Discussion:
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
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claviger
2018-05-10 18:50:53 UTC
Permalink
US NEWS

JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor

A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
bigdog
2018-05-12 03:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
This theory makes no more sense to me now than when I first heard it. The
theory is based entirely on Marina's comment that Oswald hated Connally,
not JFK. If the evidence was any thinner it would be invisible.

The one thing this hypothesis has going for it is that it could
theoretically be true. No one knows and likely will never know what
Oswald's motive was therefore it's hard to logically rule anything in or
out. Likewise we can't say with certainty that it was JFK that Oswald was
aiming at. What we do know is that he hit JFK twice and the only bullet
that hit Connally was one that had already hit JFK.

There are two major flaws in this theory. For one, of all the days to
choose to kill Connally, why would he choose the day he was with the
POTUS? It seems to me that even with his limited mobility he could have
found an opportunity to take out Connally when there would be only a
fraction of the security detail around him than there was during the
motorcade. Second, if his target was Connally, why wouldn't he take the
shot on Houston? Why would he wait until JFK was between him and his
intended target. Makes no sense to me.
claviger
2018-05-12 22:07:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
This theory makes no more sense to me now than when I first heard it. The
theory is based entirely on Marina's comment that Oswald hated Connally,
not JFK. If the evidence was any thinner it would be invisible.
The one thing this hypothesis has going for it is that it could
theoretically be true. No one knows and likely will never know what
Oswald's motive was therefore it's hard to logically rule anything in or
out. Likewise we can't say with certainty that it was JFK that Oswald was
aiming at. What we do know is that he hit JFK twice and the only bullet
that hit Connally was one that had already hit JFK.
There are two major flaws in this theory. For one, of all the days to
choose to kill Connally, why would he choose the day he was with the
POTUS? It seems to me that even with his limited mobility he could have
found an opportunity to take out Connally when there would be only a
fraction of the security detail around him than there was during the
motorcade. Second, if his target was Connally, why wouldn't he take the
shot on Houston? Why would he wait until JFK was between him and his
intended target. Makes no sense to me.
Very good analysis. My first question is why not the Houston Street
opportunity? Two possible reasons: he might miss Connally and hit the
President. The other reason: the car full of SSA are facing him all the
way down Houston Street and quickly closing in on the TSBD. They could
spot him and return fire, and also jump off and run inside the TSBD front
door.

As for the attempted shots from behind as an amateur sniper he would
instinctively pause when he squeezed the trigger. Both times a deadly
pause would allow the moving vehicle to replace the first target with the
second target.

I still believe LHO took shots at a US President making life miserable for
his favorite Communist hero Fidel Castro. LHO believed he had a duty to
protect the future for a Marxist Revolution in Cuba, and he achieved this
important political goal. For whatever reason President Johnson ignored
Cuba for the rest of his time in the Oval Office.

The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
bigdog
2018-05-14 00:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
This theory makes no more sense to me now than when I first heard it. The
theory is based entirely on Marina's comment that Oswald hated Connally,
not JFK. If the evidence was any thinner it would be invisible.
The one thing this hypothesis has going for it is that it could
theoretically be true. No one knows and likely will never know what
Oswald's motive was therefore it's hard to logically rule anything in or
out. Likewise we can't say with certainty that it was JFK that Oswald was
aiming at. What we do know is that he hit JFK twice and the only bullet
that hit Connally was one that had already hit JFK.
There are two major flaws in this theory. For one, of all the days to
choose to kill Connally, why would he choose the day he was with the
POTUS? It seems to me that even with his limited mobility he could have
found an opportunity to take out Connally when there would be only a
fraction of the security detail around him than there was during the
motorcade. Second, if his target was Connally, why wouldn't he take the
shot on Houston? Why would he wait until JFK was between him and his
intended target. Makes no sense to me.
Very good analysis. My first question is why not the Houston Street
opportunity? Two possible reasons: he might miss Connally and hit the
President. The other reason: the car full of SSA are facing him all the
way down Houston Street and quickly closing in on the TSBD. They could
spot him and return fire, and also jump off and run inside the TSBD front
door.
The facing SS agents would be a factor but since I don't think Oswald
expected to get away with the crime anyway I don't think he would have
been too concerned about that. Yes they might spot him but he could
probably get at least one shot at Connally moving almost directly at him
with a clear line of fire. As for the possibility that he would hit JFK by
mistake, the danger of that was far greater on Elm than it would have been
on Houston.
Post by claviger
As for the attempted shots from behind as an amateur sniper he would
instinctively pause when he squeezed the trigger. Both times a deadly
pause would allow the moving vehicle to replace the first target with the
second target.
Even an amateur sniper would like be tracking a moving target, not aiming at
a fixed point waiting for the target to enter the line of fire. As long
as he kept the gun sight moving with his target, a pause would not matter.
Post by claviger
I still believe LHO took shots at a US President making life miserable for
his favorite Communist hero Fidel Castro. LHO believed he had a duty to
protect the future for a Marxist Revolution in Cuba, and he achieved this
important political goal. For whatever reason President Johnson ignored
Cuba for the rest of his time in the Oval Office.
Any discussion of Oswald's motive is pure speculation and yours is as
valid as any but the fact is nobody knows for sure why Oswald did what he
did. As for LBJ ignoring Cuba, that was part of the backdoor deal made to
end the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviets would remove their missiles in
exchange for a US guarantee not to invade Cuba.
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
bigdog
2018-05-15 01:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
This theory makes no more sense to me now than when I first heard it. The
theory is based entirely on Marina's comment that Oswald hated Connally,
not JFK. If the evidence was any thinner it would be invisible.
The one thing this hypothesis has going for it is that it could
theoretically be true. No one knows and likely will never know what
Oswald's motive was therefore it's hard to logically rule anything in or
out. Likewise we can't say with certainty that it was JFK that Oswald was
aiming at. What we do know is that he hit JFK twice and the only bullet
that hit Connally was one that had already hit JFK.
There are two major flaws in this theory. For one, of all the days to
choose to kill Connally, why would he choose the day he was with the
POTUS? It seems to me that even with his limited mobility he could have
found an opportunity to take out Connally when there would be only a
fraction of the security detail around him than there was during the
motorcade. Second, if his target was Connally, why wouldn't he take the
shot on Houston? Why would he wait until JFK was between him and his
intended target. Makes no sense to me.
Very good analysis. My first question is why not the Houston Street
opportunity? Two possible reasons: he might miss Connally and hit the
President. The other reason: the car full of SSA are facing him all the
way down Houston Street and quickly closing in on the TSBD. They could
spot him and return fire, and also jump off and run inside the TSBD front
door.
The facing SS agents would be a factor but since I don't think Oswald
expected to get away with the crime anyway I don't think he would have
been too concerned about that. Yes they might spot him but he could
probably get at least one shot at Connally moving almost directly at him
with a clear line of fire. As for the possibility that he would hit JFK by
mistake, the danger of that was far greater on Elm than it would have been
on Houston.
Post by claviger
As for the attempted shots from behind as an amateur sniper he would
instinctively pause when he squeezed the trigger. Both times a deadly
pause would allow the moving vehicle to replace the first target with the
second target.
Even an amateur sniper would like be tracking a moving target, not aiming at
a fixed point waiting for the target to enter the line of fire. As long
as he kept the gun sight moving with his target, a pause would not matter.
Post by claviger
I still believe LHO took shots at a US President making life miserable for
his favorite Communist hero Fidel Castro. LHO believed he had a duty to
protect the future for a Marxist Revolution in Cuba, and he achieved this
important political goal. For whatever reason President Johnson ignored
Cuba for the rest of his time in the Oval Office.
Any discussion of Oswald's motive is pure speculation and yours is as
valid as any but the fact is nobody knows for sure why Oswald did what he
did. As for LBJ ignoring Cuba, that was part of the backdoor deal made to
end the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviets would remove their missiles in
exchange for a US guarantee not to invade Cuba.
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture

Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
claviger
2018-05-15 20:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revolución. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.

To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA. Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.

Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
bigdog
2018-05-16 02:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revolución. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-17 14:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revolución. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
He did hand out Fair Play for Cuba leaflets.
Some people think he used a Minox camera to spy on Cuban Exile training
camps.
Post by bigdog
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
THAT is one of the major problems with assassination. The replacement
may be worse.
Also, it might spark a world war.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-05-18 20:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revolución. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
I think the evidence is overwhelming that after JFK's death that much of
the anti-Cuban covert activity - e.g., Operation Mongoose and the
assassination plots - ended or at least were greatly reduced. The Kennedys
were, in the words of Joe Califano, a Pentagon official who attended many
of the meetings where the covert operations were planned, "obsessed" with
Castro.

Once JFK was dead - and RFK reportedly deeply despaired over the
possibility that the anti-Castro activity somehow contributed to the
President's death - there was no driving force behind it. Califano said
that he and other LBJ aides were ordered by LBJ to inform the anti-Castro
Cubans that their war was over and that the Administration would no longer
support any plans to invade Cuba.

At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.

As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.

Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.

If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.

In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
John McAdams
2018-05-18 20:58:17 UTC
Permalink
On 18 May 2018 16:52:54 -0400, "Steve M. Galbraith"
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
I'm not sure what you means by "a great deal." I don't know how he
could know much about the *specifics.*

But as for the idea that the Kennedy Administration was a deadly enemy
of the "Cuban Revolution," he most certainly would have believed that.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bukowski.htm
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
I tend to agree with Davison that Oswald *intended* to do so. Which
is to say, he was a success.

He was also a success if his "I'm a patsy" act was intended to erode
confidence in the U.S. government.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-05-19 14:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McAdams
On 18 May 2018 16:52:54 -0400, "Steve M. Galbraith"
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
I'm not sure what you means by "a great deal." I don't know how he
could know much about the *specifics.*
But as for the idea that the Kennedy Administration was a deadly enemy
of the "Cuban Revolution," he most certainly would have believed that.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bukowski.htm
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
I tend to agree with Davison that Oswald *intended* to do so. Which
is to say, he was a success.
He was also a success if his "I'm a patsy" act was intended to erode
confidence in the U.S. government.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
I'm not sure that Oswald knew or believed that by assassinating JFK that
much of Operation Mongoose and the entire anti-Cuban covert program would
fade away. Which is what, if my history is accurate, occurred. RFK no
longer had the heart or drive to push for it. Did Oswald intend to
retaliate or punish JFK for the policies? Yes, especially if Volkmar
Schmidt's account where he said Oswald was "scathing" in his criticism of
JFK for the BOP.

As to "great deal". That was poorly worded on my part but Jean Davison -
and others - have shown that the radical left press that Oswald read had
extensive coverage on these operations (more than the mainstream press
did) including quoting Castro's speeches where he detailed and condemned
the acts and attacked JFK for the actions. But no, I don't think he knew
specific details about any of the attacks.

