analysis can not
be used as absolute proof of when a shot occurred, but it matches up
better for the head shot from the grassy knoll" as well as the rebuttal "I
never said it was asolute proof.".
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
I explained why it matches the head
shot from the grassy knoll better.
But as I pointed out, it contradicts the other evidence, like the autopsy.
So you're left with discarding the autopsy findings and the findings of
the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do yyou even dispute the HSCA's sue
of the jiggle analysis? Lattimer? You gonna call him names?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Comparing the jiggle analysis to the acoustic evidence is fruitless.
Neither is scientific. They are both guesswork based on a heaping batch of
They wer both SCIENCE. But you don't believe in Science. You'd rather
believe in a witnesss who said the shooter was black.
Hilarious. When did I say I think Euins was right to call the shooter
black?
Stop making up stuff and creating straw men to rebut.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
suppositions. The real evidence tells a different story. See the list
above.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
I don't rely on what Altgens said. I rely on his photos.
Never rely on witnesses.
You're still arguing with yourself. You wrote "Could eyewitness testimony
help resolve the question of which shot hit what? Secret Service agent
Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last shot he heard sounded as though
it had hit some metal place." (That's from your own quoted article,
Tony!)
You then caution yourself to "Never rely on witnesses. "
Hilarious. And yet sad too, that you cannot even remember what you wrote.
You ignored this as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place.
No, he said he thought it had a double sound, like the shot of the rifle
and then the sound of the bullet striking something hard, like the head.
Hill only heard two shots. He compared the sound to the sound of the
cartridge, not the bullet, being ejected from an automatic weapon and
hitting something metal.
== QUOTE ==
Mr. HILL. Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I
was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed
a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his
left.... The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were
standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the
sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal
place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the
head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hill said his best guess was the bullet hitting the skull caused the
second sound, but his analogy was of a empty cartridge being ejected from
an automatic and hitting something metal. That sounds almost exactly like
Hill could be describing the head shot and a copper fragment missing its
lead core hitting the chrome top.
I like that better, please show me your diagram.
You don't need a diagram to understand what I wrote. This is merely a
delaying tactic on your part.
You ignored this as well.
I try to ignore you, but I keep responding to your nonsense.
I try to respond to your messages, but you ramble on and on saying the
same thing all the time so your message is too long for me to reply to
it. When I try to SEND my reply the server says I have exceed the number
of bytes allowed.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
John Corbett
2020-09-17 16:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount.
Really?
I see something entirely different in a direct comparison of frames 312
and 313. https://www.jfk-online.com/Closeup_312-313.gif
Phony
Established where?
Post by Anthony Marsh
So can you even admit the Jiggle anaysis?
Even a WC defender like Lattimer believed in it.
So do you know more than Lattimer?
I am not bound by what every other "WC defender" believes.
So you are not allowed to admit any simple fact, like gravity if a
conspiracy believer believes in it?
Begging the question... you haven't established the jiggle analysis is
"simple fact, like gravity", you're just asserting it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots.
Only if the acoustic studies are correct.
I proved that they are. You can never admit any fact or your whole world
would collapse.
You're not qualified to prove anything of the sort.
Yes, I am. I verified the acoustical studies.
Other than you, who accepts you as a qualified expert on acoustics?
Don Thomas.
Is that a name you just pulled out of the phonebook at random?

Just what are HIS qualifications?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Have you testified in any court cases?
No.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Are you recognized as an acoustic expert by other experts?
Not by WC defenders. TThey deny everything.
That wasn't the question. Do any acoustics experts recognize you as an
expert.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Have you written any peer reviewed articles on acoustics?
The only chance I had was the article about the NAS.
Was that peer reviewed?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Do you belong to any recognized professional groups?
Never.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
No? You're not qualified, regardless of your claims to the contrary.
I was the person who wrote the arricle about the NAS.
Writing an article does not qualify one as an expert. Getting published in
a peer reviewed journal might. We know you've never done that.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2020-09-13 01:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount.
Really?
I see something entirely different in a direct comparison of frames 312 and
313.
https://www.jfk-online.com/Closeup_312-313.gif
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots.
Only if the acoustic studies are correct.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
The fact that the acoustic evidence doesn't match the rest of the evidence
should be a huge clue that the acoustic studies are wrong.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
When you move the shots forward like that, and argue for a shot from the
knoll hitting JFK in the head, you wind up contradicting the other
evidence, such as the autopsy, which determined the shot that struck JFK
in his head was fired from behind. It also contradicts the hard evidence
of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon found in
the limo. Those large fragments most likely -- almost certainly -- came
from the head shot. And were fired from behind. You need to ignore or
question this evidence to argue for the legitimacy of the acoustic
evidence and a grassy knoll head shot.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD.
And either of the two large bullet fragments traceable to Oswald's weapon
could have caused the dent in the mirror. Again, evidence of a shot from
behind hitting the head, not a shot from the knoll.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We can eliminate a shot missing the head entirely and striking the limo
because the damage to the chrome and the windshield would have been
greater.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
Post by Anthony Marsh
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot.
