David Von Pein
2007-03-10 12:15:13 UTC
I recently had an interesting e-mail conversation regarding the JFK
assassination with a very kind gentleman with whom I've corresponded
on past occasions as well (and he's a CTer no less).
And some intriguing topics came up as a result of these non-flaming
exchanges. Just thought I'd share some of the comments here. (For
privacy reasons, I'll refer to the person on the other end of my e-
mails as "Mr. X"; if you want to think I'm honoring Donald
Sutherland....that's perfectly okay; I think he's a great
actor.) ;) .......
==============================================
MR. X -- "Compared to today's police lines and CSI methods, the {JFK
crime -scene} scenario is a desperate joke. .... And not a word {of
LHO's interrogations} was actually recorded!"
DVP -- I, too, realize that the police work (the "CSI" type stuff)
that was done by the DPD in '63 was not nearly what we'd encounter in
circa 21st Century. But it was obviously a different world (and police
mindset) in '63.
And I, too, am also shocked (in hindsight) that none of Oswald's 12
hours of interrogation was recorded (or even transcribed in any
verbatim fashion).
But the DPD just did not do that type of detailed recording of
suspects circa '63 -- Will Fritz verified that fact when he said to
the WC that he had asked his superiors for a tape recorder, but they
never had gotten him one.
Therefore, we're left with sketchy notes by different people, who
heard different things at different times from suspect Lee
Oswald...only adding fuel to the conspiracy fire for the CTers of the
world -- i.e., What did Oswald say? When did he say it? Or did he
REALLY say this or that?
And the one thing that really amazes me (in the "CSI" type regard) is
the fact that the police didn't even bother to shut down Elm Street to
regular traffic after the shooting. Cars can be seen travelling right
over the assassination spot on Elm just minutes after the shooting.
Incredible indeed...but, again...a different mindset circa 1963.
Today, the whole Plaza would probably be "yellow taped"...as well as
the limo at Parkland, where photogs were able to get within feet of
the bloody limo just after the event took place, which, IMO, is one of
the reasons why the SS decided to wipe out some of the blood from the
limousine at the hospital (in order to minimize the amount of gore in
the back seat in case a nosy cameraman got too close).
In retrospect, that limo wipe-down looks terrible and possibly
"suspicious" to many people. But, then again, the agent did it while
he had to know he was being FILMED while cleaning up the limo. That's
certainly not indicative of someone wanting to HIDE anything.
==============================================
MR. X -- "Who gave the order to abscond with JFK's body?"
DVP -- In my opinion, many of the potential "pro-conspiracy" points
that you have brought up in your thoughtful e-mails to me can be
countered in a non-conspiratorial fashion with the use of one single
word -- JACKIE.
Because it was Jackie Kennedy who was, unwittingly, actually
responsible for JFK's body being moved to Washington.
Why do I say that? You only need to read the WC testimony of Kennedy
aide Kenny O'Donnell to know why I say that. Let's take a peek:
KENNETH O'DONNELL -- "Her {Jackie's} response to me was she would not
leave her husband's body. At that point, I realized that she would
not. The doctor had continually attempted to get her to take some form
of sedation. And she had consistently refused, and told me she would
not take anything, that she was going to stay with her husband.
"I realized that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter
what anybody did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting
her to leave. And so, therefore, the only alternative I could see was
that we move the President. It is an assumption I probably would have
arrived at anyway, but I arrived at it in this manner.
"So I went out and got hold of Dr. Burkley and General McHugh, and one
of the agents, and Andy Berger, as I recall, and told them to get a
casket, to bring it back, and Dr. Burkley would have the doctors
prepare the body for removal, and that we would proceed to the airport
and go to Washington. This was done very rapidly, as I recollect. It
seems to me it wasn't more than half an hour that they arrived with
the casket.
"I remember just before they arrived I got Dave Powers and said there
was a little room in the back that we ought to just take Mrs. Kennedy
under some subterfuge, and talk to her in the room while we brought
the casket in, because I thought that might be the final blow. And we
did, and--but she knew what was going on. She came out and said, "No,
I want to watch it all'. And she stood in the doorway, and thanked us
for our attempt at being compassionate. And then they took it in, and
put the body in the casket."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/odonnell.htm
~~~~~~
So, as can be seen from O'Donnell's words, it was actually O'Donnell
(based on Jackie's actions) who ultimately decided that JFK's body had
to be moved.
"The only alternative I could see was that we move the President."
