Discussion:
Jack Ruby - Was He In Dealey Plaza ?
(too old to reply)
Marcus Hanson
2013-03-03 14:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Hey Ralph ,

As promised - free of charge , free of copyright. It is more conspiratorial than neutral or LN in tone , though there are qualifications in the notes. I don't see Ruby's presence or absence as an issue , unless you want to belive the tale of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol.I did 95 per cent of this from memory - I had to check up on a couple of points , such as Newnam's testimony , but I did not have the time (or inclination) to re-check most of it ,so it may be far from perfect. Regardless, it presents a MUCH STRONGER case for Ruby being in Dealey Plaza , than what you have(namely,incorrect speculation)on the Oswald Innocent Campaign website.You get a bit of a deserved roasting for that,but it's a small price to pay for my time. And for the increase in your knowledge.
===============================================================================
Was Jack Ruby in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November 1963 ?
That question has engendered much speculation and is still debated today.
The official line is that Ruby was at the offices of the Dallas Morning News.

He was seen by,and conversed with, a DMN employee named Wanda Walker.John Newnam , an advertising salesman with the DMN , told the Warren Commission that he first saw Ruby that day at 12:40pm.Newnam exchanged greetings with Ruby.
So that seems pretty clear : at the time of President Kennedy's assassination , Jack Ruby was not in Dealey Plaza.

But hang on a minute . Is there any evidence to the contrary ? Yes , there is (1). Anthony Summers , author of “Conspiracy/Not In Your Lifetime” claimed that Jack Ruby was unseen at the DMN offices for around twenty minutes . Further , The Oswald Innocent Campaign speculated(2) that Ruby was the man in the Fedora hat , captured in a photograph taken by James Altgens. Thanks to the efforts of a well-respected British researcher (3),it is now known that this was not Jack Ruby .

Ralph Cinque is responsibile for this error and will probably institute a revolutionary new policy : from hereonin , OIC will look at clear photos only and attempt identification by study of faces , rather than hats.
The researcher has explained that the man's FACE can be seen in other photographs , in Robert Groden's book "The Killing of a President".
Accordingly , OIC is honour-bound to update its website , correct this error and apologise for misleading its readers.

This new policy could lead the OIC , and particularly Ralph Cinque , to discover another photograph (4) , commonly known as "Willis 8".
Look at the far right of the photograph . Who is that man in sunglasses ? Either it is Jack Ruby , or it is his identical twin ! (5)

Another photograph of a man who looks , and dresses , like Jack Ruby can be seen on p.49 of Robert Groden's "The Killing of a President".
This photo was taken shortly after the last shot was fired at Kennedy and shows the man walking along the knoll , towards the triple underpass.

Could it have been this man who was seen by Lee Bowers , behind the Grassy Knoll Fence , prior to the shooting ? Possibly - see the Malcolm Summers drawing of the man he encountered , with a gun under his coat ,in Dealey Plaza (6).

So much for the photographic evidence. What about the eyewitness testimony ?
Julia Ann Mercer reported seeing Ruby at the wheel of a truck , from which an assembled rifle was unloaded (7).

Victoria Adams testified to the Warren Commission that she and Avery Davis saw a man who looked like Ruby (8),standing at the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street .
Possibly this was the man seen in “Willis 8”? Adams and Davis believed he was either a police officer , or a reporter.
Jean Hill also reported seeing Ruby running towards the Grassy Knoll(9).
Cameraman Mal Couch told the Warren Commission that he was told that Ruby had been seen near the TSBD , a few minutes after the assassination , though he admitted this was hearsay.

What about the ladies who claim to have seen Jack Ruby give a pistol to Lee Harvey Oswald ? What better proof could there be of Ruby and Oswald knowing eachother?

Could ALL the photographic evidence , all the eyewitness reports , be wrong ?(11)

What about Ruby’s own words ? He did not state to the Warren Commission that he had been in Dealey Plaza. But we know , from an informant report that Ruby , allegedly , had called a friend to ask him if he wanted to come to “watch the fireworks”. That could hardly have been a literal reference to fireworks – so did Ruby go to Dealey Plaza because he had foreknowledge of the assassination ?

And how far are the offices of the Dallas Morning News from Dealey Plaza?
See for yourself - look at the map – it’s not far at all.

What other evidence can we use ? What about Jack Ruby’s personality ? He was known as a ‘hanger on’ , someone who wanted to be at the periphery of the action. .Respected reporter Seth Kantor said that he encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital . Ruby denied this – and the Warren Commission chose to believe him. Could Kantor have been mistaken about WHERE he saw – and spoke with – Jack Ruby ? He could , but Kantor’s recollection is specific and is likely more credible than Ruby’s denial.

And of course – Jack Ruby attended the DPD press conferences on the evening of 22nd November 1963. Was this to fulfill a mission to kill Oswald ? Or was it merely indicative of Ruby’s wish to be where the action was?
Is the official line correct ? Or did Jack Ruby slip out of The Dallas Morning News offices , just for a few minutes , to watch a “fireworks display” , the smoke of which still casts a stench over the United States of America to this very day ?? (12)

===============================================================================(1)But this evidence is far from conclusive.


(2)Due to sloppy research.

(3)Is there an emoticon for "stifled , incredulous laughter" ?? If so, insert it here.

(4)It's been known to most people for 50 years (or 20 years , if we are relying solely on the internet ), so "finally find at last" , rather than "discover" , may be a more apt phrase.

(5)There is a resemblance , but it likely is not Ruby.

(6)This is reaaalllyy stretching it - but hey , I promised it would be conspiratorial in tone !

(7)Did she REALLY identify Ruby ? I don’t think so , but let’s not spoil the oft-repeated myth.

(8)This was , perfectly reasonably , after seeing television footage of Ruby. She did not actually know him.

(9)Maybe she did.Or maybe she saw a man who resembled him.Jean Hill’s story is known for having been ‘enhanced’ over the years.

(10)Does anybody seriously believe that anyone , let alone Ruby , handed a pistol to Oswald , shortly after the assassination and in broad daylight ?

(11)Yes, they could. Are Newnam and Walker both wrong about Ruby being at the Dallas Morning News offices and the time of his presence?

