Discussion:
The SBT and the Zapruder film
(too old to reply)
bigdog
2009-04-04 05:20:38 UTC
Permalink
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.

The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.

Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.

For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.

Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
pjfk
2009-04-04 14:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another scenario
on top of that, don't you?
w***@comcast.net
2009-04-05 03:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, bigdog, for a concise summary of the SBT, which was indeed a nifty
piece of deduction. It's ironic that,in the upside down world of
conspiracy, a bit of lucid thought like this becomes another place to hang
wild conjecture.

I remember one particular post that implied that Sen. Specter's entire
career in politics was tainted with the blood of the SBT. He served on the
WC in the early 60's but wasn't elected to the Senate until 1980. So he
supposedly sold his soul to the devil in exchange for a Senate
seat...what...like 17 years later? Geez you'd think that satan would have
a bit more pull. If he was in so deep with the conspiracy, he could have
had himself elected Prez by now.

Sen. Specter's career has been noted by his ability to support viewpoints
that aren't always popular even within his own party. We might not all
agree on all of his positions, but he seems like he has always been a
pretty stand up guy.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-06 04:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@comcast.net
Thanks, bigdog, for a concise summary of the SBT, which was indeed a nifty
piece of deduction. It's ironic that,in the upside down world of
conspiracy, a bit of lucid thought like this becomes another place to hang
wild conjecture.
I remember one particular post that implied that Sen. Specter's entire
career in politics was tainted with the blood of the SBT. He served on the
WC in the early 60's but wasn't elected to the Senate until 1980. So he
supposedly sold his soul to the devil in exchange for a Senate
seat...what...like 17 years later? Geez you'd think that satan would have
a bit more pull. If he was in so deep with the conspiracy, he could have
had himself elected Prez by now.
Yes, that is exactly what those weasels do.
Post by w***@comcast.net
Sen. Specter's career has been noted by his ability to support viewpoints
that aren't always popular even within his own party. We might not all
agree on all of his positions, but he seems like he has always been a
pretty stand up guy.
jblubaugh
2009-04-06 05:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@comcast.net
Thanks, bigdog, for a concise summary of the SBT, which was indeed a nifty
piece of deduction. It's ironic that,in the upside down world of
conspiracy, a bit of lucid thought like this becomes another place to hang
wild conjecture.
I remember one particular post that implied that Sen. Specter's entire
career in politics was tainted with the blood of the SBT. He served on the
WC in the early 60's but wasn't elected to the Senate until 1980. So he
supposedly sold his soul to the devil in exchange for a Senate
seat...what...like 17 years later? Geez you'd think that satan would have
a bit more pull. If he was in so deep with the conspiracy, he could have
had himself elected Prez by now.
Sen. Specter's career has been noted by his ability to support viewpoints
that aren't always popular even within his own party. We might not all
agree on all of his positions, but he seems like he has always been a
pretty stand up guy.
Stand up? Hardly. Specter perpetuated what might be the greatest hoax
that has ever been fed to the American public. The SBT is a fantasy
that was necessary to maintain the myth of a single assassin.

JB
tomnln
2009-04-06 15:33:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@comcast.net
Thanks, bigdog, for a concise summary of the SBT, which was indeed a nifty
piece of deduction. It's ironic that,in the upside down world of
conspiracy, a bit of lucid thought like this becomes another place to hang
wild conjecture.
I remember one particular post that implied that Sen. Specter's entire
career in politics was tainted with the blood of the SBT. He served on the
WC in the early 60's but wasn't elected to the Senate until 1980. So he
supposedly sold his soul to the devil in exchange for a Senate
seat...what...like 17 years later? Geez you'd think that satan would have
a bit more pull. If he was in so deep with the conspiracy, he could have
had himself elected Prez by now.
Sen. Specter's career has been noted by his ability to support viewpoints
that aren't always popular even within his own party. We might not all
agree on all of his positions, but he seems like he has always been a
pretty stand up guy.
Stand up? Hardly. Specter perpetuated what might be the greatest hoax
that has ever been fed to the American public. The SBT is a fantasy
that was necessary to maintain the myth of a single assassin.

JB



The SBT wasd "NOT" discovered on 11/23/63.

It was "Invented" on April 22, 1964.

SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/april_22.htm
jblubaugh
2009-04-07 02:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by jblubaugh
Post by w***@comcast.net
Thanks, bigdog, for a concise summary of the SBT, which was indeed a nifty
piece of deduction. It's ironic that,in the upside down world of
conspiracy, a bit of lucid thought like this becomes another place to hang
wild conjecture.
I remember one particular post that implied that Sen. Specter's entire
career in politics was tainted with the blood of the SBT. He served on the
WC in the early 60's but wasn't elected to the Senate until 1980. So he
supposedly sold his soul to the devil in exchange for a Senate
seat...what...like 17 years later? Geez you'd think that satan would have
a bit more pull. If he was in so deep with the conspiracy, he could have
had himself elected Prez by now.
Sen. Specter's career has been noted by his ability to support viewpoints
that aren't always popular even within his own party. We might not all
agree on all of his positions, but he seems like he has always been a
pretty stand up guy.
Stand up? Hardly. Specter perpetuated what might be the greatest hoax
that has ever been fed to the American public. The SBT is a fantasy
that was necessary to maintain the myth of a single assassin.
JB
The SBT wasd "NOT" discovered on 11/23/63.
It was "Invented" on April 22, 1964.
SEE>>>  http://whokilledjfk.net/april_22.htm- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Did I say something that made you believe that I did not know that?

JB
bigdog
2009-04-05 04:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow.  At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following.  You do realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.

I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC presented it.
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB could have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a second.
There might be reasonable disagreements among LNs about precisely which
frame the bullet struck. This is not surprising since we don't see an
obvious impact in the Z-film that we see for the head shot. This
disagreement is minor in nature and does not in any way reflect a
fundamental difference among LNs. As far as what I am allowed to "glop"
onto what you call "the Posner scenario", who appointed you the rules
maker for this forum?
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-05 18:58:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by pjfk
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC presented it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
Post by bigdog
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB could have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
Post by bigdog
There might be reasonable disagreements among LNs about precisely which
frame the bullet struck. This is not surprising since we don't see an
obvious impact in the Z-film that we see for the head shot. This
disagreement is minor in nature and does not in any way reflect a
fundamental difference among LNs. As far as what I am allowed to "glop"
onto what you call "the Posner scenario", who appointed you the rules
maker for this forum?
So for you close enough is good enough. Then why not stick with the
HSCA's SBT at Z-190?
bigdog
2009-04-06 05:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow.  At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following.  You do realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC presented it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
Post by bigdog
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB could have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
You have made some ridiculous assertions over the few years I have been
frequenting these boards but this might take the cake. To think you can
invalidate the SBT simply because the limitations of the best piece of
evidence, the Z-film, do not allow for pinpointing the exact frame is
about as absurd as it gets. You on the other hand are free to postulate
exploding bullets in the complete absence of evidence of such simply
because it makes for an interesting story. Why don't we all play by the
same rules. Under whatever scenario you believe caused the wounds to JFK
and JBC, tell us exactly which frame JFK was hit in the back. Tell us
EXACTLY which frame you believe JBC was struck at. If you are going to
demand that the SB be pinpointed to an exact frame, than it is incumbent
upon you to do the same to support any alternative theory you are
proposing.
tomnln
2009-04-06 15:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC presented it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
Post by bigdog
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB could have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
You have made some ridiculous assertions over the few years I have been
frequenting these boards but this might take the cake. To think you can
invalidate the SBT simply because the limitations of the best piece of
evidence, the Z-film, do not allow for pinpointing the exact frame is
about as absurd as it gets. You on the other hand are free to postulate
exploding bullets in the complete absence of evidence of such simply
because it makes for an interesting story. Why don't we all play by the
same rules. Under whatever scenario you believe caused the wounds to JFK
and JBC, tell us exactly which frame JFK was hit in the back. Tell us
EXACTLY which frame you believe JBC was struck at. If you are going to
demand that the SB be pinpointed to an exact frame, than it is incumbent
upon you to do the same to support any alternative theory you are
proposing.


After studying the Zapruder Film frame by frame;

JBC said he was hit between frames 231-234 (Volume IV page 145)

Dr. Shaw said JBC was hit at frame 236 (Volume IV page 114)


Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.
bigdog
2009-04-06 20:51:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC presented it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
Post by bigdog
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB could have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
You have made some ridiculous assertions over the few years I have been
frequenting these boards but this might take the cake. To think you can
invalidate the SBT simply because the limitations of the best piece of
evidence, the Z-film, do not allow for pinpointing the exact frame is
about as absurd as it gets. You on the other hand are free to postulate
exploding bullets in the complete absence of evidence of such simply
because it makes for an interesting story. Why don't we all play by the
same rules. Under whatever scenario you believe caused the wounds to JFK
and JBC, tell us exactly which frame JFK was hit in the back. Tell us
EXACTLY which frame you believe JBC was struck at. If you are going to
demand that the SB be pinpointed to an exact frame, than it is incumbent
upon you to do the same to support any alternative theory you are
proposing.
After studying the Zapruder Film frame by frame;
JBC said he was hit between frames 231-234 (Volume IV page 145)
Dr. Shaw said JBC was hit at frame 236 (Volume IV page 114)
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
From what you have posted, it is obvious that at least one of the
people you have cited to make your point has to be wrong. If one can
be wrong, both can be wrong. Both cannot be right.

I don''t suppose you would care to cite how Dr. Shaw determined that
the bullet struck at Z236. Does Dr. Shaw have any particular expertise
as a photographic analyst? Why should his interpretation of what he
sees in the Z-film count more than any other layman? It would be
fascintating to ask Dr. Shaw to what he attributes the bulging of
JBC's coat at Z224 or the sudden arm flip which became apparent at
Z226, especially since you have chosen to ignore these points. I guess
you don't have a page on your website to address these two events.
w***@comcast.net
2009-04-07 02:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by jblubaugh
Specter perpetuated what might be the greatest hoax
that has ever been fed to the American public. The SBT is a fantasy
that was necessary to maintain the myth of a single assassin.
This is what is so great about coming to this page every day! Within the
little vacuum of reality that the conspiracy press has created, the SBT
can become "the greatest hoax that has ever been fed to the American
public." Again, if Specter was the perpetrator and perpetrators of the JFK
assassination control the US, why didn't Specter become the Prez? If he
was so powerful and we are so gullible, he should be President AND Pope by
now.
Post by jblubaugh
It must feel strange to be in such a minority when it comes to believing
in the single bullet theory.
Yeah it's a living hell. Why just the other day I was trying to get seated
at a fancy restaurant and the guy at the front asked if I was pro SBT or
anti SBT. When I said pro SBT he led me to a table at the back near the
kitchen. All the cool, self absorbed, conspiracy wonks always get the best
tables.

"A clue to the real attraction of conspiracy theories, I would suggest,
lies in the rhetoric of theorists themselves, which is filled with
self-congratulatory descriptions of those who accept such theories as
"willing to think," "educated," "independent-minded," and so forth, and
with invective against the "uninformed" and "unthinking" "sheeple" who
"blindly follow authority." Edward Feser

I must be a sheep then. BAAAAAA.

But I have to say that I have found a more deluded crowd than the JFK CT
community to visit every day. If you guys really want to raise your game
and play in the big leagues of self delusion, visit any site related to
The Electric Universe sometime identified as the Thunderbolts. These guys
deny the existence of gravity! They claim that all the forces of the
universe are really just electro-magnetic forces running through the
plasma aether. I bet they were all in Radio club in high school.

So you can see why arguments about the existence of a paper bag in the
sniper's nest pale in comparison to denying gravity. As our generation
from the 50's dies out, you guys are going to have to come up with a whole
new schtick to capture the next generation.
bigdog
2009-04-07 00:19:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomnln
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.- Hide quoted text -
Not that it matters but basic math won't cut it. The bullet did not travel
at a constant velocity. It left the muzzle at approximately 2265 fps, more
than 100 feet per frame. Friction with the air would have slowed the
bullet to around 1800 fps when it hit JFK, which is about 100 feet per
frame. By the time it passed through both men's torsos, estimates are that
it was moving at about 50 feet per frame. After smashing through JBC's
wrist, it has been estimated that the bullet had slowed to a little over
20 feet per frame.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-07 03:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by tomnln
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.- Hide quoted text -
Not that it matters but basic math won't cut it. The bullet did not travel
at a constant velocity. It left the muzzle at approximately 2265 fps, more
than 100 feet per frame. Friction with the air would have slowed the
bullet to around 1800 fps when it hit JFK, which is about 100 feet per
frame. By the time it passed through both men's torsos, estimates are that
it was moving at about 50 feet per frame. After smashing through JBC's
wrist, it has been estimated that the bullet had slowed to a little over
20 feet per frame.
Fun to guess, isn't it? Too difficult for you to look up the actual rate
of lost velocity.

Loading Image...
tomnln
2009-04-07 04:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomnln
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.- Hide quoted text -
Not that it matters but basic math won't cut it. The bullet did not travel
at a constant velocity. It left the muzzle at approximately 2265 fps, more
than 100 feet per frame. Friction with the air would have slowed the
bullet to around 1800 fps when it hit JFK, which is about 100 feet per
frame. By the time it passed through both men's torsos, estimates are that
it was moving at about 50 feet per frame. After smashing through JBC's
wrist, it has been estimated that the bullet had slowed to a little over
20 feet per frame.




Not that it matters but, the velocity after leaving JFK was 1772 fps. From
page 105 of the WCR.

1772 divided by 18.3 fps of film equals 96.83 fps
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-07 21:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by tomnln
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.- Hide quoted text -
Not that it matters but basic math won't cut it. The bullet did not
travel at a constant velocity. It left the muzzle at approximately 2265
fps, more than 100 feet per frame. Friction with the air would have
slowed the bullet to around 1800 fps when it hit JFK, which is about 100
feet per frame. By the time it passed through both men's torsos,
estimates are that it was moving at about 50 feet per frame. After
smashing through JBC's wrist, it has been estimated that the bullet had
slowed to a little over 20 feet per frame.
Not that it matters but, the velocity after leaving JFK was 1772 fps.
From page 105 of the WCR.
1772 divided by 18.3 fps of film equals 96.83 fps
That is not a fact. That is an estimate.
tomnln
2009-04-08 03:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by tomnln
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.- Hide quoted text -
Not that it matters but basic math won't cut it. The bullet did not
travel at a constant velocity. It left the muzzle at approximately 2265
fps, more than 100 feet per frame. Friction with the air would have
slowed the bullet to around 1800 fps when it hit JFK, which is about 100
feet per frame. By the time it passed through both men's torsos,
estimates are that it was moving at about 50 feet per frame. After
smashing through JBC's wrist, it has been estimated that the bullet had
slowed to a little over 20 feet per frame.
Not that it matters but, the velocity after leaving JFK was 1772 fps.
From page 105 of the WCR.
1772 divided by 18.3 fps of film equals 96.83 fps
That is not a fact. That is an estimate.
MARSH doesn't know that Math is a "Science"???


As Always I gave official Citation

As Always Marsh gives "Opinion".
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-08 22:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by tomnln
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.- Hide quoted text -
Not that it matters but basic math won't cut it. The bullet did not
travel at a constant velocity. It left the muzzle at approximately 2265
fps, more than 100 feet per frame. Friction with the air would have
slowed the bullet to around 1800 fps when it hit JFK, which is about 100
feet per frame. By the time it passed through both men's torsos,
estimates are that it was moving at about 50 feet per frame. After
smashing through JBC's wrist, it has been estimated that the bullet had
slowed to a little over 20 feet per frame.
Not that it matters but, the velocity after leaving JFK was 1772 fps.
From page 105 of the WCR.
1772 divided by 18.3 fps of film equals 96.83 fps
That is not a fact. That is an estimate.
MARSH doesn't know that Math is a "Science"???
Where did you get your 1772 fps? That was only an estimate, not a proven
fact.
As Always I gave official Citation
As Always Marsh gives "Opinion".
tomnln
2009-04-09 03:42:02 UTC
Permalink
BOTTOM POST;
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by tomnln
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.- Hide quoted text -
Not that it matters but basic math won't cut it. The bullet did not
travel at a constant velocity. It left the muzzle at approximately 2265
fps, more than 100 feet per frame. Friction with the air would have
slowed the bullet to around 1800 fps when it hit JFK, which is about 100
feet per frame. By the time it passed through both men's torsos,
estimates are that it was moving at about 50 feet per frame. After
smashing through JBC's wrist, it has been estimated that the bullet had
slowed to a little over 20 feet per frame.
Not that it matters but, the velocity after leaving JFK was 1772 fps.
From page 105 of the WCR.
1772 divided by 18.3 fps of film equals 96.83 fps
That is not a fact. That is an estimate.
MARSH doesn't know that Math is a "Science"???
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marsh wrote;
Post by Anthony Marsh
Where did you get your 1772 fps? That was only an estimate, not a proven
fact.
I write;

See Warren Report page 105.