That makes no sense, unless the bullet fragmented before hitting the limo.
One shot moving rear to front cannot cause both the damage to the chrome
(inflicted from behind) and the damage to the windshield (also inflicted
from behind).
So if we argue that one shot did all that damage, as you do above, we must
accept the bullet that did that damage had fragmented by hitting something
prior to striking the limo. The only real choice is the President's head,
as nothing else in the limo suffered any bullet damage.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
That's further evidence the acoustic evidence is wrong as you attempt to
match the head shot visible in the Zapruder film to the knoll shot from
the acoustic evidence, and that doesn't work.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
You're trying to hammer the square peg of the bogus acoustic evidence into
the round hole of the Zapruder film and all the other evidence. The
consilience of this evidence points inexorably to one conclusion and one
conclusion only: all the shots were fired by Oswald from the
Depository.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Among the evidence I'm talking about is this, from many different
- Eyewitness testimony that the only weapon seen firing that day was seen
in the Depository
- Descriptions of the gunman in terms that fit Oswald
- The three shells found at the window where numerous witnesses indicated
they saw a gunman
- The rifle found on the sixth floor
- the paper bag found at the sniper's nest bearing Oswald's print
- Oswald's print on a sniper's nest box, as if he sat on the box looking
out that window
- the fingerprints on the trigger guard of the weapon belonging to Oswald
- the two large fragments found in the limo that were traceable to Oswald's
weapon
- the autopsy results concluding JFK was hit from behind by only two shots.
- the HSCA forensic pathology panel concluding the same as the autopsists
- the damage to the windshield and the chrome which had to be inflicted by
separate fragments.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313.
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
Comparing the jiggle analysis to the acoustic evidence is fruitless.
Neither is scientific. They are both guesswork based on a heaping batch of
suppositions. The real evidence tells a different story. See the list
above.
Tony of course ignores this.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place.
No, he said he thought it had a double sound, like the shot of the rifle
and then the sound of the bullet striking something hard, like the head.
Hill only heard two shots. He compared the sound to the sound of the
cartridge, not the bullet, being ejected from an automatic weapon and
hitting something metal.
== QUOTE ==
Mr. HILL. Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I
was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed
a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his
left.... The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were
standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the
sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal
place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the
head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hill said his best guess was the bullet hitting the skull caused the
second sound, but his analogy was of a empty cartridge being ejected from
an automatic and hitting something metal. That sounds almost exactly like
Hill could be describing the head shot and a copper fragment missing its
lead core hitting the chrome top.
Tony of course ignores this.
Hank
John Corbett
2020-09-05 18:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
There were more jiggles than gunshots so every jiggle is not evidence of a
gunshot. We are still left to make educated guesses as to when the first
shot was fired. My estimate of the first shot fired at or about Z151 fits
with the Z158 jiggle but that is not definitive proof.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
This is the most significant statement in this entire article with
emphasis on the "suspect" part.
Post by Anthony Marsh
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll,
Of course not since there is none.
Post by Anthony Marsh
but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
JFK's head moved forward in relation to Jackie's position indicating it
was going forward faster than she was.
Post by Anthony Marsh
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount. Unless all four were hit by
bullets (a practical impossibility), their forward movement must be caused
by something else. The most likely cause is inertia due to the limousine
having suddenly slowed down. Dr. Luis Alvarez noted in his study [1] that
the average velocity of the limousine going down Elm Street sharply
decreased just before the head shot. Some researchers have theorized that
Secret Service agent Bill Greer jammed on the brakes or took his foot off
the accelerator. Whatever he did, the limousine very quickly changed from
an average velocity of about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH just before the head
shot. Obeying the law of inertia, passengers in the limo were thrust
forward in relation to their previous positions in the limousine. Further
evidence of this effect is the fact that the Connallys continued to move
forward while President Kennedy was being thrust backwards. I have not
done a similar analysis of previous Zapruder frames to pinpoint the start
of the occupants' forward movement, so I would urge others to do so
themselves, in order to verify my results and observations. Figure 1.
Z-frame rollbar Nellie Connally Jackie JFK
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
x/60" Z312 136 106 77 44 159
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 9 forward 5 forward 10 forward 6 forward 7
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z313 145 111 87 38 152
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z314 147 113 88 39 151
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 0 forward 4 forward 6 rearward 6
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z315 151 113 92 33 157
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 rearward 9
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z316 148 115 93 34 166
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 7 forward 4
rearward 11
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z317 150 117 100 30 177
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 5 forward 2 rearward 5
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z319 153 122 NA 28 182
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 0 forward 4 forward 3
rearward 14
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z320 153 126 130 25 196
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z321 157 NA NA 26 195
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies.
Unfortunately for you, that is all you have and it is highly suspect.
Post by Anthony Marsh
But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots. All times are measured in seconds
after the microphone became stuck open for several minutes. BBN found 4
shots on the tape,
Correction. They found four impulses which they interpreted as shots.