In any case, I think Castro did indeed benefit from Oswald's acts, more
than Oswald perhaps intended.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-20 18:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by John McAdams
On 18 May 2018 16:52:54 -0400, "Steve M. Galbraith"
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
I'm not sure what you means by "a great deal." I don't know how he
could know much about the *specifics.*
But as for the idea that the Kennedy Administration was a deadly enemy
of the "Cuban Revolution," he most certainly would have believed that.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bukowski.htm
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
I tend to agree with Davison that Oswald *intended* to do so. Which
is to say, he was a success.
He was also a success if his "I'm a patsy" act was intended to erode
confidence in the U.S. government.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
I'm not sure that Oswald knew or believed that by assassinating JFK that
much of Operation Mongoose and the entire anti-Cuban covert program would
fade away. Which is what, if my history is accurate, occurred. RFK no
Why should Oswald know about Operation Mongoose? Wasn't it classified Top
Secret? Or maybe you think Oswald was spying on the Cuban Exile training
camps. Or maybe David Ferrie whispered it in his ear in the heat of
passion.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
longer had the heart or drive to push for it. Did Oswald intend to
retaliate or punish JFK for the policies? Yes, especially if Volkmar
Schmidt's account where he said Oswald was "scathing" in his criticism of
JFK for the BOP.
Does assassination always change policy?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
As to "great deal". That was poorly worded on my part but Jean Davison -
and others - have shown that the radical left press that Oswald read had
extensive coverage on these operations (more than the mainstream press
did) including quoting Castro's speeches where he detailed and condemned
the acts and attacked JFK for the actions. But no, I don't think he knew
specific details about any of the attacks.
Where? In the New York Times? Or the Mitant? Jean is pretty good about
making up things from her imagination, but she was too early to have seen
the actual documents.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, I think Castro did indeed benefit from Oswald's acts, more
than Oswald perhaps intended.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-20 18:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by John McAdams
On 18 May 2018 16:52:54 -0400, "Steve M. Galbraith"
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
I'm not sure what you means by "a great deal." I don't know how he
could know much about the *specifics.*
But as for the idea that the Kennedy Administration was a deadly enemy
of the "Cuban Revolution," he most certainly would have believed that.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bukowski.htm
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
I tend to agree with Davison that Oswald *intended* to do so. Which
is to say, he was a success.
He was also a success if his "I'm a patsy" act was intended to erode
confidence in the U.S. government.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
I'm not sure that Oswald knew or believed that by assassinating JFK that
much of Operation Mongoose and the entire anti-Cuban covert program would
fade away. Which is what, if my history is accurate, occurred. RFK no
longer had the heart or drive to push for it. Did Oswald intend to
retaliate or punish JFK for the policies? Yes, especially if Volkmar
Schmidt's account where he said Oswald was "scathing" in his criticism of
JFK for the BOP.
As to "great deal". That was poorly worded on my part but Jean Davison -
and others - have shown that the radical left press that Oswald read had
extensive coverage on these operations (more than the mainstream press
did) including quoting Castro's speeches where he detailed and condemned
the acts and attacked JFK for the actions. But no, I don't think he knew
specific details about any of the attacks.
In any case, I think Castro did indeed benefit from Oswald's acts, more
than Oswald perhaps intended.
Maybe YOU benefited most from the JFK assassination by getting your
Vietnam War. Billions in profits.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-19 20:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McAdams
On 18 May 2018 16:52:54 -0400, "Steve M. Galbraith"
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
I'm not sure what you means by "a great deal." I don't know how he
could know much about the *specifics.*
Don't you believe everything that Jean says?
Maybe Oswald was spying on the Cuban Exiles for the FBI.
Post by John McAdams
But as for the idea that the Kennedy Administration was a deadly enemy
of the "Cuban Revolution," he most certainly would have believed that.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bukowski.htm
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
I tend to agree with Davison that Oswald *intended* to do so. Which
is to say, he was a success.
So your conspiracy theory is that Oswald was working for Castro to
provoke WWIII? Exactly how would Castro profit from that?
Post by John McAdams
He was also a success if his "I'm a patsy" act was intended to erode
confidence in the U.S. government.
How's that? Did he name the people who framed him?
Oswald wanted a show trial.
Post by John McAdams
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-19 20:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revolución. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
I think the evidence is overwhelming that after JFK's death that much of
the anti-Cuban covert activity - e.g., Operation Mongoose and the
assassination plots - ended or at least were greatly reduced. The Kennedys
were, in the words of Joe Califano, a Pentagon official who attended many
of the meetings where the covert operations were planned, "obsessed" with
Castro.
Once JFK was dead - and RFK reportedly deeply despaired over the
possibility that the anti-Castro activity somehow contributed to the
Exactly. That is why the first thing Babby did was call the CIA and ask
if they had done it.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
President's death - there was no driving force behind it. Califano said
that he and other LBJ aides were ordered by LBJ to inform the anti-Castro
Cubans that their war was over and that the Administration would no longer
support any plans to invade Cuba.
Such cowards, not willing to start WWIII.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
Any evidence for this? She didn't even know about the short-range
nuclear rockets that Castro had and intended to use to repel an invasion.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
No, he wasn't. But he would rather see the US blown up than let the US
invade Cuba and overthrow him.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-05-20 01:36:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revolución. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
I think the evidence is overwhelming that after JFK's death that much of
the anti-Cuban covert activity - e.g., Operation Mongoose and the
assassination plots - ended or at least were greatly reduced. The Kennedys
were, in the words of Joe Califano, a Pentagon official who attended many
of the meetings where the covert operations were planned, "obsessed" with
Castro.
Once JFK was dead - and RFK reportedly deeply despaired over the
possibility that the anti-Castro activity somehow contributed to the
Exactly. That is why the first thing Babby did was call the CIA and ask
if they had done it.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
President's death - there was no driving force behind it. Califano said
that he and other LBJ aides were ordered by LBJ to inform the anti-Castro
Cubans that their war was over and that the Administration would no longer
support any plans to invade Cuba.
Such cowards, not willing to start WWIII.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
Any evidence for this? She didn't even know about the short-range
nuclear rockets that Castro had and intended to use to repel an invasion.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
No, he wasn't. But he would rather see the US blown up than let the US
invade Cuba and overthrow him.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
He was willing to blow up the world but he wasn't willing to try and kill
JFK? He was sort of a fanatic but not completely? In any case, there's no
evidence that I've seen that says Castro was involved in Oswald's shooting
of the president.

Re Castro's request to start a war: This is from Khrushchev's memoirs
where he discusses receiving a communique from Castro during the middle of
the crisis (October 26, 1962).

Khrushchev: "The main thing in the message from Fidel was not what was
being reported to him but the conclusions he drew. He reasoned that since
an invasion was inevitable, it was necessary to forestall it. He proposed
to prevent destruction of our missile installations we should immediately
strike first, dealing a [premptive] thermonuclear blow to the United
States.

When [Castro's] message was read aloud to us, we sat there in silence,
looking at one another for a long time. It became clear at that point that
Fidel absolutely did not understand our intentions."

"Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev, Volume 3", pp. 340-341
claviger
2018-05-21 02:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
Any evidence for this? She didn't even know about the short-range
nuclear rockets that Castro had and intended to use to repel an invasion.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
No, he wasn't. But he would rather see the US blown up than let the US
invade Cuba and overthrow him.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
He was willing to blow up the world but he wasn't willing to try and kill
JFK? He was sort of a fanatic but not completely? In any case, there's no
evidence that I've seen that says Castro was involved in Oswald's shooting
of the president.
Re Castro's request to start a war: This is from Khrushchev's memoirs
where he discusses receiving a communique from Castro during the middle of
the crisis (October 26, 1962).
Khrushchev: "The main thing in the message from Fidel was not what was
being reported to him but the conclusions he drew. He reasoned that since
an invasion was inevitable, it was necessary to forestall it. He proposed
to prevent destruction of our missile installations we should immediately
strike first, dealing a [premptive] thermonuclear blow to the United
States.
When [Castro's] message was read aloud to us, we sat there in silence,
looking at one another for a long time. It became clear at that point that
Fidel absolutely did not understand our intentions."
"Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev, Volume 3", pp. 340-341
Sounds like there was nothing Castro wouldn't do to protect his Revolution
and first strike was part of his mentality. Did he influence LHO to make
that first strike on President Kennedy?
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-21 15:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revoluci??n. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
I think the evidence is overwhelming that after JFK's death that much of
the anti-Cuban covert activity - e.g., Operation Mongoose and the
assassination plots - ended or at least were greatly reduced. The Kennedys
were, in the words of Joe Califano, a Pentagon official who attended many
of the meetings where the covert operations were planned, "obsessed" with
Castro.
Once JFK was dead - and RFK reportedly deeply despaired over the
possibility that the anti-Castro activity somehow contributed to the
Exactly. That is why the first thing Babby did was call the CIA and ask
if they had done it.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
President's death - there was no driving force behind it. Califano said
that he and other LBJ aides were ordered by LBJ to inform the anti-Castro
Cubans that their war was over and that the Administration would no longer
support any plans to invade Cuba.
Such cowards, not willing to start WWIII.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
Any evidence for this? She didn't even know about the short-range
nuclear rockets that Castro had and intended to use to repel an invasion.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
No, he wasn't. But he would rather see the US blown up than let the US
invade Cuba and overthrow him.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
He was willing to blow up the world but he wasn't willing to try and kill
JFK? He was sort of a fanatic but not completely? In any case, there's no
evidence that I've seen that says Castro was involved in Oswald's shooting
of the president.
Slighty different situations. One was facing invasion and ouster. They
second would be unprovoked.

But didn't you fall for the CIA hoaxes about Castro paying Oswald?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Re Castro's request to start a war: This is from Khrushchev's memoirs
where he discusses receiving a communique from Castro during the middle of
the crisis (October 26, 1962).
Khrushchev: "The main thing in the message from Fidel was not what was
being reported to him but the conclusions he drew. He reasoned that since
an invasion was inevitable, it was necessary to forestall it. He proposed
to prevent destruction of our missile installations we should immediately
strike first, dealing a [premptive] thermonuclear blow to the United
States.
When [Castro's] message was read aloud to us, we sat there in silence,
looking at one another for a long time. It became clear at that point that
Fidel absolutely did not understand our intentions."
"Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev, Volume 3", pp. 340-341
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-05-22 05:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revoluci??n. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
I think the evidence is overwhelming that after JFK's death that much of
the anti-Cuban covert activity - e.g., Operation Mongoose and the
assassination plots - ended or at least were greatly reduced. The Kennedys
were, in the words of Joe Califano, a Pentagon official who attended many
of the meetings where the covert operations were planned, "obsessed" with
Castro.
Once JFK was dead - and RFK reportedly deeply despaired over the
possibility that the anti-Castro activity somehow contributed to the
Exactly. That is why the first thing Babby did was call the CIA and ask
if they had done it.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
President's death - there was no driving force behind it. Califano said
that he and other LBJ aides were ordered by LBJ to inform the anti-Castro
Cubans that their war was over and that the Administration would no longer
support any plans to invade Cuba.
Such cowards, not willing to start WWIII.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
Any evidence for this? She didn't even know about the short-range
nuclear rockets that Castro had and intended to use to repel an invasion.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
No, he wasn't. But he would rather see the US blown up than let the US
invade Cuba and overthrow him.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
He was willing to blow up the world but he wasn't willing to try and kill
JFK? He was sort of a fanatic but not completely? In any case, there's no
evidence that I've seen that says Castro was involved in Oswald's shooting
of the president.
Slighty different situations. One was facing invasion and ouster. They
second would be unprovoked.
But didn't you fall for the CIA hoaxes about Castro paying Oswald?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Re Castro's request to start a war: This is from Khrushchev's memoirs
where he discusses receiving a communique from Castro during the middle of
the crisis (October 26, 1962).
Khrushchev: "The main thing in the message from Fidel was not what was
being reported to him but the conclusions he drew. He reasoned that since
an invasion was inevitable, it was necessary to forestall it. He proposed
to prevent destruction of our missile installations we should immediately
strike first, dealing a [premptive] thermonuclear blow to the United
States.
When [Castro's] message was read aloud to us, we sat there in silence,
looking at one another for a long time. It became clear at that point that
Fidel absolutely did not understand our intentions."
"Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev, Volume 3", pp. 340-341
It shows the fanatical hatred that Castro and Che had for the US. As
Khrushchev writes, they wanted a preemptive nuclear strike on the US. Not
a strike AFTER the invasion occurred or started; and not one directed at
the invasion forces. But on the US mainland.

You have no provided no evidence that the CIA was behind the claims that
Castro paid Oswald.

In fact, the evidence I have seen is that Alvarado's allegations were
proven false by the very same CIA you claim were promoting them.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-23 15:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revoluci??n. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
I think the evidence is overwhelming that after JFK's death that much of
the anti-Cuban covert activity - e.g., Operation Mongoose and the
assassination plots - ended or at least were greatly reduced. The Kennedys
were, in the words of Joe Califano, a Pentagon official who attended many
of the meetings where the covert operations were planned, "obsessed" with
Castro.
Once JFK was dead - and RFK reportedly deeply despaired over the
possibility that the anti-Castro activity somehow contributed to the
Exactly. That is why the first thing Babby did was call the CIA and ask
if they had done it.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
President's death - there was no driving force behind it. Califano said
that he and other LBJ aides were ordered by LBJ to inform the anti-Castro
Cubans that their war was over and that the Administration would no longer
support any plans to invade Cuba.
Such cowards, not willing to start WWIII.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
Any evidence for this? She didn't even know about the short-range
nuclear rockets that Castro had and intended to use to repel an invasion.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
No, he wasn't. But he would rather see the US blown up than let the US
invade Cuba and overthrow him.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
He was willing to blow up the world but he wasn't willing to try and kill
JFK? He was sort of a fanatic but not completely? In any case, there's no
evidence that I've seen that says Castro was involved in Oswald's shooting
of the president.
Slighty different situations. One was facing invasion and ouster. They
second would be unprovoked.
But didn't you fall for the CIA hoaxes about Castro paying Oswald?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Re Castro's request to start a war: This is from Khrushchev's memoirs
where he discusses receiving a communique from Castro during the middle of
the crisis (October 26, 1962).
Khrushchev: "The main thing in the message from Fidel was not what was
being reported to him but the conclusions he drew. He reasoned that since
an invasion was inevitable, it was necessary to forestall it. He proposed
to prevent destruction of our missile installations we should immediately
strike first, dealing a [premptive] thermonuclear blow to the United
States.
When [Castro's] message was read aloud to us, we sat there in silence,
looking at one another for a long time. It became clear at that point that
Fidel absolutely did not understand our intentions."
"Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev, Volume 3", pp. 340-341
It shows the fanatical hatred that Castro and Che had for the US. As
Khrushchev writes, they wanted a preemptive nuclear strike on the US. Not
a strike AFTER the invasion occurred or started; and not one directed at
the invasion forces. But on the US mainland.
Not during the Bay of Pigs invasion. Only during the Cuban Missile
Crisis, when both sides were threatening to use nuclear weapons.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
You have no provided no evidence that the CIA was behind the claims that
Castro paid Oswald.
Yes, I have:

http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/cubahoax.htm
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In fact, the evidence I have seen is that Alvarado's allegations were
proven false by the very same CIA you claim were promoting them.
It's called compartmentalization. One department in the CIA does not
know what the other is doing.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-05-23 21:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revoluci??n. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
I think the evidence is overwhelming that after JFK's death that much of
the anti-Cuban covert activity - e.g., Operation Mongoose and the
assassination plots - ended or at least were greatly reduced. The Kennedys
were, in the words of Joe Califano, a Pentagon official who attended many
of the meetings where the covert operations were planned, "obsessed" with
Castro.
Once JFK was dead - and RFK reportedly deeply despaired over the
possibility that the anti-Castro activity somehow contributed to the
Exactly. That is why the first thing Babby did was call the CIA and ask
if they had done it.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
President's death - there was no driving force behind it. Califano said
that he and other LBJ aides were ordered by LBJ to inform the anti-Castro
Cubans that their war was over and that the Administration would no longer
support any plans to invade Cuba.
Such cowards, not willing to start WWIII.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
Any evidence for this? She didn't even know about the short-range
nuclear rockets that Castro had and intended to use to repel an invasion.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
No, he wasn't. But he would rather see the US blown up than let the US
invade Cuba and overthrow him.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
He was willing to blow up the world but he wasn't willing to try and kill
JFK? He was sort of a fanatic but not completely? In any case, there's no
evidence that I've seen that says Castro was involved in Oswald's shooting
of the president.
Slighty different situations. One was facing invasion and ouster. They
second would be unprovoked.
But didn't you fall for the CIA hoaxes about Castro paying Oswald?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Re Castro's request to start a war: This is from Khrushchev's memoirs
where he discusses receiving a communique from Castro during the middle of
the crisis (October 26, 1962).
Khrushchev: "The main thing in the message from Fidel was not what was
being reported to him but the conclusions he drew. He reasoned that since
an invasion was inevitable, it was necessary to forestall it. He proposed
to prevent destruction of our missile installations we should immediately
strike first, dealing a [premptive] thermonuclear blow to the United
States.
When [Castro's] message was read aloud to us, we sat there in silence,
looking at one another for a long time. It became clear at that point that
Fidel absolutely did not understand our intentions."
"Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev, Volume 3", pp. 340-341
It shows the fanatical hatred that Castro and Che had for the US. As
Khrushchev writes, they wanted a preemptive nuclear strike on the US. Not
a strike AFTER the invasion occurred or started; and not one directed at
the invasion forces. But on the US mainland.
Not during the Bay of Pigs invasion. Only during the Cuban Missile
Crisis, when both sides were threatening to use nuclear weapons.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
You have no provided no evidence that the CIA was behind the claims that
Castro paid Oswald.
http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/cubahoax.htm
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In fact, the evidence I have seen is that Alvarado's allegations were
proven false by the very same CIA you claim were promoting them.
It's called compartmentalization. One department in the CIA does not
know what the other is doing.
Where is that link do you show/provide evidence the CIA promoted
Alvarado's story? Who in the CIA was disseminating/promoting Alvarado's
claims?

The only part I am aware of - I'm not sure if it's true - is that Phillips
supposedly vouched for Alvarado's credibility; in general but not his
specific claim. Morley is my source for that.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-24 21:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revoluci??n. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
Che Guevara was hardly just a pretty boy. He rose to the level of Castro's
right hand man during the guerrilla war which toppled Batista. After
Castro took over, Guevara played many key roles including training the
militia forces that would repel the Bay of Pigs invasion. He literally
wrote the book on guerilla warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_Warfare_(book)
Post by claviger
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA.
Oswald did nothing to help Castro. There's no way Castro would been a
party to the assassination nor would he have wanted it to happen. He
didn't stay in power for over 50 years by being stupid.
Post by claviger
Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
Castro gained no benefit from the assassination. CIA efforts to eliminate
him continued after JFK was assassinated. One of the reasons for finally
calling off the dogs was the fear that if they did eliminate Castro, he
would be replaced by either Che Guevara or Raul Castro who it was thought
would be even worse.
I think the evidence is overwhelming that after JFK's death that much of
the anti-Cuban covert activity - e.g., Operation Mongoose and the
assassination plots - ended or at least were greatly reduced. The Kennedys
were, in the words of Joe Califano, a Pentagon official who attended many
of the meetings where the covert operations were planned, "obsessed" with
Castro.
Once JFK was dead - and RFK reportedly deeply despaired over the
possibility that the anti-Castro activity somehow contributed to the
Exactly. That is why the first thing Babby did was call the CIA and ask
if they had done it.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
President's death - there was no driving force behind it. Califano said
that he and other LBJ aides were ordered by LBJ to inform the anti-Castro
Cubans that their war was over and that the Administration would no longer
support any plans to invade Cuba.
Such cowards, not willing to start WWIII.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
At the very least, Oswald's assassination of JFK ended most of those
covert anti-Cuban operations.
As Jean Davison documents in her book, Oswald probably knew a great deal
about these operations.
Second: recall that during the missile crisis that Castro pleaded with
Khrushchev to launch his nuclear missiles against the US. Not the ones in
Cuba, mind you, but the ballistic missiles in the USSR. That was insane
but it's evidence of the incredible anti-American fanaticism that Castro
and Che had.
Any evidence for this? She didn't even know about the short-range
nuclear rockets that Castro had and intended to use to repel an invasion.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
No, he wasn't. But he would rather see the US blown up than let the US
invade Cuba and overthrow him.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
He was willing to blow up the world but he wasn't willing to try and kill
JFK? He was sort of a fanatic but not completely? In any case, there's no
evidence that I've seen that says Castro was involved in Oswald's shooting
of the president.
Slighty different situations. One was facing invasion and ouster. They
second would be unprovoked.
But didn't you fall for the CIA hoaxes about Castro paying Oswald?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Re Castro's request to start a war: This is from Khrushchev's memoirs
where he discusses receiving a communique from Castro during the middle of
the crisis (October 26, 1962).
Khrushchev: "The main thing in the message from Fidel was not what was
being reported to him but the conclusions he drew. He reasoned that since
an invasion was inevitable, it was necessary to forestall it. He proposed
to prevent destruction of our missile installations we should immediately
strike first, dealing a [premptive] thermonuclear blow to the United
States.
When [Castro's] message was read aloud to us, we sat there in silence,
looking at one another for a long time. It became clear at that point that
Fidel absolutely did not understand our intentions."
"Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev, Volume 3", pp. 340-341
It shows the fanatical hatred that Castro and Che had for the US. As
Khrushchev writes, they wanted a preemptive nuclear strike on the US. Not
a strike AFTER the invasion occurred or started; and not one directed at
the invasion forces. But on the US mainland.
Not during the Bay of Pigs invasion. Only during the Cuban Missile
Crisis, when both sides were threatening to use nuclear weapons.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
You have no provided no evidence that the CIA was behind the claims that
Castro paid Oswald.
http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/cubahoax.htm
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In fact, the evidence I have seen is that Alvarado's allegations were
proven false by the very same CIA you claim were promoting them.
It's called compartmentalization. One department in the CIA does not
know what the other is doing.
Where is that link do you show/provide evidence the CIA promoted
Alvarado's story? Who in the CIA was disseminating/promoting Alvarado's
claims?
http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/cubahoax.htm