(12)Poetic , heh ?!
Walt
2013-03-03 21:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcus Hanson
Hey Ralph ,
As promised - free of charge , free of copyright. It is more conspiratorial than neutral or LN in tone , though there are qualifications in the notes. I don't see Ruby's presence or absence as an issue , unless you want to belive the tale of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol.I did 95 per cent of this from memory - I had to check up on a couple of points , such as Newnam's testimony , but I did not have the time (or inclination) to re-check most of it ,so it may be far from perfect. Regardless, it presents a MUCH STRONGER case for Ruby being in Dealey Plaza , than what you have(namely,incorrect speculation)on the Oswald Innocent Campaign website.You get a bit of a deserved roasting for that,but it's a small price to pay for my time. And for the increase in your knowledge.
===========================================================================­====
Was Jack Ruby in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November 1963 ?
That question has engendered much speculation and is still debated today.
The official line is that Ruby was at the offices of the Dallas Morning News.
He was seen by,and conversed with, a DMN employee named Wanda Walker.John Newnam , an advertising salesman with the DMN , told the Warren Commission that he first saw Ruby that day at 12:40pm.Newnam exchanged greetings with Ruby.
So that seems pretty clear : at the time of President Kennedy's assassination , Jack Ruby was not in Dealey Plaza.
But hang on a minute . Is there any evidence to the contrary ? Yes , there is (1). Anthony Summers , author of “Conspiracy/Not In Your Lifetime” claimed that Jack Ruby was unseen at the DMN offices for around twenty minutes . Further , The Oswald Innocent Campaign speculated(2) that Ruby was the man in the Fedora hat , captured in a photograph taken by James Altgens. Thanks to the efforts of a well-respected British researcher (3),it is now known that this was not Jack Ruby .
Ralph Cinque is responsibile for this error and will probably institute a revolutionary new policy : from hereonin , OIC will look at clear photos only and attempt identification by study of faces , rather than hats.
The researcher has explained that the man's FACE can be seen in other photographs , in Robert Groden's book "The Killing of a President".
Accordingly , OIC is honour-bound to update its website , correct this error and apologise for misleading its readers.
This new policy could lead the OIC , and particularly Ralph Cinque , to discover another photograph (4) , commonly known as "Willis 8".
Look at the far right of the photograph . Who is that man in sunglasses ? Either it is Jack Ruby , or it is his identical twin ! (5)
Another photograph of a man who looks , and dresses , like Jack Ruby can be seen on p.49 of Robert Groden's "The Killing of a President".
This photo was taken shortly after the last shot was fired at Kennedy and shows the man walking along the knoll , towards the triple underpass.
Could it have been this man who was seen by Lee Bowers , behind the Grassy Knoll Fence , prior to the shooting ? Possibly - see the Malcolm Summers drawing of the man he encountered , with a gun under his coat ,in Dealey Plaza (6).
So much for the photographic evidence. What about the eyewitness testimony ?
Julia Ann Mercer reported seeing Ruby at the wheel of a truck , from which an assembled rifle was unloaded (7).
Victoria Adams testified to the Warren Commission that she and Avery Davis saw a man who looked like Ruby (8),standing at the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street .
Possibly this was the man seen in “Willis 8”? Adams and Davis believed he was either a police officer , or a reporter.
Jean Hill also reported seeing Ruby running towards the Grassy Knoll(9).
Cameraman Mal Couch told the Warren Commission that he was told that Ruby had been seen near the TSBD , a few minutes after the assassination , though he admitted this was hearsay.
What about the ladies who claim to have seen Jack Ruby give a pistol to Lee Harvey Oswald ? What better proof could there be of Ruby and Oswald knowing eachother?
Could ALL the photographic evidence , all the  eyewitness reports , be wrong ?(11)
What about Ruby’s own words ? He did not state to the Warren Commission that he had been in Dealey Plaza. But we know , from an informant report that Ruby , allegedly , had called a friend to ask him if he wanted to come to “watch the fireworks”. That could hardly have been a literal reference to fireworks – so did Ruby go to Dealey Plaza because he had foreknowledge of the assassination ?
And how far are the offices of the Dallas Morning News from Dealey Plaza?
See for yourself  - look at the map – it’s not far at all.
What other evidence can we use ? What about Jack Ruby’s personality ? He was known as  a ‘hanger on’ , someone who wanted to be at the periphery of the action. .Respected reporter Seth Kantor said that he encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital . Ruby denied this – and the Warren Commission chose to believe him. Could Kantor have been mistaken about WHERE he saw – and spoke with – Jack Ruby ? He could , but Kantor’s recollection is specific and is likely more credible than Ruby’s denial.
And of course – Jack Ruby attended the DPD press conferences on the evening of 22nd November 1963. Was this to fulfill a mission to kill Oswald ? Or was it merely indicative of Ruby’s wish to be where the action was?
Is the official line correct ?  Or did Jack Ruby slip out of The Dallas Morning News offices , just for a few minutes , to watch a “fireworks display” , the smoke of which still casts a stench over the United States of America to this very day ?? (12)
===========================================================================­====(1)But this evidence is far from conclusive.
(2)Due to sloppy research.
(3)Is there an emoticon for "stifled , incredulous laughter" ?? If so, insert it here.
(4)It's been known to most people for 50 years (or 20 years , if we are relying solely on the internet ), so "finally find at last" , rather than "discover" , may be a more apt phrase.
(5)There is a resemblance , but it likely is not Ruby.
(6)This is reaaalllyy stretching it - but hey , I promised it would be conspiratorial in tone !
(7)Did she REALLY identify Ruby ? I don’t think so , but let’s not spoil the oft-repeated myth.
(8)This was , perfectly reasonably , after seeing television footage of Ruby. She did not actually know him.
(9)Maybe she did.Or maybe she saw a man who resembled him.Jean Hill’s story is known for having been ‘enhanced’ over the years.
(10)Does anybody seriously believe that anyone , let alone Ruby ,  handed a pistol to Oswald , shortly after the assassination and in broad daylight ?
(11)Yes, they could. Are Newnam and Walker both wrong about Ruby being at the Dallas Morning News offices  and the time of his presence?
(12)Poetic , heh ?!
Seth Kantor knew Jack Ruby and had many encounters with Ruby before the
assassination. Kantor said that he shook hands with Ruby at Parkland
hospital at about 12:50 that day. Question:..... Was Ruby able to
teleport himself from place to place in the blink of an eye?
Marcus Hanson
2013-03-04 04:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt
Seth Kantor knew Jack Ruby and had many encounters with Ruby before the
assassination. Kantor said that he shook hands with Ruby at Parkland
hospital at about 12:50 that day. Question:..... Was Ruby able to
teleport himself from place to place in the blink of an eye?
Dunno , Walt. Would he have actually needed to do so ? It's , what , three
or four miles from DP to PH ? Only a few minutes by car.
Anthony Marsh
2013-03-04 04:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt
Post by Marcus Hanson
Hey Ralph ,
As promised - free of charge , free of copyright. It is more conspiratorial than neutral or LN in tone , though there are qualifications in the notes. I don't see Ruby's presence or absence as an issue , unless you want to belive the tale of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol.I did 95 per cent of this from memory - I had to check up on a couple of points , such as Newnam's testimony , but I did not have the time (or inclination) to re-check most of it ,so it may be far from perfect. Regardless, it presents a MUCH STRONGER case for Ruby being in Dealey Plaza , than what you have(namely,incorrect speculation)on the Oswald Innocent Campaign website.You get a bit of a deserved roasting for that,but it's a small price to pay for my time. And for the increase in your knowledge.
===========================================================================­====
Was Jack Ruby in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November 1963 ?
That question has engendered much speculation and is still debated today.
The official line is that Ruby was at the offices of the Dallas Morning News.
He was seen by,and conversed with, a DMN employee named Wanda Walker.John Newnam , an advertising salesman with the DMN , told the Warren Commission that he first saw Ruby that day at 12:40pm.Newnam exchanged greetings with Ruby.
So that seems pretty clear : at the time of President Kennedy's assassination , Jack Ruby was not in Dealey Plaza.
But hang on a minute . Is there any evidence to the contrary ? Yes , there is (1). Anthony Summers , author of “Conspiracy/Not In Your Lifetime” claimed that Jack Ruby was unseen at the DMN offices for around twenty minutes . Further , The Oswald Innocent Campaign speculated(2) that Ruby was the man in the Fedora hat , captured in a photograph taken by James Altgens. Thanks to the efforts of a well-respected British researcher (3),it is now known that this was not Jack Ruby .
Ralph Cinque is responsibile for this error and will probably institute a revolutionary new policy : from hereonin , OIC will look at clear photos only and attempt identification by study of faces , rather than hats.
The researcher has explained that the man's FACE can be seen in other photographs , in Robert Groden's book "The Killing of a President".
Accordingly , OIC is honour-bound to update its website , correct this error and apologise for misleading its readers.
This new policy could lead the OIC , and particularly Ralph Cinque , to discover another photograph (4) , commonly known as "Willis 8".
Look at the far right of the photograph . Who is that man in sunglasses ? Either it is Jack Ruby , or it is his identical twin ! (5)
Another photograph of a man who looks , and dresses , like Jack Ruby can be seen on p.49 of Robert Groden's "The Killing of a President".
This photo was taken shortly after the last shot was fired at Kennedy and shows the man walking along the knoll , towards the triple underpass.
Could it have been this man who was seen by Lee Bowers , behind the Grassy Knoll Fence , prior to the shooting ? Possibly - see the Malcolm Summers drawing of the man he encountered , with a gun under his coat ,in Dealey Plaza (6).
So much for the photographic evidence. What about the eyewitness testimony ?
Julia Ann Mercer reported seeing Ruby at the wheel of a truck , from which an assembled rifle was unloaded (7).
Victoria Adams testified to the Warren Commission that she and Avery Davis saw a man who looked like Ruby (8),standing at the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street .
Possibly this was the man seen in “Willis 8”? Adams and Davis believed he was either a police officer , or a reporter.
Jean Hill also reported seeing Ruby running towards the Grassy Knoll(9).
Cameraman Mal Couch told the Warren Commission that he was told that Ruby had been seen near the TSBD , a few minutes after the assassination , though he admitted this was hearsay.
What about the ladies who claim to have seen Jack Ruby give a pistol to Lee Harvey Oswald ? What better proof could there be of Ruby and Oswald knowing eachother?
Could ALL the photographic evidence , all the eyewitness reports , be wrong ?(11)
What about Ruby’s own words ? He did not state to the Warren Commission that he had been in Dealey Plaza. But we know , from an informant report that Ruby , allegedly , had called a friend to ask him if he wanted to come to “watch the fireworks”. That could hardly have been a literal reference to fireworks – so did Ruby go to Dealey Plaza because he had foreknowledge of the assassination ?
And how far are the offices of the Dallas Morning News from Dealey Plaza?
See for yourself - look at the map – it’s not far at all.
What other evidence can we use ? What about Jack Ruby’s personality ? He was known as a ‘hanger on’ , someone who wanted to be at the periphery of the action. .Respected reporter Seth Kantor said that he encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital . Ruby denied this – and the Warren Commission chose to believe him. Could Kantor have been mistaken about WHERE he saw – and spoke with – Jack Ruby ? He could , but Kantor’s recollection is specific and is likely more credible than Ruby’s denial.
And of course – Jack Ruby attended the DPD press conferences on the evening of 22nd November 1963. Was this to fulfill a mission to kill Oswald ? Or was it merely indicative of Ruby’s wish to be where the action was?
Is the official line correct ? Or did Jack Ruby slip out of The Dallas Morning News offices , just for a few minutes , to watch a “fireworks display” , the smoke of which still casts a stench over the United States of America to this very day ?? (12)
===========================================================================­====(1)But this evidence is far from conclusive.
(2)Due to sloppy research.
(3)Is there an emoticon for "stifled , incredulous laughter" ?? If so, insert it here.
(4)It's been known to most people for 50 years (or 20 years , if we are relying solely on the internet ), so "finally find at last" , rather than "discover" , may be a more apt phrase.
(5)There is a resemblance , but it likely is not Ruby.
(6)This is reaaalllyy stretching it - but hey , I promised it would be conspiratorial in tone !
(7)Did she REALLY identify Ruby ? I don’t think so , but let’s not spoil the oft-repeated myth.
(8)This was , perfectly reasonably , after seeing television footage of Ruby. She did not actually know him.
(9)Maybe she did.Or maybe she saw a man who resembled him.Jean Hill’s story is known for having been ‘enhanced’ over the years.
(10)Does anybody seriously believe that anyone , let alone Ruby , handed a pistol to Oswald , shortly after the assassination and in broad daylight ?
(11)Yes, they could. Are Newnam and Walker both wrong about Ruby being at the Dallas Morning News offices and the time of his presence?
(12)Poetic , heh ?!
Seth Kantor knew Jack Ruby and had many encounters with Ruby before the
assassination. Kantor said that he shook hands with Ruby at Parkland
hospital at about 12:50 that day. Question:..... Was Ruby able to
teleport himself from place to place in the blink of an eye?
From which place to which place? Did you ever hear of an invention
called the automobile?
Walt
2013-03-04 23:09:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt
Post by Marcus Hanson
Hey Ralph ,
As promised - free of charge , free of copyright. It is more conspiratorial than neutral or LN in tone , though there are qualifications in the notes. I don't see Ruby's presence or absence as an issue , unless you want to belive the tale of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol.I did 95 per cent of this from memory - I had to check up on a couple of points , such as Newnam's testimony , but I did not have the time (or inclination) to re-check most of it ,so it may be far from perfect. Regardless, it presents a MUCH STRONGER case for Ruby being in Dealey Plaza , than what you have(namely,incorrect speculation)on the Oswald Innocent Campaign website.You get a bit of a deserved roasting for that,but it's a small price to pay for my time. And for the increase in your knowledge.
===========================================================================­­====