Post by Anthony Marsh
3 of which came from the TSBD at 137.70, 139.27, and
145.61 respectively. The grassy knoll shot was found by Weiss and
Aschkenasy to be recorded at 144.90. There was a fifth set of impulses
which was rejected by HSCA as being a false alarm at 140.32. I have looked
at the waveforms more closely to try to determine when the muzzle blast of
each shot was recorded, to a greater degree of accuracy. My best estimate
for each shot is 137.702, 139.268, 140.339, 144.895, and 145.608. You can
get a general idea of the spacing between shots by subtracting one time
from another. But there is an additional variable which must be taken into
account. BBN found that the recorder used that day was running about 5%
slow, so all times must be multiplied by about 1.05 in order to restore
the original spacing. A more accurate correction factor might be borrowed
from the work which W&A did on the grassy knoll shot. They found that a
correction factor of 1.043 produced the best fit for echo delays compared
to their predicted model. Another possible corroboration for the 1.043
correction factor is the 'bell' sound found by BBN at 152.5. Although Todd
Vaughan believes that it is only electrical interference, if we can
determine its true frequency, we can derive the most accurate correction
factor. That holds true for many other sounds on the tape, such as car
horns, tire squeals, police sirens, etc. BBN found that the 'bell' sound
had a nominal pitch of 420 Hz. This is close to the note A, which is
usually 440 Hz. If the sound is really a bell, it might have been tuned to
A=440. We do not know for sure what type of bell it was. Most people have
assumed that it is a carillon bell, but it could be a train bell, a ship's
bell, or a victory bell on a college campus. There are a couple of other
possible tunings which would produce a correction factor close to 1.043.
If the bell had been tuned using a mean-tone temperament scale, it might
have a real pitch of 438.075 Hz. Dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.0430357. If the bell had been tuned to an old
English standard of A=438.9, dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.045. Applying the correction factor to the spacing
between shots as found by BBN will give us the true spacing between muzzle
blasts picked up by McLain's cycle. If we want to then translate those
into Zapruder frames, we must multiply each interval by 18.3 frames.
Figure 2 is a rough approximation of how many frames there were between
all 5 muzzle blasts.
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD. I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot. If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313. Photographic enhancement of the Zapruder film,
Muchmore film or the Bronson film might reveal that the windshield was not
cracked by Z-314. If that turns out to be true, then the last shot from
the TSBD must have missed JFK's head and hit the windshield. In turn, that
would mean that the fatal head shot came from the grassy knoll. I
seriously doubt that there is any photograph which would show exactly when
the rearview mirror was dented, but perhaps some as-yet-undiscovered
photograph would show when the chrome topping was dented. That dent could
only have been caused by a shot from behind the limo. If it was undented
at Z-314, that would prove that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version
or mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA
admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll
shot was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the
impulses to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is
indicated in brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The
jiggle analysis measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To
simply and clarify, I have put the groups into ascending order. The group
with the largest amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B',
etc. I have chosen the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are
usually midway between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran
at 18.3 frames per second on average.
Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data
Frames Group
158-159 D
191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not
227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.
290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before
313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.
331-332 A2
HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle
137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B
139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1
[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C
144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1
145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact
had heard the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would
not, in and of itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the
dent could have been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would
narrow the range during which the chrome topping was dented to between
Z-313 to Z-331 and make it more likely that the chrome topping was dented
at the same time that the windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier
as some have speculated.
On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the
statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the
grassy knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the
direct path of gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that
the head shot came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the
TSBD. Emmett Hudson, who was standing on the steps leading up to the
pergola, said that the shots sounded as if they came from behind him,
above his head and to his left. That would place the origin near the
fence. Zapruder felt that the head shot had come from behind him and
whistled past his right ear. Between these two witnesses and behind them
is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable shockwave at 24 ms.
before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot. Assuming the weapon was
aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough calculation of the velocity of
the bullet and the resultant angle of the shockwave. Although the
calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too difficult for me, a
rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet at about 1564.5
fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on either side
of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within the cone
of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.
How can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it
had been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have
been outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not
have been recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can
be found in the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he
was shown a very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the
viewpoint was looking right down the barrel of the gun. Given Mary
Moorman's position, the gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In
Moorman 2 we can see the head of a man peering over the fence, about 9
feet from the corner. Interestingly, this is the same spot where W&A
located the origin of the grassy knoll shot, unaware of the existence of
Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view of any weapon as we
might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever this man was, he
moved from that position very quickly after the head shot. There is no one
there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton photograph, taken
shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has never been
analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were unaware of
its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I found it
at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to properly
analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal the
presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher, Dale
Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a
person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.
Many witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films.
Some fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize
the danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the
grassy knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave
whizzing past them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe
their reactions was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can
see Hudson and his two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola.
They do not seem to be reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see
that two of the men are reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men
would not have reacted to the sound of a shockwave coming from so close
behind them. If the grassy knoll shot was the miss before the head shot,
we would expect to see these men react before the head shot. The fact that
they did not react until after the head shot would seem to indicate that
the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Based on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is
more likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Existing
evidence can and should be examined further. More information can be
gleaned from existing data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data
could provide new clues and allow us to verify certain methods, such as
the acoustical studies. I urge other researchers to look for new evidence
and perform new analyses.
