Discussion:
What is a lead snowstorm?
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claviger
2019-04-06 00:07:43 UTC
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Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
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Xrays
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Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds

X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.

A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).

An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-06 16:38:46 UTC
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Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
Grizzlie Antagonist
2019-04-07 00:35:54 UTC
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Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-08 20:10:12 UTC
Reply
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Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.

Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.

Tests establish they could and did.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm

Hank
Grizzlie Antagonist
2019-04-09 13:04:27 UTC
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Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.
Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.
Tests establish they could and did.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
Hank
In the spring of 1969, Donahue made a phone call to Edgewood. Luckily,
Olivier was still employed there. Donahue got Olivier on the line and,
without going into detail, explained that he was a weapons expert
who’d been investigating the assassination. He said he’d
be very interested in seeing the results of Olivier’s head-shot
test firings firsthand. Would it be possible to come and visit him?
Olivier said he didn’t see why not, and the two set an appointment
for the following week.

Edgewood Arsenal is located an hour or so north of Baltimore on the shores
of the Chesapeake Bay. The compound is part of the Army’s Aberdeen
Proving Grounds, a sprawling facility where in the 1960s the instruments
of war —everything from artillery rounds to napalm — were
tested and refined. Olivier was a veterinarian by training and responsible
for studying the effects of gunshots on animals in the arsenal’s
wound ballistics lab. 3 Donahue found Olivier to be a friendly man with
graying hair and wire-rimmed glasses. The men exchanged pleasantries.
Donahue asked about the doctor’s attempts to duplicate the
President’s head wound. Olivier explained he had test-fired
Carcano rounds into ten human skulls filled with gelatin. The gelatin
simulated the human brain.*

“Did the bullets break up?” Donahue asked.

“Yes, they did,” Olivier replied.

“How big were the fragments? I mean . . . How many were there?”

“Well, in each case, I could find only two or three large fragments,
but together they seemed to account for the bulk of the bullet’s
mass.”

“So, the bullets didn’t disintegrate or explode, as far as you could
see?” Donahue asked.

“No,” Olivier replied, “they did not.”

Donahue asked if any of these fragments had somehow been deposited on the outside table of the skull.

“No,” Olivier said. “Actually, I have the skulls here. I brought them out in anticipation of your visit. Would you like to see them?”

Olivier began pulling human skulls out of two plastic bags. Donahue quickly made a mental note. Olivier had obviously fired his shots into the skulls slightly above and to the right of the occipital protuberance—the spot Humes had misidentified as the entrance wound in Kennedy’s skull.

Predictably, the resulting exit wounds were nowhere close to where Kennedy’s exit wound was located. Most were in the face of the skull; shattering the bones in the forehead area. Olivier went on to state that of the ten test skulls only one had fallen off the podium he’d placed them on when he fired. Donahue quickly thought back to the violent movement of Kennedy’s head on the Zapruder film.

After Olivier finished speaking, Donahue looked at him. “Dr. Olivier, I recently had the opportunity to speak with Dr. Russell Fisher, the Maryland state medical examiner. Do you know him?

Fisher was on a panel put together last February by Attorney General
Clark to examine the X rays and photographs from the Kennedy
autopsy.”

“No, I don’t know him,” Olivier said. “I think I heard about that panel, though. Had something to do with the Garrison case, didn’t it?”

“Yes, I believe it did,” Donahue said. “At any rate, Fisher’s group uncovered some rather interesting information. It seems Humes misplaced the location of the entrance wound. Actually, it was one hundred millimeters above the occipital protuberance. They also found a fragment on the exterior of the skull which they concluded could have only come from a ricochet.”

“Really?” Olivier said. His friendly manner began to fade like sunlight on a winter afternoon.

Donahue continued: “I’ve extrapolated the trajectory of the bullet based on Fisher’s locations of the wounds, and ... ah, I know this sounds incredible, but I believe there is a distinct possibility the headshot may have been fired accidentally by a Secret Service agent in the left-rear seat of the follow-up car. The trajectory leads right to that point.”

Olivier stared at Donahue for a moment. Then he spoke.

‘‘Did you discuss this possibility with Dr. Fisher?”

‘‘Yes, I did,” Donahue replied. “And you know what he said? He said, ‘That would certainly explain the strange antics of the government.’ ”

Olivier remained expressionless. He said nothing.

As far as Donahue was concerned, there was nothing left to say. Or nothing left to learn from Olivier. He thanked the doctor for his time, feigned a pressing commitment in Baltimore, and departed.

The meeting with Olivier had been revealing, Donahue thought as he drove home. Just as he’d suspected, the Carcano bullet would not have disintegrated or sheared a fragment onto the outer table of the skull. And the bit about only one skull falling off the podium was equally telling. Olivier had fired from the same distance Oswald supposedly had. Yet clearly the Carcano round did not transmit as much energy to the skull as the shot that had hit Kennedy. Otherwise, Olivier’s skulls would have gone flying.


*The following conversation has been reconstructed from the recollections of Howard Donahue.