Was Jack Ruby in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November 1963 ?
That question has engendered much speculation and is still debated today.
The official line is that Ruby was at the offices of the Dallas Morning News.
He was seen by,and conversed with, a DMN employee named Wanda Walker.John Newnam , an advertising salesman with the DMN , told the Warren Commission that he first saw Ruby that day at 12:40pm.Newnam exchanged greetings with Ruby.
So that seems pretty clear : at the time of President Kennedy's assassination , Jack Ruby was not in Dealey Plaza.
But hang on a minute . Is there any evidence to the contrary ? Yes , there is (1). Anthony Summers , author of “Conspiracy/Not In Your Lifetime” claimed that Jack Ruby was unseen at the DMN offices for around twenty minutes . Further , The Oswald Innocent Campaign speculated(2) that Ruby was the man in the Fedora hat , captured in a photograph taken by James Altgens. Thanks to the efforts of a well-respected British researcher (3),it is now known that this was not Jack Ruby .
Ralph Cinque is responsibile for this error and will probably institute a revolutionary new policy : from hereonin , OIC will look at clear photos only and attempt identification by study of faces , rather than hats.
The researcher has explained that the man's FACE can be seen in other photographs , in Robert Groden's book "The Killing of a President".
Accordingly , OIC is honour-bound to update its website , correct this error and apologise for misleading its readers.
This new policy could lead the OIC , and particularly Ralph Cinque , to discover another photograph (4) , commonly known as "Willis 8".
Look at the far right of the photograph . Who is that man in sunglasses ? Either it is Jack Ruby , or it is his identical twin ! (5)
Another photograph of a man who looks , and dresses , like Jack Ruby can be seen on p.49 of Robert Groden's "The Killing of a President".
This photo was taken shortly after the last shot was fired at Kennedy and shows the man walking along the knoll , towards the triple underpass.
Could it have been this man who was seen by Lee Bowers , behind the Grassy Knoll Fence , prior to the shooting ? Possibly - see the Malcolm Summers drawing of the man he encountered , with a gun under his coat ,in Dealey Plaza (6).
So much for the photographic evidence. What about the eyewitness testimony ?
Julia Ann Mercer reported seeing Ruby at the wheel of a truck , from which an assembled rifle was unloaded (7).
Victoria Adams testified to the Warren Commission that she and Avery Davis saw a man who looked like Ruby (8),standing at the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street .
Possibly this was the man seen in “Willis 8”? Adams and Davis believed he was either a police officer , or a reporter.
Jean Hill also reported seeing Ruby running towards the Grassy Knoll(9).
Cameraman Mal Couch told the Warren Commission that he was told that Ruby had been seen near the TSBD , a few minutes after the assassination , though he admitted this was hearsay.
What about the ladies who claim to have seen Jack Ruby give a pistol to Lee Harvey Oswald ? What better proof could there be of Ruby and Oswald knowing eachother?
Could ALL the photographic evidence , all the  eyewitness reports , be wrong ?(11)
What about Ruby’s own words ? He did not state to the Warren Commission that he had been in Dealey Plaza. But we know , from an informant report that Ruby , allegedly , had called a friend to ask him if he wanted to come to “watch the fireworks”. That could hardly have been a literal reference to fireworks – so did Ruby go to Dealey Plaza because he had foreknowledge of the assassination ?
And how far are the offices of the Dallas Morning News from Dealey Plaza?
See for yourself  - look at the map – it’s not far at all.
What other evidence can we use ? What about Jack Ruby’s personality ? He was known as  a ‘hanger on’ , someone who wanted to be at the periphery of the action. .Respected reporter Seth Kantor said that he encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital . Ruby denied this – and the Warren Commission chose to believe him. Could Kantor have been mistaken about WHERE he saw – and spoke with – Jack Ruby ? He could , but Kantor’s recollection is specific and is likely more credible than Ruby’s denial.
And of course – Jack Ruby attended the DPD press conferences on the evening of 22nd November 1963. Was this to fulfill a mission to kill Oswald ? Or was it merely indicative of Ruby’s wish to be where the action was?
Is the official line correct ?  Or did Jack Ruby slip out of The Dallas Morning News offices , just for a few minutes , to watch a “fireworks display” , the smoke of which still casts a stench over the United States of America to this very day ?? (12)
===========================================================================­­====(1)But this evidence is far from conclusive.
(2)Due to sloppy research.
(3)Is there an emoticon for "stifled , incredulous laughter" ?? If so, insert it here.
(4)It's been known to most people for 50 years (or 20 years , if we are relying solely on the internet ), so "finally find at last" , rather than "discover" , may be a more apt phrase.
(5)There is a resemblance , but it likely is not Ruby.
(6)This is reaaalllyy stretching it - but hey , I promised it would be conspiratorial in tone !
(7)Did she REALLY identify Ruby ? I don’t think so , but let’s not spoil the oft-repeated myth.
(8)This was , perfectly reasonably , after seeing television footage of Ruby. She did not actually know him.
(9)Maybe she did.Or maybe she saw a man who resembled him.Jean Hill’s story is known for having been ‘enhanced’ over the years.
(10)Does anybody seriously believe that anyone , let alone Ruby ,  handed a pistol to Oswald , shortly after the assassination and in broad daylight ?
(11)Yes, they could. Are Newnam and Walker both wrong about Ruby being at the Dallas Morning News offices  and the time of his presence?
(12)Poetic , heh ?!
Seth Kantor knew Jack Ruby and had many encounters with Ruby before the
assassination.  Kantor said that he shook hands with Ruby at Parkland
hospital at about 12:50 that day.  Question:.....  Was Ruby able to
teleport himself from place to place in the blink of an eye?
 From which place to which place? Did you ever hear of an invention
called the automobile?
Ruby may have been at the Newspaper office at the time of the shooting and
It would have been in character for him to go to Parkland when he heard
that that's where the action was. I believe he was identified by people
who knew him as being at both of those places..... I don't accept photos
of Zapruder wearing a fedora in Dealey Plaza as an indication that Jack
Ruby was there.
Anthony Marsh
2013-03-05 04:48:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Walt
Post by Marcus Hanson
Hey Ralph ,
As promised - free of charge , free of copyright. It is more conspiratorial than neutral or LN in tone , though there are qualifications in the notes. I don't see Ruby's presence or absence as an issue , unless you want to belive the tale of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol.I did 95 per cent of this from memory - I had to check up on a couple of points , such as Newnam's testimony , but I did not have the time (or inclination) to re-check most of it ,so it may be far from perfect. Regardless, it presents a MUCH STRONGER case for Ruby being in Dealey Plaza , than what you have(namely,incorrect speculation)on the Oswald Innocent Campaign website.You get a bit of a deserved roasting for that,but it's a small price to pay for my time. And for the increase in your knowledge.
===========================================================================­­====
Was Jack Ruby in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November 1963 ?
That question has engendered much speculation and is still debated today.
The official line is that Ruby was at the offices of the Dallas Morning News.
He was seen by,and conversed with, a DMN employee named Wanda Walker.John Newnam , an advertising salesman with the DMN , told the Warren Commission that he first saw Ruby that day at 12:40pm.Newnam exchanged greetings with Ruby.
So that seems pretty clear : at the time of President Kennedy's assassination , Jack Ruby was not in Dealey Plaza.
But hang on a minute . Is there any evidence to the contrary ? Yes , there is (1). Anthony Summers , author of “Conspiracy/Not In Your Lifetime” claimed that Jack Ruby was unseen at the DMN offices for around twenty minutes . Further , The Oswald Innocent Campaign speculated(2) that Ruby was the man in the Fedora hat , captured in a photograph taken by James Altgens. Thanks to the efforts of a well-respected British researcher (3),it is now known that this was not Jack Ruby .
Ralph Cinque is responsibile for this error and will probably institute a revolutionary new policy : from hereonin , OIC will look at clear photos only and attempt identification by study of faces , rather than hats.
The researcher has explained that the man's FACE can be seen in other photographs , in Robert Groden's book "The Killing of a President".
Accordingly , OIC is honour-bound to update its website , correct this error and apologise for misleading its readers.
This new policy could lead the OIC , and particularly Ralph Cinque , to discover another photograph (4) , commonly known as "Willis 8".
Look at the far right of the photograph . Who is that man in sunglasses ? Either it is Jack Ruby , or it is his identical twin ! (5)
Another photograph of a man who looks , and dresses , like Jack Ruby can be seen on p.49 of Robert Groden's "The Killing of a President".
This photo was taken shortly after the last shot was fired at Kennedy and shows the man walking along the knoll , towards the triple underpass.
Could it have been this man who was seen by Lee Bowers , behind the Grassy Knoll Fence , prior to the shooting ? Possibly - see the Malcolm Summers drawing of the man he encountered , with a gun under his coat ,in Dealey Plaza (6).
So much for the photographic evidence. What about the eyewitness testimony ?
Julia Ann Mercer reported seeing Ruby at the wheel of a truck , from which an assembled rifle was unloaded (7).
Victoria Adams testified to the Warren Commission that she and Avery Davis saw a man who looked like Ruby (8),standing at the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street .
Possibly this was the man seen in “Willis 8”? Adams and Davis believed he was either a police officer , or a reporter.
Jean Hill also reported seeing Ruby running towards the Grassy Knoll(9).
Cameraman Mal Couch told the Warren Commission that he was told that Ruby had been seen near the TSBD , a few minutes after the assassination , though he admitted this was hearsay.
What about the ladies who claim to have seen Jack Ruby give a pistol to Lee Harvey Oswald ? What better proof could there be of Ruby and Oswald knowing eachother?
Could ALL the photographic evidence , all the eyewitness reports , be wrong ?(11)
What about Ruby’s own words ? He did not state to the Warren Commission that he had been in Dealey Plaza. But we know , from an informant report that Ruby , allegedly , had called a friend to ask him if he wanted to come to “watch the fireworks”. That could hardly have been a literal reference to fireworks – so did Ruby go to Dealey Plaza because he had foreknowledge of the assassination ?
And how far are the offices of the Dallas Morning News from Dealey Plaza?
See for yourself - look at the map – it’s not far at all.
What other evidence can we use ? What about Jack Ruby’s personality ? He was known as a ‘hanger on’ , someone who wanted to be at the periphery of the action. .Respected reporter Seth Kantor said that he encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital . Ruby denied this – and the Warren Commission chose to believe him. Could Kantor have been mistaken about WHERE he saw – and spoke with – Jack Ruby ? He could , but Kantor’s recollection is specific and is likely more credible than Ruby’s denial.
And of course – Jack Ruby attended the DPD press conferences on the evening of 22nd November 1963. Was this to fulfill a mission to kill Oswald ? Or was it merely indicative of Ruby’s wish to be where the action was?
Is the official line correct ? Or did Jack Ruby slip out of The Dallas Morning News offices , just for a few minutes , to watch a “fireworks display” , the smoke of which still casts a stench over the United States of America to this very day ?? (12)
===========================================================================­­====(1)But this evidence is far from conclusive.
(2)Due to sloppy research.
(3)Is there an emoticon for "stifled , incredulous laughter" ?? If so, insert it here.
(4)It's been known to most people for 50 years (or 20 years , if we are relying solely on the internet ), so "finally find at last" , rather than "discover" , may be a more apt phrase.
(5)There is a resemblance , but it likely is not Ruby.
(6)This is reaaalllyy stretching it - but hey , I promised it would be conspiratorial in tone !
(7)Did she REALLY identify Ruby ? I don’t think so , but let’s not spoil the oft-repeated myth.
(8)This was , perfectly reasonably , after seeing television footage of Ruby. She did not actually know him.
(9)Maybe she did.Or maybe she saw a man who resembled him.Jean Hill’s story is known for having been ‘enhanced’ over the years.
(10)Does anybody seriously believe that anyone , let alone Ruby , handed a pistol to Oswald , shortly after the assassination and in broad daylight ?
(11)Yes, they could. Are Newnam and Walker both wrong about Ruby being at the Dallas Morning News offices and the time of his presence?
(12)Poetic , heh ?!
Seth Kantor knew Jack Ruby and had many encounters with Ruby before the
assassination. Kantor said that he shook hands with Ruby at Parkland
hospital at about 12:50 that day. Question:..... Was Ruby able to
teleport himself from place to place in the blink of an eye?
From which place to which place? Did you ever hear of an invention
called the automobile?
Ruby may have been at the Newspaper office at the time of the shooting and
It would have been in character for him to go to Parkland when he heard
that that's where the action was. I believe he was identified by people
who knew him as being at both of those places..... I don't accept photos
of Zapruder wearing a fedora in Dealey Plaza as an indication that Jack
Ruby was there.
Not sure that that was an admission or concession or what. As for the
Fedora are you trying to claim that Zapruder wore the same exact type of
Fedora as Jack Ruby?
Ace Kefford
2013-03-05 22:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Walt
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Walt
Post by Marcus Hanson
Hey Ralph ,
As promised - free of charge , free of copyright. It is more conspiratorial than neutral or LN in tone , though there are qualifications in the notes. I don't see Ruby's presence or absence as an issue , unless you want to belive the tale of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol.I did 95 per cent of this from memory - I had to check up on a couple of points , such as Newnam's testimony , but I did not have the time (or inclination) to re-check most of it ,so it may be far from perfect. Regardless, it presents a MUCH STRONGER case for Ruby being in Dealey Plaza , than what you have(namely,incorrect speculation)on the Oswald Innocent Campaign website.You get a bit of a deserved roasting for that,but it's a small price to pay for my time. And for the increase in your knowledge.
===========================================================================­­====
Was Jack Ruby in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November 1963 ?
That question has engendered much speculation and is still debated today.
The official line is that Ruby was at the offices of the Dallas Morning News.
He was seen by,and conversed with, a DMN employee named Wanda Walker.John Newnam , an advertising salesman with the DMN , told the Warren Commission that he first saw Ruby that day at 12:40pm.Newnam exchanged greetings with Ruby.
