Discussion:
WHERE DID THE CURTAIN RODS GO?
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BOZ
2019-02-07 04:15:42 UTC
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According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.

After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.

When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.

Where the hell did they go?

His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Allan G. Johnson
2019-02-08 02:48:38 UTC
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Permalink
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
Steve M. Galbraith
2019-02-09 02:45:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
Sure, it's *possible* they were curtain rods IF you isolate the evidence
and look at it separately and independent of other evidence. But the sum
of evidence, the totality of the physical and eyewitness and
circumstantial information, indicates it wasn't curtain rods.

But this - i.e., stripping evidence from the totality, is what they do. A
conspiracy believers says "Person "X" said JFK's brain was missing" or
"Person Y said the fragments he had taken from JFK's brain were larger
than a single bullet" and they just accept that (notice that they'll
believe both?: JFK's brain was missing AND fragments larger than a bullet
were taken from it - but nevermind). How does what is claimed fit with the
other evidence? It doesn't matter to a conspiracy believer (some of them;
the more doctrinaire) since that alone supports their fervent wish to
believe there was a conspiracy.

As we've all said repeatedly: eyewitness accounts are unreliable. That's
true with accounts that show Oswald was the lone assassin and those that
show the murder was done in coordination.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-11 20:10:08 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
Sure, it's *possible* they were curtain rods IF you isolate the evidence
and look at it separately and independent of other evidence. But the sum
of evidence, the totality of the physical and eyewitness and
circumstantial information, indicates it wasn't curtain rods.
But this - i.e., stripping evidence from the totality, is what they do. A
conspiracy believers says "Person "X" said JFK's brain was missing" or
"Person Y said the fragments he had taken from JFK's brain were larger
than a single bullet" and they just accept that (notice that they'll
believe both?: JFK's brain was missing AND fragments larger than a bullet
were taken from it - but nevermind). How does what is claimed fit with the
other evidence? It doesn't matter to a conspiracy believer (some of them;
the more doctrinaire) since that alone supports their fervent wish to
believe there was a conspiracy.
As we've all said repeatedly: eyewitness accounts are unreliable. That's
true with accounts that show Oswald was the lone assassin and those that
show the murder was done in coordination.
Which witnesses said they saw other people shooting?
You don't even have witnesses saying that they saw Oswald shooting.
Is your theory that Euins was correct and that it was a black man shooting?
BOZ
2019-02-12 16:00:43 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
Sure, it's *possible* they were curtain rods IF you isolate the evidence
and look at it separately and independent of other evidence. But the sum
of evidence, the totality of the physical and eyewitness and
circumstantial information, indicates it wasn't curtain rods.
But this - i.e., stripping evidence from the totality, is what they do. A
conspiracy believers says "Person "X" said JFK's brain was missing" or
"Person Y said the fragments he had taken from JFK's brain were larger
than a single bullet" and they just accept that (notice that they'll
believe both?: JFK's brain was missing AND fragments larger than a bullet
were taken from it - but nevermind). How does what is claimed fit with the
other evidence? It doesn't matter to a conspiracy believer (some of them;
the more doctrinaire) since that alone supports their fervent wish to
believe there was a conspiracy.
As we've all said repeatedly: eyewitness accounts are unreliable. That's
true with accounts that show Oswald was the lone assassin and those that
show the murder was done in coordination.
Which witnesses said they saw other people shooting?
You don't even have witnesses saying that they saw Oswald shooting.
Is your theory that Euins was correct and that it was a black man shooting?
Black man shooting? Don't tell me Oswald was in blackface too?
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-13 20:24:58 UTC
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Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
Sure, it's *possible* they were curtain rods IF you isolate the evidence
and look at it separately and independent of other evidence. But the sum
of evidence, the totality of the physical and eyewitness and
circumstantial information, indicates it wasn't curtain rods.
But this - i.e., stripping evidence from the totality, is what they do. A
conspiracy believers says "Person "X" said JFK's brain was missing" or
"Person Y said the fragments he had taken from JFK's brain were larger
than a single bullet" and they just accept that (notice that they'll
believe both?: JFK's brain was missing AND fragments larger than a bullet
were taken from it - but nevermind). How does what is claimed fit with the
other evidence? It doesn't matter to a conspiracy believer (some of them;
the more doctrinaire) since that alone supports their fervent wish to
believe there was a conspiracy.
As we've all said repeatedly: eyewitness accounts are unreliable. That's
true with accounts that show Oswald was the lone assassin and those that
show the murder was done in coordination.
Which witnesses said they saw other people shooting?
You don't even have witnesses saying that they saw Oswald shooting.
Is your theory that Euins was correct and that it was a black man shooting?
Black man shooting? Don't tell me Oswald was in blackface too?
Go ahead. Pretend that you know absolutely nothing about this case.
Make your fellow WC defenders proud.
Steve M. Galbraith
2019-02-10 19:29:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
Just to put a bow on this: Here's another photo of the curtain rods found
during the search of the Paine's home. They were, as has been mentioned
repeatedly, taken from the garage owned by the Paines. Ruth Paine
identified them as belonging to them.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0014b.htm

SS agent John Howlett retrieved them from the garage. JC Day of the Dallas
PD then examined them for prints and said the one legible print found did
not belong to Oswald.

In conspiracy world curtain rods found in the Paine garage - with no
identifiable prints on them belonging to Oswald - equals rods taken by
Oswald to the TSBD. How could rods in the garage be the ones taken from
the garage by Oswald? Never mind, they could be the same. This is how some
of these people think.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-13 20:25:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
Just to put a bow on this: Here's another photo of the curtain rods found
during the search of the Paine's home. They were, as has been mentioned
repeatedly, taken from the garage owned by the Paines. Ruth Paine
identified them as belonging to them.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0014b.htm
SS agent John Howlett retrieved them from the garage. JC Day of the Dallas
PD then examined them for prints and said the one legible print found did
not belong to Oswald.
In conspiracy world curtain rods found in the Paine garage - with no
identifiable prints on them belonging to Oswald - equals rods taken by
Oswald to the TSBD. How could rods in the garage be the ones taken from
the garage by Oswald? Never mind, they could be the same. This is how some
of these people think.
Did they even look for fingerprints. silly?