O'Donnell did also say -- "It is an assumption I probably would have
arrived at anyway" -- but it was Jackie's refusal to leave JFK's side
that ultimately led to the body-moving decision.
I have a feeling that many conspiracy theorists do not realize how
much input Jacqueline Kennedy had on the post-12:30 events of November
22, 1963.
Jackie decided WHERE the autopsy would be performed -- Bethesda. She
could have chosen Walter Reed (or some other location possibly)...but
the fact that the decision was left to Jackie herself is a strong
indication (in fact, it's pretty much ironclad PROOF, in my opinion)
that no shady goings-on were transpiring re. JFK's body and his
wounds.
I guess David Lifton and the "Body Alterationists" must feel that the
"plotters" had Government-sponsored shills and evil crooks and liars
at the ready at SEVERAL different hospitals in Washington (just in
case JFK would be taken to those non-Bethesda locations).
And that's one thing that makes Lifton's nutty theory all the more
ridiculous, of course. Lifton almost has to make JACKIE a conspirator
in order for his theory to work out right. (In addition to O'Donnell,
Larry O'Brien, Dr. Burkley, and Dave Powers, to boot.)
Similar to O'Donnell's account of the events at Parkland that led to
JFK's body being taken to Washington, there's this testimony from
another top Kennedy aide, Lawrence O'Brien:
MR. O'BRIEN -- "The reference was made that this had to be treated as
just another homicide, and that no special considerations could be
given to the problem. That, of course, increased our concern about
Mrs. Kennedy, who said she would not leave her husband, and that we
could envision Mrs. Kennedy in that state in the hospital for hours or
even longer. So, therefore, it was our determination that the
President should be taken from the hospital."
MR. ADAMS -- "This was the determination of you, Mr. O'Donnell, and
Dr. Burkley?"
MR. O'BRIEN -- "That is right."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/obrien.htm
~~~~~~
Plus -- Jackie and Robert Kennedy were pretty much controlling the
tempo of that autopsy too. They wanted it done fast...in fact, at
first they didn't even want ANY autopsy...but luckily somebody changed
their minds on that.
The autopsy certainly wasn't ideal. Far from it. But it wasn't the
total botch-job that many CTers feel it was. The wounds were duly
noted (save the throat wound, which was a goof by Humes; he should
have phoned Dr. Perry in Dallas WHILE JFK WAS STILL ON THE SLAB, but
he didn't)...and photos and X-rays were taken, per procedure.
Would Dr. Rose in Dallas have performed a better autopsy? No one can
say. But IMO, given the tremendous pressures from Jackie, RFK, and
Burkley...I believe that Humes, et al, did a good job that night. Not
perfect, no. But the autopsy was good enough, certainly, to determine
that NO SHOTS HIT PRESIDENT KENNEDY FROM THE FRONT. Period. And
that's, ultimately, what kills ALL "multi-shooter" conspiracy
theories.
That doesn't kill a smaller two-man "plot", I suppose. I.E., maybe
Oswald had someone urging him on, but LHO was the only gunman. That
type of "unknown" can never be solved 100%.
It's my opinion, though, that that type of smaller plot did not exist
either...because if it had existed -- why was Oswald left hung out to
dry after shooting the President? Where's the #2 man when Oz needed
the bum? He's nowhere to be seen. No getaway car. Nothing. Oswald is
left to take a bus and a cab and his own two feet to get away. That
indicates a SOLO act, IMO.
==============================================
Re. the question of a large "cover-up"......
DVP -- I'd submit that many CTers possibly haven't thought through the
question of how MANY different people and AGENCIES would have to be
involved to pull off the type of plot and cover-up that many CTers
think DID occur in '63.
The cover-up would almost certainly require the participation of THREE
different law-enforcement agencies -- DPD, FBI, and SS. (Plus the
Dallas County Sheriff's Office as well, which could be considered a
separate fourth agency here.)
This is due to the timeline factor of WHEN evidence was collected and
WHERE and BY WHAT AGENCY.
E.G.:
The DPD collected all the TSBD evidence (that all hangs LHO) -- Rifle,
Shells, Prints of LHO's.
The SS was the first official agency to handle other evidence that
hangs Oswald -- Bullet CE399 and the front-seat bullet fragments
(which were then handed over to Robert Frazier of the FBI on the night
of 11/22).
And the FBI took charge of all the evidence at about 11:30 PM on
11/22/63.