------
1. W. Peter Trower, ed., "Discovering Alvarez", (Chicago: The University
Press, 1987), pp. 210-224. Also HSCA Vol. I, pp. 428-442.
2. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, p.80, footnote 16
All this analysis might be worth discussing if it was about a recording of
the assassination but it was a recording taken about a minute afterward
and not from Dealey Plaza. You did all that hard work for nothing.
Anthony Marsh
2020-09-08 02:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
There were more jiggles than gunshots so every jiggle is not evidence of a
gunshot. We are still left to make educated guesses as to when the first
shot was fired. My estimate of the first shot fired at or about Z151 fits
with the Z158 jiggle but that is not definitive proof.
They only identied 4 jiggles. They only found 4 shots.


Well, just to help you out, some think the extra jiggle was not Zapruder
hearing a shot, but SEEING the head shot.
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
This is the most significant statement in this entire article with
emphasis on the "suspect" part.
Post by Anthony Marsh
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll,
Of course not since there is none.
Post by Anthony Marsh
but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
JFK's head moved forward in relation to Jackie's position indicating it
was going forward faster than she was.
Post by Anthony Marsh
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount. Unless all four were hit by
bullets (a practical impossibility), their forward movement must be caused
by something else. The most likely cause is inertia due to the limousine
having suddenly slowed down. Dr. Luis Alvarez noted in his study [1] that
the average velocity of the limousine going down Elm Street sharply
decreased just before the head shot. Some researchers have theorized that
Secret Service agent Bill Greer jammed on the brakes or took his foot off
the accelerator. Whatever he did, the limousine very quickly changed from
an average velocity of about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH just before the head
shot. Obeying the law of inertia, passengers in the limo were thrust
forward in relation to their previous positions in the limousine. Further
evidence of this effect is the fact that the Connallys continued to move
forward while President Kennedy was being thrust backwards. I have not
done a similar analysis of previous Zapruder frames to pinpoint the start
of the occupants' forward movement, so I would urge others to do so
themselves, in order to verify my results and observations. Figure 1.
Z-frame rollbar Nellie Connally Jackie JFK
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
x/60" Z312 136 106 77 44 159
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 9 forward 5 forward 10 forward 6 forward 7
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z313 145 111 87 38 152
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z314 147 113 88 39 151
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 0 forward 4 forward 6 rearward 6
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z315 151 113 92 33 157
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 rearward 9
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z316 148 115 93 34 166
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 7 forward 4
rearward 11
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z317 150 117 100 30 177
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 5 forward 2 rearward 5
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z319 153 122 NA 28 182
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 0 forward 4 forward 3
rearward 14
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z320 153 126 130 25 196
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z321 157 NA NA 26 195
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies.
Unfortunately for you, that is all you have and it is highly suspect.
Post by Anthony Marsh
But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots. All times are measured in seconds
after the microphone became stuck open for several minutes. BBN found 4
shots on the tape,
Correction. They found four impulses which they interpreted as shots.
Post by Anthony Marsh
3 of which came from the TSBD at 137.70, 139.27, and
145.61 respectively. The grassy knoll shot was found by Weiss and
Aschkenasy to be recorded at 144.90. There was a fifth set of impulses
which was rejected by HSCA as being a false alarm at 140.32. I have looked
at the waveforms more closely to try to determine when the muzzle blast of
each shot was recorded, to a greater degree of accuracy. My best estimate
for each shot is 137.702, 139.268, 140.339, 144.895, and 145.608. You can
get a general idea of the spacing between shots by subtracting one time
from another. But there is an additional variable which must be taken into
account. BBN found that the recorder used that day was running about 5%
slow, so all times must be multiplied by about 1.05 in order to restore
the original spacing. A more accurate correction factor might be borrowed
from the work which W&A did on the grassy knoll shot. They found that a
correction factor of 1.043 produced the best fit for echo delays compared
to their predicted model. Another possible corroboration for the 1.043
correction factor is the 'bell' sound found by BBN at 152.5. Although Todd
Vaughan believes that it is only electrical interference, if we can
determine its true frequency, we can derive the most accurate correction
factor. That holds true for many other sounds on the tape, such as car
horns, tire squeals, police sirens, etc. BBN found that the 'bell' sound
had a nominal pitch of 420 Hz. This is close to the note A, which is
usually 440 Hz. If the sound is really a bell, it might have been tuned to
A=440. We do not know for sure what type of bell it was. Most people have
assumed that it is a carillon bell, but it could be a train bell, a ship's
bell, or a victory bell on a college campus. There are a couple of other
possible tunings which would produce a correction factor close to 1.043.