So that seems pretty clear : at the time of President Kennedy's assassination , Jack Ruby was not in Dealey Plaza.
But hang on a minute . Is there any evidence to the contrary ? Yes , there is (1). Anthony Summers , author of “Conspiracy/Not In Your Lifetime” claimed that Jack Ruby was unseen at the DMN offices for around twenty minutes . Further , The Oswald Innocent Campaign speculated(2) that Ruby was the man in the Fedora hat , captured in a photograph taken by James Altgens. Thanks to the efforts of a well-respected British researcher (3),it is now known that this was not Jack Ruby .
Ralph Cinque is responsibile for this error and will probably institute a revolutionary new policy : from hereonin , OIC will look at clear photos only and attempt identification by study of faces , rather than hats.
The researcher has explained that the man's FACE can be seen in other photographs , in Robert Groden's book "The Killing of a President".
Accordingly , OIC is honour-bound to update its website , correct this error and apologise for misleading its readers.
This new policy could lead the OIC , and particularly Ralph Cinque , to discover another photograph (4) , commonly known as "Willis 8".
Look at the far right of the photograph . Who is that man in sunglasses ? Either it is Jack Ruby , or it is his identical twin ! (5)
Another photograph of a man who looks , and dresses , like Jack Ruby can be seen on p.49 of Robert Groden's "The Killing of a President".
This photo was taken shortly after the last shot was fired at Kennedy and shows the man walking along the knoll , towards the triple underpass.
Could it have been this man who was seen by Lee Bowers , behind the Grassy Knoll Fence , prior to the shooting ? Possibly - see the Malcolm Summers drawing of the man he encountered , with a gun under his coat ,in Dealey Plaza (6).
So much for the photographic evidence. What about the eyewitness testimony ?
Julia Ann Mercer reported seeing Ruby at the wheel of a truck , from which an assembled rifle was unloaded (7).
Victoria Adams testified to the Warren Commission that she and Avery Davis saw a man who looked like Ruby (8),standing at the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street .
Possibly this was the man seen in “Willis 8”? Adams and Davis believed he was either a police officer , or a reporter.
Jean Hill also reported seeing Ruby running towards the Grassy Knoll(9).
Cameraman Mal Couch told the Warren Commission that he was told that Ruby had been seen near the TSBD , a few minutes after the assassination , though he admitted this was hearsay.
What about the ladies who claim to have seen Jack Ruby give a pistol to Lee Harvey Oswald ? What better proof could there be of Ruby and Oswald knowing eachother?
Could ALL the photographic evidence , all the eyewitness reports , be wrong ?(11)
What about Ruby’s own words ? He did not state to the Warren Commission that he had been in Dealey Plaza. But we know , from an informant report that Ruby , allegedly , had called a friend to ask him if he wanted to come to “watch the fireworks”. That could hardly have been a literal reference to fireworks – so did Ruby go to Dealey Plaza because he had foreknowledge of the assassination ?
And how far are the offices of the Dallas Morning News from Dealey Plaza?
See for yourself - look at the map – it’s not far at all.
What other evidence can we use ? What about Jack Ruby’s personality ? He was known as a ‘hanger on’ , someone who wanted to be at the periphery of the action. .Respected reporter Seth Kantor said that he encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital . Ruby denied this – and the Warren Commission chose to believe him. Could Kantor have been mistaken about WHERE he saw – and spoke with – Jack Ruby ? He could , but Kantor’s recollection is specific and is likely more credible than Ruby’s denial.
And of course – Jack Ruby attended the DPD press conferences on the evening of 22nd November 1963. Was this to fulfill a mission to kill Oswald ? Or was it merely indicative of Ruby’s wish to be where the action was?
Is the official line correct ? Or did Jack Ruby slip out of The Dallas Morning News offices , just for a few minutes , to watch a “fireworks display” , the smoke of which still casts a stench over the United States of America to this very day ?? (12)
===========================================================================­­====(1)But this evidence is far from conclusive.
(2)Due to sloppy research.
(3)Is there an emoticon for "stifled , incredulous laughter" ?? If so, insert it here.
(4)It's been known to most people for 50 years (or 20 years , if we are relying solely on the internet ), so "finally find at last" , rather than "discover" , may be a more apt phrase.
(5)There is a resemblance , but it likely is not Ruby.
(6)This is reaaalllyy stretching it - but hey , I promised it would be conspiratorial in tone !
(7)Did she REALLY identify Ruby ? I don’t think so , but let’s not spoil the oft-repeated myth.
(8)This was , perfectly reasonably , after seeing television footage of Ruby. She did not actually know him.
(9)Maybe she did.Or maybe she saw a man who resembled him.Jean Hill’s story is known for having been ‘enhanced’ over the years.
(10)Does anybody seriously believe that anyone , let alone Ruby , handed a pistol to Oswald , shortly after the assassination and in broad daylight ?
(11)Yes, they could. Are Newnam and Walker both wrong about Ruby being at the Dallas Morning News offices and the time of his presence?
(12)Poetic , heh ?!
Seth Kantor knew Jack Ruby and had many encounters with Ruby before the
assassination. Kantor said that he shook hands with Ruby at Parkland
hospital at about 12:50 that day. Question:..... Was Ruby able to
teleport himself from place to place in the blink of an eye?
From which place to which place? Did you ever hear of an invention
called the automobile?
Ruby may have been at the Newspaper office at the time of the shooting and
It would have been in character for him to go to Parkland when he heard
that that's where the action was. I believe he was identified by people
who knew him as being at both of those places..... I don't accept photos
of Zapruder wearing a fedora in Dealey Plaza as an indication that Jack
Ruby was there.
Not sure that that was an admission or concession or what. As for the
Fedora are you trying to claim that Zapruder wore the same exact type of
Fedora as Jack Ruby?
And what about the hat size? Even if the same general model/type, the
different lines might add certain embellishments while using the same
manufacturer for the base components of the hat. Moreover, hats like
shoes are sized, and so one cannot say it is the same shoe/hat unless one
also determines the size. This can sometimes be approximated by things
like extrapolations from known physical landmarks and shadows.
Anthony Marsh
2013-03-07 02:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ace Kefford
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Walt
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Walt
Post by Marcus Hanson
Hey Ralph ,
As promised - free of charge , free of copyright. It is more conspiratorial than neutral or LN in tone , though there are qualifications in the notes. I don't see Ruby's presence or absence as an issue , unless you want to belive the tale of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol.I did 95 per cent of this from memory - I had to check up on a couple of points , such as Newnam's testimony , but I did not have the time (or inclination) to re-check most of it ,so it may be far from perfect. Regardless, it presents a MUCH STRONGER case for Ruby being in Dealey Plaza , than what you have(namely,incorrect speculation)on the Oswald Innocent Campaign website.You get a bit of a deserved roasting for that,but it's a small price to pay for my time. And for the increase in your knowledge.
===========================================================================­­====
Was Jack Ruby in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November 1963 ?
That question has engendered much speculation and is still debated today.
The official line is that Ruby was at the offices of the Dallas Morning News.
He was seen by,and conversed with, a DMN employee named Wanda Walker.John Newnam , an advertising salesman with the DMN , told the Warren Commission that he first saw Ruby that day at 12:40pm.Newnam exchanged greetings with Ruby.
So that seems pretty clear : at the time of President Kennedy's assassination , Jack Ruby was not in Dealey Plaza.
But hang on a minute . Is there any evidence to the contrary ? Yes , there is (1). Anthony Summers , author of “Conspiracy/Not In Your Lifetime” claimed that Jack Ruby was unseen at the DMN offices for around twenty minutes . Further , The Oswald Innocent Campaign speculated(2) that Ruby was the man in the Fedora hat , captured in a photograph taken by James Altgens. Thanks to the efforts of a well-respected British researcher (3),it is now known that this was not Jack Ruby .
Ralph Cinque is responsibile for this error and will probably institute a revolutionary new policy : from hereonin , OIC will look at clear photos only and attempt identification by study of faces , rather than hats.
The researcher has explained that the man's FACE can be seen in other photographs , in Robert Groden's book "The Killing of a President".
Accordingly , OIC is honour-bound to update its website , correct this error and apologise for misleading its readers.
This new policy could lead the OIC , and particularly Ralph Cinque , to discover another photograph (4) , commonly known as "Willis 8".
Look at the far right of the photograph . Who is that man in sunglasses ? Either it is Jack Ruby , or it is his identical twin ! (5)
Another photograph of a man who looks , and dresses , like Jack Ruby can be seen on p.49 of Robert Groden's "The Killing of a President".
This photo was taken shortly after the last shot was fired at Kennedy and shows the man walking along the knoll , towards the triple underpass.
Could it have been this man who was seen by Lee Bowers , behind the Grassy Knoll Fence , prior to the shooting ? Possibly - see the Malcolm Summers drawing of the man he encountered , with a gun under his coat ,in Dealey Plaza (6).
So much for the photographic evidence. What about the eyewitness testimony ?
Julia Ann Mercer reported seeing Ruby at the wheel of a truck , from which an assembled rifle was unloaded (7).
Victoria Adams testified to the Warren Commission that she and Avery Davis saw a man who looked like Ruby (8),standing at the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street .
Possibly this was the man seen in “Willis 8”? Adams and Davis believed he was either a police officer , or a reporter.
Jean Hill also reported seeing Ruby running towards the Grassy Knoll(9).
Cameraman Mal Couch told the Warren Commission that he was told that Ruby had been seen near the TSBD , a few minutes after the assassination , though he admitted this was hearsay.
What about the ladies who claim to have seen Jack Ruby give a pistol to Lee Harvey Oswald ? What better proof could there be of Ruby and Oswald knowing eachother?
Could ALL the photographic evidence , all the eyewitness reports , be wrong ?(11)
What about Ruby’s own words ? He did not state to the Warren Commission that he had been in Dealey Plaza. But we know , from an informant report that Ruby , allegedly , had called a friend to ask him if he wanted to come to “watch the fireworks”. That could hardly have been a literal reference to fireworks – so did Ruby go to Dealey Plaza because he had foreknowledge of the assassination ?
And how far are the offices of the Dallas Morning News from Dealey Plaza?
See for yourself - look at the map – it’s not far at all.
What other evidence can we use ? What about Jack Ruby’s personality ? He was known as a ‘hanger on’ , someone who wanted to be at the periphery of the action. .Respected reporter Seth Kantor said that he encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital . Ruby denied this – and the Warren Commission chose to believe him. Could Kantor have been mistaken about WHERE he saw – and spoke with – Jack Ruby ? He could , but Kantor’s recollection is specific and is likely more credible than Ruby’s denial.
And of course – Jack Ruby attended the DPD press conferences on the evening of 22nd November 1963. Was this to fulfill a mission to kill Oswald ? Or was it merely indicative of Ruby’s wish to be where the action was?
Is the official line correct ? Or did Jack Ruby slip out of The Dallas Morning News offices , just for a few minutes , to watch a “fireworks display” , the smoke of which still casts a stench over the United States of America to this very day ?? (12)
===========================================================================­­====(1)But this evidence is far from conclusive.
(2)Due to sloppy research.
(3)Is there an emoticon for "stifled , incredulous laughter" ?? If so, insert it here.
(4)It's been known to most people for 50 years (or 20 years , if we are relying solely on the internet ), so "finally find at last" , rather than "discover" , may be a more apt phrase.
(5)There is a resemblance , but it likely is not Ruby.
(6)This is reaaalllyy stretching it - but hey , I promised it would be conspiratorial in tone !
(7)Did she REALLY identify Ruby ? I don’t think so , but let’s not spoil the oft-repeated myth.
(8)This was , perfectly reasonably , after seeing television footage of Ruby. She did not actually know him.
(9)Maybe she did.Or maybe she saw a man who resembled him.Jean Hill’s story is known for having been ‘enhanced’ over the years.
(10)Does anybody seriously believe that anyone , let alone Ruby , handed a pistol to Oswald , shortly after the assassination and in broad daylight ?
(11)Yes, they could. Are Newnam and Walker both wrong about Ruby being at the Dallas Morning News offices and the time of his presence?
(12)Poetic , heh ?!
Seth Kantor knew Jack Ruby and had many encounters with Ruby before the
assassination. Kantor said that he shook hands with Ruby at Parkland
hospital at about 12:50 that day. Question:..... Was Ruby able to
teleport himself from place to place in the blink of an eye?
From which place to which place? Did you ever hear of an invention
called the automobile?
Ruby may have been at the Newspaper office at the time of the shooting and
It would have been in character for him to go to Parkland when he heard
that that's where the action was. I believe he was identified by people
who knew him as being at both of those places..... I don't accept photos
of Zapruder wearing a fedora in Dealey Plaza as an indication that Jack
Ruby was there.
Not sure that that was an admission or concession or what. As for the
Fedora are you trying to claim that Zapruder wore the same exact type of
Fedora as Jack Ruby?
And what about the hat size? Even if the same general model/type, the
different lines might add certain embellishments while using the same
manufacturer for the base components of the hat. Moreover, hats like
shoes are sized, and so one cannot say it is the same shoe/hat unless one
also determines the size. This can sometimes be approximated by things
like extrapolations from known physical landmarks and shadows.
I wasn't even going to go there. Just the general appearance at a glance.
I would never claim it was EXACTLY the same hat.
How can Jack Ruby be wearing Zapruder's hat while Zapruder is wearing it?
Ralph Cinque
2013-03-04 04:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Our reference to the possibility that Fedora Hat Man in Altgens could have
been Jack Ruby shall remain. You have got some nerve mouthing off when you
haven't even read Jim Douglass. I've been there. It's all very close and
compacted. Ruby could easily have made from the obelisk to the corner of
Elm and Houston by the time Vickey Adams got outside. So, that checks out.
And, where do you get the nerve to claim something in a photograph without
posting it? What is wrong with your mind?