So, without all of these agencies working in "LET'S FRAME OSWALD"
unison/tandem, I cannot see how such a cover-up plot could have
succeeded. And the notion that all of these many people, within
different agencies, all had the desire to frame an innocent man (for
TWO murders, no less, including Officer J.D. Tippit's), all the while
allowing the "Real Killers" to escape scot-free, is just absolutely
beyond crazy, in my view. YMMV.
==============================================
MR. X -- "As you click rapidly back-and-forth between {Zapruder Film
frames} 225-235, can you tell me you can really believe that Connally
could have juggled his Stetson with his just-shattered right wrist,
holding it on the edge?"
DVP -- This one is a no-brainer. Mrs. Nellie Connally has confirmed
that her husband NEVER DROPPED HIS HAT during the entire drive to
Parkland Hospital. Many people feel this would be impossible if JBC's
right wrist had been fractured the way it was fractured. Obviously,
those people are simply dead wrong. Let's look:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nellie.txt
Excerpt from the above-linked webpage:
"He had the hat in his hand when I pulled him over and crouched him
down and he was holding that hat up against him. He closed up that
wound that would've killed him before we got to the hospital." --
Nellie Connally; 1998
==============================================
Re. the subject of "Zapruder Film Fakery"......
MR. X -- "If you run Zapruder frames 350-355 back-and-forth
successively in stabilized form, watching Altgens' leg shadows on the
curb area, can you believe what you see? ... Z350, 352, and 354 have
similar angles, and the intervening 351 and 353 have the section on
the curbstone kinking back absurdly."
DVP -- First off, WHY would anyone have any desire at all to alter the
shadows of the people in the film? You surely don't believe in the
crazy notion (postulated by some CTers) that the Z-Film was "wholly
fabricated" (words from Fetzer's crackpot book), do you?
The Altgens shadows don't look particularly skewed or crazy to me. The
zig-zag in the shadows is obviously occurring due to the blurred
motion pan of Mr. Zapruder. (Well, that seems "obvious" to me at any
rate, although, admittedly, I'm no photo expert.)
But I'll still never be able to reconcile the idea that some group of
film-fakers would have a need to play around with the shadows in the
film....and especially around frames 350-355, which was well AFTER
anybody in the limousine had been shot. Makes no sense at all.
People who continually micro-examine the Zapruder Film for strange,
unexplainable "anomalies" (especially within parts of the film that
have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the VICTIMS in the limo) are just
asking to be laughed at, in my personal opinion.
assassination with a very kind gentleman with whom I've corresponded
on past occasions as well (and he's a CTer no less).
And some intriguing topics came up as a result of these non-flaming
exchanges. Just thought I'd share some of the comments here. (For
privacy reasons, I'll refer to the person on the other end of my e-
mails as "Mr. X"; if you want to think I'm honoring Donald
Sutherland....that's perfectly okay; I think he's a great
actor.) ;) .......
==============================================
MR. X -- "Compared to today's police lines and CSI methods, the {JFK
crime -scene} scenario is a desperate joke. .... And not a word {of
LHO's interrogations} was actually recorded!"
DVP -- I, too, realize that the police work (the "CSI" type stuff)
that was done by the DPD in '63 was not nearly what we'd encounter in
circa 21st Century. But it was obviously a different world (and police
mindset) in '63.
And I, too, am also shocked (in hindsight) that none of Oswald's 12
hours of interrogation was recorded (or even transcribed in any
verbatim fashion).
But the DPD just did not do that type of detailed recording of
suspects circa '63 -- Will Fritz verified that fact when he said to
the WC that he had asked his superiors for a tape recorder, but they
never had gotten him one.
Therefore, we're left with sketchy notes by different people, who
heard different things at different times from suspect Lee
Oswald...only adding fuel to the conspiracy fire for the CTers of the
world -- i.e., What did Oswald say? When did he say it? Or did he
REALLY say this or that?
And the one thing that really amazes me (in the "CSI" type regard) is
the fact that the police didn't even bother to shut down Elm Street to
regular traffic after the shooting. Cars can be seen travelling right
over the assassination spot on Elm just minutes after the shooting.
Incredible indeed...but, again...a different mindset circa 1963.
Today, the whole Plaza would probably be "yellow taped"...as well as
the limo at Parkland, where photogs were able to get within feet of
the bloody limo just after the event took place, which, IMO, is one of
the reasons why the SS decided to wipe out some of the blood from the
limousine at the hospital (in order to minimize the amount of gore in
the back seat in case a nosy cameraman got too close).
In retrospect, that limo wipe-down looks terrible and possibly
"suspicious" to many people. But, then again, the agent did it while
he had to know he was being FILMED while cleaning up the limo. That's
certainly not indicative of someone wanting to HIDE anything.