As I said before sometimes one department in the CIA does not know what
another department is doing.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
The only part I am aware of - I'm not sure if it's true - is that Phillips
supposedly vouched for Alvarado's credibility; in general but not his
specific claim. Morley is my source for that.
Nope, you know nothing because you didn't bother to dig out the files. It
was Phillips who debunked the Alavarado story because he did his homework
and KNEW that Oswald was not in Mexico on that date. Are you afraid to
read the files on my web site?

But under intense questioning by the CIA, Alvarado's story began to
unravel. Oswald could not have been at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico on
the day that he allegedly received the cash, because he was known to have
been in New Orleans appplying for unemployment insurance. And there was
no red-headed Negro Cuban intelligence officer working at the Cuban
Consulate in Mexico. Alvarado admitted that he had made up the story in
hopes that the US would be prompted to invade Cuba in retaliation.
claviger
2018-05-20 22:11:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
If Castro was willing to wage nuclear war against the US I have little
doubt that he wouldn't have minded murdering JFK.
No, he wasn't. But he would rather see the US blown up than let the US
invade Cuba and overthrow him.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
In any case, Oswald's assassination of JFK did benefit Castro even if
Oswald didn't intend it to be so.
Somewhere I read the Soviets were ready to depose Khrushchev if he tried
to start WWIII over Cuba. They didn't like the idea of Castro having
tactical nukes either and blamed Khrushchev for that blunder too. As it
turned out Cuba imploded due to Socialist economics and was a financial
drain on the USSR. So Peace ended up being a longterm double victory for
the USA.

Numerous malcontents in the US hijacked planes and boats to Cuba which
allowed airline pilots to observe Cuba coming and going. Castro did not
like this trend or these asylum seekers, and threw them in prison. He
assumed they were CIA plants. LHO planned to hijack a plane to Cuba. In
retrospect that would have been the best thing for the USA. He would have
been in a Cuban prison or chopping sugar cane for the rest of his life.
Unfortunately he remained a deadly malcontent in Dallas to commit the most
devastating political crime in USA history.

With LBJ in charge the US Government sunk into a debtor nation that might
be impossible to correct. Rising Debt and volatile Interest Rates are a
major weakness for any economy where interest rates alone can whipsaw the
well being of its people. It gives the Fed even more power to manipulated
the US economy for its own benefit, not for the average American taxpayer.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-17 20:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
No, of course not. Cuban pride would not acknowledge a Gringo on his
own did more damage than any of Castro's henchmen. Che was merely
Almost right, but other Americans also helped the revolution.
Post by claviger
a pretty boy cheerleader for the Revolución. Guevara had no experience
or formal military training and flopped on his rockstar tour of the Belgian
Congo and Bolivia.
To recognize LHO for his significant contribution would raise questions
and anger many people in the USA. Castro's swollen ego would not allow
him to acknowledge the obvious, that a punk in downtown Dallas with a
milsurp rifle did more damage to the US Government to the major benefit
of Communist Cuba than anything Castro or Che did.
Castro immediately thought it was a CIA provocation to justify the US
invading Cuba. Such as Operation Northwoods.
Post by claviger
Had Kennedy survived there would have been ongoing CIA pressure on
Castro. LBJ wanted nothing to do with the Cuban situation. The USSR
LBJ really fell for the hoax and believed that Castro hired Oswald.
But he was allergic to radiation and was told that a nuclear war would
cause the death of 40 million Americans in an hour. He thought that
might hurt his chances to get elected.
Post by claviger
did adopt Cuba and financed their sinking economy for a long time until
they decided to pull out of this financial fiasco.
mainframetech
2018-05-16 02:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
This theory makes no more sense to me now than when I first heard it. The
theory is based entirely on Marina's comment that Oswald hated Connally,
not JFK. If the evidence was any thinner it would be invisible.
The one thing this hypothesis has going for it is that it could
theoretically be true. No one knows and likely will never know what
Oswald's motive was therefore it's hard to logically rule anything in or
out. Likewise we can't say with certainty that it was JFK that Oswald was
aiming at. What we do know is that he hit JFK twice and the only bullet
that hit Connally was one that had already hit JFK.
There are two major flaws in this theory. For one, of all the days to
choose to kill Connally, why would he choose the day he was with the
POTUS? It seems to me that even with his limited mobility he could have
found an opportunity to take out Connally when there would be only a
fraction of the security detail around him than there was during the
motorcade. Second, if his target was Connally, why wouldn't he take the
shot on Houston? Why would he wait until JFK was between him and his
intended target. Makes no sense to me.
Very good analysis. My first question is why not the Houston Street
opportunity? Two possible reasons: he might miss Connally and hit the
President. The other reason: the car full of SSA are facing him all the
way down Houston Street and quickly closing in on the TSBD. They could
spot him and return fire, and also jump off and run inside the TSBD front
door.
The facing SS agents would be a factor but since I don't think Oswald
expected to get away with the crime anyway I don't think he would have
been too concerned about that. Yes they might spot him but he could
probably get at least one shot at Connally moving almost directly at him
with a clear line of fire. As for the possibility that he would hit JFK by
mistake, the danger of that was far greater on Elm than it would have been
on Houston.
Post by claviger
As for the attempted shots from behind as an amateur sniper he would
instinctively pause when he squeezed the trigger. Both times a deadly
pause would allow the moving vehicle to replace the first target with the
second target.
Even an amateur sniper would like be tracking a moving target, not aiming at
a fixed point waiting for the target to enter the line of fire. As long
as he kept the gun sight moving with his target, a pause would not matter.
Post by claviger
I still believe LHO took shots at a US President making life miserable for
his favorite Communist hero Fidel Castro. LHO believed he had a duty to
protect the future for a Marxist Revolution in Cuba, and he achieved this
important political goal. For whatever reason President Johnson ignored
Cuba for the rest of his time in the Oval Office.
Any discussion of Oswald's motive is pure speculation and yours is as
valid as any but the fact is nobody knows for sure why Oswald did what he
did. As for LBJ ignoring Cuba, that was part of the backdoor deal made to
end the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviets would remove their missiles in
exchange for a US guarantee not to invade Cuba.
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
This is a follow up to the above. This Wiki article summarizes the esteem
that is still held for Che Guevara 50 years after his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture
Nobody I know of venerates Oswald this way.
Well, he didn't do anything memorable.