- "Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK", Bonar Menninger, (St. Martin's Press 1992)
Mitch Todd
2019-04-14 22:04:04 UTC
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Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.
Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.
Tests establish they could and did.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
Hank
In the spring of 1969, Donahue made a phone call to Edgewood. Luckily,
Olivier was still employed there. Donahue got Olivier on the line and,
without going into detail, explained that he was a weapons expert
who’d been investigating the assassination. He said he’d
be very interested in seeing the results of Olivier’s head-shot
test firings firsthand. Would it be possible to come and visit him?
Olivier said he didn’t see why not, and the two set an appointment
for the following week.
Edgewood Arsenal is located an hour or so north of Baltimore on the shores
of the Chesapeake Bay. The compound is part of the Army’s Aberdeen
Proving Grounds, a sprawling facility where in the 1960s the instruments
of war —everything from artillery rounds to napalm — were
tested and refined. Olivier was a veterinarian by training and responsible
for studying the effects of gunshots on animals in the arsenal’s
wound ballistics lab. 3 Donahue found Olivier to be a friendly man with
graying hair and wire-rimmed glasses. The men exchanged pleasantries.
Donahue asked about the doctor’s attempts to duplicate the
President’s head wound. Olivier explained he had test-fired
Carcano rounds into ten human skulls filled with gelatin. The gelatin
simulated the human brain.*
“Did the bullets break up?” Donahue asked.
“Yes, they did,” Olivier replied.
“How big were the fragments? I mean . . . How many were there?”
“Well, in each case, I could find only two or three large fragments,
but together they seemed to account for the bulk of the bullet’s
mass.”
“So, the bullets didn’t disintegrate or explode, as far as you could
see?” Donahue asked.
“No,” Olivier replied, “they did not.”
Donahue asked if any of these fragments had somehow been deposited on the outside table of the skull.
“No,” Olivier said. “Actually, I have the skulls here. I brought them out in anticipation of your visit. Would you like to see them?”
Olivier began pulling human skulls out of two plastic bags. Donahue quickly made a mental note. Olivier had obviously fired his shots into the skulls slightly above and to the right of the occipital protuberance—the spot Humes had misidentified as the entrance wound in Kennedy’s skull.
Predictably, the resulting exit wounds were nowhere close to where Kennedy’s exit wound was located. Most were in the face of the skull; shattering the bones in the forehead area. Olivier went on to state that of the ten test skulls only one had fallen off the podium he’d placed them on when he fired. Donahue quickly thought back to the violent movement of Kennedy’s head on the Zapruder film.
After Olivier finished speaking, Donahue looked at him. “Dr. Olivier, I recently had the opportunity to speak with Dr. Russell Fisher, the Maryland state medical examiner. Do you know him?
Fisher was on a panel put together last February by Attorney General
Clark to examine the X rays and photographs from the Kennedy
autopsy.”
“No, I don’t know him,” Olivier said. “I think I heard about that panel, though. Had something to do with the Garrison case, didn’t it?”
“Yes, I believe it did,” Donahue said. “At any rate, Fisher’s group uncovered some rather interesting information. It seems Humes misplaced the location of the entrance wound. Actually, it was one hundred millimeters above the occipital protuberance. They also found a fragment on the exterior of the skull which they concluded could have only come from a ricochet.”
“Really?” Olivier said. His friendly manner began to fade like sunlight on a winter afternoon.
Donahue continued: “I’ve extrapolated the trajectory of the bullet based on Fisher’s locations of the wounds, and ... ah, I know this sounds incredible, but I believe there is a distinct possibility the headshot may have been fired accidentally by a Secret Service agent in the left-rear seat of the follow-up car. The trajectory leads right to that point.”
Olivier stared at Donahue for a moment. Then he spoke.
‘‘Did you discuss this possibility with Dr. Fisher?”
‘‘Yes, I did,” Donahue replied. “And you know what he said? He said, ‘That would certainly explain the strange antics of the government.’ ”
Olivier remained expressionless. He said nothing.
As far as Donahue was concerned, there was nothing left to say. Or nothing left to learn from Olivier. He thanked the doctor for his time, feigned a pressing commitment in Baltimore, and departed.
The meeting with Olivier had been revealing, Donahue thought as he drove home. Just as he’d suspected, the Carcano bullet would not have disintegrated or sheared a fragment onto the outer table of the skull. And the bit about only one skull falling off the podium was equally telling. Olivier had fired from the same distance Oswald supposedly had. Yet clearly the Carcano round did not transmit as much energy to the skull as the shot that had hit Kennedy. Otherwise, Olivier’s skulls would have gone flying.
*The following conversation has been reconstructed from the recollections of Howard Donahue.
- "Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK", Bonar Menninger, (St. Martin's Press 1992)
The most important sentence in the whole except is the last
one, that the "conversation has been reconstructed from the
recollections of Howard Donahue." As far as I know, there is
no other source purporting that Fisher and his panel
concluded that JFK was hit by a fragment from a ricochet.
The Panel's report never mentions such a thing, not even
as a possibility. It's just too hard to reconcile the
actual record with what Menninger claimed that Donahue
claimed.

