Discussion:
HELMS
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BOZ
2018-05-12 03:03:38 UTC
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MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-14 00:10:00 UTC
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Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
Bill Clarke
2018-05-15 01:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
And Bobby ran the assassination bureau at the White House.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-17 02:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
And Bobby ran the assassination bureau at the White House.
False. Mongoose was not an assassination program. When Bobby read about
the assassination plots he told his brother and JFK told him to find out
who was behind it and tell them to knock if off.
Bill Clarke
2018-05-18 00:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
And Bobby ran the assassination bureau at the White House.
False. Mongoose was not an assassination program.
I didn't say it was. But as deep in the water as Bobby was in the dirty
tricks for Cuba operation it is hard to imagine him not being aware of the
assassination plots. Your liberal mileage might differ.


When Bobby read about
Post by Anthony Marsh
the assassination plots he told his brother and JFK told him to find out
who was behind it and tell them to knock if off.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-19 01:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
And Bobby ran the assassination bureau at the White House.
False. Mongoose was not an assassination program.
I didn't say it was. But as deep in the water as Bobby was in the dirty
tricks for Cuba operation it is hard to imagine him not being aware of the
assassination plots. Your liberal mileage might differ.
We know that Bobby was not part of the assassination planning because it
had started under Eisenwower and Bobby only learned about it by reeading
it in the newspaper.
Helms ran the assassination bureau on his own authority. He admitted
that in his testimony.
WasBobby aware of MK/ULTRA?
Post by Bill Clarke
When Bobby read about
Post by Anthony Marsh
the assassination plots he told his brother and JFK told him to find out
who was behind it and tell them to knock if off.
Bill Clarke
2018-05-20 01:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
And Bobby ran the assassination bureau at the White House.
False. Mongoose was not an assassination program.
I didn't say it was. But as deep in the water as Bobby was in the dirty
tricks for Cuba operation it is hard to imagine him not being aware of the
assassination plots. Your liberal mileage might differ.
We know that Bobby was not part of the assassination planning because it
had started under Eisenwower and Bobby only learned about it by reeading
it in the newspaper.
How incompetent.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Helms ran the assassination bureau on his own authority. He admitted
that in his testimony.
You got a reference for that one? No, you never do. I remember reading
that Helms said,"you won't find it on paper" but he was sure JFK knew what
they were doing. Do you savvy "plausible denial?
Post by Anthony Marsh
WasBobby aware of MK/ULTRA?
Was MK/ULTRA in Cuba?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
When Bobby read about
Post by Anthony Marsh
the assassination plots he told his brother and JFK told him to find out
who was behind it and tell them to knock if off.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-21 14:59:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
And Bobby ran the assassination bureau at the White House.
False. Mongoose was not an assassination program.
I didn't say it was. But as deep in the water as Bobby was in the dirty
tricks for Cuba operation it is hard to imagine him not being aware of the
assassination plots. Your liberal mileage might differ.
We know that Bobby was not part of the assassination planning because it
had started under Eisenwower and Bobby only learned about it by reeading
it in the newspaper.
How incompetent.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Helms ran the assassination bureau on his own authority. He admitted
that in his testimony.
You got a reference for that one? No, you never do. I remember reading
Of course I do. I've posted it many times, but you refused to read it.
Church Committee.


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THE CASTRO PLOT THICKENS--AGAIN
By Evan Thomas June 28, 1998

On its face, the document looks like a smoking gun. It is a two-page
"memorandum of conversation" between President Gerald R. Ford and
Secretary of State Henry A. Kissinger, as recorded by Brent Scowcroft,
then deputy national security adviser. The date is Jan. 4, 1975, and
Kissinger is telling the president about a possible scandal that threatens
to wreck the CIA. Press reports have begun to appear about CIA "dirty
tricks," and Congress is getting ready to launch an investigation.
Kissinger has apparently spoken with former CIA director Richard Helms,
and Helms has warned Kissinger that the stories of CIA misconduct "are
just the tip of the iceberg." If more information comes out, "blood will
flow," says Kissinger, who appears to be paraphrasing Helms. "For
example," the memo quotes Kissinger as saying, "Robert Kennedy personally
managed the operation on the assassination of Castro."