To be Exact is states "at a velocity of 1772 to 1779 feet per second"

As Always I gave "Official Citations"

As Always Marsh gives his "Opinions".
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-10 00:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomnln
BOTTOM POST;
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by tomnln
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every frame
of film.- Hide quoted text -
Not that it matters but basic math won't cut it. The bullet did not
travel at a constant velocity. It left the muzzle at approximately 2265
fps, more than 100 feet per frame. Friction with the air would have
slowed the bullet to around 1800 fps when it hit JFK, which is about 100
feet per frame. By the time it passed through both men's torsos,
estimates are that it was moving at about 50 feet per frame. After
smashing through JBC's wrist, it has been estimated that the bullet had
slowed to a little over 20 feet per frame.
Not that it matters but, the velocity after leaving JFK was 1772 fps.
From page 105 of the WCR.
1772 divided by 18.3 fps of film equals 96.83 fps
That is not a fact. That is an estimate.
MARSH doesn't know that Math is a "Science"???
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marsh wrote;
Post by Anthony Marsh
Where did you get your 1772 fps? That was only an estimate, not a
proven fact.
I write;
See Warren Report page 105.
To be Exact is states "at a velocity of 1772 to 1779 feet per second"
Nice try, but again those are estimates.
Post by tomnln
As Always I gave "Official Citations"
As Always Marsh gives his "Opinions".
So all the official documents I post are only opinions?
Post by tomnln
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-07 03:35:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive
reasoning. >>> It
Post by bigdog
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the
shooting >>> by
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high
powered >>> rifle
Post by bigdog
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and
the >>> wrist
Post by bigdog
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh.
Contrary >>> to
Post by bigdog
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic >>>
gymnastics.
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain
suspended >>> in
Post by bigdog
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from
JFK's >>> back
Post by bigdog
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for
the >>> SBT is
Post by bigdog
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC
favored >>> the
Post by bigdog
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though
that
Post by bigdog
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they
could >>> not
Post by bigdog
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first
shot >>> which
Post by bigdog
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was
hidden >>> from
Post by bigdog
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit
when he
Post by bigdog
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If
Oswald's >>> second
Post by bigdog
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that
first >>> hit
Post by bigdog
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this
would >>> allow
Post by bigdog
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6
seconds if >>> one
Post by bigdog
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues
from >>> the
Post by bigdog
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction
to >>> being
Post by bigdog
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to
his >>> right
Post by bigdog
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe
that >>> JBC
Post by bigdog
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of
more >>> than
Post by bigdog
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first
reappeared >>> from
Post by bigdog
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the
lapel >>> is
Post by bigdog
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his
coat, >>> this
Post by bigdog
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226.
It >>> is
Post by bigdog
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and
rapid >>> up
Post by bigdog
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same
forearm >>> that
Post by bigdog
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted
from >>> Z226
Post by bigdog
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at
Z225. >>> Both
Post by bigdog
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted
at >>> the
Post by bigdog
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both
men >>> at
Post by bigdog
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just
as we >>> see
Post by bigdog
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were
reacting to
Post by bigdog
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction.
There >>> was no
Post by bigdog
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222
time >>> frame
Post by bigdog
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of >
nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are >
multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC presented it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB could have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
You have made some ridiculous assertions over the few years I have been
frequenting these boards but this might take the cake. To think you can
invalidate the SBT simply because the limitations of the best piece of
evidence, the Z-film, do not allow for pinpointing the exact frame is
about as absurd as it gets. You on the other hand are free to postulate
exploding bullets in the complete absence of evidence of such simply
because it makes for an interesting story. Why don't we all play by the
same rules. Under whatever scenario you believe caused the wounds to JFK
and JBC, tell us exactly which frame JFK was hit in the back. Tell us
EXACTLY which frame you believe JBC was struck at. If you are going to
demand that the SB be pinpointed to an exact frame, than it is incumbent
upon you to do the same to support any alternative theory you are
proposing.
After studying the Zapruder Film frame by frame;
JBC said he was hit between frames 231-234 (Volume IV page 145)
Connally told the WC that he was hit at about frame Z-230 when he was
facing forward. Why don't you make the SBT then?
Post by bigdog
Dr. Shaw said JBC was hit at frame 236 (Volume IV page 114)
Shaw was guessing based on the wounds. Remember that he was not a fan of
the SBT.
Post by bigdog
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every
frame of film.
tomnln
2009-04-07 04:57:17 UTC
Permalink
BOTTOM POST;
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive
reasoning. >>> It
Post by bigdog
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the
shooting >>> by
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high
powered >>> rifle
Post by bigdog
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and
the >>> wrist
Post by bigdog
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh.
Contrary >>> to
Post by bigdog
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic >>>
gymnastics.
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain
suspended >>> in
Post by bigdog
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from
JFK's >>> back
Post by bigdog
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for
the >>> SBT is
Post by bigdog
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC
favored >>> the
Post by bigdog
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though
that
Post by bigdog
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they
could >>> not
Post by bigdog
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first
shot >>> which
Post by bigdog
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was
hidden >>> from
Post by bigdog
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit
when he
Post by bigdog
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If
Oswald's >>> second
Post by bigdog
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that
first >>> hit
Post by bigdog
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this
would >>> allow
Post by bigdog
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6
seconds if >>> one
Post by bigdog
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues
from >>> the
Post by bigdog
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction
to >>> being
Post by bigdog
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to
his >>> right
Post by bigdog
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe
that >>> JBC
Post by bigdog
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of
more >>> than
Post by bigdog
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first
reappeared >>> from
Post by bigdog
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the
lapel >>> is
Post by bigdog
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his
coat, >>> this
Post by bigdog
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226.
It >>> is
Post by bigdog
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and
rapid >>> up
Post by bigdog
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same
forearm >>> that
Post by bigdog
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted
from >>> Z226
Post by bigdog
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at
Z225. >>> Both
Post by bigdog
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted
at >>> the
Post by bigdog
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both
men >>> at
Post by bigdog
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just
as we >>> see
Post by bigdog
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were
reacting to
Post by bigdog
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction.
There >>> was no
Post by bigdog
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222
time >>> frame
Post by bigdog
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of >
nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are >
multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC presented it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB could have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
You have made some ridiculous assertions over the few years I have been
frequenting these boards but this might take the cake. To think you can
invalidate the SBT simply because the limitations of the best piece of
evidence, the Z-film, do not allow for pinpointing the exact frame is
about as absurd as it gets. You on the other hand are free to postulate
exploding bullets in the complete absence of evidence of such simply
because it makes for an interesting story. Why don't we all play by the
same rules. Under whatever scenario you believe caused the wounds to JFK
and JBC, tell us exactly which frame JFK was hit in the back. Tell us
EXACTLY which frame you believe JBC was struck at. If you are going to
demand that the SB be pinpointed to an exact frame, than it is incumbent
upon you to do the same to support any alternative theory you are
proposing.
After studying the Zapruder Film frame by frame;
JBC said he was hit between frames 231-234 (Volume IV page 145)
Connally told the WC that he was hit at about frame Z-230 when he was
facing forward. Why don't you make the SBT then?
Post by bigdog
Dr. Shaw said JBC was hit at frame 236 (Volume IV page 114)
Shaw was guessing based on the wounds. Remember that he was not a fan of
the SBT.
Post by bigdog
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every
frame of film.
---------------------------------------------------------------
MARSH;

Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 145?
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IVB page 114?
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-07 18:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomnln
BOTTOM POST;
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive
reasoning. >>> It
Post by bigdog
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the
shooting >>> by
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high
powered >>> rifle
Post by bigdog
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more
than
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and
the >>> wrist
Post by bigdog
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh.
Contrary >>> to
Post by bigdog
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic >>>
gymnastics.
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain
suspended >>> in
Post by bigdog
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from
JFK's >>> back
Post by bigdog
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's
back,
Post by bigdog
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for
the >>> SBT is
Post by bigdog
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC
favored >>> the
Post by bigdog
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though
that
Post by bigdog
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they
could >>> not
Post by bigdog
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first
shot >>> which
Post by bigdog
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was
hidden >>> from
Post by bigdog
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit
when he
Post by bigdog
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time
of >>> the
Post by bigdog
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If
Oswald's >>> second
Post by bigdog
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that
first >>> hit
Post by bigdog
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this
would >>> allow
Post by bigdog
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6
seconds if >>> one
Post by bigdog
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues
from >>> the
Post by bigdog
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction
to >>> being
Post by bigdog
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to
his >>> right
Post by bigdog
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe
that >>> JBC
Post by bigdog
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of
more >>> than
Post by bigdog
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of
the
Post by bigdog
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first
reappeared >>> from
Post by bigdog
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the
lapel >>> is
Post by bigdog
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his
coat, >>> this
Post by bigdog
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226.
It >>> is
Post by bigdog
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and
rapid >>> up
Post by bigdog
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same
forearm >>> that
Post by bigdog
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted
from >>> Z226
Post by bigdog
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this
is >>> the
Post by bigdog
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at
Z225. >>> Both
Post by bigdog
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted
at >>> the
Post by bigdog
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both
men >>> at
Post by bigdog
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just
as we >>> see
Post by bigdog
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were
reacting to
Post by bigdog
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction.
There >>> was no
Post by bigdog
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222
time >>> frame
Post by bigdog
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious
reactions >>> to
Post by bigdog
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do
realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another
scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of >
nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are >
multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC
presented > it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB could have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a >
second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
You have made some ridiculous assertions over the few years I have been
frequenting these boards but this might take the cake. To think you can
invalidate the SBT simply because the limitations of the best piece of
evidence, the Z-film, do not allow for pinpointing the exact frame is
about as absurd as it gets. You on the other hand are free to postulate
exploding bullets in the complete absence of evidence of such simply
because it makes for an interesting story. Why don't we all play by the
same rules. Under whatever scenario you believe caused the wounds to JFK
and JBC, tell us exactly which frame JFK was hit in the back. Tell us
EXACTLY which frame you believe JBC was struck at. If you are going to
demand that the SB be pinpointed to an exact frame, than it is incumbent
upon you to do the same to support any alternative theory you are
proposing.
After studying the Zapruder Film frame by frame;
JBC said he was hit between frames 231-234 (Volume IV page 145)
Connally told the WC that he was hit at about frame Z-230 when he was
facing forward. Why don't you make the SBT then?
Post by bigdog
Dr. Shaw said JBC was hit at frame 236 (Volume IV page 114)
Shaw was guessing based on the wounds. Remember that he was not a fan
of the SBT.
Post by bigdog
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every
frame of film.
---------------------------------------------------------------
MARSH;
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 145?
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IVB page 114?
Are you denying what I have often quoted from the INTERNAL WC memo? You
need to have more than just the 26 volumes.

http://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/PGappD.html

Next | ToC | Prev






Appendix D



A Later Memorandum to J. Lee Rankin
from Norman Redlich
Author's note: This memorandum by staff lawyer Redlich explicitly
states that the object of the investigation was not to determine the
truth as far as it could be known, but rather to substantiate a
preconceived conclusion.

MEMORANDUM April 27, 1964
TO: J. Lee Rankin
FROM: Norman Redlich



The purpose of this memorandum is to explain the reasons why
certain members of the staff feel that it is important to take certain
on-site photographs in connection with the location of the approximate
points at which the three bullets struck the occupants of the
Presidential limousine.
Our report presumably will state that the President was hit
by the first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President
by the third and fatal bullet. The report will also conclude that the
bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast
corner window of the TSBD building.
As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown
that these events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested
above. All we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be
supported by the medical testimony but which has not been checked out
against the physical facts at the scene of the assassination.
Our examination of the Zapruder films shows that the fatal
third shot struck the President at a point which we can locate with
reasonable accuracy on the ground. We can do this because we know the
exact frame (no. 313) in the film at which the third shot hit the
President and we know the location of the photographer. By lining up
fixed objects in the movie fram [sic] where this shot occurs we feel
that we have determined the approximate location of this shot. This can
be verified by a photo of the same spot from the point were Zapruder was
standing.
We have the testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally that the
Governor was hit with the second bullet at a point which we probably
cannot fix with precision. We feel we have established, however, with
the help of medical testimony, that the shot which hit the Governor did
not come after frame 240 on the Zapruder film. The Governor feels that
it came around 230 which is certainly consistent with our observations
of the film and with the doctor's testimony. Since the President was
shot at frame 313, this would leave a time of at least 4 seconds between
two shots, certainly ample for even an inexperienced marksman.
Prior to our last viewing of the films with Governor Connally
we had assumed that the President was hit while he was concealed behind
the sign which occurs between frames 215 to 225. We have expert
testimony to the effect that a skilled marksman would require a minimum
of time of 2 1/4 seconds between shots with this rifle. Since the camera
operates at 18 1/3 frames per second, there would have to be a minimum
of 40 frames between shots. It is apparent therefore, that if Governor
Connally was hit even as late as frame 240, the President would have to
have been hit no later than frame 190 and probably even earlier.
We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine
whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to
frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which corresponds
to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish by
photography that the assassin could have fired the first shot at the
President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the
point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis
which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.
I had always assumed that our final report would be
accompanied by a surveyor's diagram which would indicate the appropriate
location of the three shots. We certainly cannot prepare such a diagram
without establishing that we are describing an occurrence which is
physically possible. Our failure to do this will, in my opinion, place
this Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty that others will examine
the Zapruder films and raise the same questions which have been raised
by our examination of the films. If we do not attempt to answer these
questions with observable facts, others may answer them with facts which
challenge our most basic assumptions, or with fanciful theories based on
our unwillingness to test our assumptions by the investigatory methods
available to us.
I should add that the facts which we now have in our
possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret
Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a
completely misleading picture.
It may well be that this project should be undertaken by the
FBI and Secret Service with our assistance instead of being done as a
staff project. The important thing is that the project be undertaken
expeditiously.


Next | ToC | Prev back to JFK | ratville times | rat haus | Index | Search

This is an OFFICIAL RECORD.
tomnln
2009-04-08 03:11:34 UTC
Permalink
TOP POST;

MARSH;

Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 145?
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 114?

They are testimony from JBC And Dr. Shaw.