Mr. LIEBELER - What kind of curtain rods?
Mr. PAINE - These expanding rods that are----
Mr. LIEBELER - And you have no idea where they came from?
Mr. PAINE - Let's see, no, those came down from--I think those were in
the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down
because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking them
down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, I
guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a
question, well, of course, paper could have been--I don't remember any
particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply of
it, wrapping paper.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You
say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the
house.
Mr. PAINE - Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are
junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work
bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on
them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might
be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades
in the bedrooms.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately when did she do that, do you remember?
Mr. PAINE - You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new floor,
also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I thought it
was in the fall, but I can't place when it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - In the fall of 1963?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how long are they?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain
rods themselves are 32 1/2 inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide
together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal.
Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they
are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their----
Mr. PAINE - As I say, those came out of house or she would not have, I
was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that
resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the
window shades to go in place of those curtain rods.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might
have been a package in which those shades came?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't recall any.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about
these curtain rods in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to
Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something to
do with windows in my mind.
Mr. LIEBELER - But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever
mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods?
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, place yourself in the garage on or about November
21, 22, 1963, or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that
you can remember as being in that garage.
Mr. PAINE - Well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass
window panel. That bench is generally covered with boxes, there are
boxes underneath that bench. On the end of the bench is a drill press.
My recollection is confused by the fact I am much more familiar with it
now that I have moved back and I have moved my stuff into that garage,
so it is fuzzy in my memory.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you present on November 22 when the police or the
FBI or any other authorities searched the garage?
Mr. PAINE - No, I wasn't.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-11 20:09:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
InsideSparta
2019-02-12 20:28:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There were no marks on the bag that indicate it held Oswald's supposed
lunch either. So, what does that mean? The bag did contain fibers that
matched those from the blanket in the Paine garage which the MC rifle had
been wrapped in. The bag also had Oswald's fingerprint and palm print.
Oswald lied when he denied taking a long package to work with him that
morning and carrying it into the TSBD. He lied when he said he carried a
sack lunch that day. Why do you think he lied? For the same reason he lied
about owning a rifle in the first place. I don't for a minute believe that
you actually think Oswald brought curtain rods or his lunch to work on
November 22, 1963. It appears you just like to argue for the sake of
arguing.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-13 20:25:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by InsideSparta
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There were no marks on the bag that indicate it held Oswald's supposed
lunch either. So, what does that mean? The bag did contain fibers that
It wasn't cjhecked for food. But they did find bags with chicken bnes in
them. Did they fingerprint those?
Did the fingerprint the soda bottles?
Post by InsideSparta
matched those from the blanket in the Paine garage which the MC rifle had
been wrapped in. The bag also had Oswald's fingerprint and palm print.
Oswald lied when he denied taking a long package to work with him that
He told Frazier he was taking a bag and frazier said it was too short to
hold the rifle.
Post by InsideSparta
morning and carrying it into the TSBD. He lied when he said he carried a
sack lunch that day. Why do you think he lied? For the same reason he lied
He did not say that.
Why do I think others lie about what Oswald said? To frame him?
Post by InsideSparta
about owning a rifle in the first place. I don't for a minute believe that
I think Oswald lied about the rifle because he had shot at General
Walker and they might still link him to that.
Post by InsideSparta
you actually think Oswald brought curtain rods or his lunch to work on
November 22, 1963. It appears you just like to argue for the sake of
arguing.
Blah, blah, blah.
InsideSparta
2019-02-15 01:09:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There were no marks on the bag that indicate it held Oswald's supposed
lunch either. So, what does that mean? The bag did contain fibers that
It wasn't cjhecked for food. But they did find bags with chicken bnes in
them. Did they fingerprint those?
Did the fingerprint the soda bottles?
Can you prove that they didn't fingerprint to lunch sack with the chicken bones or the soda bottle? Or, are you simply ASSuming that they weren't dusted?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
matched those from the blanket in the Paine garage which the MC rifle had
been wrapped in. The bag also had Oswald's fingerprint and palm print.
Oswald lied when he denied taking a long package to work with him that
He told Frazier he was taking a bag and frazier said it was too short to
hold the rifle.
Where's that short bag? The one that was found on the 6th floor had Oswald's prints on it, fibers that matched the blanket in the Paine's garage, and WAS long enough to hold the dismantled rifle. That bag is in the National Archives. Where's your alternate bag?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
morning and carrying it into the TSBD. He lied when he said he carried a
sack lunch that day. Why do you think he lied? For the same reason he lied
He did not say that.
Why do I think others lie about what Oswald said? To frame him?
How'd they get his rifle and sneak it into the TSBD? Did they luck out and
find a guy to frame that happened to work on the motorcade route? Or, did
they manage to place LHO there as an employee before the route and
location for the luncheon had even been decided? Did they also just
blindly luck out that Roy Truly decided to have LHO work at the Elm Street
warehouse instead of filling the other position at the warehouse that was
several blocks away and off the motorcade route? Please provide evidence
as to how your incredible framing of poor LHO was pulled off and kept
secret all the years.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
about owning a rifle in the first place. I don't for a minute believe that
I think Oswald lied about the rifle because he had shot at General
Walker and they might still link him to that.
How convenient that your mysterious conspirators happened to luck out and
frame a guy that had tried to assassinate another public figure a mere
seven months earlier.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
you actually think Oswald brought curtain rods or his lunch to work on
November 22, 1963. It appears you just like to argue for the sake of
arguing.
Blah, blah, blah.
"Blah, blah, blah"? That's apropos, coming from someone that chimes in on
99% of every topic that gets posted.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-25 20:36:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by InsideSparta
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There were no marks on the bag that indicate it held Oswald's supposed
lunch either. So, what does that mean? The bag did contain fibers that
It wasn't cjhecked for food. But they did find bags with chicken bnes in
them. Did they fingerprint those?
Did the fingerprint the soda bottles?
Can you prove that they didn't fingerprint to lunch sack with the chicken bones or the soda bottle? Or, are you simply ASSuming that they weren't dusted?
The burden of proof is on you. I found no indication that they did. Can
you point to them in the WC? Oh, that' right, you've never even read the
WC. Can you Google? No, too hard?
Post by InsideSparta
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
matched those from the blanket in the Paine garage which the MC rifle had
been wrapped in. The bag also had Oswald's fingerprint and palm print.
Oswald lied when he denied taking a long package to work with him that
He told Frazier he was taking a bag and frazier said it was too short to
hold the rifle.
Where's that short bag? The one that was found on the 6th floor had Oswald's prints on it, fibers that matched the blanket in the Paine's garage, and WAS long enough to hold the dismantled rifle. That bag is in the National Archives. Where's your alternate bag?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
morning and carrying it into the TSBD. He lied when he said he carried a
sack lunch that day. Why do you think he lied? For the same reason he lied
He did not say that.
Why do I think others lie about what Oswald said? To frame him?
How'd they get his rifle and sneak it into the TSBD? Did they luck out and
find a guy to frame that happened to work on the motorcade route? Or, did
they manage to place LHO there as an employee before the route and
location for the luncheon had even been decided? Did they also just
blindly luck out that Roy Truly decided to have LHO work at the Elm Street
warehouse instead of filling the other position at the warehouse that was
several blocks away and off the motorcade route? Please provide evidence
as to how your incredible framing of poor LHO was pulled off and kept
secret all the years.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
about owning a rifle in the first place. I don't for a minute believe that
I think Oswald lied about the rifle because he had shot at General
Walker and they might still link him to that.
How convenient that your mysterious conspirators happened to luck out and
frame a guy that had tried to assassinate another public figure a mere
seven months earlier.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
you actually think Oswald brought curtain rods or his lunch to work on
November 22, 1963. It appears you just like to argue for the sake of
arguing.
Blah, blah, blah.
"Blah, blah, blah"? That's apropos, coming from someone that chimes in on
99% of every topic that gets posted.
I have to because you post so much nonsense.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-02-27 00:12:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There were no marks on the bag that indicate it held Oswald's supposed
lunch either. So, what does that mean? The bag did contain fibers that
It wasn't cjhecked for food. But they did find bags with chicken bnes in
them. Did they fingerprint those?
Did the fingerprint the soda bottles?
Can you prove that they didn't fingerprint to lunch sack with the chicken bones or the soda bottle? Or, are you simply ASSuming that they weren't dusted?
The burden of proof is on you. I found no indication that they did. Can
you point to them in the WC? Oh, that' right, you've never even read the
WC. Can you Google? No, too hard?
== QUOTE ==

Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you
notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or
lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle
brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and
bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid
around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor,
November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over
there.
Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with
Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I
checked that.
Mr. McCLOY. They were not on the bottle?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
matched those from the blanket in the Paine garage which the MC rifle had
been wrapped in. The bag also had Oswald's fingerprint and palm print.
Oswald lied when he denied taking a long package to work with him that
He told Frazier he was taking a bag and frazier said it was too short to
hold the rifle.
Where's that short bag? The one that was found on the 6th floor had Oswald's prints on it, fibers that matched the blanket in the Paine's garage, and WAS long enough to hold the dismantled rifle. That bag is in the National Archives. Where's your alternate bag?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
morning and carrying it into the TSBD. He lied when he said he carried a
sack lunch that day. Why do you think he lied? For the same reason he lied
He did not say that.
Why do I think others lie about what Oswald said? To frame him?
How'd they get his rifle and sneak it into the TSBD? Did they luck out and
find a guy to frame that happened to work on the motorcade route? Or, did
they manage to place LHO there as an employee before the route and
location for the luncheon had even been decided? Did they also just
blindly luck out that Roy Truly decided to have LHO work at the Elm Street
warehouse instead of filling the other position at the warehouse that was
several blocks away and off the motorcade route? Please provide evidence
as to how your incredible framing of poor LHO was pulled off and kept
secret all the years.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
about owning a rifle in the first place. I don't for a minute believe that
I think Oswald lied about the rifle because he had shot at General
Walker and they might still link him to that.
How convenient that your mysterious conspirators happened to luck out and
frame a guy that had tried to assassinate another public figure a mere
seven months earlier.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by InsideSparta
you actually think Oswald brought curtain rods or his lunch to work on
November 22, 1963. It appears you just like to argue for the sake of
arguing.
Blah, blah, blah.
"Blah, blah, blah"? That's apropos, coming from someone that chimes in on
99% of every topic that gets posted.
I have to because you post so much nonsense.
c***@gmail.com
2019-02-13 20:28:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Allan G. Johnson
2019-02-19 01:29:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Steve M. Galbraith
2019-02-19 21:04:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?

He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?

He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
Allan G. Johnson
2019-02-21 00:44:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
This all points to a plan that was thrown together with little time to
prepare, not something deviously thought out and preplanned. A solo crime
to be sure. If he was set up to be an unknowing patsy, it didn't work,
his actions indicate he knew what happened. A knowing patsy doesn't wash
either, he didn't take the fall, he denied everything.

