Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by bigdogPost by mainframetechPost by bigdogA refreshing bit of honesty from you.
Are you suggesting that I'm usually dishonest? Or lying as its called?
I don't think we are allowed to suggest something like that.
I suggest you keep it in mind.
Post by bigdogPost by mainframetechPost by bigdogPost by mainframetechHow
would you silence Oswald if you were in charge of the conspiracy? Just
pretend...:)
The question is based on the false premise that there was a conspiracy.
Bugliosi had the best answer for it. If Oswald were part of a conspiracy,
there would have been a getaway car waiting for him which would drive him
to his death.
LOL! You mean like a green rambler pulling up in front of the TSBD?
Which only Roger Craig claims to have seen and which Oswald never got into.
WRONG! A number of witnesses saw the Rambler pull up, and some of them
also saw an Oswald lookalike run down to it and get in. The witnesses
were Roger Craig, Marvin C. Robinson, Richard Carr, Helen Forrest, Roy
Cooper, and James Pennington. That's 6 witnesses. Don't you keep up with
http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com/2013/01/roger-craig-vs-lone-gunman
-zealots.html
So the LHO lookalike was the sniper on the 6th floor? Was he dressed
exactly like LHO? Explain how he got up to the 6th floor, fired the
shots, and got back down to the main floor without being seen. Where was
the PLP the whole time this was going on?
You forget that Oswald did NOT fire any shots out any window.
Yes I forgot that. How silly of me to forget something so obvious. How do
you prove a negative again?
The proof was supplied by timings taken of the DPD cop (Baker) who went
into the TSBD and saw Oswald in the lunchroom. There was not enough time
for Oswald to get from the 6th floor window through the pallets on the 6th
floor to the elevator, find it wasn't there, go to the steps and race down
the steps while women that worked there were spotted at various points and
times along the stairs and would have seen him running down.
Along with that more direct proof, there was also the proof that Oswald
did no practice with his rifle or he would have fixed the problems with
it, so he didn't plan to shoot at anyone.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechWe know he left the TSBD early though.
Early is a relative term. Earlier than what? We do know he left the
building without permission and failed to notify his supervisor after
reaching his boarding house that he was OK and would be reporting back to
work on Monday.
You got it!!! Right you are!!
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by bigdogPost by mainframetechPost by bigdogPost by mainframetechThe supervisor didn't have to know there was a conspiracy, or that any
cop had been assigned (or volunteered) to shoot Oswald. So stop trying to
make it a bigger operation.
Suppose the supervisor had assigned the cop who was supposed to shoot
Oswald somewhere nowhere near DP.
I wouldn't know if a supervisor did that or not. I doubt it though. It's not necessary to have a supervisor involved.
If you want to make sure your assigned cop is available to shoot Oswald, you better have his supervisor on board.
Don't be ridiculous! Tippit was all over the place looking for someone.
No evidence of a supervisor. And the first place he stopped to talk to
someone was Oswald.
If he was looking for LHO why not park on his street? If he was only
looking for someone, who would that be and how would he know he had the
right guy? Sounds more like a regular police officer responding to the
APB description which wasn't all that accurate.
We don't know if Tippit was looking for Oswald. There WAS a cop car
that stopped on Oswald's street, but I don't know who was driving.
Tippit's movements were not recorded at the dispatch point. So he was
moving on his own without any supervisor's direction, or any APB.
In 1967, Jackson told Dallas newsman Eddie Barker that the police response
to the Kennedy assassination was draining Oak Cliff of available officers
so he ordered R.C. Nelson and J.D. Tippit from their assigned districts
into the central Oak Cliff area.
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/12/tippit-murder-why-conspiracy-theorists.html
Talk about nonsense! I saw this statement in that article:
"Mr. Thomas claims as fact "that Tippit was not on his routine patrol as
the Warren Commission claimed" (a falsehood right off the bat since the
Warren Report never wrote such a thing in any of their discussions of the
Tippit case."
I could have laughed myself silly! The WCR never mentioned it, so he
takes that as gospel that Tippit was doing exactly what he was told as to
being where he should be! What it no one told the WC about Tippit's
movements, or what if the WC ignored anything said about Tippit's
movements? Baloney.
THEN we get proof that Tippit was where he was supposed to be:
At 12:55 p.m., Jackson contacted Tippit to make sure he had remained in
Oak Cliff:
"Jackson: 78.
Tippit: 78.
Jackson: You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?
Tippit: Lancaster and Eighth.
Jackson: You will be at large for any emergency that comes in.
Tippit: 10-4."