==============================================
MR. X -- "Who gave the order to abscond with JFK's body?"
DVP -- In my opinion, many of the potential "pro-conspiracy" points
that you have brought up in your thoughtful e-mails to me can be
countered in a non-conspiratorial fashion with the use of one single
word -- JACKIE.
Because it was Jackie Kennedy who was, unwittingly, actually
responsible for JFK's body being moved to Washington.
Why do I say that? You only need to read the WC testimony of Kennedy
aide Kenny O'Donnell to know why I say that. Let's take a peek:
KENNETH O'DONNELL -- "Her {Jackie's} response to me was she would not
leave her husband's body. At that point, I realized that she would
not. The doctor had continually attempted to get her to take some form
of sedation. And she had consistently refused, and told me she would
not take anything, that she was going to stay with her husband.
"I realized that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter
what anybody did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting
her to leave. And so, therefore, the only alternative I could see was
that we move the President. It is an assumption I probably would have
arrived at anyway, but I arrived at it in this manner.
"So I went out and got hold of Dr. Burkley and General McHugh, and one
of the agents, and Andy Berger, as I recall, and told them to get a
casket, to bring it back, and Dr. Burkley would have the doctors
prepare the body for removal, and that we would proceed to the airport
and go to Washington. This was done very rapidly, as I recollect. It
seems to me it wasn't more than half an hour that they arrived with
the casket.
"I remember just before they arrived I got Dave Powers and said there
was a little room in the back that we ought to just take Mrs. Kennedy
under some subterfuge, and talk to her in the room while we brought
the casket in, because I thought that might be the final blow. And we
did, and--but she knew what was going on. She came out and said, "No,
I want to watch it all'. And she stood in the doorway, and thanked us
for our attempt at being compassionate. And then they took it in, and
put the body in the casket."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/odonnell.htm
~~~~~~
So, as can be seen from O'Donnell's words, it was actually O'Donnell
(based on Jackie's actions) who ultimately decided that JFK's body had
to be moved.
"The only alternative I could see was that we move the President."
O'Donnell did also say -- "It is an assumption I probably would have
arrived at anyway" -- but it was Jackie's refusal to leave JFK's side
that ultimately led to the body-moving decision.
I have a feeling that many conspiracy theorists do not realize how
much input Jacqueline Kennedy had on the post-12:30 events of November
22, 1963.
Jackie decided WHERE the autopsy would be performed -- Bethesda. She
could have chosen Walter Reed (or some other location possibly)...but
the fact that the decision was left to Jackie herself is a strong
indication (in fact, it's pretty much ironclad PROOF, in my opinion)
that no shady goings-on were transpiring re. JFK's body and his
wounds.
I guess David Lifton and the "Body Alterationists" must feel that the
"plotters" had Government-sponsored shills and evil crooks and liars
at the ready at SEVERAL different hospitals in Washington (just in
case JFK would be taken to those non-Bethesda locations).
And that's one thing that makes Lifton's nutty theory all the more
ridiculous, of course. Lifton almost has to make JACKIE a conspirator
in order for his theory to work out right. (In addition to O'Donnell,
Larry O'Brien, Dr. Burkley, and Dave Powers, to boot.)
Similar to O'Donnell's account of the events at Parkland that led to
JFK's body being taken to Washington, there's this testimony from
another top Kennedy aide, Lawrence O'Brien:
MR. O'BRIEN -- "The reference was made that this had to be treated as
just another homicide, and that no special considerations could be
given to the problem. That, of course, increased our concern about
Mrs. Kennedy, who said she would not leave her husband, and that we
could envision Mrs. Kennedy in that state in the hospital for hours or
even longer. So, therefore, it was our determination that the
President should be taken from the hospital."
MR. ADAMS -- "This was the determination of you, Mr. O'Donnell, and
Dr. Burkley?"
MR. O'BRIEN -- "That is right."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/obrien.htm
~~~~~~
Plus -- Jackie and Robert Kennedy were pretty much controlling the
tempo of that autopsy too. They wanted it done fast...in fact, at
first they didn't even want ANY autopsy...but luckily somebody changed
their minds on that.
The autopsy certainly wasn't ideal. Far from it. But it wasn't the
total botch-job that many CTers feel it was. The wounds were duly
noted (save the throat wound, which was a goof by Humes; he should
have phoned Dr. Perry in Dallas WHILE JFK WAS STILL ON THE SLAB, but
he didn't)...and photos and X-rays were taken, per procedure.