Chris
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-15 13:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
This theory makes no more sense to me now than when I first heard it. The
theory is based entirely on Marina's comment that Oswald hated Connally,
not JFK. If the evidence was any thinner it would be invisible.
The one thing this hypothesis has going for it is that it could
theoretically be true. No one knows and likely will never know what
Oswald's motive was therefore it's hard to logically rule anything in or
out. Likewise we can't say with certainty that it was JFK that Oswald was
aiming at. What we do know is that he hit JFK twice and the only bullet
that hit Connally was one that had already hit JFK.
There are two major flaws in this theory. For one, of all the days to
choose to kill Connally, why would he choose the day he was with the
POTUS? It seems to me that even with his limited mobility he could have
found an opportunity to take out Connally when there would be only a
fraction of the security detail around him than there was during the
motorcade. Second, if his target was Connally, why wouldn't he take the
shot on Houston? Why would he wait until JFK was between him and his
intended target. Makes no sense to me.
Very good analysis. My first question is why not the Houston Street
opportunity? Two possible reasons: he might miss Connally and hit the
President. The other reason: the car full of SSA are facing him all the
way down Houston Street and quickly closing in on the TSBD. They could
spot him and return fire, and also jump off and run inside the TSBD front
door.
The facing SS agents would be a factor but since I don't think Oswald
expected to get away with the crime anyway I don't think he would have
been too concerned about that. Yes they might spot him but he could
The sniper might not want to interrupted when he only had a few possible
shots.
Post by bigdog
probably get at least one shot at Connally moving almost directly at him
with a clear line of fire. As for the possibility that he would hit JFK by
Maybe. Have you checked the SS reenactment film and photos to see when
he has a clear shot? The parade bar will block some shots.
Post by bigdog
mistake, the danger of that was far greater on Elm than it would have been
on Houston.
Too steep an angle.
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
As for the attempted shots from behind as an amateur sniper he would
instinctively pause when he squeezed the trigger. Both times a deadly
pause would allow the moving vehicle to replace the first target with the
second target.
Even an amateur sniper would like be tracking a moving target, not aiming at
a fixed point waiting for the target to enter the line of fire. As long
as he kept the gun sight moving with his target, a pause would not matter.
Post by claviger
I still believe LHO took shots at a US President making life miserable for
his favorite Communist hero Fidel Castro. LHO believed he had a duty to
protect the future for a Marxist Revolution in Cuba, and he achieved this
important political goal. For whatever reason President Johnson ignored
Cuba for the rest of his time in the Oval Office.
Any discussion of Oswald's motive is pure speculation and yours is as
valid as any but the fact is nobody knows for sure why Oswald did what he
did. As for LBJ ignoring Cuba, that was part of the backdoor deal made to
end the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviets would remove their missiles in
exchange for a US guarantee not to invade Cuba.
Maybe he hated life and wanted to start WWIII.
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
I don't remember ANY posters of Oswald.
Steve BH
2018-05-15 16:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
This theory makes no more sense to me now than when I first heard it. The
theory is based entirely on Marina's comment that Oswald hated Connally,
not JFK. If the evidence was any thinner it would be invisible.
The one thing this hypothesis has going for it is that it could
theoretically be true. No one knows and likely will never know what
Oswald's motive was therefore it's hard to logically rule anything in or
out. Likewise we can't say with certainty that it was JFK that Oswald was
aiming at. What we do know is that he hit JFK twice and the only bullet
that hit Connally was one that had already hit JFK.
There are two major flaws in this theory. For one, of all the days to
choose to kill Connally, why would he choose the day he was with the
POTUS? It seems to me that even with his limited mobility he could have
found an opportunity to take out Connally when there would be only a
fraction of the security detail around him than there was during the
motorcade. Second, if his target was Connally, why wouldn't he take the
shot on Houston? Why would he wait until JFK was between him and his
intended target. Makes no sense to me.
Very good analysis. My first question is why not the Houston Street
opportunity? Two possible reasons: he might miss Connally and hit the
President. The other reason: the car full of SSA are facing him all the
way down Houston Street and quickly closing in on the TSBD. They could
spot him and return fire, and also jump off and run inside the TSBD front
door.
The facing SS agents would be a factor but since I don't think Oswald
expected to get away with the crime anyway I don't think he would have
been too concerned about that. Yes they might spot him but he could
probably get at least one shot at Connally moving almost directly at him
with a clear line of fire. As for the possibility that he would hit JFK by
mistake, the danger of that was far greater on Elm than it would have been
on Houston.
Post by claviger
As for the attempted shots from behind as an amateur sniper he would
instinctively pause when he squeezed the trigger. Both times a deadly
pause would allow the moving vehicle to replace the first target with the
second target.
Even an amateur sniper would like be tracking a moving target, not aiming at
a fixed point waiting for the target to enter the line of fire. As long
as he kept the gun sight moving with his target, a pause would not matter.
Post by claviger
I still believe LHO took shots at a US President making life miserable for
his favorite Communist hero Fidel Castro. LHO believed he had a duty to
protect the future for a Marxist Revolution in Cuba, and he achieved this
important political goal. For whatever reason President Johnson ignored
Cuba for the rest of his time in the Oval Office.
Any discussion of Oswald's motive is pure speculation and yours is as
valid as any but the fact is nobody knows for sure why Oswald did what he
did. As for LBJ ignoring Cuba, that was part of the backdoor deal made to
end the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Soviets would remove their missiles in
exchange for a US guarantee not to invade Cuba.
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
I really don't think so. I remember seeing posters of Che Guevera around
the Ohio State campus when I was a student there and I still see similar
posters put up by leftists although not nearly as frequently as I used to.
I've never seen anyone put up a similar poster of Oswald. I doubt you
would see any in Havana either.
You wouldn't. And I personally testify there were none seven years ago
when Fidel Castro was still in power.
Steve BH
2018-05-15 16:48:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
Oh, yeah? Well, there's a big Interior Ministry building in Revolution
Square with Guevara's traced picture on it five stories high, but when I
was there, I saw not a photo or statue to Oswald anywhere. Statues
everywhere of Jose Marti, and even people like Camilo Cienfuegos who I had
never heard of before, but no Americans.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/360513