Now how does that prove that Tippit is where he's supposed to be? When
asked he only has only to name an address in that area, even if he was in
California, and he is believed! Ridiculous! Later the author says:
"There were no Glo-Co service stations located near Lancaster and Eighth
in 1963. [60] In fact, there were no service stations at all in the area
of Lancaster and Eighth (where Tippit radioed from)."
So he compounds his stupidity by using the previous mistake as proof
that Tippit was where he said he was!!!
I finally had to stop reading. It's total baloney. 5 People SAW
Tippit at the gas station, and they all knew him from before, and the same
for the Top 10 Record Shop where he stopped to make a phone call, instead
of using the dispatcher for police business. As well the citizen Tippit
stopped stated that he did it. All the movements of Tippit are recorded
here with witnesses. Check it out and stop putting up bull that depends
on the stupid WCR!
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by clavigerIt's possible Tippit did not connect LHO to that APB. One theory is LHO
changed directions when he saw the police car coming down the street,
which will always get a cop's attention. It could be Tippit thought he
was merely a local punk looking for an easy burglary situation.
W don't know if Oswald changed directions, and we don't know why Tippit
stopped him to talk. But since Tippit's main goal was to look for
someone, it's possible he stopped Oswald in furtherance of that goal.
Post by clavigerHad Tippit any suspicion LHO was the sniper he should have called in for
backup. As it was LHO caught this neighborhood cop completely off guard.
People had a tendency to underestimate LHO. He proved that was a deadly
mistake twice in one day.
We don't know that Tippit was looking for a shooter. He was on his
own. And Oswald was not someone that used weapons. We know that.
We know that LHO owned two weapons. We know he used one to murder a
police officer. We know he pulled his pistol inside the Texas Theater.
We know his rifle was found on the 6th floor of the building he left
without permission shortly after the shoots were fired from a window on
the same floor. We know he took a shot at General Walker because he
confessed to his wife. We know he practiced at "Lobfield" because he told
his wife and we know several witness at a public shooting range saw him
there and reported to the FBI.
Nope, we don't know for sure that Oswald killed Tippit. There are
conflicting stories about that. We don't know whether Marina was coerced
into saying that Oswald told her about Walker, because the whole Walker
story was baloney and a setup. That's been shown.
WE ABSOLUTELY KNOW that Oswald did NOT practice wit his rifle at any
place, or he would have had his rifle fixed, since it had all those
faults. The few witnesses at the rifle range were ignored by the FBI and
the WC. The story was bull anyway. They probably wanted some free
advertising.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by clavigerPost by mainframetechWRONG! As usual you fail to use your head for thinking. Whether a
person specializes or not, they can still multi-task for a special project
like murdering JFK!
Now, some more schooling for you seems necessary. I'm not "claiming"
anything, I'm making statements usually based on evidence. In the case of
evidence "pointing to Oswald", that's a crock. There was evidence that
suggested Oswald, but not pointed directly at him. The rifle was his, but
anyone might have pointed it out the window, and he left work, but there
was good reason for that and not because he was guilty of something, but
because he was being set up. There was NO bullets from the MC rifle that
hit or hurt anyone, and no one could prove otherwise. The Walker shooting
had nothing to do with Oswald, as per the evidence, as I've shown
previously.
The thing that causes Oswald's name to come up most often is people
like you running around irresponsibly saying there is tons of evidence,
when there really isn't much at all.
There is basic forensic evidence and a ton of circumstantial evidence.
There's no basic evidence that Oswald was the shooter. Ownership of
the rifle doesn't mean that the owner did any shooting.
How did his rifle get to the 6th floor of the TSBD building? If he did no
shooting why did he leave his job, go home to grab a pistol, shoot a DPD
officer who did not his gun drawn, and then try to shoot a police officer
inside a movie theater?
If you had listened earlier, you would have seen where I said that I
believe that Oswald was given a reason to take the rifle out of the
blanket in the garage and bring it in to work. The reason might have been
to sell it, or to trade it, or show it, or any normal reason. He
certainly didn't think of there being any problem, since he didn't take
his pistol with him, which he did when he thought there was going to be
trouble.
I have to add that the FBI checked Oswald's revolver and found that he
DID NOT fire it or even attempt to figure it at any officer in the
theater. There was a mark on one of the bullets but it wasn't from the
firing pin.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechWe know he didn't even do any practicing.
We know his wife said he did.
We know that his wife was compromised by the FBI, and I've shown the
proof.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by bigdogPost by mainframetechOh, A note for you. I don't dismiss evidence, but some of it might mean
something different to me than you. After all, you're still big on the
old, tired WC myths.