It's a thread that runs all through the book. Menninger
simply repeats whatever Donahue told him without any
attempt to verify or confirm anything Donahue said.
BT George
2019-04-19 06:02:28 UTC
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Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
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Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.
Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.
Tests establish they could and did.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
Hank
In the spring of 1969, Donahue made a phone call to Edgewood. Luckily,
Olivier was still employed there. Donahue got Olivier on the line and,
without going into detail, explained that he was a weapons expert
who’d been investigating the assassination. He said he’d
be very interested in seeing the results of Olivier’s head-shot
test firings firsthand. Would it be possible to come and visit him?
Olivier said he didn’t see why not, and the two set an appointment
for the following week.
Edgewood Arsenal is located an hour or so north of Baltimore on the shores
of the Chesapeake Bay. The compound is part of the Army’s Aberdeen
Proving Grounds, a sprawling facility where in the 1960s the instruments
of war —everything from artillery rounds to napalm — were
tested and refined. Olivier was a veterinarian by training and responsible
for studying the effects of gunshots on animals in the arsenal’s
wound ballistics lab. 3 Donahue found Olivier to be a friendly man with
graying hair and wire-rimmed glasses. The men exchanged pleasantries.
Donahue asked about the doctor’s attempts to duplicate the
President’s head wound. Olivier explained he had test-fired
Carcano rounds into ten human skulls filled with gelatin. The gelatin
simulated the human brain.*
“Did the bullets break up?” Donahue asked.
“Yes, they did,” Olivier replied.
“How big were the fragments? I mean . . . How many were there?”
“Well, in each case, I could find only two or three large fragments,
but together they seemed to account for the bulk of the bullet’s
mass.”
“So, the bullets didn’t disintegrate or explode, as far as you could
see?” Donahue asked.
“No,” Olivier replied, “they did not.”
Donahue asked if any of these fragments had somehow been deposited on the outside table of the skull.
“No,” Olivier said. “Actually, I have the skulls here. I brought them out in anticipation of your visit. Would you like to see them?”
Olivier began pulling human skulls out of two plastic bags. Donahue quickly made a mental note. Olivier had obviously fired his shots into the skulls slightly above and to the right of the occipital protuberance—the spot Humes had misidentified as the entrance wound in Kennedy’s skull.
Predictably, the resulting exit wounds were nowhere close to where Kennedy’s exit wound was located. Most were in the face of the skull; shattering the bones in the forehead area. Olivier went on to state that of the ten test skulls only one had fallen off the podium he’d placed them on when he fired. Donahue quickly thought back to the violent movement of Kennedy’s head on the Zapruder film.
After Olivier finished speaking, Donahue looked at him. “Dr. Olivier, I recently had the opportunity to speak with Dr. Russell Fisher, the Maryland state medical examiner. Do you know him?
Fisher was on a panel put together last February by Attorney General
Clark to examine the X rays and photographs from the Kennedy
autopsy.”
“No, I don’t know him,” Olivier said. “I think I heard about that panel, though. Had something to do with the Garrison case, didn’t it?”
“Yes, I believe it did,” Donahue said. “At any rate, Fisher’s group uncovered some rather interesting information. It seems Humes misplaced the location of the entrance wound. Actually, it was one hundred millimeters above the occipital protuberance. They also found a fragment on the exterior of the skull which they concluded could have only come from a ricochet.”
“Really?” Olivier said. His friendly manner began to fade like sunlight on a winter afternoon.
Donahue continued: “I’ve extrapolated the trajectory of the bullet based on Fisher’s locations of the wounds, and ... ah, I know this sounds incredible, but I believe there is a distinct possibility the headshot may have been fired accidentally by a Secret Service agent in the left-rear seat of the follow-up car. The trajectory leads right to that point.”
Olivier stared at Donahue for a moment. Then he spoke.
‘‘Did you discuss this possibility with Dr. Fisher?”
‘‘Yes, I did,” Donahue replied. “And you know what he said? He said, ‘That would certainly explain the strange antics of the government.’ ”
Olivier remained expressionless. He said nothing.
As far as Donahue was concerned, there was nothing left to say. Or nothing left to learn from Olivier. He thanked the doctor for his time, feigned a pressing commitment in Baltimore, and departed.
The meeting with Olivier had been revealing, Donahue thought as he drove home. Just as he’d suspected, the Carcano bullet would not have disintegrated or sheared a fragment onto the outer table of the skull. And the bit about only one skull falling off the podium was equally telling. Olivier had fired from the same distance Oswald supposedly had. Yet clearly the Carcano round did not transmit as much energy to the skull as the shot that had hit Kennedy. Otherwise, Olivier’s skulls would have gone flying.
*The following conversation has been reconstructed from the recollections of Howard Donahue.
- "Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK", Bonar Menninger, (St. Martin's Press 1992)
And against those memories (as recorded by Menninger) we have this...

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/6jxb3VnP-Jw/h56mHIa7BwAJ

Can anyone tell me that it doesn't look like the WCC Carcano bullet failed
badly enough to create not only large fragments, but many small ones?
claviger
2019-04-20 16:34:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BT George
Can anyone tell me that it doesn't look like the WCC Carcano
bullet failed badly enough to create not only large fragments,
but many small ones?
From what I read there are Large fragments, Medium Fragments, Small
Fragments, and Tiny fragments that altogether remind the X-ray Technician
and Doctor of a tiny Snowstorm. If you read the information I posted from
Medical websites, they explain why the use of that term is significant to
professionals in the medical field of wound analysis. Those wound results
indicate a certain kind of bullet which is a clue to what type weapon was
used.
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-09 19:08:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.
Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.
Chicken. You can't prove what you claim.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Tests establish they could and did.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
Hank
BOZ
2019-05-05 21:36:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.
Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.
Chicken. You can't prove what you claim.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Tests establish they could and did.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
Hank
The lead storm has something to do with global warming?
claviger
2019-04-09 19:19:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.
First, fragmentation is possible for most any bullet. Some are designed
to fragment and some are not. Some are designed to tumble and some are
not. The Carcano 6.5mm was designed to do neither. When it did fragment
it was usually in larger pieces.

The consistent response Donahue got from years of inquiry is the Carcano
was a tough, rugged, well made bullet, least likely to fragment, the
reason why Big Game Hunters in Africa preferred it. A fragmenting bullet
is made for killing enemy soldiers, not a charging Rhino or Lion. The
Carcano was popular with hunters in Africa and Alaska.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.
Could not do what? My understanding is many bullets
can fragment, but only a few cause a lead snowstorm.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Tests establish they could and did.
Fragment or snowstorm?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-13 03:32:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.
First, fragmentation is possible for most any bullet.
You're contradicting the supposed expert quoted in the initial post at the
start of this thread. He is quoted as saying "An x-ray of an individual
shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet, with the exception of the
M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even
if the bullet has perforated bone such as the skull or spine. If any
fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number, very fine and located
at the point the bullet perforated bone."

Olivier tested Oswald's rifle and Oswald's ammo. He determined the bullet
would fragment, and that it could do what Oswald's ammo is claimed by the
Warren Commission was done: Hit the skull, leave small fragments of lead
in the brain, have most of the remainder of the bullet exit the skull, and
leave two large fragments.
Post by claviger
Some are designed
to fragment and some are not. Some are designed to tumble and some are
not. The Carcano 6.5mm was designed to do neither. When it did fragment
it was usually in larger pieces.
Small pieces were left in the with the skull gelatin, the brain simulant,
in Olivier's tests.
Post by claviger
The consistent response Donahue got from years of inquiry is the Carcano
was a tough, rugged, well made bullet, least likely to fragment, the
reason why Big Game Hunters in Africa preferred it. A fragmenting bullet
is made for killing enemy soldiers, not a charging Rhino or Lion. The
Carcano was popular with hunters in Africa and Alaska.
Hilarious. You have it precisely backwards. Oswald used copper jacketed
*military* surplus ammo. By the Hague convention hunting ammo (that
expands and fragments) is banned in warfare. It's usually claimed the
Geneva Convention outlawed the use of fragmenting ammo. It was the Hague
Convention.