And listen up, Hanson: it doesn't even matter. It's still Oswald in the
doorway, whether or not it was Ruby standing nearby. If it turned out not
to be Ruby in the Altgens, it wouldn't a change thing about Doorway Man.
He is Lee Harvey Oswald as sure as the guy in the cape and tights is
Superman.
Marcus Hanson
2013-03-05 22:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Cinque
Our reference to the possibility that Fedora Hat Man in Altgens could have
been Jack Ruby shall remain. You have got some nerve mouthing off when you
haven't even read Jim Douglass. I've been there. It's all very close and
compacted. Ruby could easily have made from the obelisk to the corner of
Elm and Houston by the time Vickey Adams got outside. So, that checks out.
And, where do you get the nerve to claim something in a photograph without
posting it? What is wrong with your mind?
And listen up, Hanson: it doesn't even matter. It's still Oswald in the
doorway, whether or not it was Ruby standing nearby. If it turned out not
to be Ruby in the Altgens, it wouldn't a change thing about Doorway Man.
He is Lee Harvey Oswald as sure as the guy in the cape and tights is
Superman.
Hello Ralph.
I replied yesterday but it looks like the post has disappeared.
I would not want you to think you'd had the last word and infer that you
are right.

Anyway :

OK, suit yourself! Leave it there - but you will look even more foolish
than you do already.I am right and you are wrong.It really is that simple.
I know your ego is far too delicate to admit it,but I know more about the
arguments for,or against,Ruby's presence in DP than you do.
Maybe though you've caught up now ,after reading the above.