If the bell had been tuned using a mean-tone temperament scale, it might
have a real pitch of 438.075 Hz. Dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.0430357. If the bell had been tuned to an old
English standard of A=438.9, dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.045. Applying the correction factor to the spacing
between shots as found by BBN will give us the true spacing between muzzle
blasts picked up by McLain's cycle. If we want to then translate those
into Zapruder frames, we must multiply each interval by 18.3 frames.
Figure 2 is a rough approximation of how many frames there were between
all 5 muzzle blasts.
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD. I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot. If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313. Photographic enhancement of the Zapruder film,
Muchmore film or the Bronson film might reveal that the windshield was not
cracked by Z-314. If that turns out to be true, then the last shot from
the TSBD must have missed JFK's head and hit the windshield. In turn, that
would mean that the fatal head shot came from the grassy knoll. I
seriously doubt that there is any photograph which would show exactly when
the rearview mirror was dented, but perhaps some as-yet-undiscovered
photograph would show when the chrome topping was dented. That dent could
only have been caused by a shot from behind the limo. If it was undented
at Z-314, that would prove that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version
or mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA
admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll
shot was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the
impulses to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is
indicated in brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The
jiggle analysis measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To
simply and clarify, I have put the groups into ascending order. The group
with the largest amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B',
etc. I have chosen the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are
usually midway between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran
at 18.3 frames per second on average.
Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data
Frames Group
158-159 D
191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not
227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.
290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before
313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.
331-332 A2
HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle
137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B
139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1
[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C
144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1
145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact
had heard the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would
not, in and of itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the
dent could have been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would
narrow the range during which the chrome topping was dented to between
Z-313 to Z-331 and make it more likely that the chrome topping was dented
at the same time that the windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier
as some have speculated.
On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the
statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the
grassy knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the
direct path of gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that
the head shot came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the
TSBD. Emmett Hudson, who was standing on the steps leading up to the
pergola, said that the shots sounded as if they came from behind him,
above his head and to his left. That would place the origin near the
fence. Zapruder felt that the head shot had come from behind him and
whistled past his right ear. Between these two witnesses and behind them
is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable shockwave at 24 ms.
before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot. Assuming the weapon was
aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough calculation of the velocity of
the bullet and the resultant angle of the shockwave. Although the
calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too difficult for me, a
rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet at about 1564.5
fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on either side
of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within the cone
of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.
How can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it
had been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have
been outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not
have been recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can
be found in the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he
was shown a very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the
viewpoint was looking right down the barrel of the gun. Given Mary
Moorman's position, the gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In
Moorman 2 we can see the head of a man peering over the fence, about 9
feet from the corner. Interestingly, this is the same spot where W&A
located the origin of the grassy knoll shot, unaware of the existence of
Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view of any weapon as we
might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever this man was, he
moved from that position very quickly after the head shot. There is no one
there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton photograph, taken
shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has never been
analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were unaware of
its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I found it
at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to properly
analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal the
presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher, Dale
Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a
person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.
Many witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films.
Some fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize
the danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the
grassy knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave
whizzing past them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe
their reactions was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can
see Hudson and his two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola.
They do not seem to be reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see
that two of the men are reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men
would not have reacted to the sound of a shockwave coming from so close
behind them. If the grassy knoll shot was the miss before the head shot,
we would expect to see these men react before the head shot. The fact that
they did not react until after the head shot would seem to indicate that
the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Based on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is
more likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Existing
evidence can and should be examined further. More information can be
gleaned from existing data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data
could provide new clues and allow us to verify certain methods, such as
the acoustical studies. I urge other researchers to look for new evidence
and perform new analyses.
------
1. W. Peter Trower, ed., "Discovering Alvarez", (Chicago: The University
Press, 1987), pp. 210-224. Also HSCA Vol. I, pp. 428-442.
2. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, p.80, footnote 16
All this analysis might be worth discussing if it was about a recording of
the assassination but it was a recording taken about a minute afterward
and not from Dealey Plaza. You did all that hard work for nothing.
Silly. It was recorded in Dealey Plaza. Someone lied to you about it
being a minute after the shots.
John Corbett
2020-09-09 00:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Doctor W
Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn???t
see a man. I didn???t even see if it had a scope on it. ??? I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President???s car and the car behind him.
(???Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun???, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
I was reading an interesting post in one of the forums about
witness/photographer Bob Jackson that included the following paragraphs
about the WC's theoretical shot sequence that I had never realized, until
now, was true.
It mentions that the majority of the witnesses stated the second and third
heard shots were bunched much closer together than the first and second
shots.
BUT,
the WC (current) theory has the second and third shots timed 46%
further apart than the WC's first and second shots.