This memo has been classified until now. It will be made public later this
week by the Assassination Records Review Board, set up by Congress in 1994
to identify and release any new government documents that might have some
bearing on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Serious
scholars as well as conspiracy theorists have long looked for links
between the CIA's plots to kill Cuban leader Fidel Castro and JFK's death
in November 1963. Did Castro kill Kennedy because Kennedy tried to kill
Castro? Did the mob somehow play a role? The lack of solid evidence has
spawned all manner of speculation and has made historians eager for more
primary source material. The Review Board will release hundreds of
thousands of documents before it goes out of business this September, but
this particular document is sure to attract attention. Whether it merits
such attention is another question.

The memo will be seized upon by some as important evidence in the
long-running debate over the Kennedys' role in the CIA's plots against
Castro. Many historians believe that President Kennedy and his brother,
Attorney General Robert Kennedy, signaled the CIA to try to assassinate
Castro in the early 1960s. The proof for this theory has been largely
circumstantial: The Kennedy brothers made no secret of their determination
to "get rid" of Castro, especially after the humiliating failure of the
Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961. No one disputes that the president
instructed his brother to oversee covert operations against Castro,
code-named "Mongoose." Therefore, according to this line of reasoning, the
Kennedys must have ordered the CIA to kill Castro, even if those orders
were never written down. Such a command would never be explicit, this
argument goes, but would be communicated indirectly to preserve the
Kennedys' "plausible deniability."

Not so, insist Kennedy loyalists, led by historian Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
There is no public evidence to prove that the Kennedys authorized any of
the eight known CIA plots against Castro, which began at the end of the
Eisenhower administration in 1960 and did not finally fizzle out until
about 1965. "No one who knew John and Robert Kennedy well believed they
would conceivably countenance a program of assassination," Schlesinger
wrote in "Robert Kennedy and His Times." RFK, in particular, he argues,
was too good a Catholic.

Does this new document resolve the debate? It is the first officially
recorded statement by a senior government official to suggest that Robert
Kennedy ran the CIA's assassination plot against Castro. That does not
mean, however, that Robert Kennedy did (as the notes say) "personally
manage" the CIA's assassination program, or that he was even aware of the
operation until it had been up and running for many months. As always in
dealing with an official "memorandum of conversation," it is important to
consider the context of the times, the knowledge and motivations of the
government officials who were doing the talking and the quality of the
note-taking.

The meeting between Ford and Kissinger lasted 2 hours and 40 minutes, yet
Scowcroft's notes in the "memorandum of conversation" fill less than two
typed pages. One wonders what was left out, and why. Kissinger's quoted
words are ambiguous. It's not clear whether he believes the story that he
is passing along from Helms or, for that matter, whether Helms is truly
alleging that Robert Kennedy ran the assassination program or just that
the press is cooking up a story about Kennedy's involvement. (Whether
Scowcroft, who now runs a consulting business, has a more extensive
recollection of the conversation is not clear; he was traveling and did
not return my calls for comment.)

Today, both Kissinger and Helms continue to say as little as possible.
Shown the "memorandum of conversation," Kissinger would say nothing for
the record. He told the government researchers who discovered the document
in the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library that he has no recollection of
it. Helms, too, says that he has no recollection of talking to Kissinger
about assassination plots or any other CIA "dirty trick." (Helms, who was
the CIA's chief of the directorate of operations in 1962-63 and thus
ultimately responsible for the assassination program, was ambassador to
Iran when Kissinger was briefing President Ford in January 1975.) Helms
says he wants to stick with his sworn testimony to the Church committee,
the Senate select committee headed by then-Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho)
that investigated CIA abuses in the mid-1970s. Beyond that, Helms said he
has no comment.
____________________________________________________________ Helms
testified to the Church committee that he had never discussed the plot to
kill Castro with either John or Robert Kennedy. His testimony strongly
hinted, however, that he was being a good soldier, taking the fall for his
commander in chief. Assassination, he seemed to be saying, is a subject
that spy masters just don't discuss with their president. He never
doubted, however, that the Kennedys wanted Castro killed. Robert Kennedy,
Helms testified, "would not have been unhappy if he {Castro} had
disappeared off the scene by whatever means. . . . I was just doing my
best to do what I thought I was supposed to do." Part of his job was to
remain silent.