Your reply refers to Someone Else's thoughts on an official record....
Found HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/april_22.htm
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by tomnln
BOTTOM POST;
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive
reasoning. >>> It
Post by bigdog
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the
shooting >>> by
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high
powered >>> rifle
Post by bigdog
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more
than
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and
the >>> wrist
Post by bigdog
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh.
Contrary >>> to
Post by bigdog
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic >>>
gymnastics.
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain
suspended >>> in
Post by bigdog
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from
JFK's >>> back
Post by bigdog
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's
back,
Post by bigdog
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for
the >>> SBT is
Post by bigdog
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC
favored >>> the
Post by bigdog
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though
that
Post by bigdog
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they
could >>> not
Post by bigdog
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first
shot >>> which
Post by bigdog
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was
hidden >>> from
Post by bigdog
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit
when he
Post by bigdog
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time
of >>> the
Post by bigdog
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If
Oswald's >>> second
Post by bigdog
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that
first >>> hit
Post by bigdog
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this
would >>> allow
Post by bigdog
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6
seconds if >>> one
Post by bigdog
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues
from >>> the
Post by bigdog
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction
to >>> being
Post by bigdog
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to
his >>> right
Post by bigdog
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe
that >>> JBC
Post by bigdog
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of
more >>> than
Post by bigdog
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of
the
Post by bigdog
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first
reappeared >>> from
Post by bigdog
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the
lapel >>> is
Post by bigdog
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his
coat, >>> this
Post by bigdog
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226.
It >>> is
Post by bigdog
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and
rapid >>> up
Post by bigdog
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same
forearm >>> that
Post by bigdog
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted
from >>> Z226
Post by bigdog
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this
is >>> the
Post by bigdog
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at
Z225. >>> Both
Post by bigdog
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted
at >>> the
Post by bigdog
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both
men >>> at
Post by bigdog
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just
as we >>> see
Post by bigdog
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were
reacting to
Post by bigdog
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction.
There >>> was no
Post by bigdog
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222
time >>> frame
Post by bigdog
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious
reactions >>> to
Post by bigdog
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do
realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another
scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of >
nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are >
multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC
presented > it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB could have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a >
second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
You have made some ridiculous assertions over the few years I have been
frequenting these boards but this might take the cake. To think you can
invalidate the SBT simply because the limitations of the best piece of
evidence, the Z-film, do not allow for pinpointing the exact frame is
about as absurd as it gets. You on the other hand are free to postulate
exploding bullets in the complete absence of evidence of such simply
because it makes for an interesting story. Why don't we all play by the
same rules. Under whatever scenario you believe caused the wounds to JFK
and JBC, tell us exactly which frame JFK was hit in the back. Tell us
EXACTLY which frame you believe JBC was struck at. If you are going to
demand that the SB be pinpointed to an exact frame, than it is incumbent
upon you to do the same to support any alternative theory you are
proposing.
After studying the Zapruder Film frame by frame;
JBC said he was hit between frames 231-234 (Volume IV page 145)
Connally told the WC that he was hit at about frame Z-230 when he was
facing forward. Why don't you make the SBT then?
Post by bigdog
Dr. Shaw said JBC was hit at frame 236 (Volume IV page 114)
Shaw was guessing based on the wounds. Remember that he was not a fan
of the SBT.
Post by bigdog
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every
frame of film.
---------------------------------------------------------------
MARSH;
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 145?
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 114?
Are you denying what I have often quoted from the INTERNAL WC memo? You
need to have more than just the 26 volumes.
http://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/PGappD.html
Next | ToC | Prev
Appendix D
A Later Memorandum to J. Lee Rankin
from Norman Redlich
Author's note: This memorandum by staff lawyer Redlich explicitly
states that the object of the investigation was not to determine the truth
as far as it could be known, but rather to substantiate a preconceived
conclusion.
MEMORANDUM April 27, 1964
TO: J. Lee Rankin
FROM: Norman Redlich
The purpose of this memorandum is to explain the reasons why
certain members of the staff feel that it is important to take certain
on-site photographs in connection with the location of the approximate
points at which the three bullets struck the occupants of the Presidential
limousine.
Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by
the first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President by
the third and fatal bullet. The report will also conclude that the bullets
were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast corner
window of the TSBD building.
As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown that
these events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested above.
All we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be supported by
the medical testimony but which has not been checked out against the
physical facts at the scene of the assassination.
Our examination of the Zapruder films shows that the fatal third
shot struck the President at a point which we can locate with reasonable
accuracy on the ground. We can do this because we know the exact frame
(no. 313) in the film at which the third shot hit the President and we
know the location of the photographer. By lining up fixed objects in the
movie fram [sic] where this shot occurs we feel that we have determined
the approximate location of this shot. This can be verified by a photo of
the same spot from the point were Zapruder was standing.
We have the testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally that the
Governor was hit with the second bullet at a point which we probably
cannot fix with precision. We feel we have established, however, with the
help of medical testimony, that the shot which hit the Governor did not
come after frame 240 on the Zapruder film. The Governor feels that it came
around 230 which is certainly consistent with our observations of the film
and with the doctor's testimony. Since the President was shot at frame
313, this would leave a time of at least 4 seconds between two shots,
certainly ample for even an inexperienced marksman.
Prior to our last viewing of the films with Governor Connally we
had assumed that the President was hit while he was concealed behind the
sign which occurs between frames 215 to 225. We have expert testimony to
the effect that a skilled marksman would require a minimum of time of 2
1/4 seconds between shots with this rifle. Since the camera operates at 18
1/3 frames per second, there would have to be a minimum of 40 frames
between shots. It is apparent therefore, that if Governor Connally was hit
even as late as frame 240, the President would have to have been hit no
later than frame 190 and probably even earlier.
We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine
whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to frame
190. We could locate the position on the ground which corresponds to this
frame and it would then be our intent to establish by photography that the
assassin could have fired the first shot at the President prior to this
point. Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy,
but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions
that Oswald was the sole assassin.
I had always assumed that our final report would be accompanied
by a surveyor's diagram which would indicate the appropriate location of
the three shots. We certainly cannot prepare such a diagram without
establishing that we are describing an occurrence which is physically
possible. Our failure to do this will, in my opinion, place this Report in
jeopardy since it is a certainty that others will examine the Zapruder
films and raise the same questions which have been raised by our
examination of the films. If we do not attempt to answer these questions
with observable facts, others may answer them with facts which challenge
our most basic assumptions, or with fanciful theories based on our
unwillingness to test our assumptions by the investigatory methods
available to us.
I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession,
submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are
totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely
misleading picture.
It may well be that this project should be undertaken by the FBI
and Secret Service with our assistance instead of being done as a staff
project. The important thing is that the project be undertaken
expeditiously.
Next | ToC | Prev back to JFK | ratville times | rat haus | Index | Search
This is an OFFICIAL RECORD.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-09 03:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomnln
TOP POST;
MARSH;
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 145?
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 114?
They are testimony from JBC And Dr. Shaw.
Your reply refers to Someone Else's thoughts on an official record....
Found HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/april_22.htm
My citation of an OFFICIAL RECORD is what Connally told the WC.
Post by tomnln
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by tomnln
BOTTOM POST;
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive
reasoning. >>> It
Post by bigdog
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the
result of
Post by bigdog
piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the
shooting >>> by
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high
powered >>> rifle
Post by bigdog
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more
than
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and
the >>> wrist
Post by bigdog
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh.
Contrary >>> to
Post by bigdog
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not
require a
Post by bigdog
magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic >>>
gymnastics.
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain
suspended >>> in
Post by bigdog
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from
JFK's >>> back
Post by bigdog
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's
back,
Post by bigdog
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his
left
Post by bigdog
thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for
the >>> SBT is
Post by bigdog
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the
Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT,
the
Post by bigdog
Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC
favored >>> the
Post by bigdog
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though
that
Post by bigdog
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they
could >>> not
Post by bigdog
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first
shot >>> which
Post by bigdog
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was
hidden >>> from
Post by bigdog
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course
is >>> a
Post by bigdog
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit
when he
Post by bigdog
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time
of >>> the
Post by bigdog
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If
Oswald's >>> second
Post by bigdog
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that
first >>> hit
Post by bigdog
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this
would >>> allow
Post by bigdog
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6
seconds if >>> one
Post by bigdog
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues
from >>> the
Post by bigdog
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction
to >>> being
Post by bigdog
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to
his >>> right
Post by bigdog
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe
that >>> JBC
Post by bigdog
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of
more >>> than
Post by bigdog
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The
consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of
the
Post by bigdog
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first
reappeared >>> from
Post by bigdog
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this
argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the
lapel >>> is
Post by bigdog
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his
coat, >>> this
Post by bigdog
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226.
It >>> is
Post by bigdog
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and
rapid >>> up
Post by bigdog
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same
forearm >>> that
Post by bigdog
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted
from >>> Z226
Post by bigdog
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this
is >>> the
Post by bigdog
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at
Z225. >>> Both
Post by bigdog
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same
time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down
movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a
bullet, I
Post by bigdog
would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted
at >>> the
Post by bigdog
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through
both
men >>> at
Post by bigdog
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway
sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is
appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just
as we >>> see
Post by bigdog
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were
reacting to
Post by bigdog
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction.
There >>> was no
Post by bigdog
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in
mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222
time >>> frame
Post by bigdog
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious
reactions >>> to
Post by bigdog
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you
have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do
realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another
scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of >
nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are >
multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC
presented > it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB
could
have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a >
second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
You have made some ridiculous assertions over the few years I have been
frequenting these boards but this might take the cake. To think you can
invalidate the SBT simply because the limitations of the best piece of
evidence, the Z-film, do not allow for pinpointing the exact frame is
about as absurd as it gets. You on the other hand are free to postulate
exploding bullets in the complete absence of evidence of such simply
because it makes for an interesting story. Why don't we all play by the
same rules. Under whatever scenario you believe caused the wounds to JFK
and JBC, tell us exactly which frame JFK was hit in the back. Tell us
EXACTLY which frame you believe JBC was struck at. If you are going to
demand that the SB be pinpointed to an exact frame, than it is incumbent
upon you to do the same to support any alternative theory you are
proposing.
After studying the Zapruder Film frame by frame;
JBC said he was hit between frames 231-234 (Volume IV page 145)
Connally told the WC that he was hit at about frame Z-230 when he was
facing forward. Why don't you make the SBT then?
Post by bigdog
Dr. Shaw said JBC was hit at frame 236 (Volume IV page 114)
Shaw was guessing based on the wounds. Remember that he was not a fan
of the SBT.
Post by bigdog
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every
frame of film.
---------------------------------------------------------------
MARSH;
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 145?
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 114?
Are you denying what I have often quoted from the INTERNAL WC memo?
You need to have more than just the 26 volumes.
http://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/PGappD.html
Next | ToC | Prev
Appendix D
A Later Memorandum to J. Lee Rankin
from Norman Redlich
Author's note: This memorandum by staff lawyer Redlich explicitly
states that the object of the investigation was not to determine the
truth as far as it could be known, but rather to substantiate a
preconceived conclusion.
MEMORANDUM April 27, 1964
TO: J. Lee Rankin
FROM: Norman Redlich
The purpose of this memorandum is to explain the reasons why certain
members of the staff feel that it is important to take certain on-site
photographs in connection with the location of the approximate points
at which the three bullets struck the occupants of the Presidential
limousine.
Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by the
first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President by
the third and fatal bullet. The report will also conclude that the
bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast
corner window of the TSBD building.
As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown that these
events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested above. All
we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be supported by
the medical testimony but which has not been checked out against the
physical facts at the scene of the assassination.
Our examination of the Zapruder films shows that the fatal third shot
struck the President at a point which we can locate with reasonable
accuracy on the ground. We can do this because we know the exact frame
(no. 313) in the film at which the third shot hit the President and we
know the location of the photographer. By lining up fixed objects in
the movie fram [sic] where this shot occurs we feel that we have
determined the approximate location of this shot. This can be verified
by a photo of the same spot from the point were Zapruder was standing.
We have the testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally that the Governor
was hit with the second bullet at a point which we probably cannot fix
with precision. We feel we have established, however, with the help of
medical testimony, that the shot which hit the Governor did not come
after frame 240 on the Zapruder film. The Governor feels that it came
around 230 which is certainly consistent with our observations of the
film and with the doctor's testimony. Since the President was shot at
frame 313, this would leave a time of at least 4 seconds between two
shots, certainly ample for even an inexperienced marksman.
Prior to our last viewing of the films with Governor Connally we had
assumed that the President was hit while he was concealed behind the
sign which occurs between frames 215 to 225. We have expert testimony
to the effect that a skilled marksman would require a minimum of time
of 2 1/4 seconds between shots with this rifle. Since the camera
operates at 18 1/3 frames per second, there would have to be a minimum
of 40 frames between shots. It is apparent therefore, that if Governor
Connally was hit even as late as frame 240, the President would have
to have been hit no later than frame 190 and probably even earlier.
We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine whether
the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to frame 190.
We could locate the position on the ground which corresponds to this
frame and it would then be our intent to establish by photography that
the assassin could have fired the first shot at the President prior to
this point. Our intention is not to establish the point with complete
accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies
the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.
I had always assumed that our final report would be accompanied by a
surveyor's diagram which would indicate the appropriate location of
the three shots. We certainly cannot prepare such a diagram without
establishing that we are describing an occurrence which is physically
possible. Our failure to do this will, in my opinion, place this
Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty that others will examine
the Zapruder films and raise the same questions which have been raised
by our examination of the films. If we do not attempt to answer these
questions with observable facts, others may answer them with facts
which challenge our most basic assumptions, or with fanciful theories
based on our unwillingness to test our assumptions by the
investigatory methods available to us.
I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession,
submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service,
are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a
completely misleading picture.
It may well be that this project should be undertaken by the FBI and
Secret Service with our assistance instead of being done as a staff
project. The important thing is that the project be undertaken
expeditiously.
Next | ToC | Prev back to JFK | ratville times | rat haus | Index | Search
This is an OFFICIAL RECORD.
tomnln
2009-04-09 22:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by tomnln
TOP POST;
MARSH;
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 145?
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 114?
They are testimony from JBC And Dr. Shaw.
Your reply refers to Someone Else's thoughts on an official record....
Found HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/april_22.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Marsh wrote;
Post by Anthony Marsh
My citation of an OFFICIAL RECORD is what Connally told the WC.
I write;

Thank You;

On page 145 of Volume IV, Connally stated he was hit between 231-234.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by tomnln
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by tomnln
BOTTOM POST;
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive
reasoning. >>> It
Post by bigdog
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the
result of
Post by bigdog
piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the
shooting >>> by
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were
perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high
powered >>> rifle
Post by bigdog
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more
than
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and
the >>> wrist
Post by bigdog
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh.
Contrary >>> to
Post by bigdog
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not
require a
Post by bigdog
magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic >>>
gymnastics.
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain
suspended >>> in
Post by bigdog
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from
JFK's >>> back
Post by bigdog
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's
back,
Post by bigdog
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his
left
Post by bigdog
thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require
a
magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of
the
wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for
the >>> SBT is
Post by bigdog
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the
Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT,
the
Post by bigdog
Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC
favored >>> the
Post by bigdog
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though
that
Post by bigdog
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they
could >>> not
Post by bigdog
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first
shot >>> which
Post by bigdog
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was
hidden >>> from
Post by bigdog
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course
is >>> a
Post by bigdog
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit
when he
Post by bigdog
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time
of >>> the
Post by bigdog
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If
Oswald's >>> second
Post by bigdog
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that
first >>> hit
Post by bigdog
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this
would >>> allow
Post by bigdog
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6
seconds if >>> one
Post by bigdog
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues
from >>> the
Post by bigdog
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction
to >>> being
Post by bigdog
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to
his >>> right
Post by bigdog
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the
Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe
that >>> JBC
Post by bigdog
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of
more >>> than
Post by bigdog
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The
consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of
the
Post by bigdog
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first
reappeared >>> from
Post by bigdog
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this
argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it
a
flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the
lapel >>> is
Post by bigdog
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his
coat, >>> this
Post by bigdog
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226.
It >>> is
Post by bigdog
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and
rapid >>> up
Post by bigdog
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same
forearm >>> that
Post by bigdog
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted
from >>> Z226
Post by bigdog
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this
is >>> the
Post by bigdog
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's
own
visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at
Z225. >>> Both
Post by bigdog
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same
time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down
movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a
bullet, I
Post by bigdog
would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is
secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted
at >>> the
Post by bigdog
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through
both
men >>> at
Post by bigdog
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway
sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is
appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at
the
instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it
becomes
clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just
as we >>> see
Post by bigdog
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were
reacting to
Post by bigdog
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction.
There >>> was no
Post by bigdog
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in
mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222
time >>> frame
Post by bigdog
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious
reactions >>> to
Post by bigdog
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow. At least you
have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following. You do
realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another
scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of >
nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are >
multiple
SBTs. There has never been more than one SBT since the WC
presented > it.
You are out of the loop. The HSCA had its own SBT. Humes had his own SBT.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry of a WC defender has his own SBT with
different diagrams and different frame numbers.
The WC presented a window of about 3/4 of a second when the SB
could
have
hit. Future analysis has narrowed that window to about 1/4 of a >
second.
Narrowed? That's very reassuring. But when you propose a theory you need
to prove it precisely. Close enough does not cut it.
You have made some ridiculous assertions over the few years I have been
frequenting these boards but this might take the cake. To think you can
invalidate the SBT simply because the limitations of the best piece of
evidence, the Z-film, do not allow for pinpointing the exact frame is
about as absurd as it gets. You on the other hand are free to postulate
exploding bullets in the complete absence of evidence of such simply
because it makes for an interesting story. Why don't we all play by the
same rules. Under whatever scenario you believe caused the wounds to JFK
and JBC, tell us exactly which frame JFK was hit in the back. Tell us
EXACTLY which frame you believe JBC was struck at. If you are going to
demand that the SB be pinpointed to an exact frame, than it is incumbent
upon you to do the same to support any alternative theory you are
proposing.
After studying the Zapruder Film frame by frame;
JBC said he was hit between frames 231-234 (Volume IV page 145)
Connally told the WC that he was hit at about frame Z-230 when he was
facing forward. Why don't you make the SBT then?
Post by bigdog
Dr. Shaw said JBC was hit at frame 236 (Volume IV page 114)
Shaw was guessing based on the wounds. Remember that he was not a fan
of the SBT.
Post by bigdog
Basic math tells us that the bullet travels appr. 100 feet for Every
frame of film.
---------------------------------------------------------------
MARSH;
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 145?
Are you denying what I quoted as being in Volume IV page 114?
Are you denying what I have often quoted from the INTERNAL WC memo?
You need to have more than just the 26 volumes.
http://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/PGappD.html
Next | ToC | Prev
Appendix D
A Later Memorandum to J. Lee Rankin
from Norman Redlich
Author's note: This memorandum by staff lawyer Redlich explicitly
states that the object of the investigation was not to determine the
truth as far as it could be known, but rather to substantiate a
preconceived conclusion.
MEMORANDUM April 27, 1964
TO: J. Lee Rankin
FROM: Norman Redlich
The purpose of this memorandum is to explain the reasons why certain
members of the staff feel that it is important to take certain on-site
photographs in connection with the location of the approximate points
at which the three bullets struck the occupants of the Presidential
limousine.
Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by the
first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President by
the third and fatal bullet. The report will also conclude that the
bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast
corner window of the TSBD building.
As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown that these
events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested above. All
we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be supported by
the medical testimony but which has not been checked out against the
physical facts at the scene of the assassination.
Our examination of the Zapruder films shows that the fatal third shot
struck the President at a point which we can locate with reasonable
accuracy on the ground. We can do this because we know the exact frame
(no. 313) in the film at which the third shot hit the President and we
know the location of the photographer. By lining up fixed objects in
the movie fram [sic] where this shot occurs we feel that we have
determined the approximate location of this shot. This can be verified
by a photo of the same spot from the point were Zapruder was standing.
We have the testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally that the Governor
was hit with the second bullet at a point which we probably cannot fix
with precision. We feel we have established, however, with the help of
medical testimony, that the shot which hit the Governor did not come
after frame 240 on the Zapruder film. The Governor feels that it came
around 230 which is certainly consistent with our observations of the
film and with the doctor's testimony. Since the President was shot at
frame 313, this would leave a time of at least 4 seconds between two
shots, certainly ample for even an inexperienced marksman.
Prior to our last viewing of the films with Governor Connally we had
assumed that the President was hit while he was concealed behind the
sign which occurs between frames 215 to 225. We have expert testimony
to the effect that a skilled marksman would require a minimum of time
of 2 1/4 seconds between shots with this rifle. Since the camera
operates at 18 1/3 frames per second, there would have to be a minimum
of 40 frames between shots. It is apparent therefore, that if Governor
Connally was hit even as late as frame 240, the President would have
to have been hit no later than frame 190 and probably even earlier.
We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine whether
the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to frame 190.
We could locate the position on the ground which corresponds to this
frame and it would then be our intent to establish by photography that
the assassin could have fired the first shot at the President prior to
this point. Our intention is not to establish the point with complete
accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies
the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.
I had always assumed that our final report would be accompanied by a
surveyor's diagram which would indicate the appropriate location of
the three shots. We certainly cannot prepare such a diagram without
establishing that we are describing an occurrence which is physically
possible. Our failure to do this will, in my opinion, place this
Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty that others will examine
the Zapruder films and raise the same questions which have been raised
by our examination of the films. If we do not attempt to answer these
questions with observable facts, others may answer them with facts
which challenge our most basic assumptions, or with fanciful theories
based on our unwillingness to test our assumptions by the
investigatory methods available to us.
I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession,
submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service,
are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a
completely misleading picture.
It may well be that this project should be undertaken by the FBI and
Secret Service with our assistance instead of being done as a staff
project. The important thing is that the project be undertaken
expeditiously.
Next | ToC | Prev back to JFK | ratville times | rat haus | Index | Search
This is an OFFICIAL RECORD.
bigdog
2009-04-07 00:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
So for you close enough is good enough. Then why not stick with the
HSCA's SBT at Z-190?-
The HSCA were CTs so it is no wonder they got this wrong.