You mean like when I look at the recovered bullets as an indication that
Oswald's rifle was the murder weapon and you think it doesn't mean
anything. Or I look at Oswald's fingerprints in the sniper's nest as an
indication he was in the sniper's nest and you don't think it means
anything. Or I look at the fibers on the butt plate of the murder weapon
which matched Oswald's shirt as an indication he was the one who fired the
murder weapon and you don't think it means anything. I see where this is
going.
Talk about foolish! Finding a couple bullets that match the MC rifle
is a long way from finding bullets in a body, or proof that those bullets
hit or hurt anyone.
One bullet was found on the floorboard that matched CABL and a slightly
deformed bullet was found on a stretcher in ER that matched rifle barrel
striations. SSA Kinney claims he found that bullet on the floorboard and
put it on the stretcher. If true, completely unprofessional behavior but
maybe he was in shock.
There were 2 fragments found 'supposedly' on the front seat of the
limo, just under the impact point on the chrome overhead bar. That impact
could easily cause the damage to the bullet the fragments came from, and
then they fell to the front seat area. They hit nothing except the limo
overhead bar. Not a shred of proof that those fragments hit or hurt any
person.
Then where are the bullets that did hit and hurt persons inside the
Limousine? Did the sniper use bullets that evaporate into thin air?
Well, I'm glad you asked. One bullet was the one that hit JFK in the
forehead/temple area, which had to be a lead bullet. It dispersed through
to head. Custer the X-ray technician saw the proof in one of his side
head X-rays. Just where the bullet entered the forehead, the trail of
small metal fragments begins and proceeds toward the rear. As it goes it
enlarges in a cone shape toward the blow-out hole at the BOH of JFK that
was seen by 65 witnesses. Another bullet hit JFK in the upper back, and
the bullet was a 'weak' one and didn't penetrate more about an inch. It
was seen to fall out of the back of JFK by Custer, and he saw Finck grab
it with forceps and it 'disappeared' after that.
Another bullet went into the throat of JFK, and either came out the rear
from a wound that wasn't reported (for a good reason), or was dug out by
Humes and Boswell during their clandestine 'surgery' of the body. they
made it clear rto the X-ray technicians that they were looking for bullets
or fragments. And I believe the idea was that if they found them, they
would do away with them, so that there was NO identification of some other
gun than Oswald's.
We also had a bullet (at least one) that hit Connally from the back.
It was found during his surgery, and a nurse brought it out of the OR and
gave it to a law enforcement person. That bullet was never seen again.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechYou need to stop playing with abbreviations to look knowledgeable.
What's CABL? Any thing to do with TV?
I can't believe you asked this rookie question.
http://www.nationalacademies.org/printer/headlines/20071119.html
CABL or CBLA is no longer used by the FBI but at the time was used to
determine if the bullet fragments were similar or completely different.
In this case the fragments were similar. It can still be used by
prosecution or defense to do the same thing. The problem is CABL is not
definitive because of variation in batch, box, or even a single bullet.
I agree that the technique was flawed. There was also a method to do
the very same thing, but it was called NAA (Neutron Activation Analysis).
It was flawed also and was found not to be reliable.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechThe bullet that was found on the WRONG gurney at Parkland was determined
to be a test bullet that as used to replace the original CE399 bullet that
had a pointy nose, and not a round one like the MC bullets.
You act like none of us are familiar with this issue so you can spoon feed
us what you want to believe. Tell us how the "test bullet" got to
Parkland ER, who put it there, and why TGC (The Gigantic Conspiracy)
anticipated a need for a whole intact bullet to frame LHO.
AHA! TGC is another of your made up abbreviations that you didn't tell
your readers. 'The Gigantic Conspiracy'. I have news...it wasn't that
big, and didn't have to be.
Don't hand me a lot of bull about my not explaining what the story is
behind the replacement of the CE399 bullet. I've told it over and over,
and if you weren't listening, then you have the problem, not me. Here it
is briefly:
A bullet was snuck into Parkland hospital and left on a gurney in the
hall. It was the WRONG gurney, so it was stupid mistake. That hall was
open to most people, so there's no proof of who did it, though Jack Ruby
said hello to a reporter there (Seth Kantor). Later, Ruby said that he
had never been there, and the WC believed him over Kantor!!
The bullet that was left on the WRONG gurney (used by a little boy),
was found by a hospital employee and turned over to another employee.
They mentioned it to some SS agents and they took the bullet. It was
handed over to the FBI bullet custodian. there was NO proof that the
bullet found on the WRONG gurney had anything to do with the JFK murder.