The only reasonable possibility is that maybe one or two other people
knew what he was about to do (technically a conspiracy because it involved
other people) but to this day, nothing of that kind has ever been proven
or been shown to be necessary. All his actions were the result of what
one person can carry out when he sets his mind to it.
Steve M. Galbraith
2019-02-22 01:12:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
This all points to a plan that was thrown together with little time to
prepare, not something deviously thought out and preplanned. A solo crime
to be sure. If he was set up to be an unknowing patsy, it didn't work,
his actions indicate he knew what happened. A knowing patsy doesn't wash
either, he didn't take the fall, he denied everything.
The only reasonable possibility is that maybe one or two other people
knew what he was about to do (technically a conspiracy because it involved
other people) but to this day, nothing of that kind has ever been proven
or been shown to be necessary. All his actions were the result of what
one person can carry out when he sets his mind to it.
Well, an alternative explanation could be that he expected help escaping -
a ride, an air flight - so he didn't bother on coming up with an alibi or
destroying evidence since he was going to vanish. Or have help vanishing.
And then he was left hanging.

If I recall it correctly, this was one of the Garrison scenarios: LHO
conspired with Ferrie and Shaw and others and then they abandoned him and
left him to take the hit for the assassination. Of course, Garrison also
believed that Shaw tried to get Oswald an attorney. So he wasn't really
abandoning him. Garrison could argue it was round one day and then square
the next.

The more logical one is he expected to die. Suicide by assassination.
Allan G. Johnson
2019-02-23 01:00:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
This all points to a plan that was thrown together with little time to
prepare, not something deviously thought out and preplanned. A solo crime
to be sure. If he was set up to be an unknowing patsy, it didn't work,
his actions indicate he knew what happened. A knowing patsy doesn't wash
either, he didn't take the fall, he denied everything.
The only reasonable possibility is that maybe one or two other people
knew what he was about to do (technically a conspiracy because it involved
other people) but to this day, nothing of that kind has ever been proven
or been shown to be necessary. All his actions were the result of what
one person can carry out when he sets his mind to it.
Well, an alternative explanation could be that he expected help escaping -
a ride, an air flight - so he didn't bother on coming up with an alibi or
destroying evidence since he was going to vanish. Or have help vanishing.
And then he was left hanging.
If I recall it correctly, this was one of the Garrison scenarios: LHO
conspired with Ferrie and Shaw and others and then they abandoned him and
left him to take the hit for the assassination. Of course, Garrison also
believed that Shaw tried to get Oswald an attorney. So he wasn't really
abandoning him. Garrison could argue it was round one day and then square
the next.
The more logical one is he expected to die. Suicide by assassination.
A abandoned patsy left out to dry. That conspiracy scenario, possible
but also unproven, even after 50+ years. Conspiracy's usually don't
remain quiet for long, the first crack leads to the flood gates opening.
How long did the Jussie Smollett conspiracy stay quiet after the first
hint of fakery, like 5 minutes?
Mark
2019-02-23 20:26:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
This all points to a plan that was thrown together with little time to
prepare, not something deviously thought out and preplanned. A solo crime
to be sure. If he was set up to be an unknowing patsy, it didn't work,
his actions indicate he knew what happened. A knowing patsy doesn't wash
either, he didn't take the fall, he denied everything.
The only reasonable possibility is that maybe one or two other people
knew what he was about to do (technically a conspiracy because it involved
other people) but to this day, nothing of that kind has ever been proven
or been shown to be necessary. All his actions were the result of what
one person can carry out when he sets his mind to it.
Well, an alternative explanation could be that he expected help escaping -
a ride, an air flight - so he didn't bother on coming up with an alibi or
destroying evidence since he was going to vanish. Or have help vanishing.
And then he was left hanging.
If I recall it correctly, this was one of the Garrison scenarios: LHO
conspired with Ferrie and Shaw and others and then they abandoned him and
left him to take the hit for the assassination. Of course, Garrison also
believed that Shaw tried to get Oswald an attorney. So he wasn't really
abandoning him. Garrison could argue it was round one day and then square
the next.
The more logical one is he expected to die. Suicide by assassination.
A abandoned patsy left out to dry. That conspiracy scenario, possible
but also unproven, even after 50+ years. Conspiracy's usually don't
remain quiet for long, the first crack leads to the flood gates opening.
How long did the Jussie Smollett conspiracy stay quiet after the first
hint of fakery, like 5 minutes?
And, apparently, with only three people involved. Mark
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-26 01:43:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
This all points to a plan that was thrown together with little time to
prepare, not something deviously thought out and preplanned. A solo crime
to be sure. If he was set up to be an unknowing patsy, it didn't work,
his actions indicate he knew what happened. A knowing patsy doesn't wash
either, he didn't take the fall, he denied everything.
The only reasonable possibility is that maybe one or two other people
knew what he was about to do (technically a conspiracy because it involved
other people) but to this day, nothing of that kind has ever been proven
or been shown to be necessary. All his actions were the result of what
one person can carry out when he sets his mind to it.
Well, an alternative explanation could be that he expected help escaping -
a ride, an air flight - so he didn't bother on coming up with an alibi or
destroying evidence since he was going to vanish. Or have help vanishing.
And then he was left hanging.
If I recall it correctly, this was one of the Garrison scenarios: LHO
conspired with Ferrie and Shaw and others and then they abandoned him and
left him to take the hit for the assassination. Of course, Garrison also
believed that Shaw tried to get Oswald an attorney. So he wasn't really
abandoning him. Garrison could argue it was round one day and then square
the next.
The more logical one is he expected to die. Suicide by assassination.
A abandoned patsy left out to dry. That conspiracy scenario, possible
but also unproven, even after 50+ years. Conspiracy's usually don't
remain quiet for long, the first crack leads to the flood gates opening.
How long did the Jussie Smollett conspiracy stay quiet after the first
hint of fakery, like 5 minutes?
And, apparently, with only three people involved. Mark
Would YOU chose Oswald to be part of YOUR conspiracy?
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-26 01:42:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
This all points to a plan that was thrown together with little time to
prepare, not something deviously thought out and preplanned. A solo crime
to be sure. If he was set up to be an unknowing patsy, it didn't work,
his actions indicate he knew what happened. A knowing patsy doesn't wash
either, he didn't take the fall, he denied everything.
The only reasonable possibility is that maybe one or two other people
knew what he was about to do (technically a conspiracy because it involved
other people) but to this day, nothing of that kind has ever been proven
or been shown to be necessary. All his actions were the result of what
one person can carry out when he sets his mind to it.
Well, an alternative explanation could be that he expected help escaping -
a ride, an air flight - so he didn't bother on coming up with an alibi or
destroying evidence since he was going to vanish. Or have help vanishing.
And then he was left hanging.
If I recall it correctly, this was one of the Garrison scenarios: LHO
conspired with Ferrie and Shaw and others and then they abandoned him and
left him to take the hit for the assassination. Of course, Garrison also
believed that Shaw tried to get Oswald an attorney. So he wasn't really
abandoning him. Garrison could argue it was round one day and then square
the next.
The more logical one is he expected to die. Suicide by assassination.
A abandoned patsy left out to dry. That conspiracy scenario, possible
but also unproven, even after 50+ years. Conspiracy's usually don't
remain quiet for long, the first crack leads to the flood gates opening.
How long did the Jussie Smollett conspiracy stay quiet after the first
hint of fakery, like 5 minutes?
Well, that one wasn't run by the CIA and covered up by the FBI.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-26 01:42:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
This all points to a plan that was thrown together with little time to
prepare, not something deviously thought out and preplanned. A solo crime
You mean like the CIA's Castro plots?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
to be sure. If he was set up to be an unknowing patsy, it didn't work,
his actions indicate he knew what happened. A knowing patsy doesn't wash
either, he didn't take the fall, he denied everything.
The only reasonable possibility is that maybe one or two other people
knew what he was about to do (technically a conspiracy because it involved
other people) but to this day, nothing of that kind has ever been proven
or been shown to be necessary. All his actions were the result of what
one person can carry out when he sets his mind to it.
Well, an alternative explanation could be that he expected help escaping -
a ride, an air flight - so he didn't bother on coming up with an alibi or
destroying evidence since he was going to vanish. Or have help vanishing.
And then he was left hanging.
If I recall it correctly, this was one of the Garrison scenarios: LHO
conspired with Ferrie and Shaw and others and then they abandoned him and
left him to take the hit for the assassination. Of course, Garrison also
believed that Shaw tried to get Oswald an attorney. So he wasn't really
abandoning him. Garrison could argue it was round one day and then square
the next.
The more logical one is he expected to die. Suicide by assassination.
Then why didn't Baker shoot him? Didn't he get the memo?
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-25 20:37:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
This all points to a plan that was thrown together with little time to
prepare, not something deviously thought out and preplanned. A solo crime
to be sure. If he was set up to be an unknowing patsy, it didn't work,
his actions indicate he knew what happened. A knowing patsy doesn't wash
either, he didn't take the fall, he denied everything.
So, how did he shoot JFK in the forehead?