The proposal that JFK was hit at Z190 reveals just how lame the
accoustical evidence was. They had a definitive frame for the headshot and
so had to work backward from there. That forced them to place the SBT at
Z190. We are supposed to believe that both JFK and JBC sustained
devastating wounds and neither showed any visible reaction for almost two
seconds, then suddenly both men made dramatic movements in reaction to the
shot. That fact alone should have caused them to doubt what the
accoustical analysts were telling them but it was late in the day and it
was just easier to accept it so they could get to their favorite watering
hole.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-07 03:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So for you close enough is good enough. Then why not stick with the
HSCA's SBT at Z-190?-
The HSCA were CTs so it is no wonder they got this wrong.
The proposal that JFK was hit at Z190 reveals just how lame the
accoustical evidence was. They had a definitive frame for the headshot and
so had to work backward from there. That forced them to place the SBT at
You know nothing about the acoustical evidence. The HSCA was stuck with
a shot at Z-190 because they lined up the head shot with the LAST shot
from the TSBD. Had they lined up the head shot with the grassy knoll,
their SBT could have been at Z-210.
Post by bigdog
Z190. We are supposed to believe that both JFK and JBC sustained
devastating wounds and neither showed any visible reaction for almost two
seconds, then suddenly both men made dramatic movements in reaction to the
shot. That fact alone should have caused them to doubt what the
Yet you believe that JFK started reacting to the shot before it was fired.
Post by bigdog
accoustical analysts were telling them but it was late in the day and it
was just easier to accept it so they could get to their favorite watering
hole.
Edison Suddin
2009-04-10 00:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Wasn't it JE Hoover who first came up with the SBT? After all, he told LBJ
this theory, on Nov.29th when he reported his findings of his own
investigation. Then, later he reported it was Spector who canived the SBT.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-12 04:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edison Suddin
Wasn't it JE Hoover who first came up with the SBT? After all, he told LBJ
this theory, on Nov.29th when he reported his findings of his own
investigation. Then, later he reported it was Spector who canived the SBT.
No, I don't see any indication that Hoover came up with any SBT. His
agency issued a report that there were three shots, three hits. Maybe
Humes was the first to come up with a SBT, but that had Connally hit by
two bullets. Belin sometimes claims he thought it up, but I think the
evidence is clear that Specter dreamed it up.
Ritchie Linton
2009-04-13 04:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Edison Suddin
Wasn't it JE Hoover who first came up with the SBT? After all, he told LBJ
this theory, on Nov.29th when he reported his findings of his own
investigation. Then, later he reported it was Spector who canived the SBT.
No, I don't see any indication that Hoover came up with any SBT. His
agency issued a report that there were three shots, three hits.
******************************I think thats correct,Anthony.Actually Hoover
was aghast at the idea of
a single bullet doing all described and emerging intact as alleged.He did
understand evidence&I have always thought it interesting that one of his
first questions
was why the shooter did not shoot as the car approached the book
building.One of the re-enactment photos shows how convincing the frame-up
story
would have appeared thru' the 4power scope then and the whole thing might
have gone off almost seamlessly had Greer turned around then.Front to
back then would have presented little problem in leading to Oswald as
alleged in the window with the rifle.
As it was, tho' there were 3 shots&3 hits after the car turned the corner&
Hoover knew that.
RJ
yeuhd
2009-04-06 04:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
I have no idea what you are talking about by inferring there are multiple
SBTs.
Implying. The writer implies, the reader infers.
curtjester1
2009-04-08 03:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
What you are calling a 'flip' is simply a shadow.  At least you have
dared to proclaim which SB scenario you are following.  You do realize
that you can't use the Posner scenario and then glop another scenario
on top of that, don't you?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
A shadow??? A shadow of what??? Shadows don't just appear out of nowhere.
Something has to cast a shadow. This is typical of the nonsense CTs
typically come up with to deny something that is glaringly obvious.
He gets confronted time and time again, and will just pretend nothing was
shown him. One can scroll almost to the bottom and see the hole in JBC's
coat, which is nowhere near the lapel, and especially nowhere around an
area that would 'flip'.

http://whokilledjfk.net/catch_of_the_day.htm

CJ
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-05 03:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
Wrong. It was born of necessity because Specter thought that the earliest
Kennedy could be hit was at Z-210 and the latest Connally could be hit was
at Z-240. He reasoned that those 30 frames were not enough time for Oswald
to have fired two shots. Unless one bullet wounded both men, that meant
conspiracy. A conspiracy meant nuclear annihilation.
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
No, they didn't. The WC never tried to pinpoint an exact frame. All they
said was any time from Z-210 to Z-225, when it is obvious that Kennedy had
been hit. They never diagrammed the path of the bullet through all the
wounds. Specter holds a rod ABOVE where Kennedy's back wound really was.
Ford changed the wording to verbally move the back wound up high enough to
allow for a SBT. They lied about everything.
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
We doubt that the bullet would look that good after doing all the damage
you allege.
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
You seem to be out of the loop. Your fellow WC defenders have made up
various SBT trajectories which do take twists and turns, not a perfectly
straight line. YOU can not even make a perfectly straight line through
ALL the wounds and into the LEFT thigh.
Try answering some basic questions.
Did your bullet go straight through Connally's wrist?
After it exited his wrist how could it then hit his LEFT thigh when his
right wrist was above his RIGHT thigh?
How could the bullet coming down at an angle exit HIGHER than the
entrance wound on the palm side?
Try putting a dummy's wrist into a contorted position to allow the
bullet to enter the palm side lower and exit higher on the opposite side.

Loading Image...
Post by bigdog
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
There is no magic bullet necessary for both men to be wounded by
separate shots. You can have all your Connally wounds still made by one
bullet.
Post by bigdog
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
The absurdity of the WC's SBT is one of the primary reasons why the vast
majority of the public does not accept the WC report.
Post by bigdog
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
Seemed logical at the time. But what about the HSCA's twisted conclusion
of a SBT at Z-190 based mainly on the acoustical evidence? They claimed
they could see that he was hit then.
Post by bigdog
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
Your deductive reasoning is biased by assuming no conspiracy.
Post by bigdog
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
So what?
Post by bigdog
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
Yeah, it passed too low to cause such an effect, as Lattimer's tests proved.
Post by bigdog
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
So now you've made up your own SBT at Z-221. But that contradicts
Lattimer's theory that the bullet hit at Z-224 and caused the lapel flip.
Why can't you LNers get your act together and agree on something? Maybe
because the evidence is not as conclusive as you claim.
bigdog
2009-04-05 21:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
Wrong. It was born of necessity because Specter thought that the earliest
Kennedy could be hit was at Z-210 and the latest Connally could be hit was
at Z-240. He reasoned that those 30 frames were not enough time for Oswald
to have fired two shots. Unless one bullet wounded both men, that meant
conspiracy. A conspiracy meant nuclear annihilation.
What you have described here is deductive reasoning. There was ample
evidence the shots came from the TSBD. The bolt action rifle that had been
determined to be the murder weapon could not have reasonably been fired
twice in 30 frames. Therefore if the shots came from the TSBD as the
evidence indicated, it must have been one shot which went through both
men.

It is poor deductive reasoning to say that finding for a conspiracy meant
nuclear annihilation. That would hinge on who was behind the conspiracy.
Would a Mafia conspiracy result in nuclear annihilation? Would conspiracy
by right wing oil men result in nuclear annihilation? Would a CIA
conspiracy result in nuclear annihilation? If that was motivation, there
are any number of ways to have found for conspiracy without going down the
road to nuclear war. That would be a risk only if it was determined that
the Soviets or one of their satellite nations had engineered the
assassination. If I recall right, they are not on your list of suspects.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
No, they didn't. The WC never tried to pinpoint an exact frame. All they
said was any time from Z-210 to Z-225, when it is obvious that Kennedy had
been hit. They never diagrammed the path of the bullet through all the
wounds. Specter holds a rod ABOVE where Kennedy's back wound really was.
Ford changed the wording to verbally move the back wound up high enough to
allow for a SBT. They lied about everything.
CE893 shows that JFK and JBC were in a direct line to the SN. They didn't
show this with the precision that future computer animations such as those
done by Failure Analysis and Dale Myers, but they did a pretty good job
with the low tech approach of getting the right answer. They did miss key
clues which would have allowed them to provide a tighter window of frames
when the bullet could have hit, the lapel bulge and JBC's arm flip. That
doesn't mean the got the wrong answer. The complaint that Spceter held the
rod above the actual bullet allignment is a ridiculous red herring that
has been floated for years. Was he supposed to shove the rod through the
JFK stand-in to show the precise path?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
We doubt that the bullet would look that good after doing all the damage
you allege.
And even that argument has been shot down by researchers who have done
recreations which show a bullet could have done what it did and emerged in
the condition that CE399 was in.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
You seem to be out of the loop. Your fellow WC defenders have made up
various SBT trajectories which do take twists and turns, not a perfectly
straight line. YOU can not even make a perfectly straight line through
ALL the wounds and into the LEFT thigh.
Try answering some basic questions.
Did your bullet go straight through Connally's wrist?
After it exited his wrist how could it then hit his LEFT thigh when his
right wrist was above his RIGHT thigh?
How could the bullet coming down at an angle exit HIGHER than the
entrance wound on the palm side?
Try putting a dummy's wrist into a contorted position to allow the
bullet to enter the palm side lower and exit higher on the opposite side.
It was probably less than precise for me to say the bullet took a
perfectly straight line trajectory since there were some minor deflections
as the bullet was slowed and began hitting bones. What I meant to say was
that there was no midair changes of directions as many WC critics have
claimed would have been necessary for the SBT to work.
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/ac/Photo_hsca_ex_73.jpg
Post by bigdog
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
There is no magic bullet necessary for both men to be wounded by
separate shots. You can have all your Connally wounds still made by one
bullet.
You have to explain the elongated wound in JBC's back. A tangental strike
which is the usual argument for this is not consistent with the exit wound
below JBC's right nipple. A line through the entrance and exit wounds is
not a tangental strike. You have to explain what happened to the bullet
which exited JFK's throat and how it could possibly have missed Connally.
If you want to go down the road that both the back and throat wounds were
entrance wounds, that you need to explain how we could have two entrances,
no exits, and no bullets in the body. Take your pick and have fun
explaining these dilemmas.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
The absurdity of the WC's SBT is one of the primary reasons why the vast
majority of the public does not accept the WC report.
There is nothing absurd about the SBT. There is nothing absurd about a
bullet being fired by a high powered rifle and passing through two mens
bodies when they are in allignment with the shooter. There is nothing
absurd about the condition of CE399. It is perfectly consistent with the
path the bullet took and the wounds it produced.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
Seemed logical at the time. But what about the HSCA's twisted conclusion
of a SBT at Z-190 based mainly on the acoustical evidence? They claimed
they could see that he was hit then.
The HSCA was a joke. They were taken in by junk science that was
dumped on them at the 11th hour.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
Your deductive reasoning is biased by assuming no conspiracy.
I don't assume no conspiracy. I believe there was a single gunman
because that is what the evidence indicates. I find no compelling
reason to believe there was a conspiracy because in 45 years, no one
has produced any credible evidence that there was a second gunman or
that Oswald had any accomplices.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
So what?
Post by bigdog
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
Yeah, it passed too low to cause such an effect, as Lattimer's tests proved.
Oh really. Did Lattimer's tests produce tumbling bullet which would have
increased the striking surface of the bullet which would in turn increase
the resistance by the coat. JBC's coat moved. There is no denying that and
it moved just before the visible reactions by JFK and JBC.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
So now you've made up your own SBT at Z-221. But that contradicts
Lattimer's theory that the bullet hit at Z-224 and caused the lapel flip.
Why can't you LNers get your act together and agree on something? Maybe
because the evidence is not as conclusive as you claim.- Hide quoted text -
Oh, Tony, you have made this silly argument over and over again. There is
a clear consensus among modern LNs that the bullet struck during a quarter
second window just prior to JFK's reaction in Z225. Because we don't have
a definitive event in the Z-film as we have for the headshot, there can be
disagreements among reasonable people about precisely which frame the
bullet struck. We are quibbling over a quarter of a second. Compare that
with the wide array of theories which the CT camp has produced. We have
gunmen on the GK, several locations on the GK. We have a gunman on the
Dal-Tex building. We have a gunman in the sewer. We have a gunman in the
driver's seat. We have gunmen all over Dealy Plaza. The list of bad guys
you have given us include the CIA, the FBI, the SS, LBJ, the mob,
pro-Castro Cubans, anti-Castro Cubans, the Russians, right wing oil men,
etc., etc., etc. Boy, that must have been one hell of a planning session.
And you accuse the LN camp of not being able to agree on something. An
amazingly absurd observation.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-07 02:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
Wrong. It was born of necessity because Specter thought that the earliest
Kennedy could be hit was at Z-210 and the latest Connally could be hit was
at Z-240. He reasoned that those 30 frames were not enough time for Oswald
to have fired two shots. Unless one bullet wounded both men, that meant
conspiracy. A conspiracy meant nuclear annihilation.
What you have described here is deductive reasoning. There was ample
evidence the shots came from the TSBD. The bolt action rifle that had been
determined to be the murder weapon could not have reasonably been fired
twice in 30 frames. Therefore if the shots came from the TSBD as the
evidence indicated, it must have been one shot which went through both
men.
Not so obvious when the FBI and WC thought that each man was hit by a
separate bullet.
Post by bigdog
It is poor deductive reasoning to say that finding for a conspiracy meant
nuclear annihilation. That would hinge on who was behind the conspiracy.
Everyone thought they knew who was behind the conspiracy. Castro. That
is why the cover-up was ordered.
Post by bigdog
Would a Mafia conspiracy result in nuclear annihilation? Would conspiracy
by right wing oil men result in nuclear annihilation? Would a CIA
conspiracy result in nuclear annihilation? If that was motivation, there
are any number of ways to have found for conspiracy without going down the
road to nuclear war. That would be a risk only if it was determined that
the Soviets or one of their satellite nations had engineered the
assassination. If I recall right, they are not on your list of suspects.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
No, they didn't. The WC never tried to pinpoint an exact frame. All they
said was any time from Z-210 to Z-225, when it is obvious that Kennedy had
been hit. They never diagrammed the path of the bullet through all the
wounds. Specter holds a rod ABOVE where Kennedy's back wound really was.
Ford changed the wording to verbally move the back wound up high enough to
allow for a SBT. They lied about everything.
CE893 shows that JFK and JBC were in a direct line to the SN. They didn't
Wow, you figured out that Connally was seated in front of Kennedy. So
what? The wounds have to line up perfectly. No room for zigs and zags.
Post by bigdog
show this with the precision that future computer animations such as those
done by Failure Analysis and Dale Myers, but they did a pretty good job
with the low tech approach of getting the right answer. They did miss key
So, what does it tell you when all their animations disagree with each
other?
Post by bigdog
clues which would have allowed them to provide a tighter window of frames
when the bullet could have hit, the lapel bulge and JBC's arm flip. That
doesn't mean the got the wrong answer. The complaint that Spceter held the
rod above the actual bullet allignment is a ridiculous red herring that
has been floated for years. Was he supposed to shove the rod through the
JFK stand-in to show the precise path?
No, that would be too much like admitting where the wound really was and
the rod would not angle downward. The WC in secret admitted that the
back wound was BELOW the throat wound.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
We doubt that the bullet would look that good after doing all the damage
you allege.
And even that argument has been shot down by researchers who have done
recreations which show a bullet could have done what it did and emerged in
the condition that CE399 was in.
No, they haven't.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
You seem to be out of the loop. Your fellow WC defenders have made up
various SBT trajectories which do take twists and turns, not a perfectly
straight line. YOU can not even make a perfectly straight line through
ALL the wounds and into the LEFT thigh.
Try answering some basic questions.
Did your bullet go straight through Connally's wrist?
After it exited his wrist how could it then hit his LEFT thigh when his
right wrist was above his RIGHT thigh?
How could the bullet coming down at an angle exit HIGHER than the
entrance wound on the palm side?
Try putting a dummy's wrist into a contorted position to allow the
bullet to enter the palm side lower and exit higher on the opposite side.
It was probably less than precise for me to say the bullet took a
perfectly straight line trajectory since there were some minor deflections
as the bullet was slowed and began hitting bones. What I meant to say was
that there was no midair changes of directions as many WC critics have
claimed would have been necessary for the SBT to work.
The midair changes are what is known in the industry as RIDICULE.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/ac/Photo_hsca_ex_73.jpg
Post by bigdog
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
There is no magic bullet necessary for both men to be wounded by
separate shots. You can have all your Connally wounds still made by one
bullet.
You have to explain the elongated wound in JBC's back. A tangental strike
I did. It was not as elongated as you claim.
Then you have to explain the same elongation of the supposed entrance
wound on the back of Kennedy's head. You have not, you can not and you
won't even try to answer.
Post by bigdog
which is the usual argument for this is not consistent with the exit wound
below JBC's right nipple. A line through the entrance and exit wounds is
not a tangental strike. You have to explain what happened to the bullet
The bullet hitting a curved surface does not directly affect its path.
Hitting the rib affects the path.
Post by bigdog
which exited JFK's throat and how it could possibly have missed Connally.
I already did. Furhman also took a try at it.
Post by bigdog
If you want to go down the road that both the back and throat wounds were
entrance wounds, that you need to explain how we could have two entrances,
no exits, and no bullets in the body. Take your pick and have fun
explaining these dilemmas.
I have NEVER said the throat wound was an entrance. Go peddle your straw
man arguments elsewhere.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
The absurdity of the WC's SBT is one of the primary reasons why the vast
majority of the public does not accept the WC report.
There is nothing absurd about the SBT. There is nothing absurd about a
bullet being fired by a high powered rifle and passing through two mens
bodies when they are in allignment with the shooter. There is nothing
absurd about the condition of CE399. It is perfectly consistent with the
path the bullet took and the wounds it produced.
I seem to be the only one here who has cited actual cases of one bullet
going through two people. I know it happens. But the wounds have to line
up perfectly. They don't.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
Seemed logical at the time. But what about the HSCA's twisted conclusion
of a SBT at Z-190 based mainly on the acoustical evidence? They claimed
they could see that he was hit then.
The HSCA was a joke. They were taken in by junk science that was
dumped on them at the 11th hour.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
Your deductive reasoning is biased by assuming no conspiracy.
I don't assume no conspiracy. I believe there was a single gunman
because that is what the evidence indicates. I find no compelling
reason to believe there was a conspiracy because in 45 years, no one
has produced any credible evidence that there was a second gunman or
that Oswald had any accomplices.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
So what?
Post by bigdog
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
Yeah, it passed too low to cause such an effect, as Lattimer's tests proved.
Oh really. Did Lattimer's tests produce tumbling bullet which would have
increased the striking surface of the bullet which would in turn increase
the resistance by the coat. JBC's coat moved. There is no denying that and
it moved just before the visible reactions by JFK and JBC.
I don't know what you mean. Of course Lattimer could produce tumbling
bullets at will. So what?
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
So now you've made up your own SBT at Z-221. But that contradicts
Lattimer's theory that the bullet hit at Z-224 and caused the lapel flip.
Why can't you LNers get your act together and agree on something? Maybe
because the evidence is not as conclusive as you claim.- Hide quoted text -
Oh, Tony, you have made this silly argument over and over again. There is
a clear consensus among modern LNs that the bullet struck during a quarter
second window just prior to JFK's reaction in Z225. Because we don't have
a definitive event in the Z-film as we have for the headshot, there can be
disagreements among reasonable people about precisely which frame the
bullet struck. We are quibbling over a quarter of a second. Compare that
The consensus is not nearly as solid as you claim and the lack of
consensus for conspiracy beliefs is not nearly as bad as you portray.
Each side has its share of kooks.
Post by bigdog
with the wide array of theories which the CT camp has produced. We have
gunmen on the GK, several locations on the GK. We have a gunman on the
Dal-Tex building. We have a gunman in the sewer. We have a gunman in the
driver's seat. We have gunmen all over Dealy Plaza. The list of bad guys
you have given us include the CIA, the FBI, the SS, LBJ, the mob,
pro-Castro Cubans, anti-Castro Cubans, the Russians, right wing oil men,
etc., etc., etc. Boy, that must have been one hell of a planning session.
And you accuse the LN camp of not being able to agree on something. An
amazingly absurd observation.
It may not be a case of choosing which group. They may overlap.
yeuhd
2009-04-07 04:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
clues which would have allowed them to provide a tighter window of frames
when the bullet could have hit, the lapel bulge and JBC's arm flip. That
doesn't mean the got the wrong answer. The complaint that Spceter held the
rod above the actual bullet allignment is a ridiculous red herring that
has been floated for years. Was he supposed to shove the rod through the
JFK stand-in to show the precise path?
No, that would be too much like admitting where the wound really was and
the rod would not angle downward. The WC in secret admitted that the
back wound was BELOW the throat wound.
We've been through this all before.