Hunting ammo is called "hunting ammo" for a reason. It's used for hunting.
Animals, like Elk or deer or Rhino or Lions. Not humans. The Carcano can
fire either hunting ammo or military ammo. Hunters use hunting ammo for a
reason. Because it fragments, it causes more damage.
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.
Could not do what? My understanding is many bullets
can fragment, but only a few cause a lead snowstorm.
"lead snowstorm" is not a technical term nor an accurate one. The bullet
that struck JFK left behind small particles of lead within the head. They
could be seen in the x-rays. Olivier testified his testing determined that
Oswald's bullets could and did leave behind numerous small fragments in
the head. Here, let me quote it again:

== QUOTE ==

Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside
of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments
without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were
obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment.
We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within
the cranial cavity.

== UNQUOTE ==
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Tests establish they could and did.
Fragment or snowstorm?
Bullshit question. Only snow can cause a snowstorm. What is your
definition of a "lead snowstorm"?

Small fragments were left behind in JFK's brain and in the gelatin used as
a brain simulant in Olivier's tests. The tests established that Oswald's
bullets could cause the damage seen in JFK's head.
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
Hank
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-14 18:21:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.
First, fragmentation is possible for most any bullet.
You're contradicting the supposed expert quoted in the initial post at the
start of this thread. He is quoted as saying "An x-ray of an individual
shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet, with the exception of the
M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even
if the bullet has perforated bone such as the skull or spine. If any
fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number, very fine and located
at the point the bullet perforated bone."
Olivier tested Oswald's rifle and Oswald's ammo. He determined the bullet
would fragment, and that it could do what Oswald's ammo is claimed by the
Warren Commission was done: Hit the skull, leave small fragments of lead
in the brain, have most of the remainder of the bullet exit the skull, and
leave two large fragments.
Post by claviger
Some are designed
to fragment and some are not. Some are designed to tumble and some are
not. The Carcano 6.5mm was designed to do neither. When it did fragment
it was usually in larger pieces.
Small pieces were left in the with the skull gelatin, the brain simulant,
in Olivier's tests.
NOT like the DOZENS ofDUSTLIKE pieces left in JFK's head and NO large
jacket fragments. Oliver is irrelevant. Apples and oranges.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by claviger
The consistent response Donahue got from years of inquiry is the Carcano
was a tough, rugged, well made bullet, least likely to fragment, the
reason why Big Game Hunters in Africa preferred it. A fragmenting bullet
is made for killing enemy soldiers, not a charging Rhino or Lion. The
Carcano was popular with hunters in Africa and Alaska.
Hilarious. You have it precisely backwards. Oswald used copper jacketed
*military* surplus ammo. By the Hague convention hunting ammo (that
expands and fragments) is banned in warfare. It's usually claimed the
Geneva Convention outlawed the use of fragmenting ammo. It was the Hague
Convention.
Hunting ammo is called "hunting ammo" for a reason. It's used for hunting.
Animals, like Elk or deer or Rhino or Lions. Not humans. The Carcano can
fire either hunting ammo or military ammo. Hunters use hunting ammo for a
reason. Because it fragments, it causes more damage.
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.
Could not do what? My understanding is many bullets
can fragment, but only a few cause a lead snowstorm.
"lead snowstorm" is not a technical term nor an accurate one. The bullet
that struck JFK left behind small particles of lead within the head. They
could be seen in the x-rays. Olivier testified his testing determined that
Oswald's bullets could and did leave behind numerous small fragments in
== QUOTE ==
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside
of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments
without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were
obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment.
We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within
the cranial cavity.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Tests establish they could and did.
Fragment or snowstorm?
Bullshit question. Only snow can cause a snowstorm. What is your
definition of a "lead snowstorm"?
SNOWSTORM describes the DOZENS of DUSTLIKE fragments left in JFK's head.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Small fragments were left behind in JFK's brain and in the gelatin used as
a brain simulant in Olivier's tests. The tests established that Oswald's
bullets could cause the damage seen in JFK's head.
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-15 19:51:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Grizzlie Antagonist
This may not be very clear to a Warren Commission supporter such as
yourself, but I imagine that claviger's point from this article is that
Oswald's MC round is unlikely to have left the lead snowstorm found inside
JFK's skull.
Except test performed by Dr. Olivier established Oswald's bullet would
break up, some large fragments would exit the skull, exactly as happened
in the assassination, and the copper core would leave small fragments
behind in the test, in the gelatin. That's what we saw in the
assassination as well.
First, fragmentation is possible for most any bullet.
You're contradicting the supposed expert quoted in the initial post at the
start of this thread. He is quoted as saying "An x-ray of an individual
shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet, with the exception of the
M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even
if the bullet has perforated bone such as the skull or spine. If any
fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number, very fine and located
at the point the bullet perforated bone."
Olivier tested Oswald's rifle and Oswald's ammo. He determined the bullet
would fragment, and that it could do what Oswald's ammo is claimed by the
Warren Commission was done: Hit the skull, leave small fragments of lead
in the brain, have most of the remainder of the bullet exit the skull, and
leave two large fragments.
Post by claviger
Some are designed
to fragment and some are not. Some are designed to tumble and some are
not. The Carcano 6.5mm was designed to do neither. When it did fragment
it was usually in larger pieces.
Small pieces were left in the with the skull gelatin, the brain simulant,
in Olivier's tests.
NOT like the DOZENS ofDUSTLIKE pieces left in JFK's head and NO large
jacket fragments. Oliver is irrelevant. Apples and oranges.
So now you're **quibbling** over the size of the fragments left in the
brain compared to the size of the fragments left in the brain simulant
gelatin. Wow. Another in a long line of quibbles by CTs about how close
some test result must be before it can be accepted.