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Post by Allan G. Johnson
The only reasonable possibility is that maybe one or two other people
knew what he was about to do (technically a conspiracy because it involved
other people) but to this day, nothing of that kind has ever been proven
or been shown to be necessary. All his actions were the result of what
one person can carry out when he sets his mind to it.
Maybe one magician who can shoot from behind and also from the FRONT at
the same time. Can you demonstrate that for us?
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-25 20:37:31 UTC
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Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
Living in your millionaire mansion you know nothing about real life. It's
not about breaking rods. There are different type of rods for different
types of curtains. The ones in his room were flimsy for flimsy curtains.
If he wanted to put in heavy curtains to block out the light he would need
to install heavier curtain rods to hold them. That is exactly what I had
to do when I moved into a rooming house. That's what poor people have to
do, but you millionaires never have to know about real life.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
Yeah, he tried that and almost hot shot by a cop.
Have you ever gotten shot by a cop for doing nothing?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He took a series of actions before, during and after the assassination
that just shout guilt.
Glad you don't work in the legal system. You would hang people without a
trial.
Mark
2019-02-27 00:11:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
Living in your millionaire mansion you know nothing about real life. It's
not about breaking rods. There are different type of rods for different
types of curtains. The ones in his room were flimsy for flimsy curtains.
If he wanted to put in heavy curtains to block out the light he would need
to install heavier curtain rods to hold them. That is exactly what I had
to do when I moved into a rooming house. That's what poor people have to
do, but you millionaires never have to know about real life.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
Yeah, he tried that and almost hot shot by a cop.
Have you ever gotten shot by a cop for doing nothing?
That's just not true. Baker had his revolver in hand because he was
thinking he just might run into an armed suspect. If Truly had not vouched
for Oswald, Baker wasn't going to shoot him. He would have tried to put
LHO in handcuffs and detain him for further questioning.

Mark
Anthony Marsh
2019-03-05 03:13:35 UTC
Reply
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Post by Mark
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Good point. Assuming he was aware of them. Or why didn't he break the rods
in his room to make it look like he needed to replace them?
Living in your millionaire mansion you know nothing about real life. It's
not about breaking rods. There are different type of rods for different
types of curtains. The ones in his room were flimsy for flimsy curtains.
If he wanted to put in heavy curtains to block out the light he would need
to install heavier curtain rods to hold them. That is exactly what I had
to do when I moved into a rooming house. That's what poor people have to
do, but you millionaires never have to know about real life.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He also left photos and negatives of the backyard photos among his
possessions too. Hell, why did he leave the TSBD so quickly after the
shooting and not stay around pretending to find out what happened?
Yeah, he tried that and almost hot shot by a cop.
Have you ever gotten shot by a cop for doing nothing?
That's just not true. Baker had his revolver in hand because he was
thinking he just might run into an armed suspect. If Truly had not vouched
for Oswald, Baker wasn't going to shoot him. He would have tried to put
LHO in handcuffs and detain him for further questioning.
Mark
So you're either a mind reeader or an expert on Dallas cops? Maybe he
ASSuMEd that he got there quickly enough to catch the shooter on the top
floor still armed with the rifle ready to shoot his way out. Would he
automatically shoot the first person he saw in the lunch room eating
lunch?
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-25 20:36:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
Why didn't Oswald include the rods from Ruth Paines house in the bag
with the rifle? He could then plant the rifle in the building during the
day and keep the rods in the bag. He could then have a verifiable alibi
for what was in the bag. Another indication this planned assassination
attempt was not clearly thought out and was not a conspiracy.
Your phony logic is proof of conspiracy. And WHO DUN IT.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-25 20:36:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
There is no way to satisfy a buff. The HOBBY must continue at all costs.
You can't admit ANY fact.
OHLeeRedux
2019-02-14 04:03:20 UTC
Reply
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Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
Anthony, my old friend. Just as factually challenged as always, I see.
Ah. Nothing changes.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-26 01:43:43 UTC
Reply
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Post by OHLeeRedux
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
Where the hell did they go?
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
Maybe, just maybe, the curtain rods didn't exist, it was just a cover
story for what was really in the bag, the rifle. Don't expect CT'ers to
buy that though, it makes too much sense and fits all the other evidence,
something they're genetically incapable of comprehending.
There are no marks on the bag that indicate it held a rifle.
Anthony, my old friend. Just as factually challenged as always, I see.
Ah. Nothing changes.
So, you are admitting my point.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-08 17:11:47 UTC
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Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.

Loading Image...
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
slats
2019-02-09 03:10:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald
decided to leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the
curtain rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtain
Rods-1.jpg
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
One problem: Oswald denied ever bringing curtain rods into work that day,
or any long package for that matter -- directly contradicting Frazier. I
know, I know: DPD lied about this, right?

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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Anthony Marsh
2019-02-11 20:10:36 UTC
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Post by slats
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald
decided to leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the
curtain rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtain
Rods-1.jpg
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
One problem: Oswald denied ever bringing curtain rods into work that day,
or any long package for that matter -- directly contradicting Frazier. I
know, I know: DPD lied about this, right?
Who lied? Frazier? So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an
incompetent Klutz.
Post by slats
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https://www.avg.com
BOZ
2019-02-09 16:08:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
Those are Mrs. Paine's curtain rods.
Allan G. Johnson
2019-02-11 01:06:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
Those are Mrs. Paine's curtain rods.
Typical misdirection and biased interpretation of evidence. It's
actually evidence of CTer's grasping at straws and trying to convince
themselves that ANY real evidence of Oswald's guilt is faked or somehow
not true.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-11 20:10:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
Those are Mrs. Paine's curtain rods.
Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him the death penalty for that.
Micael Paine said he wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the
garage.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-02-09 21:38:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm

== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.

But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.

And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.

Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.

There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.

Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.

Hank
Mark
2019-02-11 00:42:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
A great post. This is a man who can't understand why we don't take his
claim of being great "researcher" seriously. Here's a great example. He
will flat out misrepresent, ignore, or make up evidence. He's become a
sad figure. Mark
Mark
2019-02-11 01:12:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Thank you, Hank.

Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?

The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.

What is your problem? Mark
Steve M. Galbraith
2019-02-12 01:37:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
Mark, he knew where the rods came from. And when. And that, in addition,
none of Oswald's prints were found on them. We had this exchange before.

He doesn't like being called an "Oswald defender" but what else do you
call someone who tries to defend the claim that Oswald brought curtain
rods by using the "curtain rods were found" argument?
Mark
2019-02-13 17:16:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
Mark, he knew where the rods came from. And when. And that, in addition,
none of Oswald's prints were found on them. We had this exchange before.
Wonderful, Steve. I didn't know that, though I'm not surprised. Don't know
if he forgets, or if he just likes to BS. Either way, he's hard to take
seriously. Mark
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He doesn't like being called an "Oswald defender" but what else do you
call someone who tries to defend the claim that Oswald brought curtain
rods by using the "curtain rods were found" argument?
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-13 20:26:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
Mark, he knew where the rods came from. And when. And that, in addition,
none of Oswald's prints were found on them. We had this exchange before.
OK wise guy, then tell me WHOSE fingerprints were found on them. Now YOU
say that none of Oswald's fingerprints were found on those curtain rods.
Can you prove that? Were they even dusted for prints? Whose prints did
they find? If you don't look for something you may not find it? Who moved
all those boxes 4 times to rearrange the sniper's nest? Whose fingerprints
are on all those boxes? Any cops?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He doesn't like being called an "Oswald defender" but what else do you
call someone who tries to defend the claim that Oswald brought curtain
rods by using the "curtain rods were found" argument?
Steve M. Galbraith
2019-02-14 17:16:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
Mark, he knew where the rods came from. And when. And that, in addition,
none of Oswald's prints were found on them. We had this exchange before.
OK wise guy, then tell me WHOSE fingerprints were found on them. Now YOU
say that none of Oswald's fingerprints were found on those curtain rods.
Can you prove that? Were they even dusted for prints? Whose prints did
they find? If you don't look for something you may not find it? Who moved
all those boxes 4 times to rearrange the sniper's nest? Whose fingerprints
are on all those boxes? Any cops?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He doesn't like being called an "Oswald defender" but what else do you
call someone who tries to defend the claim that Oswald brought curtain
rods by using the "curtain rods were found" argument?
The rods *were* checked for prints.