The back wound is below the throat wound if JFK is sitting straight
upright in what is called the "anatomical" position. If JFK's
shoulders and upper back were leaning forward as little as 11 degrees
from the vertical, the back wound shifts to being *above* the throat
wound. The Croft photo taken about 3.5 seconds before JFK was first
shot indeed show his shoulders and upper back slouching forward.

11 to 18 degrees:
Loading Image...

Croft photo:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched3.htm

HSCA illustration:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0055b.htm
(Although JFK's head was not at that tilt, his shoulders and upper
back were; see Croft photo.)

Sitting with the shoulders and upper back slouched slightly forward is
a natural position, and photo after photo of JFK in the motorcade
shows him sitting thus.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-07 21:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by yeuhd
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
clues which would have allowed them to provide a tighter window of frames
when the bullet could have hit, the lapel bulge and JBC's arm flip. That
doesn't mean the got the wrong answer. The complaint that Spceter held the
rod above the actual bullet allignment is a ridiculous red herring that
has been floated for years. Was he supposed to shove the rod through the
JFK stand-in to show the precise path?
No, that would be too much like admitting where the wound really was and
the rod would not angle downward. The WC in secret admitted that the
back wound was BELOW the throat wound.
We've been through this all before.
The back wound is below the throat wound if JFK is sitting straight
upright in what is called the "anatomical" position. If JFK's
Well, I agree that JFK WAS sitting straight upright as we can see from
the Zapruder film. But that is not called the anatomical position.
And his right arm was over the side of the car which raised his right
shoulder at the time of the shot.
Post by yeuhd
shoulders and upper back were leaning forward as little as 11 degrees
from the vertical, the back wound shifts to being *above* the throat
wound. The Croft photo taken about 3.5 seconds before JFK was first
shot indeed show his shoulders and upper back slouching forward.
No, and JFK was not leaning over by 11 to 18 degrees. That is the HSCA
fiction. And even their own Canning drawings show NO LEAN whatsoever.
Post by yeuhd
http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=circleea2.jpg
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched3.htm
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0055b.htm
(Although JFK's head was not at that tilt, his shoulders and upper
back were; see Croft photo.)
Sitting with the shoulders and upper back slouched slightly forward is
a natural position, and photo after photo of JFK in the motorcade
shows him sitting thus.
bigdog
2009-04-07 18:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
Wrong. It was born of necessity because Specter thought that the earliest
Kennedy could be hit was at Z-210 and the latest Connally could be hit was
at Z-240. He reasoned that those 30 frames were not enough time for Oswald
to have fired two shots. Unless one bullet wounded both men, that meant
conspiracy. A conspiracy meant nuclear annihilation.
What you have described here is deductive reasoning. There was ample
evidence the shots came from the TSBD. The bolt action rifle that had been
determined to be the murder weapon could not have reasonably been fired
twice in 30 frames. Therefore if the shots came from the TSBD as the
evidence indicated, it must have been one shot which went through both
men.
Not so obvious when the FBI and WC thought that each man was hit by a
separate bullet.
Post by bigdog
It is poor deductive reasoning to say that finding for a conspiracy meant
nuclear annihilation. That would hinge on who was behind the conspiracy.
Everyone thought they knew who was behind the conspiracy. Castro. That
is why the cover-up was ordered.
Everyone? So are you saying anyone who thought the CIA was behind it
was off their rocker?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Would a Mafia conspiracy result in nuclear annihilation? Would conspiracy
by right wing oil men result in nuclear annihilation? Would a CIA
conspiracy result in nuclear annihilation? If that was motivation, there
are any number of ways to have found for conspiracy without going down the
road to nuclear war. That would be a risk only if it was determined that
the Soviets or one of their satellite nations had engineered the
assassination. If I recall right, they are not on your list of suspects.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
No, they didn't. The WC never tried to pinpoint an exact frame. All they
said was any time from Z-210 to Z-225, when it is obvious that Kennedy had
been hit. They never diagrammed the path of the bullet through all the
wounds. Specter holds a rod ABOVE where Kennedy's back wound really was.
Ford changed the wording to verbally move the back wound up high enough to
allow for a SBT. They lied about everything.
CE893 shows that JFK and JBC were in a direct line to the SN. They didn't
Wow, you figured out that Connally was seated in front of Kennedy. So
what? The wounds have to line up perfectly. No room for zigs and zags.
The wounds did line up perfectly. Although with the technology
available at the time it could not be proven, it was established as a
strong possibility. That is why it came to be known as the Single
Bullet THEORY. With what we know today, I have no problem calling it
the Single Bullet Fact.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
show this with the precision that future computer animations such as those
done by Failure Analysis and Dale Myers, but they did a pretty good job
with the low tech approach of getting the right answer. They did miss key
So, what does it tell you when all their animations disagree with each
other?
The don't disagree. It simply means they are getting more precise.
With what the WC had to work with, they could only establish that the
SBT was a strong possibility since JFK and JBC were lined up with the
SN. The Failure Analysis recreation which I believe was done with
graphics technology from the late 1980s or early 1990s established a
cone from where the single bullet could have been fired from and the
SN was in the center of that cone. Dale Myers, using state-of-the-art
software from around 2000 was able to pinpoint the bullet path with a
high degree of precision.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
clues which would have allowed them to provide a tighter window of frames
when the bullet could have hit, the lapel bulge and JBC's arm flip. That
doesn't mean the got the wrong answer. The complaint that Spceter held the
rod above the actual bullet allignment is a ridiculous red herring that
has been floated for years. Was he supposed to shove the rod through the
JFK stand-in to show the precise path?
No, that would be too much like admitting where the wound really was and
the rod would not angle downward. The WC in secret admitted that the
back wound was BELOW the throat wound.
I didn't know you sat in on the WC's secret meetings. Why didn't you
tell us that before. I'm impressed.