Would Dr. Rose in Dallas have performed a better autopsy? No one can
say. But IMO, given the tremendous pressures from Jackie, RFK, and
Burkley...I believe that Humes, et al, did a good job that night. Not
perfect, no. But the autopsy was good enough, certainly, to determine
that NO SHOTS HIT PRESIDENT KENNEDY FROM THE FRONT. Period. And
that's, ultimately, what kills ALL "multi-shooter" conspiracy
theories.
That doesn't kill a smaller two-man "plot", I suppose. I.E., maybe
Oswald had someone urging him on, but LHO was the only gunman. That
type of "unknown" can never be solved 100%.
It's my opinion, though, that that type of smaller plot did not exist
either...because if it had existed -- why was Oswald left hung out to
dry after shooting the President? Where's the #2 man when Oz needed
the bum? He's nowhere to be seen. No getaway car. Nothing. Oswald is
left to take a bus and a cab and his own two feet to get away. That
indicates a SOLO act, IMO.
==============================================
Re. the question of a large "cover-up"......
DVP -- I'd submit that many CTers possibly haven't thought through the
question of how MANY different people and AGENCIES would have to be
involved to pull off the type of plot and cover-up that many CTers
think DID occur in '63.
The cover-up would almost certainly require the participation of THREE
different law-enforcement agencies -- DPD, FBI, and SS. (Plus the
Dallas County Sheriff's Office as well, which could be considered a
separate fourth agency here.)
This is due to the timeline factor of WHEN evidence was collected and
WHERE and BY WHAT AGENCY.
E.G.:
The DPD collected all the TSBD evidence (that all hangs LHO) -- Rifle,
Shells, Prints of LHO's.
The SS was the first official agency to handle other evidence that
hangs Oswald -- Bullet CE399 and the front-seat bullet fragments
(which were then handed over to Robert Frazier of the FBI on the night
of 11/22).
And the FBI took charge of all the evidence at about 11:30 PM on
11/22/63.
So, without all of these agencies working in "LET'S FRAME OSWALD"
unison/tandem, I cannot see how such a cover-up plot could have
succeeded. And the notion that all of these many people, within
different agencies, all had the desire to frame an innocent man (for
TWO murders, no less, including Officer J.D. Tippit's), all the while
allowing the "Real Killers" to escape scot-free, is just absolutely
beyond crazy, in my view. YMMV.
==============================================
MR. X -- "As you click rapidly back-and-forth between {Zapruder Film
frames} 225-235, can you tell me you can really believe that Connally
could have juggled his Stetson with his just-shattered right wrist,
holding it on the edge?"
DVP -- This one is a no-brainer. Mrs. Nellie Connally has confirmed
that her husband NEVER DROPPED HIS HAT during the entire drive to
Parkland Hospital. Many people feel this would be impossible if JBC's
right wrist had been fractured the way it was fractured. Obviously,
those people are simply dead wrong. Let's look:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nellie.txt
Excerpt from the above-linked webpage:
"He had the hat in his hand when I pulled him over and crouched him
down and he was holding that hat up against him. He closed up that
wound that would've killed him before we got to the hospital." --
Nellie Connally; 1998
==============================================
Re. the subject of "Zapruder Film Fakery"......
MR. X -- "If you run Zapruder frames 350-355 back-and-forth
successively in stabilized form, watching Altgens' leg shadows on the
curb area, can you believe what you see? ... Z350, 352, and 354 have
similar angles, and the intervening 351 and 353 have the section on
the curbstone kinking back absurdly."
DVP -- First off, WHY would anyone have any desire at all to alter the
shadows of the people in the film? You surely don't believe in the
crazy notion (postulated by some CTers) that the Z-Film was "wholly
fabricated" (words from Fetzer's crackpot book), do you?
The Altgens shadows don't look particularly skewed or crazy to me. The
zig-zag in the shadows is obviously occurring due to the blurred
motion pan of Mr. Zapruder. (Well, that seems "obvious" to me at any
rate, although, admittedly, I'm no photo expert.)
But I'll still never be able to reconcile the idea that some group of
film-fakers would have a need to play around with the shadows in the
film....and especially around frames 350-355, which was well AFTER
anybody in the limousine had been shot. Makes no sense at all.
People who continually micro-examine the Zapruder Film for strange,
unexplainable "anomalies" (especially within parts of the film that
have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the VICTIMS in the limo) are just
asking to be laughed at, in my personal opinion.