DPD crime scene search form of the curtain rods
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark%3A/67531/metapth337461/

Written on them: "check for prints" and "1 legible print..does not belong
to Oswald."

Fingerprints taken from curtain rods

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49811/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49812/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49813/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49815/

Even if his prints were on the rods (none were found), the rods were found
in the garage AFTER THE ASSASSINATION. They were not found in the
building. If they were in her garage then how could they have been brought
by him to the building?
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-26 01:45:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
Mark, he knew where the rods came from. And when. And that, in addition,
none of Oswald's prints were found on them. We had this exchange before.
OK wise guy, then tell me WHOSE fingerprints were found on them. Now YOU
say that none of Oswald's fingerprints were found on those curtain rods.
Can you prove that? Were they even dusted for prints? Whose prints did
they find? If you don't look for something you may not find it? Who moved
all those boxes 4 times to rearrange the sniper's nest? Whose fingerprints
are on all those boxes? Any cops?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He doesn't like being called an "Oswald defender" but what else do you
call someone who tries to defend the claim that Oswald brought curtain
rods by using the "curtain rods were found" argument?
The rods *were* checked for prints.
DPD crime scene search form of the curtain rods
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark%3A/67531/metapth337461/
Written on them: "check for prints" and "1 legible print..does not belong
to Oswald."
Fingerprints taken from curtain rods
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49811/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49812/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49813/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49815/
Even if his prints were on the rods (none were found), the rods were found
in the garage AFTER THE ASSASSINATION. They were not found in the
building. If they were in her garage then how could they have been brought
by him to the building?
Time. Enough time to take them back and put them in the unlocked garage.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-02-27 00:17:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
Mark, he knew where the rods came from. And when. And that, in addition,
none of Oswald's prints were found on them. We had this exchange before.
OK wise guy, then tell me WHOSE fingerprints were found on them. Now YOU
say that none of Oswald's fingerprints were found on those curtain rods.
Can you prove that? Were they even dusted for prints? Whose prints did
they find? If you don't look for something you may not find it? Who moved
all those boxes 4 times to rearrange the sniper's nest? Whose fingerprints
are on all those boxes? Any cops?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He doesn't like being called an "Oswald defender" but what else do you
call someone who tries to defend the claim that Oswald brought curtain
rods by using the "curtain rods were found" argument?
The rods *were* checked for prints.
DPD crime scene search form of the curtain rods
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark%3A/67531/metapth337461/
Written on them: "check for prints" and "1 legible print..does not belong
to Oswald."
Fingerprints taken from curtain rods
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49811/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49812/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49813/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49815/
Even if his prints were on the rods (none were found), the rods were found
in the garage AFTER THE ASSASSINATION. They were not found in the
building. If they were in her garage then how could they have been brought
by him to the building?
Time. Enough time to take them back and put them in the unlocked garage.
Any evidence of this being done? No.

Any evidence curtain rods were found in the Depository? No.

Any evidence Oswald handled the curtain rods recovered from the garage?
No.

Any evidence the long package recovered on the sixth floor near the
sniper's nest that bore Oswald's print on it ever contained curtain rods?
No.

As I said below, your problem is evident, you have no evidence.

Conjecture? You are selling that at a discount.

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2019-03-05 03:13:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
Mark, he knew where the rods came from. And when. And that, in addition,
none of Oswald's prints were found on them. We had this exchange before.
OK wise guy, then tell me WHOSE fingerprints were found on them. Now YOU
say that none of Oswald's fingerprints were found on those curtain rods.
Can you prove that? Were they even dusted for prints? Whose prints did
they find? If you don't look for something you may not find it? Who moved
all those boxes 4 times to rearrange the sniper's nest? Whose fingerprints
are on all those boxes? Any cops?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
He doesn't like being called an "Oswald defender" but what else do you
call someone who tries to defend the claim that Oswald brought curtain
rods by using the "curtain rods were found" argument?
The rods *were* checked for prints.
DPD crime scene search form of the curtain rods
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark%3A/67531/metapth337461/
Written on them: "check for prints" and "1 legible print..does not belong
to Oswald."
Fingerprints taken from curtain rods
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49811/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49812/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49813/
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49815/
Even if his prints were on the rods (none were found), the rods were found
in the garage AFTER THE ASSASSINATION. They were not found in the
building. If they were in her garage then how could they have been brought
by him to the building?
Time. Enough time to take them back and put them in the unlocked garage.
Any evidence of this being done? No.
Any evidence curtain rods were found in the Depository? No.
Any evidence Oswald handled the curtain rods recovered from the garage?
No.
Any evidence the long package recovered on the sixth floor near the
sniper's nest that bore Oswald's print on it ever contained curtain rods?
No.
As I said below, your problem is evident, you have no evidence.
Conjecture? You are selling that at a discount.
Hank
In this case we don't always have the direct evidence.
Because we were not lucky enough to find it or it was destroyed.
So we have to make du with evidence we have and put the pieces of the
puzzle together. YOU Assume that Oswald brought in a rifle.
You have no direct evidence of that.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-02-12 01:53:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
His problem is evident. He has no evidence.

Hank
Steve M. Galbraith
2019-02-12 20:23:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Mark
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
His problem is evident. He has no evidence.
Hank
Oswald was quite aware of the need to keep as far away from ownership of
that rifle as possible. He had to deny any possibility whatsoever that he
was connected to it.

The Oswald defenders, the conspiracy advocates who believe he was framed,
understand that too. They may look at this event completely different than
we do but they too realize they have to keep that rifle away from Oswald.
He didn't bring it with him to that building, he didn't use it and they
have no idea how it got there. Well, someone put it there. Who? They can't
say; but it wasn't Oswald.

That's there story and they're sticking with it. He did too.
slats
2019-02-13 01:23:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Mark
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to
convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park
were found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
His problem is evident. He has no evidence.
Hank
Oswald was quite aware of the need to keep as far away from ownership
of that rifle as possible. He had to deny any possibility whatsoever
that he was connected to it.
The Oswald defenders, the conspiracy advocates who believe he was
framed, understand that too. They may look at this event completely
different than we do but they too realize they have to keep that rifle
away from Oswald. He didn't bring it with him to that building, he
didn't use it and they have no idea how it got there. Well, someone
put it there. Who? They can't say; but it wasn't Oswald.
That's there story and they're sticking with it. He did too.
If he brought them into work that day, he would have told police where to
find them because that would be his alibi. Instead, he denied bringing ANY
curtain rods to work or ANY long package when interrogated by the DPD. So
Tony thinks the rods exist when Oswald himself said they didn't. You can't
make this stuff up.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-13 20:27:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by slats
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Mark
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park
were found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
His problem is evident. He has no evidence.
Hank
Oswald was quite aware of the need to keep as far away from ownership
of that rifle as possible. He had to deny any possibility whatsoever
that he was connected to it.
The Oswald defenders, the conspiracy advocates who believe he was
framed, understand that too. They may look at this event completely
different than we do but they too realize they have to keep that rifle
away from Oswald. He didn't bring it with him to that building, he
didn't use it and they have no idea how it got there. Well, someone
put it there. Who? They can't say; but it wasn't Oswald.
That's there story and they're sticking with it. He did too.
If he brought them into work that day, he would have told police where to
Silly, You don't know what he told the police. Did he tell them where to
find his jacket or the bottle of Coke? No, they covered that up, because
it could be his alibi.
Post by slats
find them because that would be his alibi. Instead, he denied bringing ANY
curtain rods to work or ANY long package when interrogated by the DPD. So
No, he did not. We don't know exactly what he said.
Post by slats
Tony thinks the rods exist when Oswald himself said they didn't. You can't
make this stuff up.
slats
2019-02-14 17:17:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by slats
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Mark
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park
were found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
His problem is evident. He has no evidence.
Hank
Oswald was quite aware of the need to keep as far away from
ownership of that rifle as possible. He had to deny any possibility
whatsoever that he was connected to it.
The Oswald defenders, the conspiracy advocates who believe he was
framed, understand that too. They may look at this event completely
different than we do but they too realize they have to keep that
rifle away from Oswald. He didn't bring it with him to that
building, he didn't use it and they have no idea how it got there.
Well, someone put it there. Who? They can't say; but it wasn't
Oswald.
That's there story and they're sticking with it. He did too.
If he brought them into work that day, he would have told police where to
Silly, You don't know what he told the police. Did he tell them where
to find his jacket or the bottle of Coke? No, they covered that up,
because it could be his alibi.
So we DON'T know what Oswald said, but you DO know that they covered it
up. Brilliant.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by slats
find them because that would be his alibi. Instead, he denied
bringing ANY curtain rods to work or ANY long package when
interrogated by the DPD. So
No, he did not. We don't know exactly what he said.
You mean besides the witnesses in the room and contemporaneous notes?
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-26 01:51:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by slats
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by slats
On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 8:53:32 PM UTC-5, Hank Sienzant (AKA
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Mark
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park
were found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
His problem is evident. He has no evidence.
Hank
Oswald was quite aware of the need to keep as far away from
ownership of that rifle as possible. He had to deny any possibility
whatsoever that he was connected to it.
The Oswald defenders, the conspiracy advocates who believe he was
framed, understand that too. They may look at this event completely
different than we do but they too realize they have to keep that
rifle away from Oswald. He didn't bring it with him to that
building, he didn't use it and they have no idea how it got there.
Well, someone put it there. Who? They can't say; but it wasn't
Oswald.
That's there story and they're sticking with it. He did too.
If he brought them into work that day, he would have told police where to
Silly, You don't know what he told the police. Did he tell them where
to find his jacket or the bottle of Coke? No, they covered that up,
because it could be his alibi.
So we DON'T know what Oswald said, but you DO know that they covered it
up. Brilliant.
We know that the police always cover up.
Post by slats
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by slats
find them because that would be his alibi. Instead, he denied
bringing ANY curtain rods to work or ANY long package when
interrogated by the DPD. So
No, he did not. We don't know exactly what he said.
You mean besides the witnesses in the room and contemporaneous notes?
The wintesses who were wrong or lying. And people lying about the notes.
And people who misuse words in English. The notes were not taken DURING
the interrogation. They were written days later based on MEMORY.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-13 20:26:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Mark
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
His problem is evident. He has no evidence.
Hank
I'm the only one posting evidence. All you guys know how to post are
insults.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-02-15 01:00:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Mark
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
His problem is evident. He has no evidence.
Hank
I'm the only one posting evidence. All you guys know how to post are
insults.
No, you posted the assertion that Lucien Sarte was the grassy knoll
assassin, but nothing in the way of evidence of that.