I tried to buy a Lee Oswald T-shirt in Havana in 2010, but no luck. ;'p
claviger
2018-05-16 02:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve BH
Post by claviger
The truth is Lee Harvey Oswald is as much a hero to the Cuban Revolution
as Che Guevara. In fact, even more so.
Oh, yeah? Well, there's a big Interior Ministry building in Revolution
Square with Guevara's traced picture on it five stories high, but when I
was there, I saw not a photo or statue to Oswald anywhere. Statues
everywhere of Jose Marti, and even people like Camilo Cienfuegos who I had
never heard of before, but no Americans.
Che was a popular PR image for the Cuban revolution and led the daring
railroad attack on Santa Clara, but he was a doctor not a trained military
soldier. From what I read he was a likable fellow and very popular with
the international press. As an insurgent leader he was a failure in the
Congo and in Bolivia where his inexperience and mistakes led to his
capture.

I stand by my statement above that Lee Harvey Oswald had more to do with
the longterm survival of the Castro regime than anything Che ever did,
whether Cuban historians want to recognize that fact or not. LHO
eliminated the Number One thorn in the side of Castro's junta. For this
effort he should be an international hero to all Marxist believers around
the world and especially in Cuba.
mainframetech
2018-05-16 02:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
This theory makes no more sense to me now than when I first heard it. The
theory is based entirely on Marina's comment that Oswald hated Connally,
not JFK. If the evidence was any thinner it would be invisible.
The one thing this hypothesis has going for it is that it could
theoretically be true. No one knows and likely will never know what
Oswald's motive was therefore it's hard to logically rule anything in or
out.
You might consider that he had no motive since he can't be shown to
have fired on the motorcade.
Post by bigdog
Likewise we can't say with certainty that it was JFK that Oswald was
aiming at. What we do know is that he hit JFK twice and the only bullet
that hit Connally was one that had already hit JFK.
The SBT was proven dead. So don't try to resurrect that old
chestnut. A separate bullet(s) struck Connally. And 3 bullets hit JFK.
Head, back and throat.
Post by bigdog
There are two major flaws in this theory. For one, of all the days to
choose to kill Connally, why would he choose the day he was with the
POTUS? It seems to me that even with his limited mobility he could have
found an opportunity to take out Connally when there would be only a
fraction of the security detail around him than there was during the
motorcade. Second, if his target was Connally, why wouldn't he take the
shot on Houston? Why would he wait until JFK was between him and his
intended target. Makes no sense to me.
The killing of the POTUS was a political coup, and was done with many
shooters.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-17 02:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
This theory makes no more sense to me now than when I first heard it. The
theory is based entirely on Marina's comment that Oswald hated Connally,
not JFK. If the evidence was any thinner it would be invisible.
The one thing this hypothesis has going for it is that it could
theoretically be true. No one knows and likely will never know what
Oswald's motive was therefore it's hard to logically rule anything in or
out.
You might consider that he had no motive since he can't be shown to
have fired on the motorcade.
Why would I consider that when the evidence indicates it is a mortal lock
that he was the assassin?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Likewise we can't say with certainty that it was JFK that Oswald was
aiming at. What we do know is that he hit JFK twice and the only bullet
that hit Connally was one that had already hit JFK.
The SBT was proven dead. So don't try to resurrect that old
chestnut. A separate bullet(s) struck Connally. And 3 bullets hit JFK.
Head, back and throat.
Your silliness has no part in this discussion. It doesn't concern you.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
There are two major flaws in this theory. For one, of all the days to
choose to kill Connally, why would he choose the day he was with the
POTUS? It seems to me that even with his limited mobility he could have
found an opportunity to take out Connally when there would be only a
fraction of the security detail around him than there was during the
motorcade. Second, if his target was Connally, why wouldn't he take the
shot on Houston? Why would he wait until JFK was between him and his
intended target. Makes no sense to me.
The killing of the POTUS was a political coup, and was done with many
shooters.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Ace Kefford
2018-05-17 14:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
I always thought this was the dumbest theory/explanation in the Oswald did
it category. Of course that still makes it many times more sensible than
most of the conspiracy theories around today. Other than of course Jumbo
Jim Garrison's homosexual thrill kill theory which is as solid today as it
was back then!
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-18 00:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ace Kefford
Post by claviger
US NEWS
JFK: An Accidental Assassination?
By Jamie Stiehm, Opinion Contributor
A new book by James Reston tells the story of that day in Dallas from a
different angle.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-stiehm/2013/11/05/was-the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-just-an-accident
I always thought this was the dumbest theory/explanation in the Oswald did
it category. Of course that still makes it many times more sensible than
most of the conspiracy theories around today. Other than of course Jumbo
Jim Garrison's homosexual thrill kill theory which is as solid today as it
was back then!
Yeah, as if. How many people believe that theory.
List their names right here.
No fair listing Garrison, he's dead. Live people only.
No Zombies.
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