The only perfect answer for a CT is there is no perfect answer and no test
result is acceptable. If the test result is off by some small percentage
of weight or number or anything else measurable, then it must be ignored
and therefore doesn't point to Oswald.

And of course, if the test result matches precisely, then it's obviously a
rigged test designed only to frame Oswald.

You guys are never surprising in that regard.

But here's the point you're ignoring... you're not the expert, your
judgment is not meaningful and does not rise to the level of evidence for
us to consider.

You know who is the expert, whose judgment does rise to the level of
evidence that should be considered?

Dr. Olivier's.

The same guy you just told us to ignore as irrelevant. He's not irrelevant
and neither is his opinion. Your opinion is the irrelevant one. And the
one that can safely be ignored?

No wonder you're lost in the woods wandering around looking for a way out
and going in circles. You ignore the evidence and credit your own opinion
as meaningful. You lead yourself astray and don't even realize that's what
you're doing.

Hank
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by claviger
The consistent response Donahue got from years of inquiry is the Carcano
was a tough, rugged, well made bullet, least likely to fragment, the
reason why Big Game Hunters in Africa preferred it. A fragmenting bullet
is made for killing enemy soldiers, not a charging Rhino or Lion. The
Carcano was popular with hunters in Africa and Alaska.
Hilarious. You have it precisely backwards. Oswald used copper jacketed
*military* surplus ammo. By the Hague convention hunting ammo (that
expands and fragments) is banned in warfare. It's usually claimed the
Geneva Convention outlawed the use of fragmenting ammo. It was the Hague
Convention.
Hunting ammo is called "hunting ammo" for a reason. It's used for hunting.
Animals, like Elk or deer or Rhino or Lions. Not humans. The Carcano can
fire either hunting ammo or military ammo. Hunters use hunting ammo for a
reason. Because it fragments, it causes more damage.
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anyone claiming Oswald's bullets couldn't do that is quite simply wrong.
Could not do what? My understanding is many bullets
can fragment, but only a few cause a lead snowstorm.
"lead snowstorm" is not a technical term nor an accurate one. The bullet
that struck JFK left behind small particles of lead within the head. They
could be seen in the x-rays. Olivier testified his testing determined that
Oswald's bullets could and did leave behind numerous small fragments in
== QUOTE ==
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside
of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments
without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were
obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment.
We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within
the cranial cavity.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Tests establish they could and did.
Fragment or snowstorm?
Bullshit question. Only snow can cause a snowstorm. What is your
definition of a "lead snowstorm"?
SNOWSTORM describes the DOZENS of DUSTLIKE fragments left in JFK's head.
And at least one fragment large enough to be removed from the brain and entered into evidence.

== QUOTE ==
Commander HUMES - In further evaluating this head wound, I will refer back to the X-rays which we had previously prepared. These had disclosed to us multiple minute fragments of radio opaque material traversing a line from the wound in the occiput to just above the right eye, with a rather sizable fragment visible by X-ray just above the right eye. These tiny fragments that were seen dispersed through the substance of the brain in between Were, in fact, just that extremely minute, less than 1 mm. in size for the most part...
Mr. SPECTER - Approximately how many fragments were observed, Dr. Humes, on the X-ray?
Commander HUMES - I would have to refer to them again, but I would say between 30 or 40 tiny dustlike particle fragments of radio opaque material, with the exception of this one I previously mentioned which was seen to be above and very slightly behind the right orbit.
== UNQUOTE ==

Again, your opinion of what's pertinent here is meaningless. Olivier thought otherwise:

== QUOTE ==
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity.
...
Mr. SPECTER. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, let's see. We found that this bullet could do exactly--could make the type of wound that the President received.
Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car.
This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.
== UNQUOTE ==

His opinion is evidence, as he's qualified as an expert to reach conclusions.

Your opinion, and your opinion of his opinion, is meaningless.

Hank
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Small fragments were left behind in JFK's brain and in the gelatin used as
a brain simulant in Olivier's tests. The tests established that Oswald's
bullets could cause the damage seen in JFK's head.
Post by claviger
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
Hank
b***@gmail.com
2019-04-16 01:39:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
There is no such thing as a lead snowstorm. Snow storms contain snow. Not
lead.


Thanks, Henry. An important distinction. I for one thought I was
*actually* looking at snow. But that's why you're so much more enlightened
than everyone else.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists take comfort in analogies and pretend there is
something unique about JFK's wounds regarding the small fragments left
behind in JFK's head.


Lone Nut WC apologists take comfort in picking apart meaningless semantics
and pretend there is something profound or relevant in their
deconstruction.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
The only perfect answer for a CT is there is no perfect answer and no test
result is acceptable. If the test result is off by some small percentage
of weight or number or anything else measurable, then it must be ignored
and therefore doesn't point to Oswald.
I'll take a look at some test results conducted with CE139, simulating the
projection and condition of CE399 from a similar distance and time frame.
Got any you can share, perhaps from Edgewood? Or are those just nitpicky
details of no significance?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And of course, if the test result matches precisely, then it's obviously a
rigged test designed only to frame Oswald.
Obviously this is in no way a strawman.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
But here's the point you're ignoring... you're not the expert, your
judgment is not meaningful and does not rise to the level of evidence for
us to consider.
You know who is the expert, whose judgment does rise to the level of
evidence that should be considered?
Dolce?

http://22november1963.org.uk/edgewood-arsenal-bullet-tests#dolce-letter

Riley?