You also posted the assertion that Oswald's curtain rods are in the
archives, but the link to the image you posted identifies them as Paine's
curtain rods.

I posted the evidence -- an excerpt from Mrs. Paine's testimony
establishing the curtain rods came from her garage after the
assassination.

In response, you accused me of taking stuff out of context and
misrepresenting things (another two assertions with no evidence), went off
on a whole lot of tangents that I took apart here:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/B4LEwr3APlE/R6X0WHb1GQAJ

We're still waiting for you to establish those are Oswald's curtain rods
in the archives as you claimed. Good thing we're not holding our breath,
huh?

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-13 20:25:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Thank you, Hank.
Marsh, I have to ask again: Can you get anything right about the basic
facts of the assassination? Why do you feel a need to try to convince us
of something that is demonstrably false?
YOU are demonstrably false. YOU ASSuME things without proving them.
Post by Mark
The curtain rods stored in the National Archives at College Park were
found in the Paine garage AFTER the assassination.
What is your problem? Mark
YOU.
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-11 20:11:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD. Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-02-13 20:32:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.

Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.

The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.

So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?

I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."

Is that the argument now?

Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.

You are contradicting yourself big time.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???

Hilarious.

If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.

Focus, Tony.

No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?

We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?

Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???

Hilarious.

If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".

And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.

Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.

Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.

Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.

This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").

If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?

Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-02-19 01:19:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
BUMP FOR TONY MARSH.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
- hide quoted text -
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.

Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.

The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.

So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?

I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."

Is that the argument now?

Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.

You are contradicting yourself big time.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???

Hilarious.

If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.

Focus, Tony.

No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?

We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?

Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???

Hilarious.

If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".

And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.

Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.

Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.

Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.

This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").

If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?

Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Anthony Marsh
2019-02-26 01:52:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.

You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield. And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-03-01 02:17:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.

The jacket existed.

It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.

In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.

The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.

That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.

That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.

At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".

In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."

That's another logical fallacy by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
TSBD was assigned CE163. Here's a picture of it:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm

I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?

No.

You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.

Assumptions are not evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.

Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.

And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.

And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.

Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")

We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.

C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.

To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.

If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.

Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.

It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.

You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.

Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.

Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?

You either have such evidence or you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Mark
2019-03-03 01:28:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
I think you have blown both doors off of Tony's jerry-rigged CT Jalopy.

Mark
Anthony Marsh
2019-03-05 03:14:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
I think you have blown both doors off of Tony's jerry-rigged CT Jalopy.
Mark
Don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back too hard.
InsideSparta
2019-03-04 04:54:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
Game. Set. Match.
Anthony Marsh
2019-03-05 03:14:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-13 03:29:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-14 18:21:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-15 19:55:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.

To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.

I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.

I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.

How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?

NONE.

Hank
BOZ
2019-04-16 01:40:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.
To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.
I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.
I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.
How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?
NONE.
Hank
With people like Tony Marsh it is no wonder that the retarded O J Simpson
jury found Orenthal James not guilty of murder.
Steve M. Galbraith
2019-04-17 01:19:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.
To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.
I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.
I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.
How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?
NONE.
Hank
With people like Tony Marsh it is no wonder that the retarded O J Simpson
jury found Orenthal James not guilty of murder.
Go to any conspiracy site and look up the discussion of the "curtain rods"
issue/question.

Nearly every single conspiracy advocate - no matter how extreme or
moderate, no matter how sensible (some can be more reasonable than others)
- will insist he had curtain rods with him. And most will say they found
rods in the Paine garage and therefore, for some reason, that's evidence
he brought them to work. How are rods found back in a garage in Ft. Worth
evidence they were brought to a building in Dallas?

It's just completely illogical.
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-18 01:55:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by BOZ
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.
To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.
I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.
I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.
How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?
NONE.
Hank
With people like Tony Marsh it is no wonder that the retarded O J Simpson
jury found Orenthal James not guilty of murder.
Go to any conspiracy site and look up the discussion of the "curtain rods"
issue/question.
Nearly every single conspiracy advocate - no matter how extreme or
moderate, no matter how sensible (some can be more reasonable than others)
Not true. You don't get out much and you have not talked to many
conspiracy beleivers. You don't even realize that some conspiracy believer
think that Oswald was guilty.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
- will insist he had curtain rods with him. And most will say they found
rods in the Paine garage and therefore, for some reason, that's evidence
he brought them to work. How are rods found back in a garage in Ft. Worth
evidence they were brought to a building in Dallas?
Michael Paine did not know exactly how many curtain rods were in the
garage.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
It's just completely illogical.
Yes, you are.
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-18 01:53:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BOZ
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.
To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.
I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.
I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.
How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?
NONE.
Hank
With people like Tony Marsh it is no wonder that the retarded O J Simpson
jury found Orenthal James not guilty of murder.
Silly. They knew he was guilty. They were punishing the prosecution for
its mishandling of evidence. Didn't you learn anything. I know Simpson was
guilty that moment I heard about the murders. So did my black teammate.
But I don't think the cops should get away with tampering with evidence.
You do.
BOZ
2019-04-19 06:04:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.
To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.
I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.
I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.
How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?
NONE.
Hank
With people like Tony Marsh it is no wonder that the retarded O J Simpson
jury found Orenthal James not guilty of murder.
Silly. They knew he was guilty. They were punishing the prosecution for
its mishandling of evidence. Didn't you learn anything. I know Simpson was
guilty that moment I heard about the murders. So did my black teammate.
But I don't think the cops should get away with tampering with evidence.
You do.
The cops did not tamper with evidence. Three people left blood at the
murder scene. Nicole Simpson. Ron Goldman. The killer. The cops collected
blood from OJ the next day and compared his blood to the blood found at
the murder scene. Guess who? Did mark Fuhrman plant OJ Simpson's size 12
Bruno Magli shoeprint at the murder scene. I'm getting sick of your
factual impairment. You do not know the case.
Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
2019-04-19 06:10:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.
To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.
I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.
I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.
How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?
NONE.
Hank
With people like Tony Marsh it is no wonder that the retarded O J Simpson
jury found Orenthal James not guilty of murder.
Silly. They knew he was guilty. They were punishing the prosecution for
its mishandling of evidence. Didn't you learn anything. I know Simpson was
guilty that moment I heard about the murders. So did my black teammate.
But I don't think the cops should get away with tampering with evidence.
You do.
And in a not-unexpected development, Tony Marsh, who early accused me of
ignoring his points, ignored entirely my post where I pointed 18 --
eighteen -- points I made that he ignored entirely, and chooses to respond
to a minor point about O.J.Simpson instead.

