did oswald ask for the aclu after his arrest?

[greg]

Fritz claimed he did. However, when he had the opportunity to request help
in public, he asked for John Abt (to reporters 6:30pm 22nov63) and later
asked for "someboby to come forward" (late night press conference, 22nov63).

Oswald is also alleged to have asked for Abt during his early morning
arraignment of 23nov63, adding that Abt was an ACLU lawyer, and that he
himself was a member of that org. His next alleged mention of the ACLU was
to H Lewis Nichols of the Dallas Bar Assoc. And again he is alleged to have
stated he was an ACLU member.

Oswald told his family he wanted Abt, and made no mention to them of the
ACLU. Oswald phoned Ruth Paine and asked her for assistance in getting Abt.
Again, no mention of the ACLU here.

Nichols visit is a interesting. He was a WWII vet, and still in the Army
Reserves at the time of the assassination. He previously worked as a City
Attorney, and like Ruby was extremely familar with both the building, and
its occupants. The Army Reserves were a recruiting ground for Army Intel.
Nichols had no problem seeing Oswald, immediately afterwards giving an
"impromptu" press conference, confirming that Oswald's legal rights were
being after, and that Oswald had declined his assistance, wanting either Abt
or someone from the ACLU. In 1969, Nichols wrote a piece for Reader's Digest
in which he stated that after Nixon's nomination, he was summoned to a
strategy meeting at the Mayflower Hotel. Nixon had a "special assignment"
for him. It was to head up Operation Integrity which involved heading up a
volunteer army of 100,000 to ensure a fair count in the election. It seems
Nichols and Nixon went waaaay back...

It is also curious that Nichols does not mention the names of all those
lawyers and professors phoning around the country to find out if Oswald had,
or needed, representation which culminated in his calls to Henry Wade and
Glen King.

Maybe they just plain never happned? Maybe it was Wade and King who phoned
him?

The Dallas Bar Association also harbored the legal eagles for every Right
Wing millionaire in Dallas... uncluding those who paid for the Black Border
Ad.

The Dallas ACLU had tried to visit Oswald the night before Nichols went
down, but accepted assurances he was being treated fairly, and rights were
being maintained. One who gave that assurance was Glen King -- who -- the
very next day was inviting Nichols to see Oswald in person.

From Olds' testimony: "...and we told Captain King what we were there for,

and he said, he assured us that Oswald had not made any requests for
counsel."

From Nichols' testimony: "I called Captain King and asked him whether or

not Oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if there was an
attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing him, and
Captain King said that as far as he knew there had been no one representing
him, and as far as he knew, Oswald had not asked for a lawyer. He had not
asked for the right to call a lawyer, and or had not asked that a lawyer be
furnished to him---and Captain King said, "If he does, I am certainly going
to call you and let you know, because we want to be sure if he wants a
lawyer he gets one. We don't want it to be a situation of anybody saying
that we deprived him of the right to have a lawyer." I said, "Well, Glen, if
you know at any time that he asks for a lawyer, or wants a lawyer, or needs
a lawyer, will you tell him that you have talked to me, as president of the
bar association, and that I have offered to get him a lawyer if he wants
one." And Glen said, "Well, I'll just throw it back to you. You come down
and talk to him. I would be glad to have you talk to him."

The real reason the ACLU was fobbed off however, may have been to prevent
them finding out Oswald was being used to smear them.

In summary, if we are to believe Oswald was seeking help from the ACLU, we
have to (1) take the word of Fritz and Nichols and: (2) disregard the fact
that Oswald never mentioned wanting the ACLU to his relatives, Ruth Paine or
the press.

We further have to assume Oswald, so well read, wrongly thought that Abt was
a ACLU lawyer. Such a mistake however, is not hard to imagine being made by
those orchastrating all this; detecting such nuances in the Left was beyond
them.

greg

[john watters]

"greg" <***@octa4.net.au> wrote in message news:<***@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>...

Greg,

If I read you correctly you have doubts over whether LHO attended the
25 October meeting, you believe his ACLU membership application was
forged and planted after the first search post-assassination, you
believe his mail box application iro the ACLU was also forged. You
also point that whilst he is reported to have asked for ACLU
representation post-assassination (according to Fritz, Nichols,and
during his arraignment of 23 November) he did not do so publicly.
Presumably you also believe his 1 November letter to CPUSA about the
ACLU was also forged.

I find the whole ACLU issue intriguing. All the above suggests a
concerted effort to connect LHO with the ACLU. Hoover saw it as
particularly significant - he mentioned it not once but twice in a
conversation with LBJ on 29 November.

The question for me is why ? LHO was already publicly connected to
FPCC (and thereby to Castro's Cuba), to Russia (via his "defection"
and his marriage), to Abt, and "privately" to CPUSA through
correspondence. Why would someone add ACLU to what was already a
potent mix ?