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/R%20Disk/Riley%20Joe/Item%2004.pdf

Any of these people?

http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/boh/parkland_boh/parkland_wound.htm
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Dr. Olivier's.
Oh. The veterinarian.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
The same guy you just told us to ignore as irrelevant. He's not irrelevant
and neither is his opinion. Your opinion is the irrelevant one. And the
one that can safely be ignored?
Curious, but did any of Olivier's tests explain why the larger bullet
fragments wound up towards the back, seeing as objects of greater mass
carry greater momentum?
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-18 01:37:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
There is no such thing as a lead snowstorm. Snow storms contain snow. Not
lead.
Thanks, Henry. An important distinction. I for one thought I was
*actually* looking at snow. But that's why you're so much more enlightened
than everyone else.
Silly. In English we sometimes use an anlogy to something we already
understand to explain something that we don't understand. There was no
actual snowstorm involved. It just describes the PATTERN of disperal.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists take comfort in analogies and pretend there is
something unique about JFK's wounds regarding the small fragments left
behind in JFK's head.
Well, there is. There were no other known cases of a Carcano using
explosive bullets which leaves behind dustlike lead fragments. All the
tests show larger fragments.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Lone Nut WC apologists take comfort in picking apart meaningless semantics
and pretend there is something profound or relevant in their
deconstruction.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
The only perfect answer for a CT is there is no perfect answer and no test
result is acceptable. If the test result is off by some small percentage
of weight or number or anything else measurable, then it must be ignored
and therefore doesn't point to Oswald.
I'll take a look at some test results conducted with CE139, simulating the
projection and condition of CE399 from a similar distance and time frame.
Got any you can share, perhaps from Edgewood? Or are those just nitpicky
details of no significance?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And of course, if the test result matches precisely, then it's obviously a
rigged test designed only to frame Oswald.
Obviously this is in no way a strawman.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
But here's the point you're ignoring... you're not the expert, your
judgment is not meaningful and does not rise to the level of evidence for
us to consider.
You know who is the expert, whose judgment does rise to the level of
evidence that should be considered?
Dolce?
http://22november1963.org.uk/edgewood-arsenal-bullet-tests#dolce-letter
Riley?
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/R%20Disk/Riley%20Joe/Item%2004.pdf
Any of these people?
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/boh/parkland_boh/parkland_wound.htm
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Dr. Olivier's.
Oh. The veterinarian.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
The same guy you just told us to ignore as irrelevant. He's not irrelevant
and neither is his opinion. Your opinion is the irrelevant one. And the
one that can safely be ignored?
Curious, but did any of Olivier's tests explain why the larger bullet
fragments wound up towards the back, seeing as objects of greater mass
carry greater momentum?
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-26 00:51:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
There is no such thing as a lead snowstorm. Snow storms contain snow. Not
lead.
Thanks, Henry. An important distinction. I for one thought I was
*actually* looking at snow. But that's why you're so much more enlightened
than everyone else.
That's still a logical fallacy of an appeal to ridicule. Learn the logical
fallacies and seek to avoid them.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists take comfort in analogies and pretend there is
something unique about JFK's wounds regarding the small fragments left
behind in JFK's head.
Lone Nut WC apologists take comfort in picking apart meaningless semantics
and pretend there is something profound or relevant in their
deconstruction.
You failed to address my point.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
The only perfect answer for a CT is there is no perfect answer and no test
result is acceptable. If the test result is off by some small percentage
of weight or number or anything else measurable, then it must be ignored
and therefore doesn't point to Oswald.
I'll take a look at some test results conducted with CE139, simulating the
projection and condition of CE399 from a similar distance and time frame.
Got any you can share, perhaps from Edgewood? Or are those just nitpicky
details of no significance?
That's the logical fallacy of a red herring. We were talking about the
head shot. You just ignored that and are trying to divert the discussion
to the other bullet (that some claim wounded both men).

Now, minus your misdirection, do you anything to add on the subject of the
supposed 'lead snowstorm'?
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And of course, if the test result matches precisely, then it's obviously a
rigged test designed only to frame Oswald.
Obviously this is in no way a strawman.
No, it's not. I've debated CTs for nearly three decades online. I've seen
it argued repeatedly. The CT argues something they read in a CT book. The
actual language is quoted back to them, showing the context. And showing
the book they read was taking the claim out of context. The CT says that
just establishes Oswald was being framed.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
But here's the point you're ignoring... you're not the expert, your
judgment is not meaningful and does not rise to the level of evidence for
us to consider.
You know who is the expert, whose judgment does rise to the level of
evidence that should be considered?
Dolce?
http://22november1963.org.uk/edgewood-arsenal-bullet-tests#dolce-letter
Dolce says he agrees Oswald was the lone shooter: "I feel that Oswald was
the sole assassin who fired the three shots." He has a different view on
the sequence of events, but does not criticize the head shot tests in any
way.
Post by b***@gmail.com
Riley?
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/R%20Disk/Riley%20Joe/Item%2004.pdf
What tests did Riley conduct and what were the results of those tests?
It's all well and good to maintain that heavier objects fall faster than
light ones, I mean, that's apparent to everyone. But what did the tests
establish?
Post by b***@gmail.com
Any of these people?
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/boh/parkland_boh/parkland_wound.htm
Witnesses? Did one of them perform tests that pretty much reproduced the
results of the head shot in three ways?

A small entrance one, a large exit?
Small fragments inside the head?
Two large fragments exiting the skull?
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Dr. Olivier's.
Oh. The veterinarian.
There you go! I expected you to go that route. When stuck, CTs always go
to denigrating the expert's expertise who gave the testimony implicating
Oswald in whatever fashion. Dr. Olivier was a veterinarian by initial
training, but became the Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch at Edgewood
for a reason.