Someone assumed that it came from Connally's gurney and had fallen out of
one of his wounds. The bullet was a typical pointed nose bullet.
Next day, the bullet custodian and some others from the FBI tested
Oswald's MC rifle by firing up to 60 bullets into various materials.
Wadding and solid items were used.
I believe that the custodian saved many bullets from those tests, and
used one of them that was fired into wadding or water and replaced the
CE399 pointy bullet with a round nosed MC type bullet from Oswald's MC
rifle. Now the custodian had a bullet that someone thought was from the
murder of JFK, and it was from Oswald's rifle. The custodian had to copy
a few initials from the original CFE399 bullet over to the fake CE399, but
he left some out and later it was found out.
later the bullet was checked against the MC rifle and it was found that
it matched, so now they had a bullet from the gurney that was from the MC
rifle. The original bullet was 'disappeared' by now.
It all would have been a beautiful plan except that later someone
thought there was some fooling going on with the CE399 bullet, so they
decided to show it to the people that had handled it the day of the
murder. They showed it to 4 men, 2 of whom were SS agents. All 4 men
refused to identify the bullet! The 2 SS agents, who should have put
their initialed on bullet evidence, refused to identify the bullet. The
other 2 men also refused, but one of them (Wright) said that he knew it
wasn't the right bullet because it was the wrong shape. He knew that the
original bullet was pointy nosed and not round nosed like the bullet they
showed him.
The plan would have been OK except for the witnesses that saw that it
wasn't the same bullet. The same problem gave away the Walker bullet
replacement. Walker himself had seen the bullet that was fired at him, so
when they tried to show of the fake bullet, he recognized immediately that
it wasn't the right bullet, and he wrote them and complained.
OK, Claviger, are you now going to remember the story of the
replacements? I don't ant to do it all over again, and I know you tend to
not listen or forget easily. Maybe you should save it for later.
Post by clavigerHow did TGC know what the wounds would be like ahead of time? The ER
staff did not even know there was a through-and-through wound in the torso
or head. That was only determined later at the autopsy. Seems like a
foolish thing to do if bullets are found inside the body and there end up
being more bullets than wounds.
The little conspiracy didn't know what specific wounds there would be.
But their plan didn't need for them to know. Why do you think they had to
know?
Post by clavigerSo you believe TGC was so stupid to bring the wrong kind of bullet with a
pointed nose? I'm not sure modern pointed bullets were being produced for
the Carcano in 1963 because of all the ammo made by WCC that was dumped on
the market and sold cheap for cheap milsurp rifles. It wasn't till later
when the Carcano rifle became a collectors item that there was demand for
modern ammo had to replace the original ammo that was hard to find.
::: sigh ::: Think it through. The wrong bullet from the WRONG gurney
was only in the hands of the custodian for one day before it was replaced
with an Oswald bullet. With all the furor and chaos going on, no one
would worry about the evidence as long as it was being saved. The
custodian (if asked) could say he wanted to collect all bullets and test
them all together. Or any number of reasons to put it off for one day.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by clavigerIf you believe this was a pre-fired bullet to frame LHO please explain why
TGC anticipated the need for a whole bullet compatible with a
through-and-through wound. CTs don't believe the SBT so why would the TGC
The little conspiracy didn't have to care about most problems, since
the bullet custodian was in their pocket. The bullet that was left on the
WRONG gurney at Parkland could be any bullet. It didn't have to go
through a person or any such complication. A plain old bullet from
someone's clip would do. It was going to be replaced in a day with an
Oswald bullet.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by clavigeranticipate this kind of perforating wound in the first place? Is this why
they chose the so called "Mannlicher-Carcano" rifle knowing of its
notorious reputation of high penetration of human targets so they could
plant a bullet?
Still playing with abbreviations? What's TGC? Otherwise the sentence
means nothing to me. It's not a matter of not believing the SBT.
You fail to understand that it had been proven to have NOT existed from the
beginning.
I do fail to understand that. Please elaborate.
I have explained why the SBT is dead many, many times. Are you now
going to tell me that you've made comments on it and yet can't remember
the whole thing that I've described? Or are you just wasting my time?
I'll give you the list of 3 reasons why it's dead, but only briefly. Go
look at the archives:
1. The prosectors after their investigation of the wound in the upper
back, looked hard for the bullet and the path for it, and failed at both
efforts. They finally got to the point where they said "There's NO EXIT"
for the bullet from the body of JFK. Humes offered that it probably
worked itself out during heart massage at Parkland. By saying that, he
admitted that he knew the bullet hadn't penetrated more than an inch into
the body of JFK and therefore could work out.