The ACLU connection slightly dilutes the Cuba/USSR connection and
paints LHO as a more general LWer. Was it an extra splash of red paint
to add to LHO's LW credentials or actually an attempt to tone down and
deflect from his more obvious Cuba/USSR connections ?

Greg, you might be able to help me with the timing of all this - at
what stage did LHO's alleged connection with ACLU become public -
before or after his death ? IOW, was it an opportunistic attempt to
damage ACLU by linking them to the dead LHO ? Or could it have been a
hijacking of the original plan to blame the assassination on Cuba/USSR
?

John.

Post by greg
Fritz claimed he did. However, when he had the opportunity to request help
in public, he asked for John Abt (to reporters 6:30pm 22nov63) and later
asked for "someboby to come forward" (late night press conference, 22nov63).
Oswald is also alleged to have asked for Abt during his early morning
arraignment of 23nov63, adding that Abt was an ACLU lawyer, and that he
himself was a member of that org. His next alleged mention of the ACLU was
to H Lewis Nichols of the Dallas Bar Assoc. And again he is alleged to have
stated he was an ACLU member.
Oswald told his family he wanted Abt, and made no mention to them of the
ACLU. Oswald phoned Ruth Paine and asked her for assistance in getting Abt.
Again, no mention of the ACLU here.
Nichols visit is a interesting. He was a WWII vet, and still in the Army
Reserves at the time of the assassination. He previously worked as a City
Attorney, and like Ruby was extremely familar with both the building, and
its occupants. The Army Reserves were a recruiting ground for Army Intel.
Nichols had no problem seeing Oswald, immediately afterwards giving an
"impromptu" press conference, confirming that Oswald's legal rights were
being after, and that Oswald had declined his assistance, wanting either Abt
or someone from the ACLU. In 1969, Nichols wrote a piece for Reader's Digest
in which he stated that after Nixon's nomination, he was summoned to a
strategy meeting at the Mayflower Hotel. Nixon had a "special assignment"
for him. It was to head up Operation Integrity which involved heading up a
volunteer army of 100,000 to ensure a fair count in the election. It seems
Nichols and Nixon went waaaay back...
It is also curious that Nichols does not mention the names of all those
lawyers and professors phoning around the country to find out if Oswald had,
or needed, representation which culminated in his calls to Henry Wade and
Glen King.
Maybe they just plain never happned? Maybe it was Wade and King who phoned
him?
The Dallas Bar Association also harbored the legal eagles for every Right
Wing millionaire in Dallas... uncluding those who paid for the Black Border
Ad.
The Dallas ACLU had tried to visit Oswald the night before Nichols went
down, but accepted assurances he was being treated fairly, and rights were
being maintained. One who gave that assurance was Glen King -- who -- the
very next day was inviting Nichols to see Oswald in person.

From Olds' testimony: "...and we told Captain King what we were there for,

and he said, he assured us that Oswald had not made any requests for
counsel."

From Nichols' testimony: "I called Captain King and asked him whether or

not Oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if there was an
attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing him, and
Captain King said that as far as he knew there had been no one representing
him, and as far as he knew, Oswald had not asked for a lawyer. He had not
asked for the right to call a lawyer, and or had not asked that a lawyer be
furnished to him---and Captain King said, "If he does, I am certainly going
to call you and let you know, because we want to be sure if he wants a
lawyer he gets one. We don't want it to be a situation of anybody saying
that we deprived him of the right to have a lawyer." I said, "Well, Glen, if
you know at any time that he asks for a lawyer, or wants a lawyer, or needs
a lawyer, will you tell him that you have talked to me, as president of the
bar association, and that I have offered to get him a lawyer if he wants
one." And Glen said, "Well, I'll just throw it back to you. You come down
and talk to him. I would be glad to have you talk to him."
The real reason the ACLU was fobbed off however, may have been to prevent
them finding out Oswald was being used to smear them.
In summary, if we are to believe Oswald was seeking help from the ACLU, we
have to (1) take the word of Fritz and Nichols and: (2) disregard the fact
that Oswald never mentioned wanting the ACLU to his relatives, Ruth Paine or
the press.
We further have to assume Oswald, so well read, wrongly thought that Abt was
a ACLU lawyer. Such a mistake however, is not hard to imagine being made by
those orchastrating all this; detecting such nuances in the Left was beyond
them.
greg

[Robert Harris]

Oswald was very tightly allied with the FBI, for the obvious purpose
of damning their worst enemies by linking himself and his commie
credentials to them.

His contrived link to the FPCC destoyed the organization, which
permanently closed by the end of 1963.

And he gave away his motives when he falsely claimed to be authorized
to receive mail for the ACLU, creating a handy connection which the
FBI could later "discover".