== QUOTE ==
Mr. SPECTER. State your full name for the record.
Dr. OLIVIER. Dr. Alfred G. Olivier.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?
Dr. OLIVIER. A supervisory research veterinarian and I work for the
Department of the Army at Edgewood Arsenal, Md.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the nature of your duties at that arsenal,
please?
Dr. OLIVIER. Investigating the wound ballistics of various bullets and
other military missiles.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the general nature of the tests which are
carried on at Edgewood Arsenal?
Dr. OLIVIER. For example, with a bullet we run tissue studies getting the
retardation of the bullet through the tissues, the penetration, various
characteristics of it. We use as good tissue simulant 20 percent gelatin.
This has a drag coefficient of muscle tissue and makes an excellent
homogenous medium to study the action of the bullet. We also use animal
parts and parts of cadavers where necessary to determine the
characteristics of these things.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you set forth your educational background briefly,
please?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did 2 years of preveterinary work at the University of
New Hampshire and 4 years of veterinary school at the University of
Pennsylvania, and I hold a degree doctor of veterinary medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.
Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you complete your educational work?
Dr. OLIVIER. 1953.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your experience in the field subsequent to 1953?
Dr. OLIVIER. In this field?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. OLIVIER. I came to Edgewood Arsenal, then the Army Chemical Center, in
1957, and originally to work, take charge of the animal colonies but
immediately I got interested in the research and started working in the
field of wound ballistics and have been in it ever since, and am presently
Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch.

== QUOTE ==
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
The same guy you just told us to ignore as irrelevant. He's not irrelevant
and neither is his opinion. Your opinion is the irrelevant one. And the
one that can safely be ignored?
Curious, but did any of Olivier's tests explain why the larger bullet
fragments wound up towards the back, seeing as objects of greater mass
carry greater momentum?
You're making an unproven assertion and asking me to explain it. No,
that's the logical fallacy of changing the burden of proof. You don't get
to imbed your beliefs in your question. Please quote the expert testimony
on your imbedded assertions.

Hank
BOZ
2019-04-07 21:12:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, i kind of lost track
myself. But being that this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in
the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself
one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well do ya, punk?

Dirty Harry
Jason Burke
2019-04-08 20:09:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, i kind of lost track
myself. But being that this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in
the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself
one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well do ya, punk?
Dirty Harry
Amazing how said bad guy got better parts in later Dirty Harry movies.
Including the draino down the hooker's throat scene.
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-09 02:52:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
Can you show us? Do you think the .357 Magnum uses jacketed bullets?
THAT is critical difference.
Post by claviger
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, i kind of lost track
myself. But being that this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in
I don't see where anyone said anything about a .44 Magnum.
Is that the largest thing you have, simp?
Post by BOZ
the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself
one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well do ya, punk?
Dirty Harry
b***@gmail.com
2019-04-09 02:50:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
A snowstorm is something people take shelter from.

The LEAD snowstorm is something LNers take shelter from.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-13 03:33:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
A snowstorm is something people take shelter from.
The LEAD snowstorm is something LNers take shelter from.
There is no such thing as a lead snowstorm. Snow storms contain snow. Not
lead.

Conspiracy theorists take comfort in analogies and pretend there is
something unique about JFK's wounds regarding the small fragments left
behind in JFK's head. But Olivier determined Oswald's ammo would leave
small fragments behind in the test skulls, in the gelatin used as a brain
substitute.

== QUOTE ==

Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside
of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments
without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were
obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment.
We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within
the cranial cavity.

== UNQUOTE ==

Hank
donald willis
2019-04-13 23:51:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
A snowstorm is something people take shelter from.
The LEAD snowstorm is something LNers take shelter from.
There is no such thing as a lead snowstorm. Snow storms contain snow. Not
lead.
Conspiracy theorists take comfort in analogies and pretend there is
something unique about JFK's wounds regarding the small fragments left
behind in JFK's head. But Olivier determined Oswald's ammo would leave
small fragments behind in the test skulls, in the gelatin used as a brain
substitute.
And he apparently used oddly dainty bullets which knocked only one of 10
skulls off the table!
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
== QUOTE ==
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside
of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments
without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were
obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment.
We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within
the cranial cavity.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-14 22:09:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by donald willis
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
A snowstorm is something people take shelter from.
The LEAD snowstorm is something LNers take shelter from.
There is no such thing as a lead snowstorm. Snow storms contain snow. Not
lead.
Conspiracy theorists take comfort in analogies and pretend there is
something unique about JFK's wounds regarding the small fragments left
behind in JFK's head. But Olivier determined Oswald's ammo would leave
small fragments behind in the test skulls, in the gelatin used as a brain
substitute.
And he apparently used oddly dainty bullets which knocked only one of 10
skulls off the table!
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
== QUOTE ==
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside
of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments
without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were
obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment.
We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within
the cranial cavity.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hank
Sorry, you don't know how large the table was, where the skulls were
placed on the table, nor how far the skulls moved on the table.

He did use Oswald's rifle and the same type bullets as were determined to
have been fired during the assassination.

You're also ignoring the primary difference between the tests and the
assassination... JFK was a living, breathing target. The skulls
weren't.

Your complaint about the tests goes nowhere. You're smart enough to see
that. So why'd you complain about the supposed 'dainty bullets'? It's
obvious... you just want to prolong the conversation to make it look like
you have a point.

You don't.

The bottom line is Olivier performed tests that determined Oswald's
bullets could do exactly what was determined to have been done during the
assassination in all aspects.. it caused a small entry wound, a large exit
wound, it broke up upon impact, it left small fragments in the head, and
the copper exterior of the bullet and most of the lead core exited the
head.

All that is exactly what we saw in the assassination.

Whether you like it or not.