The HSCA forensic panel was in complete agreement that a bullet
entered JFK's back and exited his throat. To argue that this bullet
was on an upward trajectory would require a shot from street level. Do
you see a sniper laying on the pavement along Elm St. at any time in
the Z-film?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
We doubt that the bullet would look that good after doing all the damage
you allege.
And even that argument has been shot down by researchers who have done
recreations which show a bullet could have done what it did and emerged in
the condition that CE399 was in.
No, they haven't.
An Australian research team fired a bullet through animal carcasses
which simulated two torsos as well as rib and wrist bone. They
produced a tumbling bullet which was bent much like CE399 and was not
flattened in its nose. It is ludicrous to suggest that any bullet path
has to be reproduced exactly to show it is even possible. Can you
point to a single instance in the history of criminal investigation in
which ANY bullet path has been reproduced EXACTLY. Every bullet
trajectory is going to be unique because there are so many variables
involved. In order to be possible, something only has to happen once.
The demand by the CTs that a perfect recreation of the SBT is required
to prove it was possible is just another of many red herring arguments
they have made over the decades.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
You seem to be out of the loop. Your fellow WC defenders have made up
various SBT trajectories which do take twists and turns, not a perfectly
straight line. YOU can not even make a perfectly straight line through
ALL the wounds and into the LEFT thigh.
Try answering some basic questions.
Did your bullet go straight through Connally's wrist?
After it exited his wrist how could it then hit his LEFT thigh when his
right wrist was above his RIGHT thigh?
How could the bullet coming down at an angle exit HIGHER than the
entrance wound on the palm side?
Try putting a dummy's wrist into a contorted position to allow the
bullet to enter the palm side lower and exit higher on the opposite side.
It was probably less than precise for me to say the bullet took a
perfectly straight line trajectory since there were some minor deflections
as the bullet was slowed and began hitting bones. What I meant to say was
that there was no midair changes of directions as many WC critics have
claimed would have been necessary for the SBT to work.
The midair changes are what is known in the industry as RIDICULE.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/ac/Photo_hsca_ex_73.jpg
Post by bigdog
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
There is no magic bullet necessary for both men to be wounded by
separate shots. You can have all your Connally wounds still made by one
bullet.
You have to explain the elongated wound in JBC's back. A tangental strike
I did. It was not as elongated as you claim.
Then you have to explain the same elongation of the supposed entrance
wound on the back of Kennedy's head. You have not, you can not and you
won't even try to answer.
I don't need to. Qualifed people are in complete agreement that the
bullet was fired from above and behind JFK.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
which is the usual argument for this is not consistent with the exit wound
below JBC's right nipple. A line through the entrance and exit wounds is
not a tangental strike. You have to explain what happened to the bullet
The bullet hitting a curved surface does not directly affect its path.
Hitting the rib affects the path.
It didn't hit rib until it was exiting. That would not effect the path
from the entrance to the exit.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
which exited JFK's throat and how it could possibly have missed Connally.
I already did. Furhman also took a try at it.
And I suppose it missed everything else in the limo as well.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
If you want to go down the road that both the back and throat wounds were
entrance wounds, that you need to explain how we could have two entrances,
no exits, and no bullets in the body. Take your pick and have fun
explaining these dilemmas.
I have NEVER said the throat wound was an entrance. Go peddle your straw
man arguments elsewhere.
Who's making the strawman arguments. Do you understand what the word
"if" means? I never said you made that argument. I just pointed it out
as one of the possibilites available for those who dispute the SBT. It
was an offer for you to pick your poison.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
The absurdity of the WC's SBT is one of the primary reasons why the vast
majority of the public does not accept the WC report.
There is nothing absurd about the SBT. There is nothing absurd about a
bullet being fired by a high powered rifle and passing through two mens
bodies when they are in allignment with the shooter. There is nothing
absurd about the condition of CE399. It is perfectly consistent with the
path the bullet took and the wounds it produced.
I seem to be the only one here who has cited actual cases of one bullet
going through two people. I know it happens. But the wounds have to line
up perfectly. They don't.
Just how have you esablished that?
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-08 03:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
Wrong. It was born of necessity because Specter thought that the earliest
Kennedy could be hit was at Z-210 and the latest Connally could be hit was
at Z-240. He reasoned that those 30 frames were not enough time for Oswald
to have fired two shots. Unless one bullet wounded both men, that meant
conspiracy. A conspiracy meant nuclear annihilation.
What you have described here is deductive reasoning. There was ample
evidence the shots came from the TSBD. The bolt action rifle that had been
determined to be the murder weapon could not have reasonably been fired
twice in 30 frames. Therefore if the shots came from the TSBD as the
evidence indicated, it must have been one shot which went through both
men.
Not so obvious when the FBI and WC thought that each man was hit by a
separate bullet.
Post by bigdog
It is poor deductive reasoning to say that finding for a conspiracy meant
nuclear annihilation. That would hinge on who was behind the conspiracy.
Everyone thought they knew who was behind the conspiracy. Castro. That
is why the cover-up was ordered.
Everyone? So are you saying anyone who thought the CIA was behind it
was off their rocker?
You mean Bobby Kennedy? He was about the only one to instantly suspect the
CIA. Everyone else thought that Castro was behind it. That was the reason
for the cover-up. It was only later that some people began to suspect the
CIA. In various polls about half the public thinks the CIA did it. Guess
you think half the country are off their rockers. And only you elite 10%
know the real story, right?
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Would a Mafia conspiracy result in nuclear annihilation? Would conspiracy
by right wing oil men result in nuclear annihilation? Would a CIA
conspiracy result in nuclear annihilation? If that was motivation, there
are any number of ways to have found for conspiracy without going down the
road to nuclear war. That would be a risk only if it was determined that
the Soviets or one of their satellite nations had engineered the
assassination. If I recall right, they are not on your list of suspects.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
No, they didn't. The WC never tried to pinpoint an exact frame. All they
said was any time from Z-210 to Z-225, when it is obvious that Kennedy had
been hit. They never diagrammed the path of the bullet through all the
wounds. Specter holds a rod ABOVE where Kennedy's back wound really was.
Ford changed the wording to verbally move the back wound up high enough to
allow for a SBT. They lied about everything.
CE893 shows that JFK and JBC were in a direct line to the SN. They didn't
Wow, you figured out that Connally was seated in front of Kennedy. So
what? The wounds have to line up perfectly. No room for zigs and zags.
The wounds did line up perfectly. Although with the technology
available at the time it could not be proven, it was established as a
strong possibility. That is why it came to be known as the Single
Bullet THEORY. With what we know today, I have no problem calling it
the Single Bullet Fact.
You and Bugliosi. Not 90% of the population.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
show this with the precision that future computer animations such as those
done by Failure Analysis and Dale Myers, but they did a pretty good job
with the low tech approach of getting the right answer. They did miss key
So, what does it tell you when all their animations disagree with each
other?
The don't disagree. It simply means they are getting more precise.
If they are not all identically the same then by definition they
disagree. So, whose is the most precise this Tuesday?
Post by bigdog
With what the WC had to work with, they could only establish that the
SBT was a strong possibility since JFK and JBC were lined up with the
SN. The Failure Analysis recreation which I believe was done with
It's not just a matter of Connally being in front of Kennedy. Specific
angles have to line up perfectly. They do not.
Post by bigdog
graphics technology from the late 1980s or early 1990s established a
cone from where the single bullet could have been fired from and the
SN was in the center of that cone. Dale Myers, using state-of-the-art
software from around 2000 was able to pinpoint the bullet path with a
high degree of precision.
Sure, by lying about the locations of the wounds. Not very impressive
when your heroes have to lie.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
clues which would have allowed them to provide a tighter window of frames
when the bullet could have hit, the lapel bulge and JBC's arm flip. That
doesn't mean the got the wrong answer. The complaint that Spceter held the
rod above the actual bullet allignment is a ridiculous red herring that
has been floated for years. Was he supposed to shove the rod through the
JFK stand-in to show the precise path?
No, that would be too much like admitting where the wound really was and
the rod would not angle downward. The WC in secret admitted that the
back wound was BELOW the throat wound.
I didn't know you sat in on the WC's secret meetings. Why didn't you
tell us that before. I'm impressed.
There are a lot of things you don't know because you are not a
researcher. We found some of their secret transcripts which they
intended to destroy but did not.
Post by bigdog
The HSCA forensic panel was in complete agreement that a bullet
entered JFK's back and exited his throat. To argue that this bullet
was on an upward trajectory would require a shot from street level. Do
you see a sniper laying on the pavement along Elm St. at any time in
the Z-film?
No, again your thinking is so limited. The bullet deflected off the top
of T-1.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
We doubt that the bullet would look that good after doing all the damage
you allege.
And even that argument has been shot down by researchers who have done
recreations which show a bullet could have done what it did and emerged in
the condition that CE399 was in.
No, they haven't.
An Australian research team fired a bullet through animal carcasses
which simulated two torsos as well as rib and wrist bone. They
No, they didn't. Show me how the wrist bone looks.
Post by bigdog
produced a tumbling bullet which was bent much like CE399 and was not
flattened in its nose. It is ludicrous to suggest that any bullet path
And Henry Hurt produced a similar bullet just by firing it into a barrel
of water.
Post by bigdog
has to be reproduced exactly to show it is even possible. Can you
point to a single instance in the history of criminal investigation in
which ANY bullet path has been reproduced EXACTLY. Every bullet
Yes, Trey Cooley.
Post by bigdog
trajectory is going to be unique because there are so many variables
involved. In order to be possible, something only has to happen once.
Oh, so now you invoke magic. It can't happen at any other time in the
world, but when you need it to then you claim it did.
Post by bigdog
The demand by the CTs that a perfect recreation of the SBT is required
to prove it was possible is just another of many red herring arguments
they have made over the decades.
If you propose a theory you need to prove it.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
You seem to be out of the loop. Your fellow WC defenders have made up
various SBT trajectories which do take twists and turns, not a perfectly
straight line. YOU can not even make a perfectly straight line through
ALL the wounds and into the LEFT thigh.
Try answering some basic questions.
Did your bullet go straight through Connally's wrist?
After it exited his wrist how could it then hit his LEFT thigh when his
right wrist was above his RIGHT thigh?
How could the bullet coming down at an angle exit HIGHER than the
entrance wound on the palm side?
Try putting a dummy's wrist into a contorted position to allow the
bullet to enter the palm side lower and exit higher on the opposite side.
It was probably less than precise for me to say the bullet took a
perfectly straight line trajectory since there were some minor deflections
as the bullet was slowed and began hitting bones. What I meant to say was
that there was no midair changes of directions as many WC critics have
claimed would have been necessary for the SBT to work.
The midair changes are what is known in the industry as RIDICULE.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/ac/Photo_hsca_ex_73.jpg
Post by bigdog
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
There is no magic bullet necessary for both men to be wounded by
separate shots. You can have all your Connally wounds still made by one
bullet.
You have to explain the elongated wound in JBC's back. A tangental strike
I did. It was not as elongated as you claim.
Then you have to explain the same elongation of the supposed entrance
wound on the back of Kennedy's head. You have not, you can not and you
won't even try to answer.
I don't need to. Qualifed people are in complete agreement that the
bullet was fired from above and behind JFK.
You don't need to because you can't.
You demand explanations from conspiracy believers then you can't come up
with any of your own.
What caused the elongation? Answer the damn question instead of
constantly blowing smoke.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
which is the usual argument for this is not consistent with the exit wound
below JBC's right nipple. A line through the entrance and exit wounds is
not a tangental strike. You have to explain what happened to the bullet
The bullet hitting a curved surface does not directly affect its path.
Hitting the rib affects the path.
It didn't hit rib until it was exiting. That would not effect the path
from the entrance to the exit.
If you are a WC defender you are supposed to believe the bullet hit the
rib and followed its curved path.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
which exited JFK's throat and how it could possibly have missed Connally.
I already did. Furhman also took a try at it.
And I suppose it missed everything else in the limo as well.
Furhman thinks it hit the chrome topping. I doubt it.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
If you want to go down the road that both the back and throat wounds were
entrance wounds, that you need to explain how we could have two entrances,
no exits, and no bullets in the body. Take your pick and have fun
explaining these dilemmas.
I have NEVER said the throat wound was an entrance. Go peddle your straw
man arguments elsewhere.
Who's making the strawman arguments. Do you understand what the word
"if" means? I never said you made that argument. I just pointed it out
as one of the possibilites available for those who dispute the SBT. It
was an offer for you to pick your poison.
You are setting up strawman arguments as if I must believe one or the
other of them, as if you offer the only alternatives.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
The absurdity of the WC's SBT is one of the primary reasons why the vast
majority of the public does not accept the WC report.
There is nothing absurd about the SBT. There is nothing absurd about a
bullet being fired by a high powered rifle and passing through two mens
bodies when they are in allignment with the shooter. There is nothing
absurd about the condition of CE399. It is perfectly consistent with the
path the bullet took and the wounds it produced.
I seem to be the only one here who has cited actual cases of one bullet
going through two people. I know it happens. But the wounds have to line
up perfectly. They don't.
Just how have you esablished that?
By careful analysis of all the SBT drawings.
bigdog
2009-04-08 22:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
Wrong. It was born of necessity because Specter thought that the earliest
Kennedy could be hit was at Z-210 and the latest Connally could be hit was
at Z-240. He reasoned that those 30 frames were not enough time for Oswald
to have fired two shots. Unless one bullet wounded both men, that meant
conspiracy. A conspiracy meant nuclear annihilation.
What you have described here is deductive reasoning. There was ample
evidence the shots came from the TSBD. The bolt action rifle that had been
determined to be the murder weapon could not have reasonably been fired
twice in 30 frames. Therefore if the shots came from the TSBD as the
evidence indicated, it must have been one shot which went through both
men.
Not so obvious when the FBI and WC thought that each man was hit by a
separate bullet.
Post by bigdog
It is poor deductive reasoning to say that finding for a conspiracy meant
nuclear annihilation. That would hinge on who was behind the conspiracy.
Everyone thought they knew who was behind the conspiracy. Castro. That
is why the cover-up was ordered.
Everyone? So are you saying anyone who thought the CIA was behind it
was off their rocker?
You mean Bobby Kennedy? He was about the only one to instantly suspect the
CIA. Everyone else thought that Castro was behind it. That was the reason
for the cover-up. It was only later that some people began to suspect the
CIA. In various polls about half the public thinks the CIA did it. Guess
you think half the country are off their rockers. And only you elite 10%
know the real story, right?
Oh, so now it's everybody except Bobby Kennedy. I wish you'd get your
story straight. So today, who do you consider to be everybody.
Everybody in the administration? Everybody in the federal government?
Everybody in the country? Everybody in your imagination?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The wounds did line up perfectly. Although with the technology
available at the time it could not be proven, it was established as a
strong possibility. That is why it came to be known as the Single
Bullet THEORY. With what we know today, I have no problem calling it
the Single Bullet Fact.
You and Bugliosi. Not 90% of the population.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
show this with the precision that future computer animations such as those
done by Failure Analysis and Dale Myers, but they did a pretty good job
with the low tech approach of getting the right answer. They did miss key
So, what does it tell you when all their animations disagree with each
other?
The don't disagree. It simply means they are getting more precise.
If they are not all identically the same then by definition they
disagree. So, whose is the most precise this Tuesday?
They don't disagree because none is mutual exclusive with the others.
The WC stated that the SB struck between Z210 and Z224. I believe
Myers places the shot at Z223. That doesn't disargree with what the WC
stated. If Myers is right, the WC was right.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
With what the WC had to work with, they could only establish that the
SBT was a strong possibility since JFK and JBC were lined up with the
SN. The Failure Analysis recreation which I believe was done with
It's not just a matter of Connally being in front of Kennedy. Specific
angles have to line up perfectly. They do not.
Wrong again. You can repeat this as often as you like. You will still
be wrong.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
graphics technology from the late 1980s or early 1990s established a
cone from where the single bullet could have been fired from and the
SN was in the center of that cone. Dale Myers, using state-of-the-art
software from around 2000 was able to pinpoint the bullet path with a
high degree of precision.
Sure, by lying about the locations of the wounds. Not very impressive
when your heroes have to lie.
Sure, Tony, make vague accusations of people lying but provide no
specifics of your own. You demand precision from others yet allow
yourself to be as vague as possible so as not to get pinned down to a
position you have to defend.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
clues which would have allowed them to provide a tighter window of frames
when the bullet could have hit, the lapel bulge and JBC's arm flip. That
doesn't mean the got the wrong answer. The complaint that Spceter held the
rod above the actual bullet allignment is a ridiculous red herring that
has been floated for years. Was he supposed to shove the rod through the
JFK stand-in to show the precise path?
No, that would be too much like admitting where the wound really was and
the rod would not angle downward. The WC in secret admitted that the
back wound was BELOW the throat wound.
I didn't know you sat in on the WC's secret meetings. Why didn't you
tell us that before. I'm impressed.
There are a lot of things you don't know because you are not a
researcher. We found some of their secret transcripts which they
intended to destroy but did not.
"We"??? And to think I just accused you of being vague!
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The HSCA forensic panel was in complete agreement that a bullet
entered JFK's back and exited his throat. To argue that this bullet
was on an upward trajectory would require a shot from street level. Do
you see a sniper laying on the pavement along Elm St. at any time in
the Z-film?
No, again your thinking is so limited. The bullet deflected off the top
of T-1.
Oh, so now we have the Tony Marsh Magic Bullet Theory. And just what
is your evidence of that? The autopsy photo shows the back wound
several inches to the right of the spine. But I'm sure you've done a
recreation to show that this is possible. You wouldn't just make it
up, would you?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
We doubt that the bullet would look that good after doing all the damage
you allege.
And even that argument has been shot down by researchers who have done
recreations which show a bullet could have done what it did and emerged in
the condition that CE399 was in.
No, they haven't.
An Australian research team fired a bullet through animal carcasses
which simulated two torsos as well as rib and wrist bone. They
No, they didn't. Show me how the wrist bone looks.
Here again you go again with this ridiculous argument that everything
must turn out exactly like it did during the assassination in order to
be valid. The purpose of the recreation was to show that a bullet
could pass through two torsos and a wrist bone and due to tumbling
action, does not flatten the nose but instead flattens along the side
and bends just like CE399. The experiment showed just that, refuting
one of the long held claims that CE399 could not be genuine because it
was "pristine".
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
produced a tumbling bullet which was bent much like CE399 and was not
flattened in its nose. It is ludicrous to suggest that any bullet path
And Henry Hurt produced a similar bullet just by firing it into a barrel
of water.
Oh, so similar is OK to prove your points but the LNs must reproduce
everything EXACTLY.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
has to be reproduced exactly to show it is even possible. Can you
point to a single instance in the history of criminal investigation in
which ANY bullet path has been reproduced EXACTLY. Every bullet
Yes, Trey Cooley.
The Prince of Vagueness strikes again. Sure just throw out a name as
if that makes your point for you. I went to the trouble of doing a
google search on the name and got a whole lot of hits on websites
trying to sell me a Medical Detectives video. From the descriptions, I
was able to determine that Trey Cooley was a teenager who was
tragically killed while standing in the lobby of a shooting range by a
stray bullet fired from outside. Apparently the bullet took an amazing
path which avoided several obstacles which could have stopped it and
apparently richocheted once or twice before striking the teenager.
Apparently the researchers for this program used "Ballistics, laser
technology, scale modeling, and computer animation" to re-create the
bullet path. DAMN!!! Why didn't we think of doing that. So tell me,
Tony, did that actually fire a shot that navigated its way through all
the obstacles, made the identical ricochet, hit the victim and
produced a bullet exactly like the one that killed Trey Cooley? That
seems to be the standard you are demanding of the LNs.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
trajectory is going to be unique because there are so many variables
involved. In order to be possible, something only has to happen once.
Oh, so now you invoke magic. It can't happen at any other time in the
world, but when you need it to then you claim it did.
You could drop a watermelon from a ten story building and it will
splatter all over the pavement below. You could drop a million more
watermelons without exactly reproducing the same splatter pattern as
the first watermelon. You would likely get some that were similar, but
you probably would not get an exact match.
Does that mean the first event was not possible?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The demand by the CTs that a perfect recreation of the SBT is required
to prove it was possible is just another of many red herring arguments
they have made over the decades.
If you propose a theory you need to prove it.
You have proposed a theory that JFK was shot from the grassy knoll by
an exploding bullet. Just what have you done to prove that?
Ritchie Linton
2009-04-08 03:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
Wrong. It was born of necessity because Specter thought that the earliest
Kennedy could be hit was at Z-210 and the latest Connally could be hit was
at Z-240. He reasoned that those 30 frames were not enough time for Oswald
to have fired two shots. Unless one bullet wounded both men, that meant
conspiracy. A conspiracy meant nuclear annihilation.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%of course both of U are each assuming that the rifle was
ever proved to have been delivered to Oswald at the post office in the
first place=something that has never been done.No doubt thats why he told
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
What you have described here is deductive reasoning. There was ample
evidence the shots came from the TSBD. The bolt action rifle that had been
determined to be the murder weapon could not have reasonably been fired
twice in 30 frames. Therefore if the shots came from the TSBD as the
evidence indicated, it must have been one shot which went through both
men.
Not so obvious when the FBI and WC thought that each man was hit by a
separate bullet.
%%%%%%%%%%this last remark is partly true.The FBI compendium Report of
Dec.9th certainly asserted that,altho as we know the WC finally adopted
the SBT b/c of the time limitation as noted above.

But the thing is=Oswald was just innocent,and thats why a lot of the
planted evidence found later in frame of patsy(the rifle&the SB)could
never be reconciled with the facts of the shooting sequence actually
recorded in the Zfilm.Of course, no-one expected anybody to be there
filming so this flumoxed later investigation& the actual conspiracy
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
It is poor deductive reasoning to say that finding for a conspiracy meant
nuclear annihilation. That would hinge on who was behind the conspiracy.
Everyone thought they knew who was behind the conspiracy. Castro. That
is why the cover-up was ordered.
%%%%%%%%%%%%not in my book.In my book it was b/c the Oswald file made him
look like a 'commie'-who better to frame in a communist fearing age?Oz
himself also commented on this aspect,surmising that"the reason I am being
taken in is b/c of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union". When it
comes to understanding whose file was seized to frame its well to recall
that they were Military via. the Marines& the ONI.Thats why the cover-up.

Ritchie
w***@comcast.net
2009-04-08 03:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
So, you see yourself as one of the ruling elite smarter than the
.>>unwashed masses. Guess that makes you feel pretty good.

Ah ha! This is the essence of these threads. The discussion of bullett
entry angles and wounds is really just a screen for attempts to assign
blame or assert personal control to a group of people who have no power to
change the past and no power to change the perception of the folks who
think rationally about the events.

A man was killed by an isane man in chaotic circumstances. The Ruling
Elite didn't do it, the CIA didn't do it, the Mob didn't do it. A nutty
guy did it and we had no power to stop him.

It is natural for people to feel disconnected during chaotic events. If an
evil group can be isolated and shown to be the villian, the folks who feel
no power can suddenly grab power to assail the imagined source of their
anger...."The Ruling Eilite" or " The Media".

But here we are, all just plain old joes with access to the same old musty
pictures and scratched films. I'm not an LN because I belong to a ruling
elite. I'm LN because that's the only position that supports what really
happened. A vast ever-growing web of conspriacy isn't going to build you a
solid place to land in this madness. If the conspirators have
super-natural powers to create and manipulate all that the evidence, you
are going to be chasing these tiny little shadows for your whole life.

Actually you guys are all way smarter than me about the individual facts
of the case. You can argue me in circles for weeks without ever repeating
a lick.