Then why had Helms told Henry Kissinger, as the memo seems to indicate,
that Robert Kennedy had managed the assassination operation? John Nolan, a
former aide to Robert Kennedy, suggests that Helms was telling a
Republican secretary of state (Kissinger) what he thought Kissinger wanted
to hear--that the Kennedys were to blame for the scandal about to engulf
the CIA. "Helms was a very wily bureaucrat," says Nolan, echoing a
judgment widely shared in Washington. "I would regard his statement as a
self-exculpatory attempt to avoid all responsibility for whatever the
agency did. I had a lot of conversations with Bob Kennedy about Fidel
Castro and there was never a suggestion, not a scintilla, that would give
credence to Helm's self-serving statement."

The CIA did formally brief Bobby Kennedy in May 1962 about its earlier
scheme to hire the Mafia to kill Castro. But that was 18 months after the
plot was first hatched in the waning days of the Eisenhower
administration. (There is no evidence that Eisenhower ordered the plot or
knew about it.) According to the testimony of Lawrence Houston, the CIA
general counsel who did the briefing, Robert Kennedy grew angry as he
listened to Houston's account. With heavy sarcasm, Kennedy told the CIA
officials, "I trust that if you ever try to do business with organized
crime again--with gangsters--you will let the attorney general know." Some
years later, when Kennedy read a newspaper column accusing him of trying
to plan Castro's assassination, he told his aides, "I didn't start it. I
stopped it. . . . I found out that some people were going to try an
attempt on Castro's life and I turned it off."

And yet, there is another document that casts doubt on whether Kennedy
really was surprised by the CIA's briefing in May 1962. In May 1961, a
full year earlier, Kennedy was informed by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover
that the CIA had hired Mafia don Sam Giancana for intelligence work in
Cuba. Hoover did not say anything about assassinations, but he quoted a
CIA official as saying that Giancana's job was "dirty business." At the
time, Kennedy was just beginning his own crusade against the Mafia,
including Giancana, as well as worrying about how to get even with Castro
for the Bay of Pigs fiasco. It is hard to believe that Kennedy, who did
not hesitate to ask tough questions of his subordinates, would fail to
make a real effort to find out what the CIA was up to with Giancana.
Indeed, Kennedy wrote on the margin of the memo from Hoover, "Courtney
{Courtney Evans, Hoover's liaison to Kennedy}, I hope this will be
followed up vigorously." Are we to believe that Kennedy waited a full year
to learn the truth?

In fact, the CIA's assassination operations against Castro did not end in
May 1962 after Kennedy was briefed. They continued--albeit
fruitlessly--for at least another three years. We will probably never know
the full and true extent of Kennedy's involvement in these plots, if
indeed there was any. But we may get a better idea in the next couple of
years. The John F. Kennedy Library is working with the various federal
agencies to declassify and release Kennedy's personal files on Cuba and
the Mafia.