The most important determination by Mr. Jackson, by far, (that he has also
always maintained to this very day), AND, that the WCR report even also
admitted to a "substantial majority" witnesses majority (that Dulles
stated was a five-to-one ratio), is that Mr. Jackson, along a very
significant, large percentage of his fellow witnesses who recalled hearing
3 or more shots, all maintained and described that the 2nd and 3rd shots
were definitely bunched much closer together, than were the 1st and 2nd
shots they could hear.
http://youtu.be/ctNVyf9jdCM
http://youtu.be/VGzCNg1OEww
- But, WC believers (current) theory of LN shots triggered at Zap-160,
221, and triggered at 310, is contradictory to the significant majority
of the witnesses actually there, in that the (current) WC theory places
its 2nd and 3rd LN shots 46% further spaced apart than its 1st and 2nd
theoretical LN shots--"
A number like 46% is very, very significant IMHO, and a majority of
persons definitely WOULD notice that significant difference.
(especially witnesses, laws enforcement officials, and Secret Service
Agents who had extensive prior experiences actually firing weapons)
(for example, do you think you would notice a politician winning an
election by 46%, or your suddenly having to pay today $3.18 for a gallon
for gas that was $2.17 yesterday)
Whether you are a CT or (especially) a LNer, can you simply explain that
46% longer time in the WC current theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_effect
"The kappa effect or perceptual time dilation[1] is a temporal perceptual
illusion that can arise when observers judge the elapsed time between
sensory stimuli applied sequentially at different locations. In perceiving
a sequence of consecutive stimuli, subjects tend to overestimate the
elapsed time between two successive stimuli when the distance between the
stimuli is sufficiently large, and to underestimate the elapsed time when
the distance is sufficiently small."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_effect#:~:text=The%20tau%20effect%20is%20a,stimuli%20in%20a%20stimulus%20sequence.
"The tau effect is a spatial perceptual illusion that arises when
observers judge the distance between consecutive stimuli in a stimulus
sequence. When the distance from one stimulus to the next is constant, and
the time elapsed from one stimulus to the next is also constant, subjects
tend to judge the distances, correctly, as equal. However, if the distance
from one stimulus to the next is constant, but the time elapsed from one
stimulus to the next is not constant, then subjects tend to misperceive
the interval that has the shorter temporal interval as also having a
shorter spatial interval."
Both the Kappa and Tau effect deal with time perception illusions. This
helps explain why some earwitnesses/eyewitnesses felt the second and third
shots were right on top of each other.
There are other explanations, too, but I think the Kappa effect and Tau
effect make a contribution towards explaining the perceptions from some
bystanders concerning shot spacing.
I hadn't heard of these before but both sound interesting and plausible
explanations for the perceptions of the witnesses. The Zapruder film
doesn't tell us precisely when the first shot was fired but there are
about 90 frames between the second and third. If we went back 90 frames
from the second shot, that takes us right about to the time Zapruder
resumed filming. Unless Max Holland is right that the first shot was fired
before Zapruder resumed filming, that would mean there was less than 90
frames between the first and second shots and therefore less time.
I have long maintained that Zapruder's camera is the best eyewitness we
have but unfortunately, that witness was totally deaf. That leaves us to
speculate as to precisely when that first shot was fired. We all have our
guesses but none of us can prove them.
Not exactly. Do you understand the jiggle analysis?
Zapruder could hear the shots and it made his camera move.
There were more jiggles than gunshots so every jiggle is not evidence of a
gunshot. We are still left to make educated guesses as to when the first
shot was fired. My estimate of the first shot fired at or about Z151 fits
with the Z158 jiggle but that is not definitive proof.
They only identied 4 jiggles. They only found 4 shots.
Well, just to help you out, some think the extra jiggle was not Zapruder
hearing a shot, but SEEING the head shot.
Those two events would have happened almost simultaneously with the bullet hitting the head roughly a tenth of a second before Zapruder heard the sound.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by John Corbett
Post by Anthony Marsh
Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll
(c) - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh
Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993
As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from
the grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.
This is the most significant statement in this entire article with
emphasis on the "suspect" part.
Post by Anthony Marsh
However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would
indicate that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at
Z-313 came from the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive
proof of a head shot from the grassy knoll,
Of course not since there is none.
Post by Anthony Marsh
but it will cite examples of
circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that the head shot came
from the grassy knoll. Some of the examples are well known, but need to be
reexamined.
The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.
Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies,
such as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President
Kennedy's head around the time of the head shot. They note that President
Kennedy's head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite
that as proof of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and
everyone else has failed to do is analyze the movements of all the
occupants of the rear compartment of the limousine, including the
Connallys. That is what I have done.
JFK's head moved forward in relation to Jackie's position indicating it
was going forward faster than she was.
Post by Anthony Marsh
My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is
not, unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film
as used in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements
in 1/60th of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder
frames 312 to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The
Grassy Knoll Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the
center of the window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front
edge of his reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the
reference line to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not
use unadjusted measurements from these prints to calculate precise
positions, but can estimate relative movements. This may be due to a
variety of factors, such as variations in printing and copying each frame,
changes in perspective, mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames
are too blurred to allow accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie
Connally's position is to the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of
John Connally's position is to the front edge of his forehead. Each
measurement of Jackie Kennedy's position is to the front edge of her
pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's position is to the edge of his hair
at the rear of his head. All measurements were lined up against the chrome
strip in the background for better contrast. Be sure to remember that
increasing measurements for the Connallys represent forward motion, while
increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent rearward motion. Notice
the direction and amount of movement of each person listed in Figure 1.
Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear compartment of the
limo moved forward by about the same amount. Unless all four were hit by
bullets (a practical impossibility), their forward movement must be caused
by something else. The most likely cause is inertia due to the limousine
having suddenly slowed down. Dr. Luis Alvarez noted in his study [1] that
the average velocity of the limousine going down Elm Street sharply
decreased just before the head shot. Some researchers have theorized that
Secret Service agent Bill Greer jammed on the brakes or took his foot off
the accelerator. Whatever he did, the limousine very quickly changed from
an average velocity of about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH just before the head
shot. Obeying the law of inertia, passengers in the limo were thrust
forward in relation to their previous positions in the limousine. Further
evidence of this effect is the fact that the Connallys continued to move
forward while President Kennedy was being thrust backwards. I have not
done a similar analysis of previous Zapruder frames to pinpoint the start
of the occupants' forward movement, so I would urge others to do so
themselves, in order to verify my results and observations. Figure 1.
Z-frame rollbar Nellie Connally Jackie JFK
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
x/60" Z312 136 106 77 44 159
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 9 forward 5 forward 10 forward 6 forward 7
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z313 145 111 87 38 152
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z314 147 113 88 39 151
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 0 forward 4 forward 6 rearward 6
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z315 151 113 92 33 157
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 rearward 9
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z316 148 115 93 34 166
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 2 forward 2 forward 7 forward 4
rearward 11
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z317 150 117 100 30 177
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 3 forward 5 forward 2 rearward 5
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z319 153 122 NA 28 182
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 0 forward 4 forward 3
rearward 14
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z320 153 126 130 25 196
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
difference 4 rearward 1 forward 1
----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Z321 157 NA NA 26 195
Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select
Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my
opinion, the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest
entirely on the acoustical studies.
Unfortunately for you, that is all you have and it is highly suspect.
Post by Anthony Marsh
But the acoustical studies are useful
for establishing the time between shots. All times are measured in seconds
after the microphone became stuck open for several minutes. BBN found 4
shots on the tape,
Correction. They found four impulses which they interpreted as shots.
Post by Anthony Marsh
3 of which came from the TSBD at 137.70, 139.27, and
145.61 respectively. The grassy knoll shot was found by Weiss and
Aschkenasy to be recorded at 144.90. There was a fifth set of impulses
which was rejected by HSCA as being a false alarm at 140.32. I have looked
at the waveforms more closely to try to determine when the muzzle blast of
each shot was recorded, to a greater degree of accuracy. My best estimate
for each shot is 137.702, 139.268, 140.339, 144.895, and 145.608. You can
get a general idea of the spacing between shots by subtracting one time
from another. But there is an additional variable which must be taken into
account. BBN found that the recorder used that day was running about 5%
slow, so all times must be multiplied by about 1.05 in order to restore
the original spacing. A more accurate correction factor might be borrowed
from the work which W&A did on the grassy knoll shot. They found that a
correction factor of 1.043 produced the best fit for echo delays compared
to their predicted model. Another possible corroboration for the 1.043
correction factor is the 'bell' sound found by BBN at 152.5. Although Todd
Vaughan believes that it is only electrical interference, if we can
determine its true frequency, we can derive the most accurate correction
factor. That holds true for many other sounds on the tape, such as car
horns, tire squeals, police sirens, etc. BBN found that the 'bell' sound
had a nominal pitch of 420 Hz. This is close to the note A, which is
usually 440 Hz. If the sound is really a bell, it might have been tuned to
A=440. We do not know for sure what type of bell it was. Most people have
assumed that it is a carillon bell, but it could be a train bell, a ship's
bell, or a victory bell on a college campus. There are a couple of other
possible tunings which would produce a correction factor close to 1.043.
If the bell had been tuned using a mean-tone temperament scale, it might
have a real pitch of 438.075 Hz. Dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.0430357. If the bell had been tuned to an old
English standard of A=438.9, dividing that by 420 would give us a
correction factor of 1.045. Applying the correction factor to the spacing
between shots as found by BBN will give us the true spacing between muzzle
blasts picked up by McLain's cycle. If we want to then translate those
into Zapruder frames, we must multiply each interval by 18.3 frames.
Figure 2 is a rough approximation of how many frames there were between
all 5 muzzle blasts.
Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and
depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the
bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as
matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first
shot after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the
last shot with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the
head shot came from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the
head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Figure 2. origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame TSBD
137.702 162 176
Post by John Corbett
1.566 1.633 29.89
TSBD 139.268 192 206
Post by John Corbett
1.071 1.117 20.44
TSBD 140.339 212 226
Post by John Corbett
4.556 4.752 86.96
Knoll 144.895 299 313
Post by John Corbett
0.713 0.744 13.61
TSBD 145.608 313 327
The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first
shot is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and
clearly President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The
first shot was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at
around Z190- 192. The problem with that is that we can see President
Kennedy in the Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not
yet appear to be reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no
indication that Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that
time, nor at about Z- 210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA
rejected.