I'm not surprised.

Hank
Mark
2019-04-22 21:49:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.
To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.
I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.
I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.
How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?
NONE.
Hank
With people like Tony Marsh it is no wonder that the retarded O J Simpson
jury found Orenthal James not guilty of murder.
Silly. They knew he was guilty. They were punishing the prosecution for
its mishandling of evidence. Didn't you learn anything. I know Simpson was
guilty that moment I heard about the murders. So did my black teammate.
But I don't think the cops should get away with tampering with evidence.
You do.
And in a not-unexpected development, Tony Marsh, who early accused me of
ignoring his points, ignored entirely my post where I pointed 18 --
eighteen -- points I made that he ignored entirely, and chooses to respond
to a minor point about O.J.Simpson instead.
I'm not surprised.
Hank
I'm still hearing nothing but crickets from out in the marshlands. Mark
Mark
2019-04-27 01:18:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
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the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
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Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
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Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.
To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.
I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.
I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.
How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?
NONE.
Hank
With people like Tony Marsh it is no wonder that the retarded O J Simpson
jury found Orenthal James not guilty of murder.
Silly. They knew he was guilty. They were punishing the prosecution for
its mishandling of evidence. Didn't you learn anything. I know Simpson was
guilty that moment I heard about the murders. So did my black teammate.
But I don't think the cops should get away with tampering with evidence.
You do.
And in a not-unexpected development, Tony Marsh, who early accused me of
ignoring his points, ignored entirely my post where I pointed 18 --
eighteen -- points I made that he ignored entirely, and chooses to respond
to a minor point about O.J.Simpson instead.
I'm not surprised.
Hank
I'm still hearing nothing but crickets from out in the marshlands. Mark
Marsh's attempted double-dealing with the facts about the curtain rods in
the National Archives could almost be labeled with the F-word. Fraud.
But surely he wouldn't go that far to try to save his crumbling conspiracy
theories . . . Mark
Anthony Marsh
2019-04-28 17:42:57 UTC
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Post by Mark
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER - And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - None whatsoever.
== UNQUOTE ==
I like the way you misrepresent and quote out of context. Micheal Paine
wasn't sure how many curtain rods they had in the garage.
I like the way you level accusations with no evidence in support. Show I
misrepresented anything and show I quoted out of context. You won't,
because I didn't.
Let's get back on track. Whose curtain rods are in the archives? You
claimed it was the ones brought into the building by Oswald when asked
"Where the hell did they [Oswald's curtain rods] go?" You responded with
"In the National Archives". We've established that is incorrect. Wrong.
Not True. False.
The curtain rods in the archives were recovered from the Paine garage, as
I established above.
So now you want to pretend Paine's statement somehow means Oswald brought
curtain rods to the TSBD and Oswald lied about that in custody when he
said Frazier was mistaken and he didn't bring anything that long into the
building that morning?
I see you're arguing that above: "Yes, he stole her curtain rods. Give him
the death penalty for that."
Is that the argument now?
Doesn't matter. Show how THOSE curtain rods brought to the Depository by
Oswald got into the archives as you claimed.
You are contradicting yourself big time.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [1]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
His rifle was found in the TSBD.
So was his jacket, days later.
So was his cardboard clip board.
But unsurprisingly, no curtain rods ever turned up. Because there was none
to be found.
Maybe some turned up but disappeared while in police or FBI custody.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Hilarious.
If they 'disappeared', how'd they wind up in the archives as you claimed?
Where are they? The curtain rods you provided a picture of were recovered
from the Paine garage well after the assassination. Those curtain rods
weren't in police or FBI custody and 'disappeared'.
No response by you to these points.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [2]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
And no curtain rods seen carried by Oswald onto the bus, or into the cab,
or seen in his possession when he entered the rooming house.
I never said that Oswald took curtain rods out of the TSBD.
I never said you did. But that's your problem, not mine.
Focus, Tony.
No curtain rods were reported found in the TSBD. You already said Oswald's
No jacket was reporet found in the TSBD that day. So according to your
logic it never existed.
Straw man argument. I never said that, and it's not my logic. It's your
silly logic, and you're trying to foist it on me.
The jacket existed.
It was recovered after about a week, when TSBD employees realized it was
probably Oswald's and it might be sought as evidence.
In contrast to that, there is no evidence that Oswald had curtain rods in
the long package he was seen in possession of by Frazier and Randle. There
are no curtain rods in the archives that were in Oswald's possession.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [3]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
curtain rods were in the National Archives. How'd they get from the TSBD
to the Archives as you claimed?
Not my problem.
No, it most certainly is your problem. It's your claim the curtain rods in
the archives are the ones Oswald had the morning of the assassination when
seen by Frazier and Randle. You therefore need to support your assertion
with the evidence that indicates that. A flat assertion doesn't establish
anything of that nature.
The fact you try to claim support for this claim doesn't fall on your
shoulders ("not my problem"), when it's your claim, is beyond bizarre.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [4]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
We need a paper trail. Some testimony. A document. Something. You got that?
Not always sometimes the paper tail is incomplete from the DPD and/or FBI.
I'm asking if you have any evidence for your assertion that the curtain
rods you claim were in Oswald's possession the morning of the
assassination wound up in the archives as you claimed. You have yet to
provide any evidence supporting that assertion. You appear to be claiming
you could prove it if there was evidence of it, but the evidence that
proves the existence of the curtain rods doesn't exist at present.
That's what I thought. You have no evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [5]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Of course you don't.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Neither did
he take his jacket. Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them.
MAYBE??? That's the best you can do? MAYBE???
Yes, when so much as been covered up.
You're begging the question. That's a logical fallacy where you imbed in
your argument that which must be proved. You're assuming the evidence
would be available to prove your assertion if it wasn't covered up.
That's not evidence. That's simply the logical fallacy of begging the
question by you.
At this point your argument appears to be "I can't provide the evidence,
but I could if they hadn't covered it up".
In other words, you have no evidence for your assertion, and it's all just
a big fat assumption by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [6]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
You won't even try to explain the dent of the chrome topping. I was the
one who noticed that eh back of the rearview mirror was smashed in. That
explains why the bullet came from behind and destroys all the theories
about a HOLE in the windshield.
Change of subject. We're on to you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [7]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
And you didn't even thank me. All you can
do is attack like a pitbull.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
That's another logical fallacy by you.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [8]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Hilarious.
If nobody noticed them, how'd they get from under the jacket to the
Archives as you previously asserted, Tony?
Some helpful person. How did the jacket get found?
Can you document the 'helpful person' who found curtain rods under the
jacket? Were Oswald's supposed curtain rods he had on the morning of the
22nd assigned a Commission Exhibit number? The jacket recovered from the
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0273a.htm
I can establish the existence of the jacket. Can you establish the
existence of the curtain rods you claim Oswald had in his possession on
the morning of the 22nd?
No.
You can't prove they even existed, let alone that they were found in the
depository or wound up in the national archives. All of this - all of this
- is simply assumed by you.
Assumptions are not evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [9]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your argument goes nowhere. Oswald wasn't seen with any long package after
the assassination, and curtain rods weren't found in the Depository after
My argument does not need Oswald to take curtain rods out of the TSBD.
Then they need to be discovered in the TSBD to get to the archives, where
you claimed they were. Who discovered them there? Where can I find their
testimony? A signed document for these curtain rods? Anything along those
lines?
Silly, that would be like competent police work, not like the DPD.
Begging the question once more. You again appear to be admitting you don't
have any evidence, but now it appears you're claiming you don't have the
evidence due to the incompetence of the DPD. Above you claimed it might
have been covered-up. Above that you claimed it might be missing due to
poor documentation on the part of the FBI or DPD.
Face it, no evidence is still no evidence.
And what you have is a great big pile of no evidence that you keep
pointing to as if it's meaningful. It doesn't matter how big a pile of no
evidence you got. It still is no evidence.
And you got an even bigger pile of excuses for why you have no evidence.
Just to be clear, in case you misunderstood: I'm asking for your evidence
Oswald had curtain rods on the morning of the 22nd that eventually wound
up in the archives, as you claimed. I am not asking for all your varying
excuses for why you can't provide that evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [10]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
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the assassination, because Oswald's rifle was left behind in the
Depository after the assassination as was the long paper bag bearing his
print he used to bring the concealed rifle into the building.