Robert Harris

Post by john watters
Greg,
If I read you correctly you have doubts over whether LHO attended the
25 October meeting, you believe his ACLU membership application was
forged and planted after the first search post-assassination, you
believe his mail box application iro the ACLU was also forged. You
also point that whilst he is reported to have asked for ACLU
representation post-assassination (according to Fritz, Nichols,and
during his arraignment of 23 November) he did not do so publicly.
Presumably you also believe his 1 November letter to CPUSA about the
ACLU was also forged.
I find the whole ACLU issue intriguing. All the above suggests a
concerted effort to connect LHO with the ACLU. Hoover saw it as
particularly significant - he mentioned it not once but twice in a
conversation with LBJ on 29 November.
The question for me is why ? LHO was already publicly connected to
FPCC (and thereby to Castro's Cuba), to Russia (via his "defection"
and his marriage), to Abt, and "privately" to CPUSA through
correspondence. Why would someone add ACLU to what was already a
potent mix ?
The ACLU connection slightly dilutes the Cuba/USSR connection and
paints LHO as a more general LWer. Was it an extra splash of red paint
to add to LHO's LW credentials or actually an attempt to tone down and
deflect from his more obvious Cuba/USSR connections ?
Greg, you might be able to help me with the timing of all this - at
what stage did LHO's alleged connection with ACLU become public -
before or after his death ? IOW, was it an opportunistic attempt to
damage ACLU by linking them to the dead LHO ? Or could it have been a
hijacking of the original plan to blame the assassination on Cuba/USSR
?
John.

Post by greg
Fritz claimed he did. However, when he had the opportunity to request help
in public, he asked for John Abt (to reporters 6:30pm 22nov63) and later
asked for "someboby to come forward" (late night press conference, 22nov63).
Oswald is also alleged to have asked for Abt during his early morning
arraignment of 23nov63, adding that Abt was an ACLU lawyer, and that he
himself was a member of that org. His next alleged mention of the ACLU was
to H Lewis Nichols of the Dallas Bar Assoc. And again he is alleged to have
stated he was an ACLU member.
Oswald told his family he wanted Abt, and made no mention to them of the
ACLU. Oswald phoned Ruth Paine and asked her for assistance in getting Abt.
Again, no mention of the ACLU here.
Nichols visit is a interesting. He was a WWII vet, and still in the Army
Reserves at the time of the assassination. He previously worked as a City
Attorney, and like Ruby was extremely familar with both the building, and
its occupants. The Army Reserves were a recruiting ground for Army Intel.
Nichols had no problem seeing Oswald, immediately afterwards giving an
"impromptu" press conference, confirming that Oswald's legal rights were
being after, and that Oswald had declined his assistance, wanting either Abt
or someone from the ACLU. In 1969, Nichols wrote a piece for Reader's Digest
in which he stated that after Nixon's nomination, he was summoned to a
strategy meeting at the Mayflower Hotel. Nixon had a "special assignment"
for him. It was to head up Operation Integrity which involved heading up a
volunteer army of 100,000 to ensure a fair count in the election. It seems
Nichols and Nixon went waaaay back...
It is also curious that Nichols does not mention the names of all those
lawyers and professors phoning around the country to find out if Oswald had,
or needed, representation which culminated in his calls to Henry Wade and
Glen King.
Maybe they just plain never happned? Maybe it was Wade and King who phoned
him?
The Dallas Bar Association also harbored the legal eagles for every Right
Wing millionaire in Dallas... uncluding those who paid for the Black Border
Ad.
The Dallas ACLU had tried to visit Oswald the night before Nichols went
down, but accepted assurances he was being treated fairly, and rights were
being maintained. One who gave that assurance was Glen King -- who -- the
very next day was inviting Nichols to see Oswald in person.

From Olds' testimony: "...and we told Captain King what we were there for,

and he said, he assured us that Oswald had not made any requests for
counsel."

From Nichols' testimony: "I called Captain King and asked him whether or

not Oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if there was an
attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing him, and
Captain King said that as far as he knew there had been no one representing
him, and as far as he knew, Oswald had not asked for a lawyer. He had not
asked for the right to call a lawyer, and or had not asked that a lawyer be
furnished to him---and Captain King said, "If he does, I am certainly going
to call you and let you know, because we want to be sure if he wants a
lawyer he gets one. We don't want it to be a situation of anybody saying
that we deprived him of the right to have a lawyer." I said, "Well, Glen, if
you know at any time that he asks for a lawyer, or wants a lawyer, or needs
a lawyer, will you tell him that you have talked to me, as president of the
bar association, and that I have offered to get him a lawyer if he wants
one." And Glen said, "Well, I'll just throw it back to you. You come down
and talk to him. I would be glad to have you talk to him."
The real reason the ACLU was fobbed off however, may have been to prevent
them finding out Oswald was being used to smear them.
In summary, if we are to believe Oswald was seeking help from the ACLU, we
have to (1) take the word of Fritz and Nichols and: (2) disregard the fact
that Oswald never mentioned wanting the ACLU to his relatives, Ruth Paine or
the press.
We further have to assume Oswald, so well read, wrongly thought that Abt was
a ACLU lawyer. Such a mistake however, is not hard to imagine being made by
those orchastrating all this; detecting such nuances in the Left was beyond
them.
greg