My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range
of Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of
Z-226 to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of
the Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove
exactly when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their
back wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and
mine, regardless of other evidence.
Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as
matches with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the
TSBD as matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350
shows a crack on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6,
but is seen in Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot
from which direction caused that crack. I believe that I am the first
person to notice something in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you
look carefully at CE350, you will notice that the back of the rearview
mirror is dented, but you can see that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6.
This damage was caused by a bullet fragment which struck the windshield
from the inside and ricochetted into the rearview mirror. Many people
believe this fragment came from the head shot, which would been fired from
the TSBD. I tend to feel that all the damage to the limousine, consisting
of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview mirror and dented chrome
topping, was done by the same shot. If we can find evidence which
pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show that it came
several frames after Z-313. Photographic enhancement of the Zapruder film,
Muchmore film or the Bronson film might reveal that the windshield was not
cracked by Z-314. If that turns out to be true, then the last shot from
the TSBD must have missed JFK's head and hit the windshield. In turn, that
would mean that the fatal head shot came from the grassy knoll. I
seriously doubt that there is any photograph which would show exactly when
the rearview mirror was dented, but perhaps some as-yet-undiscovered
photograph would show when the chrome topping was dented. That dent could
only have been caused by a shot from behind the limo. If it was undented
at Z-314, that would prove that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version
or mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA
admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll
shot was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the
impulses to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is
indicated in brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The
jiggle analysis measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To
simply and clarify, I have put the groups into ascending order. The group
with the largest amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B',
etc. I have chosen the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are
usually midway between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran
at 18.3 frames per second on average.
Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data
Frames Group
158-159 D
191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not
227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.
290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before
313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.
331-332 A2
HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle
137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B
139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1
[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C
144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1
145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2
The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot
occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy
knoll.
Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot
hit what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last
shot he heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact
had heard the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would
not, in and of itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the
dent could have been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would
narrow the range during which the chrome topping was dented to between
Z-313 to Z-331 and make it more likely that the chrome topping was dented
at the same time that the windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier
as some have speculated.
On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the
statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the
grassy knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the
direct path of gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that
the head shot came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the
TSBD. Emmett Hudson, who was standing on the steps leading up to the
pergola, said that the shots sounded as if they came from behind him,
above his head and to his left. That would place the origin near the
fence. Zapruder felt that the head shot had come from behind him and
whistled past his right ear. Between these two witnesses and behind them
is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable shockwave at 24 ms.
before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot. Assuming the weapon was
aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough calculation of the velocity of
the bullet and the resultant angle of the shockwave. Although the
calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too difficult for me, a
rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet at about 1564.5
fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on either side
of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within the cone
of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.
How can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it
had been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have
been outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not
have been recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can
be found in the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he
was shown a very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the
viewpoint was looking right down the barrel of the gun. Given Mary
Moorman's position, the gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In
Moorman 2 we can see the head of a man peering over the fence, about 9
feet from the corner. Interestingly, this is the same spot where W&A
located the origin of the grassy knoll shot, unaware of the existence of
Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view of any weapon as we
might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever this man was, he
moved from that position very quickly after the head shot. There is no one
there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton photograph, taken
shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has never been
analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were unaware of
its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I found it
at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to properly
analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal the
presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher, Dale
Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a
person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.
Many witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films.
Some fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize
the danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the
grassy knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave
whizzing past them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe
their reactions was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can
see Hudson and his two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola.
They do not seem to be reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see
that two of the men are reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men
would not have reacted to the sound of a shockwave coming from so close
behind them. If the grassy knoll shot was the miss before the head shot,
we would expect to see these men react before the head shot. The fact that
they did not react until after the head shot would seem to indicate that
the head shot came from the grassy knoll.
Based on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is
more likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Existing
evidence can and should be examined further. More information can be
gleaned from existing data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data
could provide new clues and allow us to verify certain methods, such as
the acoustical studies. I urge other researchers to look for new evidence
and perform new analyses.
------
1. W. Peter Trower, ed., "Discovering Alvarez", (Chicago: The University
Press, 1987), pp. 210-224. Also HSCA Vol. I, pp. 428-442.
2. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, p.80, footnote 16
All this analysis might be worth discussing if it was about a recording of
the assassination but it was a recording taken about a minute afterward
and not from Dealey Plaza. You did all that hard work for nothing.
Silly. It was recorded in Dealey Plaza. Someone lied to you about it
being a minute after the shots.
If only you would be truthful with yourself, you wouldn't spout this
nonsense.
John Corbett
2020-09-09 00:03:31 UTC
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Post by BOZ
As I looked up to the window above, I saw a rifle being pulled back in the
window. It might have been resting on the window sill. I didn’t
see a man. I didn’t even see if it had a scope on it. … I
looked to my left and I could see both cars speeding off, the
President’s car and the car behind him.
(‘Lensman Heard Shots, Saw Gun’, Dallas Times Herald, 23
November 1963)
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