There's never been any curtain rods to recover because Oswald brought a
rifle to the Depository, not any imaginary curtain rods.
The bag that Frazier saw was too short to hold the Carcano.
False assertion ... the correct assertion would be "Frazier's *estimate*
of the length of the bag Frazier said he saw was too short to contain the
Carcano, if Frazier's *estimate* was correct. However, the bag recovered
in the TSBD bearing Oswald's print is long enough to contain the Carcano".
And after calling Frazier an incompetent klutz here: "Who lied? Frazier?
So what? I never said he was the mastermind. Just an incompetent Klutz"
you're now relying on this *estimate* by this supposed *klutz* of the
length of the package he saw to attempt to eliminate the rifle from
Oswald's hand.
Did you run out of straw for your straw man argument? I did not
authorize you to speak for me.
There is no straw man argument. I am simply contrasting your various
claims you've made here and asking you to explain how you reconcile
calling Frazier an incompetent klutz on the one hand and then citing his
estimate of the length of the package Oswald had on the other hand as if
Frazier couldn't make a mistake ("The bag that Frazier saw was too short
to hold the Carcano.")
We're all holding our breath waiting for you to explain why you believe
the man you called an incompetent klutz was infallible in estimating
lengths of packages, particularly the one in Oswald's possession that
morning.
C'mon Tony, surely you can explain this apparent contradiction in your
claims.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [11]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Conspiracy theorists always do that... they start out arguing Frazier's
estimate is gospel and shouldn't be doubted, and then, when confronted
with Frazier's testimony that Oswald said there were curtain rods in the
package -- curtain rods that were never found -- wind up calling Frazier a
liar or mistaken and pretend Oswald had nothing in his hands.
Not I. I wish I were allowed to sink to your level and say that ALL WC
defenders are as stupid and the stupidist one.
Not my fault you can't reconcile your own various claims about the package
and about how good an eyewitness Frazier was. As I said, CTs either accept
Frazier estimate was solid and Oswald had only a 24 to 27 inch package, or
Frazier was an -- how'd you phrase it? - an incompetent klutz and Oswald
had nothing in his hands. They jump from one extreme to the other,
ignoring always the most reasonable conclusion ... that Oswald had a long
package in his possession that actually measured about 36 inches and
Frazier simply estimated it shorter than the actual length.
To CTs - including you - that's heresy. Why accept a reasonable conclusion
when you can flit between two mutually contradictory unreasonable ones?
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [12]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
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Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Anything to avoid the reasonable conclusion that the rifle - the rifle
that Oswald ordered, paid for, had shipped to his PO box and took
possession of, leaving his prints on the weapon and photos of him behind
holding that weapon -- was brought to the Depository by Oswald.
Who else had access to the Depository and access to the Paine garage and
knew Oswald's rifle was stored there? Anyone besides Oswald? By process of
elimination, based on the available evidence, we can determine Oswald was
the only person who could have brought the rifle from the Paine garage to
the Depository.
DeM.
Emilio Santana.
CIA.
Demohrenschilt had access to the Depository and the Paine garage on the
22nd of November, 1963? My understanding he was in Haiti at that time, so
I'm going to challenge you on that claim as well. Please post the support
for your claim. I'd love for you to provide the evidence for any of the
above named having access to the Paine garage and the TSBD but of course,
you don't have any evidence for that, either.
If anything, it will no doubt be more of the "the conspiracy dogs ate my
evidence" that you've argued for thus far, offering up excuses for why you
can't provide the evidence.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [13]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
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Post by Anthony Marsh
Do you even know that there were TWO bags in evidence?
Yes. The second one was manufactured by the FBI from TSBD paper because
the original was stained in the process of developing the fingerprints on
the rifle. You're not going to trip me up by attempting to interject the
logical fallacy of a red herring into the conversation.
This is just a desperate attempt at a change of subject by you. We're
talking about your claim that Oswald's curtain rods are in the archives.
I didn't say he owned them.
Focus, Tony. Neither did I. When I wrote, "your claim that Oswald's
curtain rods are in the archives" I am talking about the curtain rods
supposedly within the long package he was seen with the morning of the
assassination. I am not presuming ownership of curtain rods I don't
believe existed. I am asking you once more to provide the evidence that
there are curtain rods in the national archives that were earlier in the
possession of Oswald within the long package he was seen in possession of
on the morning of 11/22/63.
Either you have such evidence or you don't. It appears you don't.
It's okay. You can admit you don't have any such evidencce.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [14]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Thus far you've offered no evidence of that, and argued above they in fact
were never recovered ("Maybe the curtain rods were under the jacket and no
one noticed them").
So far you've ducked the question of how he carried the package.
One end under his arm pit and the other end cupped by his hand.
Sorry, no. This is just a desperate attempt to change the subject and
shift the burden of proof.
You made a claim. You either can support the claim or you can't. It
appears you can't.
Trying to change the subject to how Oswald carried the package isn't going
to fly here. I don't have to respond to your attempts at changing the
subject.
Where's the evidence to support your claim that Oswald had curtain rods in
the package on the morning of the assassination, and those curtain rods
are in the archives?
You either have such evidence or you don't.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [15]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Try this at home and show us the pictures. I know of only one person in
this newsgroup who could do it and he doesn't own his own Carcano. Maybe
you could loan yours to him. It's called RESEARCH. Don't be scared.
Quoting Anthony Marsh: "Poisoning the Well. When you can't wwin an
argument just make personal attacks on your opponent."
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [16]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
If they were never recovered, how could they be in the archives, Tony?
Your pretenses here are just that. Pretenses. They have no basis in
reality.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [17]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
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Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Your pretense to the contrary is just that. Pretense.
*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY* [18]
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
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Hank
I have many times, while YOU refuse to answer my direct questions.
You think you can bully your way around here.
Projection, Tony. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.
Hank
False Pee-Wee Herman.
Anyone can read this post and see exactly who is refusing to answer the
other's direct questions. It isn't me dodging your points, Tony.
To aid in that regard, I've gone back through the post and insert the
marker "*ARGUMENT DROPPED BY TONY*" after each of my points you failed to
respond to.
I've also numbered each time you failed to respond to my point thus [n],
where 'n' increments by one for each time you failed to respond to my
point.
I count 18 instances of you failing to respond to my points.
How many times above did I fail to respond to your points?
NONE.
Hank
With people like Tony Marsh it is no wonder that the retarded O J Simpson
jury found Orenthal James not guilty of murder.
Silly. They knew he was guilty. They were punishing the prosecution for
its mishandling of evidence. Didn't you learn anything. I know Simpson was
guilty that moment I heard about the murders. So did my black teammate.
But I don't think the cops should get away with tampering with evidence.
You do.
And in a not-unexpected development, Tony Marsh, who early accused me of
ignoring his points, ignored entirely my post where I pointed 18 --
eighteen -- points I made that he ignored entirely, and chooses to respond
to a minor point about O.J.Simpson instead.
I'm not surprised.
Hank
I'm still hearing nothing but crickets from out in the marshlands. Mark
Marsh's attempted double-dealing with the facts about the curtain rods in
the National Archives could almost be labeled with the F-word. Fraud.
But surely he wouldn't go that far to try to save his crumbling conspiracy
theories . . . Mark
FFI, it's still a conspiracy whether Oswald fired a shot or not.
Mark
2019-04-30 20:44:50 UTC
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Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Mark
Post by Mark
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by BOZ
According to Oswald: Oswald entered the TSBD with Carcano curtain rods.
After the grassy knoll shooter (Lucien Sartie) shot JFK Oswald decided to
leave.
When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater he did not have the curtain
rods.
When he was arrested he HAD already gone back to the rooming house and
changed.
Post by BOZ
Where the hell did they go?
In the National Archives.
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/32/Photo_naraevid_PaineCurtainRods-1.jpg
No, that's a false statement. The curtain rods in the archives were
recovered from Ruth Paine's garage during the Warren Commission
investigation phase (look at the name of the .jpg). They weren't the ones
Oswald claimed he took to the Depository. They could never be and never
were the curtain rods Oswald told Frazier he was going to the Paine home
to get on Thursday night, and claimed to be within the package Oswald
brought to work the following day. They were in the Paine garage until
after the assassination. Your claim is false.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/paine_r3.htm
== QUOTE ==
Mr. JENNER - It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I testified that.
Mr. JENNER - That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE - And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. JENNER - You, of course you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; there is.
Mr. JENNER - And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent HOWLETT - About 10 1/2 inches.
Mr. JENNER - Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER - Painted or enameled white?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett-- how many do you have there?
Agent HOWLETT - There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. JENNER - Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. PAINE - This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent HOWLETT - I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER - And you know of