2. The Autopsy Report stated that "The pleura was INTACT", and since the
bullet stopped at the pleura, it couldn't go past without tearing or
puncturing it, and therefore couldn't get to the throat wound and exit,
and therefore couldn't go on to hit Connally.
3. The X-ray Technician, Jerrol Custer, stated under oath that when he
raised up the body to get a good shot, he saw a bullet sized fragment fall
out of the BACK of JFK. He saw Finck grab it with forceps and he never
saw it again.
Now those 3 reasons prove that the SBT is dead. BUT, if you were to
disprove any 2 of those reasons, any one of them would kill the SBT. So
the SBT is dead. The bullet never left the body of JFK.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechI don't see how anyone could anticipate any SPECIFIC kind of wound.
Me either.
Post by mainframetechI seriously doubt that anyone in any conspiracy "chose" the MC rifle.
Why not? Did you ever stop to think it might be an obvious clue, a
calling card from a certain group to let everyone know "We did that."?
Who could that be?
In going through the evidence, it appears from the overview to be a
conspiracy of mostly government people to me. I don't see the signs of
any other group involved.
Post by clavigerThe other theory, it was CIA ammo so they could supply LHO with all the
ammo he needed to get up to speed on this weapon and still have a
plausible situation of a loner buying a cheap rifle to shoot the
President. Maybe TGC was so brilliant they had his scope preset to make
it easier to hit a moving target going to right.
I'm not interested in you pretending to play with me. I don't see other
conspiracies, or even a "gigantic" conspiracy like you would like to think
it was.
Post by clavigerDo you find it curious the Sportsdrome opened one month before the
assassination so LHO could easily practice there? Not only that but
witnesses would see him shooting in public. TGC thought this was a
perfect set up, not counting on the FBI to drop the ball on this slam
dunk.
I don't find anything about that, since not only did the FBI reject it,
but the WC too. And they both wanted every bit of evidence they could get
a hold of against Oswald, since there was so little there.
I looked at it once myself, and reported to you what I found, though
I've forgotten the details of why it was a stupid idea.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechOswald wasn't getting anywhere trying to get in with some folks there
in Dallas, so it was suggested to him to get a rifle and look like he was
serious.
To impress whom?
Probably Cubans who were angry with JFK for not backing them up at the
Bay of Pigs. But I'm guessing. If he could get in with them, then he
could report to the FBI/others what they were doing. But they were
probably suspicious of him and he needed to look more serious about their
cause. By buying a rifle and taking his photo with it and his revolver,
he could look more rough and ready.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechHe went out and bought the cheapest rifle he could find. There was NO
consideration of the penetrating power of that cheapo, junk rifle.
I doubt LHO knew that either.
Post by mainframetechThe evidence is strong that the bullet on the WRONG gurney was planted.
They had to get a bullet in place that could later be used as proof that
Oswald had fired a bullet at JFK.
Why was it so important to have an extra bullet in ER? How did they know
there would be a reason for that bullet ahead of time?
What bullet in ER? The Connally bullet? The bullet found on the WRONG
gurney wasn't in ER. It was in the hall near the elevators.
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechIt didn't work though. The bullet left on the gurney was the wrong
shape, and later when it was replaced by an Oswald bullet, the replacement
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechwas caught by 4 men that had handled the original bullet.
Shows what a dumb idea it was to begin with. Somebody got chewed out for
that screw up right? Now TGC sounds more like the Keystone Cops than the
SPECTRE image promoted by CTs.
How would I know who got chewed out? Are you losing it again? The idea
worked great. To this day you and your LNs still believe that the CE399
bullet was one that killed JFK. You never try to explain how that was
done though....:)
Post by clavigerAgain we know all the issues surrounding this story. It's not nearly as
clear cut as you want it to be.
Depends on how well you know your information...:)
Post by clavigerPost by mainframetechPost by clavigerWouldn't they need to confirm the neck wound first before planting this
whole bullet? As it was, the ER doctors did not realize there was a
through-and-through bullet wound on the body at the time, thinking the
throat wound was an entrance wound. So how would TGC confirm there was
such a wound or did they just run the risk of planting the bullet, hoping
it did not make one too many bullets associated with the autopsy.
Post by mainframetechAnd all the other items we've talked to death, and they don't show any more
than the bullets that connect to no harm to anyone. But Your WC lawyers told you Oswald was the guy, so you go with it to the end.
Chris