These documents may not tell all; they may even mislead. We must read them
together, and not focus too hard on snatches of conversations in
individual documents. But read carefully, against the backdrop of what we
already know, they can bring us closer to the truth. Evan Thomas, an
assistant managing editor at Newsweek, is writing a biography of Robert
Kennedy.
Post by Bill Clarke
that Helms said,"you won't find it on paper" but he was sure JFK knew what
they were doing. Do you savvy "plausible denial?
Post by Anthony Marsh
WasBobby aware of MK/ULTRA?
Was MK/ULTRA in Cuba?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
When Bobby read about
Post by Anthony Marsh
the assassination plots he told his brother and JFK told him to find out
who was behind it and tell them to knock if off.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-05-19 01:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
And Bobby ran the assassination bureau at the White House.
False. Mongoose was not an assassination program.
I didn't say it was. But as deep in the water as Bobby was in the dirty
tricks for Cuba operation it is hard to imagine him not being aware of the
assassination plots. Your liberal mileage might differ.
When Bobby read about
Post by Anthony Marsh
the assassination plots he told his brother and JFK told him to find out
who was behind it and tell them to knock if off.
Bill: You might find this Holland piece interesting. It's titled, "Why RFK
Shunned the Inquiry into His Brother’s Assassination". It's not a
powerful argument - I think space limitations probably limited how much he
could say; but it's pretty interesting.

http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2007/03/for_the_federal.html

As you know, RFK was devastated by JFK's murder and there are accounts
that he was haunted by the possibility that the anti-Cuban operations had
"blown back" and led to JFK's death.

Why would he think that if he wasn't aware of the assassination plots
against Castro?
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-20 00:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Bill Clarke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
And Bobby ran the assassination bureau at the White House.
False. Mongoose was not an assassination program.
I didn't say it was. But as deep in the water as Bobby was in the dirty
tricks for Cuba operation it is hard to imagine him not being aware of the
assassination plots. Your liberal mileage might differ.
When Bobby read about
Post by Anthony Marsh
the assassination plots he told his brother and JFK told him to find out
who was behind it and tell them to knock if off.
Bill: You might find this Holland piece interesting. It's titled, "Why RFK
Shunned the Inquiry into His Brother’s Assassination". It's not a
powerful argument - I think space limitations probably limited how much he
could say; but it's pretty interesting.
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2007/03/for_the_federal.html
As you know, RFK was devastated by JFK's murder and there are accounts
that he was haunted by the possibility that the anti-Cuban operations had
"blown back" and led to JFK's death.
Why would he think that if he wasn't aware of the assassination plots
against Castro?
Because the Kennedys were not the ones who authorized the assassination
attempts on Castro, but the US government was.
Bill Clarke
2018-05-20 01:01:13 UTC
Permalink
In article <7b8aff49-88a9-4048-8048-***@googlegroups.com>, Steve M.
Galbraith says...
Post by BOZ
Post by Bill Clarke
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSIN=
ATION?
Post by Bill Clarke
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau a=
t
Post by Bill Clarke
CIA.
=20
And Bobby ran the assassination bureau at the White House.
=20
=20
False. Mongoose was not an assassination program.=20
=20
I didn't say it was. But as deep in the water as Bobby was in the dirty=
=20
tricks for Cuba operation it is hard to imagine him not being aware of th=
e=20
assassination plots. Your liberal mileage might differ.
=20
=20
When Bobby read about=20
the assassination plots he told his brother and JFK told him to find out=
=20
who was behind it and tell them to knock if off.
Bill: You might find this Holland piece interesting. It's titled, "Why RFK
Shunned the Inquiry into His Brother=E2=80=99s Assassination". It's not a
powerful argument - I think space limitations probably limited how much he
could say; but it's pretty interesting.
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2007/03/for_the_federal.html
As you know, RFK was devastated by JFK's murder and there are accounts
that he was haunted by the possibility that the anti-Cuban operations had
"blown back" and led to JFK's death.
Why would he think that if he wasn't aware of the assassination plots
against Castro?
Thanks for the link. I appreciate it.
BOZ
2018-05-16 01:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
DID HELMS HIRE OSWALD TO WORK AT THE TSBD?
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-17 20:00:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
MARSH ARE YOU SAYING THAT RICHARD HELMS WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION?
Ordered, did not shoot. He was the head of the assassination bureau at
CIA.
DID HELMS HIRE OSWALD TO WORK AT THE TSBD?
No. Did Helms hire Oswald to work at the CIA? No.
Did Helms hire my father to work at the CIA? No.
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