Hank
Mark
2019-05-05 00:59:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by donald willis
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
A snowstorm is something people take shelter from.
The LEAD snowstorm is something LNers take shelter from.
There is no such thing as a lead snowstorm. Snow storms contain snow. Not
lead.
Conspiracy theorists take comfort in analogies and pretend there is
something unique about JFK's wounds regarding the small fragments left
behind in JFK's head. But Olivier determined Oswald's ammo would leave
small fragments behind in the test skulls, in the gelatin used as a brain
substitute.
And he apparently used oddly dainty bullets which knocked only one of 10
skulls off the table!
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
== QUOTE ==
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside
of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments
without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were
obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment.
We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within
the cranial cavity.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hank
Sorry, you don't know how large the table was, where the skulls were
placed on the table, nor how far the skulls moved on the table.
He did use Oswald's rifle and the same type bullets as were determined to
have been fired during the assassination.
You're also ignoring the primary difference between the tests and the
assassination... JFK was a living, breathing target. The skulls
weren't.
Your complaint about the tests goes nowhere. You're smart enough to see
that. So why'd you complain about the supposed 'dainty bullets'? It's
obvious... you just want to prolong the conversation to make it look like
you have a point.
You don't.
The bottom line is Olivier performed tests that determined Oswald's
bullets could do exactly what was determined to have been done during the
assassination in all aspects.. it caused a small entry wound, a large exit
wound, it broke up upon impact, it left small fragments in the head, and
the copper exterior of the bullet and most of the lead core exited the
head.
All that is exactly what we saw in the assassination.
Whether you like it or not.
Hank
Donald, when I suggested you should spend more time answering Hank's
questions for you, I was also referring to this one, among others. Mark
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-14 18:21:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
A snowstorm is something people take shelter from.
The LEAD snowstorm is something LNers take shelter from.
There is no such thing as a lead snowstorm. Snow storms contain snow. Not
lead.
Conspiracy theorists take comfort in analogies and pretend there is
something unique about JFK's wounds regarding the small fragments left
behind in JFK's head. But Olivier determined Oswald's ammo would leave
small fragments behind in the test skulls, in the gelatin used as a brain
substitute.
== QUOTE ==
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside
of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments
without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were
obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment.
We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within
the cranial cavity.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hank
If something is POSSIBLE you should be able to replicate it under
controlled conditions.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-15 19:54:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
A snowstorm is something people take shelter from.
The LEAD snowstorm is something LNers take shelter from.
There is no such thing as a lead snowstorm. Snow storms contain snow. Not
lead.
Conspiracy theorists take comfort in analogies and pretend there is
something unique about JFK's wounds regarding the small fragments left
behind in JFK's head. But Olivier determined Oswald's ammo would leave
small fragments behind in the test skulls, in the gelatin used as a brain
substitute.
== QUOTE ==
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside
of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments
without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were
obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment.
We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within
the cranial cavity.
== UNQUOTE ==
Hank
If something is POSSIBLE you should be able to replicate it under
controlled conditions.
Why is it necessary to replicate down to the micrometer? You wouldn't be
satisfied even if the precise number of fragment and precise size of the
fragments were duplicated.

Again, all you're doing is quibbling because the fragments in the gelatin
in the tests weren't the precise size of the fragments in JFK head. But
that's a fallacious argument. No test is going to duplicate precisely the
exact conditions and results of the shot that struck JFK in the head.

And you therefore have your CT safe haven... since it wasn't duplicated,
it means you can disregard all that we have learned.

Hilarious, Tony.

Hank
Ace Kefford
2019-05-23 01:09:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
What is a lead snowstorm, you ask. Take a sh*testorm and substitute in
lead. No need for thanks.
Anthony Marsh
2019-05-24 14:30:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ace Kefford
Post by claviger
Xrays - Gunshot Wounds - Bev Fitchett's Guns Magazine
https://www.bevfitchett.us › Gunshot Wounds
Xrays
https://www.bevfitchett.us/gunshot-wounds/xrays-1.html
Last Updated on Mon, 22 Oct 2012 | Gunshot Wounds
X-rays of individuals shot with hunting ammunition usually show a
characteristic radiologic picture that is seen almost exclusively with
this form of rifle ammunition—the so-called "lead snowstorm." As
the expanding hunting bullet moves through the body, fragments of lead
break off the lead core and are hurled out into the surrounding tissues.
An x-ray shows scores, if not hundreds, of small radiopaque bullet
fragments scattered along the wound track (the lead snowstorm) (Figure
7.16; see also Figure 11.4). These fragments vary from dust-like to large
irregular pieces of metal. Occasional pieces of jacket may be seen. A
rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for this phenomena to occur. This
picture is not seen with handgun bullets, nor, with rare exception, with
full metal-jacketed rifle bullets. Virtually, the sole exception with
military bullets are the M-193 and M-885 5.56 X 45 mm cartridges with
their 55- and 62-gr. bullets, whose propensity to fragment has been
previously discussed (see Figure 7.6). Although the snowstorm appearance
of an x-ray almost always indicates that the individual was shot with
centerfire hunting ammunition, absence of such a picture does not
absolutely rule out the possibility. The lead snowstorm from hunting
ammunition is dependent on the velocity of the bullet. If a rifle bullet
is traveling at a low velocity, either because of extreme range or having
been slowed by passing through various other targets before striking an
individual, x-rays will not show a lead snow-storm. It must be stressed
that a rifle bullet does not have to hit bone for a lead snowstorm to
occur.
A gunshot wound of the head from a high-velocity handgun bullet —
typically the .357 Magnum — can produce an x-ray picture
superficially resembling the lead snowstorm of hunting bullets. Breakup of
the handgun bullet, however, requires perforation of bone which is not
necessary with a rifle bullet. The fragments produced by the handgun
bullet are fewer in number and larger. Lead dust is also not present (see
Figure 11.5).
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet,
with the exception of the M-16 cartridge, usually fails to reveal any
bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the
skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number,
very fine and located at the point the bullet perforated bone.
What is a lead snowstorm, you ask. Take a sh*testorm and substitute in
lead. No need for thanks.
Silly, scattered dustlike fragments rather than large fragments.
Exactly as Humes described. What was the biggest fragment he was able to
recover? Oh wait. don't answer if you're a WC defender.

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