Why not LOOK through Robert Groden's book , The Killing of a President?
As I've said before,I am no fan of Mr.Groden's text,but the photographs
are a treasure. If you bother to LOOK at TKOAP,you will see a photograph of
your "Fedora Man" and you will be forced to concede he IS NOT Jack Ruby.
Open your eyes and , for once , take a pause to consider that you might
just be wrong on this point. Because you ARE wrong.
If anything,he looks more like LBJ!

Can you not see that OTHER photographs I've mentioned lend some
SUPPORT(if only tenuously)to your belief about Ruby being in DP? I doubt
you knew of them before today , else you'd have mentioned them on OIC.

As I've already stated,Professor Douglass is a THEOLOGIAN.Why should I
fill his pockets? Would you look for spiritual savaltion from,say,a wounds
ballistics expert? Have you bothered to read John's review?

Where do I get the nerve to refer to a photograph,but not post it? Geez
Ralph - I have handed you a ton of information on a platter for free
already! Do not get accustomed to it - I expect you to do some checking BY
YOURSELF. Or enlist the help of your team of,how many is it,eight or nine
OIC researchers?

Instead of reading the latest book,do some primary/independent research.
Have you ever done that? I am restricted by distance,but I have
spoken,corresponded, or met with a variety of people with an interest in,or
knowledge of,various aspects of the case.These people include authors,
researchers, ballistics experts,legal professionals, a former Warren
Commission counsel and a FASSA agent. Granted , it is not much - but I bet
it is a heck of a lot more than YOU have done.

Still avoiding the issue of the Altgens negative,Ralph? I guess it is
time for me to take a leaf out of Anthony's book - and not bother to ask
you about it again.Because you will never address that,will you?

One more point : you called me by my surname.As you know,I am British.
Sure,addressing folks by their last name is USUALLY a sign of disrespect.
But in my culture,it is also a sign of affection between friends.
Parodoxical, but true ! You know what,Ralph ? I'm going to interpret your
"Hanson" greeting benignly !

I may disagree with you,but never to the point where it will affect my
blood pressure Or get me calling you "Cinque".

I have never sought to make either friends or enemies in discussions
about the case - polite exchanges,with people of both LN and CT
persuasion,is all I seek.
You are an opponent,Ralph - but you are =not= an enemy.

Ooohhh ...PS - Wes Frazier has been given a 'heads up' about Team Ralph
finding his address (you SURE you know where he lives?)and you saying he is
a liar.
Yeah,there are matters that =I= would love to ask him about - maybe even
the same matters as those that interest you. But I'd be far more subtle and
diplomatic about it. Your attitude to Frazier appears a bit hostile and is
likely counterproductive. Pause to consider , Ralph - pause to consider.

Rgds,

Marcus
Walt
2013-03-07 02:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Cinque
Our reference to the possibility that Fedora Hat Man in Altgens could have
been Jack Ruby shall remain. You have got some nerve mouthing off when you
haven't even read Jim Douglass. I've been there. It's all very close and
compacted. Ruby could easily have made from the obelisk to the corner of
Elm and Houston by the time Vickey Adams got outside. So, that checks out.
And, where do you get the nerve to claim something in a photograph without
posting it?  What is wrong with your mind?
And listen up, Hanson: it doesn't even matter. It's still Oswald in the
doorway, whether or not it was Ruby standing nearby. If it turned out not
to be Ruby in the Altgens, it wouldn't a change thing about Doorway Man.
He is Lee Harvey Oswald as sure as the guy in the cape and tights is
Superman.
 Hello Ralph.
 I replied yesterday but it looks like the post has disappeared.
 I would not want you to think you'd had the last word and infer that you
 are right.
 OK, suit yourself! Leave it there - but you will look even more foolish
 than you do already.I am right and you are wrong.It really is that simple.
 I know your ego is far too delicate to admit it,but I know more about the
 arguments for,or against,Ruby's presence in DP than you do.
 Maybe though you've caught up now ,after reading the above.
 Why not LOOK through Robert Groden's book , The Killing of a President?
 As I've said before,I am no fan of Mr.Groden's text,but the photographs
 are a treasure. If you bother to LOOK at TKOAP,you will see a photograph of
 your "Fedora Man" and you will be forced to concede he IS NOT Jack Ruby.
 Open your eyes and , for once , take a pause to consider that you might
 just be wrong on this point. Because you ARE wrong.
 If anything,he looks more like LBJ!
Hi Marcus.....You're spot on, in your assessment of Groden's TKOAP. The
photos tell the story far better than the text. Since you mentioned
Groden's TKOAP could you look at pages 68 and 186 and render your opinion
about a couple of photos? First off, on page 186 there is a picture of a
reddish brown shirt in the upper right hand corner of the page. Can you
determine if the right elbow of that shirt is torn? Now look on page 68
and notice the photo in the upper left hand corner of that page. Can you
determine if that brown shirt that is on page 186 is shown in the photo on
page 68?
 Can you not see that OTHER photographs I've mentioned lend some
 SUPPORT(if only tenuously)to your belief about Ruby being in DP? I doubt
 you knew of them before today , else you'd have mentioned them on OIC.
 As I've already stated,Professor Douglass is a THEOLOGIAN.Why should I
 fill his pockets? Would you look for spiritual savaltion from,say,a wounds
 ballistics expert? Have you bothered to read John's review?
 Where do I get the nerve to refer to a photograph,but not post it? Geez
 Ralph - I have handed you a ton of information on a platter for free
 already! Do not get accustomed to it - I expect you to do some checking BY
 YOURSELF. Or enlist the help of your team of,how many is it,eight or nine
 OIC researchers?
 Instead of reading the latest book,do some primary/independent research.
 Have you ever done that? I am restricted by distance,but I have
 spoken,corresponded, or met with a variety of people with an interest in,or
 knowledge of,various aspects of the case.These people include authors,
 researchers, ballistics experts,legal professionals, a former Warren
 Commission counsel and a FASSA agent. Granted , it is not much - but I bet
 it is a heck of a lot more than YOU have done.
 Still avoiding the issue of the Altgens negative,Ralph? I guess it is
 time for me to take a leaf out of Anthony's book - and not bother to ask
 you about it again.Because you will never address that,will you?
 One more point : you called me by my surname.As you know,I am British.
 Sure,addressing folks by their last name is USUALLY a sign of disrespect.
 But in my culture,it is also a sign of affection between friends.
 Parodoxical, but true ! You know what,Ralph ? I'm going to interpret your
 "Hanson" greeting benignly !
 I may disagree with you,but never to the point where it will affect my
 blood pressure Or get me calling you "Cinque".
 I have never sought to make either friends or enemies in discussions
 about the case - polite exchanges,with people of both LN and CT
 persuasion,is all I seek.
 You are an opponent,Ralph - but you are =not= an enemy.
 Ooohhh ...PS - Wes Frazier has been given a 'heads up' about Team Ralph
 finding his address (you SURE you know where he lives?)and you saying he is
 a liar.
 Yeah,there are matters that =I= would love to ask him about - maybe even
 the same matters as those that interest you. But I'd be far more subtle and
 diplomatic about it. Your attitude to Frazier appears a bit hostile and is
 likely counterproductive. Pause to consider , Ralph - pause to consider.
 Rgds,
 Marcus
Marcus Hanson
2013-03-07 15:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt
Hi Marcus.....You're spot on, in your assessment of Groden's TKOAP. The
photos tell the story far better than the text. Since you mentioned
Groden's TKOAP could you look at pages 68 and 186 and render your opinion
about a couple of photos? First off, on page 186 there is a picture of a
reddish brown shirt in the upper right hand corner of the page. Can you
determine if the right elbow of that shirt is torn? Now look on page 68
and notice the photo in the upper left hand corner of that page. Can you
determine if that brown shirt that is on page 186 is shown in the photo on
page 68?
Hey Walt - interesting observation you make - never noticed that before.

IMO,the slim guy with the "college boy" haircut,looking to the left and
stooping slightly forward as he walks(top photo.p.68),looks to be wearing
a plaid shirt, which resembles the one worn by Lovelady/Doorman in the
Altgens photo.

The man immediately to his right,looking towards the train,and standing
more upright? Hard to tell,because of the effects of light and shadow,but
I would say his shirt looks more plain than plaid.Could he be mistaken for
LHO? Maybe,but you know I like to ID by the face,not the back of a head!
:-) Anyway,I don't know of anybody who thinks LHO , post assassination
,was hanging round the car park.

As for the shirt photo on p186 : yes,it sure does look torn at the right
elbow. Stating the obvious,we cannot see the RIGHT elbow of either man in
the photo on p.68,because only the left elbows are towards the camera.

For more on LHO's clothes(tears,disintegration and all),please look here :

Loading Image...

and here :

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Oswald_Clothes_2

By the way,here's something odd : my twenty year-old copy of TKOAP is in
great condition,except for p.186:it matches the shirt,insofar as it is the
ONLY one of all the 223 pages,which is partially torn! Ain't that spooky
?!

Rgds,

Marcus
Walt
2013-03-07 21:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcus Hanson
Post by Walt
Hi Marcus.....You're spot on, in your assessment of Groden's TKOAP. The
photos tell the story far better than the text.  Since you mentioned
Groden's TKOAP could you look at pages 68 and 186 and render your opinion
about a couple of photos?  First off, on page 186 there is a picture of a
reddish brown shirt in the upper right hand corner of the page. Can you
determine if the right elbow of that shirt is torn?  Now look on page 68
and notice the photo in the upper left hand corner of that page.  Can you
determine if that brown shirt that is on page 186 is shown in the photo on
page 68?
Hey Walt - interesting observation you make - never noticed that before.
IMO,the slim guy with the "college boy" haircut,looking to the left and
stooping slightly forward as he walks(top photo.p.68),looks to be wearing
a plaid shirt, which resembles the one worn by Lovelady/Doorman in the
Altgens photo.
The man immediately to his right,looking towards the train,and standing
more upright? Hard to tell,because of the effects of light and shadow,but
I would say his shirt looks more plain than plaid.Could he be mistaken for
LHO? Maybe,but you know I like to ID by the face,not the back of a head!
:-) Anyway,I don't know of anybody who thinks LHO , post assassination
,was hanging round the car park.
As for the shirt photo on p186 : yes,it sure does look torn at the right
elbow. Stating the obvious,we cannot see the RIGHT elbow of either man in
the photo on p.68,because only the left elbows are towards the camera.
http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/24220085be.gif
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Os...
By the way,here's something odd : my twenty year-old copy of TKOAP is in
great condition,except for p.186:it matches the shirt,insofar as it is the
ONLY one of all the 223 pages,which is partially torn! Ain't that spooky
?!
Rgds,
Marcus
Thanks Marcus...... Referring to your last comment..... I'm certain
that the authorities were desperate to link Lee oswald to te scene of
the crime....and MAKE IT APPEAR that he had "FLED" by bus and taxi.
The used a senile old woman as a witness that had seen Lee Oswald on
Mc Watter's bus. But she was so unreliable that they needed something
very easy for her to remember, like a torn elbow in his shirt. It is
an established FACT that the authorities took the brown plaid shirt
out to her home in Oak Cliff and displayed the shirt to her. They let
her examine the shirt, even if she'd have been nearly blind, she would
have noticed that very distinctive torn elbow. It's entirely possible
that the elbow was deliberately torn to enable that feeble minded old
woman to have something positive by which to identify the shirt that
she claimed that she saw on Lee Oswald that day.

Now referring to your comment of.....he man (in the photo on page 68)
immediately to his right,looking towards the train,and standing more
upright? Hard to tell,because of the effects of light and shadow,but I
would say his shirt looks more plain than plaid.Could he be mistaken
for LHO? Maybe,but you know I like to ID by the face,not the back of a
head!
:-)

Sorry.....I'll ask that man to turn around for you....:) Do you
have access to Groden's The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald? If you do,
look on page 52 and see the man in the photo in the middle of the left
hand side of the page. In that photo you can see the same pose as the
man in the brown shirt on page 68 of TKOAP.....coincidence??

Anyway,I don't know of anybody who thinks LHO , post assassination
Post by Marcus Hanson
,was hanging round the car park.
Walt
2013-03-07 21:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcus Hanson
Post by Walt
Hi Marcus.....You're spot on, in your assessment of Groden's TKOAP. The
photos tell the story far better than the text.  Since you mentioned
Groden's TKOAP could you look at pages 68 and 186 and render your opinion
about a couple of photos?  First off, on page 186 there is a picture of a
reddish brown shirt in the upper right hand corner of the page. Can you
determine if the right elbow of that shirt is torn?  Now look on page 68
and notice the photo in the upper left hand corner of that page.  Can you
determine if that brown shirt that is on page 186 is shown in the photo on
page 68?
Hey Walt - interesting observation you make - never noticed that before.
IMO,the slim guy with the "college boy" haircut,looking to the left and
stooping slightly forward as he walks(top photo.p.68),looks to be wearing
a plaid shirt, which resembles the one worn by Lovelady/Doorman in the
Altgens photo.
You're right.....that is Bill .."BILL"... Lovelady. Do you remember
what Lee told his interrogators?

Lee said that after he left the lunchroom where officer Baker had
encountered him, he went OUT FRONT and stood around wil "BILL" Shelley
a few minutes before deciding that there wasn't going to be anymore
work accomplished that day, and therefore he decided to go to the
movies. Let's assume that Lee didn't know that BILL wasn't Mr
Shelley. He'd only worked at the TSBD for a few weeks and he didn't
socialize with his fellow employees so it's very possible that he
thought that Bill Lovelady was Bill Shelley. Thus the photo on Page
68 confirms his statement to his interrogators as being a rue
statement. Lee said...."I went out front and stood around talking to
Bill ______ for a few minutes before I decided to go to the movie"
Post by Marcus Hanson
The man immediately to his right,looking towards the train,and standing
more upright? Hard to tell,because of the effects of light and shadow,but
I would say his shirt looks more plain than plaid.Could he be mistaken for
LHO? Maybe,but you know I like to ID by the face,not the back of a head!
:-) Anyway,I don't know of anybody who thinks LHO , post assassination
,was hanging round the car park.
As for the shirt photo on p186 : yes,it sure does look torn at the right
elbow. Stating the obvious,we cannot see the RIGHT elbow of either man in
the photo on p.68,because only the left elbows are towards the camera.
http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/24220085be.gif
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Os...
By the way,here's something odd : my twenty year-old copy of TKOAP is in
great condition,except for p.186:it matches the shirt,insofar as it is the
ONLY one of all the 223 pages,which is partially torn! Ain't that spooky
?!
Rgds,
Marcus
Anthony Marsh
2013-03-08 20:02:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt
Post by Marcus Hanson
Post by Walt
Hi Marcus.....You're spot on, in your assessment of Groden's TKOAP. The
photos tell the story far better than the text. Since you mentioned
Groden's TKOAP could you look at pages 68 and 186 and render your opinion
about a couple of photos? First off, on page 186 there is a picture of a
reddish brown shirt in the upper right hand corner of the page. Can you
determine if the right elbow of that shirt is torn? Now look on page 68
and notice the photo in the upper left hand corner of that page. Can you
determine if that brown shirt that is on page 186 is shown in the photo on
page 68?
Hey Walt - interesting observation you make - never noticed that before.
IMO,the slim guy with the "college boy" haircut,looking to the left and
stooping slightly forward as he walks(top photo.p.68),looks to be wearing
a plaid shirt, which resembles the one worn by Lovelady/Doorman in the
Altgens photo.
You're right.....that is Bill .."BILL"... Lovelady. Do you remember
what Lee told his interrogators?
Lee said that after he left the lunchroom where officer Baker had
encountered him, he went OUT FRONT and stood around wil "BILL" Shelley
a few minutes before deciding that there wasn't going to be anymore
work accomplished that day, and therefore he decided to go to the
movies. Let's assume that Lee didn't know that BILL wasn't Mr
Is that exactly what Oswald said or what Fritz thought?
How do you know that Fritz got the chronology right in his shorthand?
Post by Walt
Shelley. He'd only worked at the TSBD for a few weeks and he didn't
socialize with his fellow employees so it's very possible that he
thought that Bill Lovelady was Bill Shelley. Thus the photo on Page
68 confirms his statement to his interrogators as being a rue
statement. Lee said...."I went out front and stood around talking to
Bill ______ for a few minutes before I decided to go to the movie"
Post by Marcus Hanson
The man immediately to his right,looking towards the train,and standing
more upright? Hard to tell,because of the effects of light and shadow,but
I would say his shirt looks more plain than plaid.Could he be mistaken for
LHO? Maybe,but you know I like to ID by the face,not the back of a head!
:-) Anyway,I don't know of anybody who thinks LHO , post assassination
,was hanging round the car park.
As for the shirt photo on p186 : yes,it sure does look torn at the right
elbow. Stating the obvious,we cannot see the RIGHT elbow of either man in
the photo on p.68,because only the left elbows are towards the camera.
http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/24220085be.gif
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Os...
By the way,here's something odd : my twenty year-old copy of TKOAP is in
great condition,except for p.186:it matches the shirt,insofar as it is the
ONLY one of all the 223 pages,which is partially torn! Ain't that spooky
?!
Rgds,
Marcus
Walt
2013-03-09 01:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Marcus Hanson
Post by Walt
Hi Marcus.....You're spot on, in your assessment of Groden's TKOAP. The
photos tell the story far better than the text.  Since you mentioned
Groden's TKOAP could you look at pages 68 and 186 and render your opinion
about a couple of photos?  First off, on page 186 there is a picture of a
reddish brown shirt in the upper right hand corner of the page. Can you
determine if the right elbow of that shirt is torn?  Now look on page 68
and notice the photo in the upper left hand corner of that page.  Can you
determine if that brown shirt that is on page 186 is shown in the photo on
page 68?
Hey Walt - interesting observation you make - never noticed that before.
IMO,the slim guy with the "college boy" haircut,looking to the left and
stooping slightly forward as he walks(top photo.p.68),looks to be wearing
a plaid shirt, which resembles the one worn by Lovelady/Doorman in the
Altgens photo.
You're right.....that is Bill .."BILL"... Lovelady.    Do you remember
what Lee told his interrogators?
Lee said that after he left the lunchroom where officer Baker had
encountered him, he went OUT FRONT and stood around wil "BILL" Shelley
a few minutes before deciding that there wasn't going to be anymore
work accomplished that day, and therefore he decided to go to the
movies. Let's assume that Lee didn't know that BILL wasn't Mr
Is that exactly what Oswald said or what Fritz thought?
How do you know that Fritz got the chronology right in his shorthand?
It wasn't only Fritz notes that indicate that Lee told his
interrogators that he stood around outside with "Bill" after his
encounter with officer Baker, look on page 619 of WR and you'll find
the report of FBI agent James Bookhout. In that report Bookhout
wrote.........
Oswald stated that "He went outside and stood around for five or ten
minutes with foreman Bill &%@$#% and thereafter went home. The &%@$#
% indicates that the last nane of "Bill" has been altered on this
report. Since there are photos that show Lee standing near Bill
LOVELADY in front of the TSBD it seems that Lee told them he had stood
around for rive or ten minutes with Bill Lovelady and NOT Bill
Shelley. But they had to change "Bill's" last name to make it appear
that Oswald had lied.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Shelley.   He'd only worked at the TSBD for a few weeks and he didn't
socialize with his fellow employees so it's very possible that he
thought that Bill Lovelady was Bill Shelley.  Thus the photo on Page
68 confirms his statement to his interrogators as being a rue
statement.   Lee said...."I went out front and stood around talking to
Bill  ______ for a few minutes before I decided to go to the movie"
Post by Marcus Hanson
The man immediately to his right,looking towards the train,and standing
more upright? Hard to tell,because of the effects of light and shadow,but
I would say his shirt looks more plain than plaid.Could he be mistaken for
LHO? Maybe,but you know I like to ID by the face,not the back of a head!
:-) Anyway,I don't know of anybody who thinks LHO , post assassination
,was hanging round the car park.
As for the shirt photo on p186 : yes,it sure does look torn at the right
elbow. Stating the obvious,we cannot see the RIGHT elbow of either man in
the photo on p.68,because only the left elbows are towards the camera.
http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/24220085be.gif
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Os...
By the way,here's something odd : my twenty year-old copy of TKOAP is in
great condition,except for p.186:it matches the shirt,insofar as it is the
ONLY one of all the 223 pages,which is partially torn! Ain't that spooky
?!
Rgds,
Marcus
Anthony Marsh
2013-03-10 00:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walt
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Walt
Post by Marcus Hanson
Post by Walt
Hi Marcus.....You're spot on, in your assessment of Groden's TKOAP. The
photos tell the story far better than the text. Since you mentioned
Groden's TKOAP could you look at pages 68 and 186 and render your opinion
about a couple of photos? First off, on page 186 there is a picture of a
reddish brown shirt in the upper right hand corner of the page. Can you
determine if the right elbow of that shirt is torn? Now look on page 68
and notice the photo in the upper left hand corner of that page. Can you
determine if that brown shirt that is on page 186 is shown in the photo on
page 68?
Hey Walt - interesting observation you make - never noticed that before.
IMO,the slim guy with the "college boy" haircut,looking to the left and
stooping slightly forward as he walks(top photo.p.68),looks to be wearing
a plaid shirt, which resembles the one worn by Lovelady/Doorman in the
Altgens photo.
You're right.....that is Bill .."BILL"... Lovelady. Do you remember
what Lee told his interrogators?
Lee said that after he left the lunchroom where officer Baker had
encountered him, he went OUT FRONT and stood around wil "BILL" Shelley
a few minutes before deciding that there wasn't going to be anymore
work accomplished that day, and therefore he decided to go to the
movies. Let's assume that Lee didn't know that BILL wasn't Mr
Is that exactly what Oswald said or what Fritz thought?
How do you know that Fritz got the chronology right in his shorthand?
It wasn't only Fritz notes that indicate that Lee told his
interrogators that he stood around outside with "Bill" after his
encounter with officer Baker, look on page 619 of WR and you'll find
the report of FBI agent James Bookhout. In that report Bookhout
wrote.........
Oswald stated that "He went outside and stood around for five or ten
% indicates that the last nane of "Bill" has been altered on this
report. Since there are photos that show Lee standing near Bill
LOVELADY in front of the TSBD it seems that Lee told them he had stood
around for rive or ten minutes with Bill Lovelady and NOT Bill
Shelley. But they had to change "Bill's" last name to make it appear
that Oswald had lied.
Fun to guess, isn't it?
Post by Walt
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Walt
Shelley. He'd only worked at the TSBD for a few weeks and he didn't
socialize with his fellow employees so it's very possible that he
thought that Bill Lovelady was Bill Shelley. Thus the photo on Page
68 confirms his statement to his interrogators as being a rue
statement. Lee said...."I went out front and stood around talking to
Bill ______ for a few minutes before I decided to go to the movie"
Post by Marcus Hanson
The man immediately to his right,looking towards the train,and standing
more upright? Hard to tell,because of the effects of light and shadow,but
I would say his shirt looks more plain than plaid.Could he be mistaken for
LHO? Maybe,but you know I like to ID by the face,not the back of a head!
:-) Anyway,I don't know of anybody who thinks LHO , post assassination
,was hanging round the car park.
As for the shirt photo on p186 : yes,it sure does look torn at the right
elbow. Stating the obvious,we cannot see the RIGHT elbow of either man in
the photo on p.68,because only the left elbows are towards the camera.
http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/24220085be.gif
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Os...
By the way,here's something odd : my twenty year-old copy of TKOAP is in
great condition,except for p.186:it matches the shirt,insofar as it is the
ONLY one of all the 223 pages,which is partially torn! Ain't that spooky
?!
Rgds,
Marcus
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