But in the end, I dont' have any more or less power than you. It just
happened. We can't change it and nobody buy LHO made it happen. And I am
not in the Ruling Elite. Just ask the loan officer at my bank!
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-08 21:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@comcast.net
Post by Anthony Marsh
So, you see yourself as one of the ruling elite smarter than the
.>>unwashed masses. Guess that makes you feel pretty good.
Ah ha! This is the essence of these threads. The discussion of bullett
entry angles and wounds is really just a screen for attempts to assign
blame or assert personal control to a group of people who have no power to
change the past and no power to change the perception of the folks who
think rationally about the events.
A man was killed by an isane man in chaotic circumstances. The Ruling
Elite didn't do it, the CIA didn't do it, the Mob didn't do it. A nutty
guy did it and we had no power to stop him.
A rogue element of the CIA did it. Not just one person.
Post by w***@comcast.net
It is natural for people to feel disconnected during chaotic events. If an
evil group can be isolated and shown to be the villian, the folks who feel
no power can suddenly grab power to assail the imagined source of their
anger...."The Ruling Eilite" or " The Media".
During that chaotic event the leading suspect was Castro. So much for
your psychobabble.
Post by w***@comcast.net
But here we are, all just plain old joes with access to the same old musty
pictures and scratched films. I'm not an LN because I belong to a ruling
No, not just plain old joes. Some of us are actual researchers with
access to much better materials.
Post by w***@comcast.net
elite. I'm LN because that's the only position that supports what really
happened. A vast ever-growing web of conspriacy isn't going to build you a
solid place to land in this madness. If the conspirators have
super-natural powers to create and manipulate all that the evidence, you
are going to be chasing these tiny little shadows for your whole life.
You are a WC defender because you want to support the government no
matter what crimes the commit.
Post by w***@comcast.net
Actually you guys are all way smarter than me about the individual facts
of the case. You can argue me in circles for weeks without ever repeating
a lick.
But in the end, I dont' have any more or less power than you. It just
happened. We can't change it and nobody buy LHO made it happen. And I am
not in the Ruling Elite. Just ask the loan officer at my bank!
tomnln
2009-04-08 22:55:12 UTC
Permalink
BOTTOM POST;
Post by w***@comcast.net
Post by Anthony Marsh
So, you see yourself as one of the ruling elite smarter than the
.>>unwashed masses. Guess that makes you feel pretty good.
Ah ha! This is the essence of these threads. The discussion of bullett
entry angles and wounds is really just a screen for attempts to assign
blame or assert personal control to a group of people who have no power to
change the past and no power to change the perception of the folks who
think rationally about the events.
A man was killed by an isane man in chaotic circumstances. The Ruling
Elite didn't do it, the CIA didn't do it, the Mob didn't do it. A nutty
guy did it and we had no power to stop him.
It is natural for people to feel disconnected during chaotic events. If an
evil group can be isolated and shown to be the villian, the folks who feel
no power can suddenly grab power to assail the imagined source of their
anger...."The Ruling Eilite" or " The Media".
But here we are, all just plain old joes with access to the same old musty
pictures and scratched films. I'm not an LN because I belong to a ruling
elite. I'm LN because that's the only position that supports what really
happened. A vast ever-growing web of conspriacy isn't going to build you a
solid place to land in this madness. If the conspirators have
super-natural powers to create and manipulate all that the evidence, you
are going to be chasing these tiny little shadows for your whole life.
Actually you guys are all way smarter than me about the individual facts
of the case. You can argue me in circles for weeks without ever repeating
a lick.
But in the end, I dont' have any more or less power than you. It just
happened. We can't change it and nobody buy LHO made it happen. And I am
not in the Ruling Elite. Just ask the loan officer at my bank!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Country would that bank be in?

In the U. S. A., guilt/innosence are determined by that same
evidence/testimony you admittedly have no knowledge of.

SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
jblubaugh
2009-04-05 04:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
It must feel strange to be in such a minority when it comes to believing
in the single bullet theory. That theory was a hoax that became necessary
when it was discovered that there were three shots (so they thought) and
one missed completely. Do you still believe in the tooth fairy too? Watch
out for the Easter Bunny next week.

JB
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-05 19:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by jblubaugh
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
It must feel strange to be in such a minority when it comes to believing
in the single bullet theory. That theory was a hoax that became necessary
when it was discovered that there were three shots (so they thought) and
one missed completely. Do you still believe in the tooth fairy too? Watch
out for the Easter Bunny next week.
JB
The miss was not the problem. The problem was Kennedy and Connally being
hit too closely together for one gunman.
bigdog
2009-04-06 04:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by jblubaugh
It must feel strange to be in such a minority when it comes to believing
in the single bullet theory. That theory was a hoax that became necessary
when it was discovered that there were three shots (so they thought) and
one missed completely. Do you still believe in the tooth fairy too? Watch
out for the Easter Bunny next week.
JB- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
m***@yahoo.com
2009-04-07 00:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
If we dismiss witness testimony as unreliable, and focus solely on visual
evidence, then I should ask if you believe the Altgens photo that
corresponds to circa Z255 shows windshield damage? Your explanation of the
SBT does not allow for that windshield to exhibit damage at that point,
unless you can demonstrate a missed shot.

For example, let's assume that the bolt action rifle could be fired,
reloaded, and fired again in 2 seconds (a slightly conservative estimate).
That corresponds to at least 36 Z-frames. You stated in your first post
that a first shot was fired at Z221. Adding 36 frames equals Z257. If JFK
and JBC had already been wounded by a shot at Z221, then this forces an
explanation of a missed shot somewhere between Z257 (or Z255 allowing for
possible error), as well as Z277 (313 minus 36 = 277). Again, these are
conservative timing estimates. The timing is reduced if we accept the 2.3
second recycle time of the MC rifle, as well as the 18.3 fps of Zapruder's
camera. I don't see visual evidence in the Z-film of a missed shot fired
between 255 and 277. Respectfully,

~Mark
yeuhd
2009-04-07 02:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
Strawman argument. Nowhere above does bigdog say that "the first shot"
hit Connally. He says "the first shot which struck JFK" also hit
Connally.
bigdog
2009-04-07 04:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
If we dismiss witness testimony as unreliable, and focus solely on visual
evidence, then I should ask if you believe the Altgens photo that
corresponds to circa Z255 shows windshield damage? Your explanation of the
SBT does not allow for that windshield to exhibit damage at that point,
unless you can demonstrate a missed shot.
It is my belief that the windshield was damaged by a fragment of the
bullet from the head shot.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
For example, let's assume that the bolt action rifle could be fired,
reloaded, and fired again in 2 seconds (a slightly conservative estimate).
That corresponds to at least 36 Z-frames. You stated in your first post
that a first shot was fired at Z221.
No I did not. The single bullet was fired at or about Z221. That was the
second shot. Apparently you are still adhering to the myth that this was
the first shot. The first shot missed and it was fired at or about Z160.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Adding 36 frames equals Z257. If JFK
and JBC had already been wounded by a shot at Z221, then this forces an
explanation of a missed shot somewhere between Z257 (or Z255 allowing for
possible error), as well as Z277 (313 minus 36 = 277). Again, these are
conservative timing estimates. The timing is reduced if we accept the 2.3
second recycle time of the MC rifle, as well as the 18.3 fps of Zapruder's
camera. I don't see visual evidence in the Z-film of a missed shot fired
between 255 and 277. Respectfully,
I don't see any evidence of a shot at that time frame either. My scenario
doesn't require one. A first shot fired at Z160 would allow roughly 3.3
seconds for a second shot at Z221. That is also more than a half second
after JFK came into the clear from tree the limo passed under. That allows
92 frames, about 5 seconds, for Oswald to zero in on the head shot.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
~Mark
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-07 21:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
If we dismiss witness testimony as unreliable, and focus solely on visual
evidence, then I should ask if you believe the Altgens photo that
corresponds to circa Z255 shows windshield damage? Your explanation of the
SBT does not allow for that windshield to exhibit damage at that point,
unless you can demonstrate a missed shot.
It is my belief that the windshield was damaged by a fragment of the
bullet from the head shot.
OK. Then you have the bullet breaking up while inside the head.
That means multiple exits.
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
For example, let's assume that the bolt action rifle could be fired,
reloaded, and fired again in 2 seconds (a slightly conservative estimate).
That corresponds to at least 36 Z-frames. You stated in your first post
that a first shot was fired at Z221.
No I did not. The single bullet was fired at or about Z221. That was the
second shot. Apparently you are still adhering to the myth that this was
the first shot. The first shot missed and it was fired at or about Z160.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Adding 36 frames equals Z257. If JFK
and JBC had already been wounded by a shot at Z221, then this forces an
explanation of a missed shot somewhere between Z257 (or Z255 allowing for
possible error), as well as Z277 (313 minus 36 = 277). Again, these are
conservative timing estimates. The timing is reduced if we accept the 2.3
second recycle time of the MC rifle, as well as the 18.3 fps of Zapruder's
camera. I don't see visual evidence in the Z-film of a missed shot fired
between 255 and 277. Respectfully,
I don't see any evidence of a shot at that time frame either. My scenario
doesn't require one. A first shot fired at Z160 would allow roughly 3.3
seconds for a second shot at Z221. That is also more than a half second
after JFK came into the clear from tree the limo passed under. That allows
92 frames, about 5 seconds, for Oswald to zero in on the head shot.
As I said before every WC defender has his own SBT.
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
~Mark
bigdog
2009-04-08 03:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
If know if you did that, you would be serving up batting practice. I'm
going all in on this one. Do you want to call or fold? It's your move.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
If we dismiss witness testimony as unreliable, and focus solely on visual
evidence, then I should ask if you believe the Altgens photo that
corresponds to circa Z255 shows windshield damage? Your explanation of the
SBT does not allow for that windshield to exhibit damage at that point,
unless you can demonstrate a missed shot.
It is my belief that the windshield was damaged by a fragment of the
bullet from the head shot.
OK. Then you have the bullet breaking up while inside the head.
That means multiple exits.
Multiple small exits or one large one. I know which one my money is
on.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
For example, let's assume that the bolt action rifle could be fired,
reloaded, and fired again in 2 seconds (a slightly conservative estimate).
That corresponds to at least 36 Z-frames. You stated in your first post
that a first shot was fired at Z221.
No I did not. The single bullet was fired at or about Z221. That was the
second shot. Apparently you are still adhering to the myth that this was
the first shot. The first shot missed and it was fired at or about Z160.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Adding 36 frames equals Z257. If JFK
and JBC had already been wounded by a shot at Z221, then this forces an
explanation of a missed shot somewhere between Z257 (or Z255 allowing for
possible error), as well as Z277 (313 minus 36 = 277). Again, these are
conservative timing estimates. The timing is reduced if we accept the 2.3
second recycle time of the MC rifle, as well as the 18.3 fps of Zapruder's
camera. I don't see visual evidence in the Z-film of a missed shot fired
between 255 and 277. Respectfully,
I don't see any evidence of a shot at that time frame either. My scenario
doesn't require one. A first shot fired at Z160 would allow roughly 3.3
seconds for a second shot at Z221. That is also more than a half second
after JFK came into the clear from tree the limo passed under. That allows
92 frames, about 5 seconds, for Oswald to zero in on the head shot.
As I said before every WC defender has his own SBT.
I'm sure there are some LN dissenters to the scenario I have outlined, but
I would bet that there would be a consensus for a timing of the shots very
close to what I have stated. It would be presumptuous of me to call this
my SBT theory. It is based on some outstanding work by others which I find
extremely convincing.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-08 22:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Post by bigdog
If know if you did that, you would be serving up batting practice. I'm
going all in on this one. Do you want to call or fold? It's your move.
You can't even make the ante.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
If we dismiss witness testimony as unreliable, and focus solely on visual
evidence, then I should ask if you believe the Altgens photo that
corresponds to circa Z255 shows windshield damage? Your explanation of the
SBT does not allow for that windshield to exhibit damage at that point,
unless you can demonstrate a missed shot.
It is my belief that the windshield was damaged by a fragment of the
bullet from the head shot.
OK. Then you have the bullet breaking up while inside the head.
That means multiple exits.
Multiple small exits or one large one. I know which one my money is
on.
If the bullet breaks up inside the head there will be multiple exits.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
For example, let's assume that the bolt action rifle could be fired,
reloaded, and fired again in 2 seconds (a slightly conservative estimate).
That corresponds to at least 36 Z-frames. You stated in your first post
that a first shot was fired at Z221.
No I did not. The single bullet was fired at or about Z221. That was the
second shot. Apparently you are still adhering to the myth that this was
the first shot. The first shot missed and it was fired at or about Z160.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Adding 36 frames equals Z257. If JFK
and JBC had already been wounded by a shot at Z221, then this forces an
explanation of a missed shot somewhere between Z257 (or Z255 allowing for
possible error), as well as Z277 (313 minus 36 = 277). Again, these are
conservative timing estimates. The timing is reduced if we accept the 2.3
second recycle time of the MC rifle, as well as the 18.3 fps of Zapruder's
camera. I don't see visual evidence in the Z-film of a missed shot fired
between 255 and 277. Respectfully,
I don't see any evidence of a shot at that time frame either. My scenario
doesn't require one. A first shot fired at Z160 would allow roughly 3.3
seconds for a second shot at Z221. That is also more than a half second
after JFK came into the clear from tree the limo passed under. That allows
92 frames, about 5 seconds, for Oswald to zero in on the head shot.
As I said before every WC defender has his own SBT.
I'm sure there are some LN dissenters to the scenario I have outlined, but
I would bet that there would be a consensus for a timing of the shots very
close to what I have stated. It would be presumptuous of me to call this
my SBT theory. It is based on some outstanding work by others which I find
extremely convincing.
You and maybe 2 or 3 others are the only ones saying 221.
Most now say 224.
bigdog
2009-04-09 03:54:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being struck at
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations. Since the
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208, but that
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that scenario is
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound. Z224 is
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the frame even
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know you
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a bullet
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim the
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
If know if you did that, you would be serving up batting practice. I'm
going all in on this one. Do you want to call or fold? It's your move.
You can't even make the ante.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
If we dismiss witness testimony as unreliable, and focus solely on visual
evidence, then I should ask if you believe the Altgens photo that
corresponds to circa Z255 shows windshield damage? Your explanation of the
SBT does not allow for that windshield to exhibit damage at that point,
unless you can demonstrate a missed shot.
It is my belief that the windshield was damaged by a fragment of the
bullet from the head shot.
OK. Then you have the bullet breaking up while inside the head.
That means multiple exits.
Multiple small exits or one large one. I know which one my money is
on.
If the bullet breaks up inside the head there will be multiple exits.
If the skull exploded, which we can see that it did, those fragments could
all have exited through the same large blowout hole.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
For example, let's assume that the bolt action rifle could be fired,
reloaded, and fired again in 2 seconds (a slightly conservative estimate).
That corresponds to at least 36 Z-frames. You stated in your first post
that a first shot was fired at Z221.
No I did not. The single bullet was fired at or about Z221. That was the
second shot. Apparently you are still adhering to the myth that this was
the first shot. The first shot missed and it was fired at or about Z160.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Adding 36 frames equals Z257. If JFK
and JBC had already been wounded by a shot at Z221, then this forces an
explanation of a missed shot somewhere between Z257 (or Z255 allowing for
possible error), as well as Z277 (313 minus 36 = 277). Again, these are
conservative timing estimates. The timing is reduced if we accept the 2.3
second recycle time of the MC rifle, as well as the 18.3 fps of Zapruder's
camera. I don't see visual evidence in the Z-film of a missed shot fired
between 255 and 277. Respectfully,
I don't see any evidence of a shot at that time frame either. My scenario
doesn't require one. A first shot fired at Z160 would allow roughly 3.3
seconds for a second shot at Z221. That is also more than a half second
after JFK came into the clear from tree the limo passed under. That allows
92 frames, about 5 seconds, for Oswald to zero in on the head shot.
As I said before every WC defender has his own SBT.
I'm sure there are some LN dissenters to the scenario I have outlined, but
I would bet that there would be a consensus for a timing of the shots very
close to what I have stated. It would be presumptuous of me to call this
my SBT theory. It is based on some outstanding work by others which I find
extremely convincing.
You and maybe 2 or 3 others are the only ones saying 221.
Most now say 224.- Hide quoted text -
Myers says Z223. My best quess is Z221-Z222. The Z-film doesn't provide
enough clues to be more specific than that. The head shot at Z313 is
obvious. There is nothing in the Z-film that is that definitive regarding
the first strike. We are quibbling over 1 or 2 eighteenths of a second.
Hardly a major disagreement, especially given the limits of the data
available.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-10 00:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being struck at
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations. Since the
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208, but that
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that scenario is
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.

As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound. Z224 is
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the frame even
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know you
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a bullet
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
If know if you did that, you would be serving up batting practice. I'm
going all in on this one. Do you want to call or fold? It's your move.
You can't even make the ante.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
If we dismiss witness testimony as unreliable, and focus solely on visual
evidence, then I should ask if you believe the Altgens photo that
corresponds to circa Z255 shows windshield damage? Your explanation of the
SBT does not allow for that windshield to exhibit damage at that point,
unless you can demonstrate a missed shot.
It is my belief that the windshield was damaged by a fragment of the
bullet from the head shot.
OK. Then you have the bullet breaking up while inside the head.
That means multiple exits.
Multiple small exits or one large one. I know which one my money is
on.
If the bullet breaks up inside the head there will be multiple exits.
If the skull exploded, which we can see that it did, those fragments could
all have exited through the same large blowout hole.
Sure, but you still have diverging fragments.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
For example, let's assume that the bolt action rifle could be fired,
reloaded, and fired again in 2 seconds (a slightly conservative estimate).
That corresponds to at least 36 Z-frames. You stated in your first post
that a first shot was fired at Z221.
No I did not. The single bullet was fired at or about Z221. That was the
second shot. Apparently you are still adhering to the myth that this was
the first shot. The first shot missed and it was fired at or about Z160.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Adding 36 frames equals Z257. If JFK
and JBC had already been wounded by a shot at Z221, then this forces an
explanation of a missed shot somewhere between Z257 (or Z255 allowing for
possible error), as well as Z277 (313 minus 36 = 277). Again, these are
conservative timing estimates. The timing is reduced if we accept the 2.3
second recycle time of the MC rifle, as well as the 18.3 fps of Zapruder's
camera. I don't see visual evidence in the Z-film of a missed shot fired
between 255 and 277. Respectfully,
I don't see any evidence of a shot at that time frame either. My scenario
doesn't require one. A first shot fired at Z160 would allow roughly 3.3
seconds for a second shot at Z221. That is also more than a half second
after JFK came into the clear from tree the limo passed under. That allows
92 frames, about 5 seconds, for Oswald to zero in on the head shot.
As I said before every WC defender has his own SBT.
I'm sure there are some LN dissenters to the scenario I have outlined, but
I would bet that there would be a consensus for a timing of the shots very
close to what I have stated. It would be presumptuous of me to call this
my SBT theory. It is based on some outstanding work by others which I find
extremely convincing.
You and maybe 2 or 3 others are the only ones saying 221.
Most now say 224.- Hide quoted text -
Myers says Z223. My best quess is Z221-Z222. The Z-film doesn't provide
enough clues to be more specific than that. The head shot at Z313 is
obvious. There is nothing in the Z-film that is that definitive regarding
the first strike. We are quibbling over 1 or 2 eighteenths of a second.
Hardly a major disagreement, especially given the limits of the data
available.
bigdog
2009-04-10 05:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for.  OK, you have JFK being struck at
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations. Since the
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208, but that
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that scenario is
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205 is
the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve as he
was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin level
and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we cannot say
for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he began to
raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at Z224, the
first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can see that
his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to chin level.
Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's right hand
was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames Z224 and
beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your figures of a
strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a second later,
JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward at Z216. Since
it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it have to have been
at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow lowering we saw up to
Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this work, the slow lowering
would have to continue longer than you postulate and the sudden upward
movement would have to have begun later.
Post by Anthony Marsh
As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound. Z224 is
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the frame even
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know you
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a bullet
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down movement
of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is both the
most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the Z-film for
when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of it was made
in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most ardent LNs when
arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely noticeable when
the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the jacket bulge as
the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip which followed
immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a bullet strike to
the wrist, is even more probative.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was the
only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would be
extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was hit,
when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
tomnln
2009-04-11 03:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being struck at
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations. Since the
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208, but that
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that scenario is
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205 is
the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve as he
was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin level
and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we cannot say
for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he began to
raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at Z224, the
first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can see that
his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to chin level.
Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's right hand
was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames Z224 and
beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your figures of a
strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a second later,
JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward at Z216. Since
it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it have to have been
at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow lowering we saw up to
Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this work, the slow lowering
would have to continue longer than you postulate and the sudden upward
movement would have to have begun later.
Post by Anthony Marsh
As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound. Z224 is
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the frame even
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know you
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a bullet
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down movement
of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is both the
most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the Z-film for
when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of it was made
in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most ardent LNs when
arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely noticeable when
the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the jacket bulge as
the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip which followed
immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a bullet strike to
the wrist, is even more probative.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was the
only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would be
extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was hit,
when he was hit, and where these shots came from.



JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him
bigdog
2009-04-12 03:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If
you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly
incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being struck at
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations. Since the
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208, but that
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that scenario is
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205 is
the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve as he
was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin level
and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we cannot say
for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he began to
raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at Z224, the
first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can see that
his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to chin level.
Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's right hand
was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames Z224 and
beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your figures of a
strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a second later,
JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward at Z216. Since
it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it have to have been
at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow lowering we saw up to
Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this work, the slow lowering
would have to continue longer than you postulate and the sudden upward
movement would have to have begun later.
Post by Anthony Marsh
As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound. Z224 is
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the frame even
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know you
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a bullet
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down movement
of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is both the
most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the Z-film for
when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of it was made
in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most ardent LNs when
arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely noticeable when
the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the jacket bulge as
the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip which followed
immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a bullet strike to
the wrist, is even more probative.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was the
only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would be
extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was hit,
when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him- Hide quoted text -
As you have been told many times before, Dr. Shaw had no expertise in the
area of forensics. His skill was in patching gunshot victims up, not in
determining what caused the wounds. The fact that he couldn't tell whether
it was 2 shots or 3 demonstrates that he was guessing about the number of
shots just as he was guessing about what frame in the Z-film JBC was shot.
JBC only felt one gunshot. As is typical, you reach for the worst
available evidence and ignore the best. This is why the CT movement goes
nowhere. You guys are always barking up the wrong tree.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-13 01:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being struck at
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations. Since the
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208, but that
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that scenario is
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205 is
the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve as he
was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin level
and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we cannot say
for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he began to
raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at Z224, the
first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can see that
his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to chin level.
Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's right hand
was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames Z224 and
beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your figures of a
strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a second later,
JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward at Z216. Since
it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it have to have been
at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow lowering we saw up to
Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this work, the slow lowering
would have to continue longer than you postulate and the sudden upward
movement would have to have begun later.
Post by Anthony Marsh
As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound. Z224 is
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the frame even
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know you
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a bullet
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down movement
of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is both the
most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the Z-film for
when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of it was made
in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most ardent LNs when
arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely noticeable when
the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the jacket bulge as
the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip which followed
immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a bullet strike to
the wrist, is even more probative.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was the
only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would be
extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was hit,
when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him- Hide quoted text -
As you have been told many times before, Dr. Shaw had no expertise in the
area of forensics. His skill was in patching gunshot victims up, not in
determining what caused the wounds. The fact that he couldn't tell whether
it was 2 shots or 3 demonstrates that he was guessing about the number of
shots just as he was guessing about what frame in the Z-film JBC was shot.
JBC only felt one gunshot. As is typical, you reach for the worst
available evidence and ignore the best. This is why the CT movement goes
nowhere. You guys are always barking up the wrong tree.
Not just Shaw. Most of the doctors present in the WC meeting agreed with
the Humes SBT which had Connally hit by two bullets.
bigdog
2009-04-14 03:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If
you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly
incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being struck at
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations. Since the
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208, but that
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that scenario is
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205 is
the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve as he
was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin level
and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we cannot say
for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he began to
raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at Z224, the
first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can see that
his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to chin level.
Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's right hand
was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames Z224 and
beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your figures of a
strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a second later,
JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward at Z216. Since
it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it have to have been
at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow lowering we saw up to
Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this work, the slow lowering
would have to continue longer than you postulate and the sudden upward
movement would have to have begun later.
Post by Anthony Marsh
As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound. Z224 is
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the frame even
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know you
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a bullet
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down movement
of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is both the
most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the Z-film for
when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of it was made
in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most ardent LNs when
arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely noticeable when
the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the jacket bulge as
the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip which followed
immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a bullet strike to
the wrist, is even more probative.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was the
only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would be
extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was hit,
when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him- Hide quoted text -
As you have been told many times before, Dr. Shaw had no expertise in the
area of forensics. His skill was in patching gunshot victims up, not in
determining what caused the wounds. The fact that he couldn't tell whether
it was 2 shots or 3 demonstrates that he was guessing about the number of
shots just as he was guessing about what frame in the Z-film JBC was shot.
JBC only felt one gunshot. As is typical, you reach for the worst
available evidence and ignore the best. This is why the CT movement goes
nowhere. You guys are always barking up the wrong tree.
Not just Shaw. Most of the doctors present in the WC meeting agreed with
the Humes SBT which had Connally hit by two bullets.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why does anything Humes think about JBC or the SBT matter one bit? He
saw one of the two victims. He only had first had knowledge about the
wounds to JFK. Why should we put any stock in anything he had to say
about how JBC was wounded?
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-15 01:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If
you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly
incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being struck at
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations. Since the
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208, but that
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that scenario is
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205 is
the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve as he
was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin level
and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we cannot say
for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he began to
raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at Z224, the
first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can see that
his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to chin level.
Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's right hand
was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames Z224 and
beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your figures of a
strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a second later,
JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward at Z216. Since
it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it have to have been
at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow lowering we saw up to
Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this work, the slow lowering
would have to continue longer than you postulate and the sudden upward
movement would have to have begun later.
Post by Anthony Marsh
As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound. Z224 is
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the frame even
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know you
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a bullet
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down movement
of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is both the
most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the Z-film for
when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of it was made
in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most ardent LNs when
arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely noticeable when
the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the jacket bulge as
the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip which followed
immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a bullet strike to
the wrist, is even more probative.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was the
only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would be
extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was hit,
when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him- Hide quoted text -
As you have been told many times before, Dr. Shaw had no expertise in the
area of forensics. His skill was in patching gunshot victims up, not in
determining what caused the wounds. The fact that he couldn't tell whether
it was 2 shots or 3 demonstrates that he was guessing about the number of
shots just as he was guessing about what frame in the Z-film JBC was shot.
JBC only felt one gunshot. As is typical, you reach for the worst
available evidence and ignore the best. This is why the CT movement goes
nowhere. You guys are always barking up the wrong tree.
Not just Shaw. Most of the doctors present in the WC meeting agreed with
the Humes SBT which had Connally hit by two bullets.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why does anything Humes think about JBC or the SBT matter one bit? He
saw one of the two victims. He only had first had knowledge about the
wounds to JFK. Why should we put any stock in anything he had to say
about how JBC was wounded?
Humes LED the discussion of ALL the doctors in proposing his SBT.
bigdog
2009-04-15 03:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do
you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from
the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the
original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If
you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first
shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly
incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC. It
did
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC
concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the CT
and LN
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is why
JBC
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had been
hit by
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know is
that
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had already been
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming that
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being struck at
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations. Since the
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208, but that
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that scenario is
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205 is
the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve as he
was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin level
and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we cannot say
for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he began to
raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at Z224, the
first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can see that
his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to chin level.
Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's right hand
was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames Z224 and
beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your figures of a
strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a second later,
JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward at Z216. Since
it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it have to have been
at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow lowering we saw up to
Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this work, the slow lowering
would have to continue longer than you postulate and the sudden upward
movement would have to have begun later.
Post by Anthony Marsh
As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound. Z224 is
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the frame even
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know you
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a bullet
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down movement
of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is both the
most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the Z-film for
when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of it was made
in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most ardent LNs when
arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely noticeable when
the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the jacket bulge as
the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip which followed
immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a bullet strike to
the wrist, is even more probative.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was the
only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would be
extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was hit,
when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him- Hide quoted text -
As you have been told many times before, Dr. Shaw had no expertise in the
area of forensics. His skill was in patching gunshot victims up, not in
determining what caused the wounds. The fact that he couldn't tell whether
it was 2 shots or 3 demonstrates that he was guessing about the number of
shots just as he was guessing about what frame in the Z-film JBC was shot.
JBC only felt one gunshot. As is typical, you reach for the worst
available evidence and ignore the best. This is why the CT movement goes
nowhere. You guys are always barking up the wrong tree.
Not just Shaw. Most of the doctors present in the WC meeting agreed with
the Humes SBT which had Connally hit by two bullets.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why does anything Humes think about JBC or the SBT matter one bit? He
saw one of the two victims. He only had first had knowledge about the
wounds to JFK. Why should we put any stock in anything he had to say
about how JBC was wounded?
Humes LED the discussion of ALL the doctors in proposing his SBT.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So he led the discussion. He still had no first hand knowledge of
JBC's wound. No wonder he got it wrong.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-12 03:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How
do >>>>>>> you
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus
from >>>>>>> the
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT.
If >>>>>> you are
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the
first >>>>>> shot,
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC.
It >>>>> did
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the
CT >>>>> and LN
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is
why >>>>> JBC
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had
been >>>>> hit by
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know
is >>>>> that
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had
already >>>> been
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe
JFK
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming
that
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being
struck at
Post by bigdog
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations.
Since > the
Post by bigdog
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208,
but > that
Post by bigdog
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that
scenario > is
Post by bigdog
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205
is the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve
as he was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin
level and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we
cannot say for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he
began to raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at
Z224, the first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can
see that his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to
chin level. Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's
right hand was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames
Z224 and beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your
figures of a strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a
second later, JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward
at Z216. Since it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it
have to have been at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Post by bigdog
lowering we saw up to Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this
work, the slow lowering would have to continue longer than you postulate
and the sudden upward movement would have to have begun later.
No one said he had to lower his arm all the way.
Post by bigdog
As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound.
Z224 > is
Post by bigdog
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the
frame > even
Post by bigdog
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
His hands are on their way towards his chin. His arms were already up.
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know
you
Post by bigdog
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a
bullet
Post by bigdog
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim
the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down
movement of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is
A rapid movement which only YOU can see. Somewhat like the conspiracy
people SEEING Greer's rapid turn to look back. Ain't there.
Post by bigdog
both the most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the
Z-film for when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of
it was made in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most
ardent LNs when arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely
noticeable when the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the
jacket bulge as the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip
which followed immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a
bullet strike to the wrist, is even more probative.
Why don't you try to make a name for yourself and claim the Stetson
movement alone proved the exact frame when Connally was hit? Maybe
because YOU think he was hit well before we see the Stetson.
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was
the only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would
Wrong again. Read my article. I also have Connally's wrist hit at Z-330.
Post by bigdog
be extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was
hit, when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
Duh, which means you didn't notice the first 72,000 times I mentioned it.
Post by bigdog
JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him
Sure, could be. Fun to speculate, isn't it?
Humes thought two bullets hit Connally.
curtjester1
2009-04-12 21:00:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How
do >>>>>>> you
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus
from >>>>>>> the
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT.
If >>>>>> you are
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the
first >>>>>> shot,
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly
incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC.
It >>>>> did
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the
CT >>>>> and LN
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is
why >>>>> JBC
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had
been >>>>> hit by
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know
is >>>>> that
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had
already >>>> been
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe
JFK
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming
that
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being
struck at
Post by bigdog
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations.
Since > the
Post by bigdog
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208,
but > that
Post by bigdog
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that
scenario > is
Post by bigdog
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205
is the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve
as he was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin
level and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we
cannot say for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he
began to raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at
Z224, the first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can
see that his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to
chin level. Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's
right hand was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames
Z224 and beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your
figures of a strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a
second later, JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward
at Z216. Since it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it
have to have been at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Post by bigdog
lowering we saw up to Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this
work, the slow lowering would have to continue longer than you postulate
and the sudden upward movement would have to have begun later.
No one said he had to lower his arm all the way.
Post by bigdog
As far as absolutes go look at the Taiwan assassination attempt. The
President did not react to being hit even though we can see the bloody
wound for several minutes.
Post by bigdog
hit, an amazingly slow reaction time for such a devastating wound.
Z224 > is
Post by bigdog
a key frame because we can actually see JFK's right fist in the
frame > even
Post by bigdog
though we can't see much else of him. Comparing that position with Z225
and Z226, we can see that JFK is in the process of bring his fists in
front of his throat beginning at that frame. But this isn't the biggest
But his arms are already up.
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
His hands are on their way towards his chin. His arms were already up.
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know
you
Post by bigdog
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a
bullet
Post by bigdog
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim
the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down
movement of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is
A rapid movement which only YOU can see. Somewhat like the conspiracy
people SEEING Greer's rapid turn to look back. Ain't there.
You can scienfically time it. It's impossible, or very highly
improbable.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
both the most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the
Z-film for when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of
it was made in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most
ardent LNs when arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely
noticeable when the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the
jacket bulge as the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip
which followed immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a
bullet strike to the wrist, is even more probative.
Why don't you try to make a name for yourself and claim the Stetson
movement alone proved the exact frame when Connally was hit? Maybe
because YOU think he was hit well before we see the Stetson.
Who cares when Connally was hit, when JFK was hit way earlier? Willis
said he snapped at the flinch of the shot, and the Couch film shows
white around the spot of the back wound.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was
the only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would
Wrong again. Read my article. I also have Connally's wrist hit at Z-330.
If we have to judge articles alone we would have to believe the
Zapruder film wasn't faked. If you read Tom's sight you would see a
doctor's report of an entrance chest would of Connally's.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
be extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was
hit, when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
Duh, which means you didn't notice the first 72,000 times I mentioned it.
Post by bigdog
JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him
Sure, could be. Fun to speculate, isn't it?
Humes thought two bullets hit Connally.
Sure, speculating is fun and can show that opinions can't always be so
narrow. Some have seen what looked liked 6-8 wounds in JBC and JFK,
and saw the limo stop for 3-4 seconds, and said they were seeing the
earliest know film showing of the Z film.

CJ
Post by Anthony Marsh
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
bigdog
2009-04-12 21:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How
do >>>>>>> you
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus
from >>>>>>> the
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT.
If >>>>>> you are
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the
first >>>>>> shot,
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly
incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC.
It >>>>> did
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the
CT >>>>> and LN
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is
why >>>>> JBC
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had
been >>>>> hit by
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know
is >>>>> that
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had
already >>>> been
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe
JFK
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming
that
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being
struck at
Post by bigdog
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations.
Since > the
Post by bigdog
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208,
but > that
Post by bigdog
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that
scenario > is
Post by bigdog
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205
is the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve
as he was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin
level and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we
cannot say for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he
began to raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at
Z224, the first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can
see that his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to
chin level. Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's
right hand was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames
Z224 and beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your
figures of a strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a
second later, JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward
at Z216. Since it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it
have to have been at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
lowering we saw up to Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this
work, the slow lowering would have to continue longer than you postulate
and the sudden upward movement would have to have begun later.
No one said he had to lower his arm all the way.
Unless you want to argue that JFK continued to lower his arm after
your alleged shot at Z210, his arm could not have been any higher at
Z210 than it was at Z225 when his right fist was below his chin. Even
if you want to claim he lowered his right arm no lower than is seen st
Z225, than we would have to believe that he didn't begin raising his
arm again until Z226, almost one second after your Z210 shot. We would
also have to believe that from Z205 to Z210, he rapidly accelerated
the downward movement of the right arm to reach the level we next see
it at Z225. Sorry, this still does not compute. It's a square peg and
a round hole.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
His hands are on their way towards his chin. His arms were already up.
Yes, it is possible that his arms were at the same level when he was
hit as they were at Z225 and his upward movement began from there.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know
you
Post by bigdog
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a
bullet
Post by bigdog
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim
the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down
movement of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is
A rapid movement which only YOU can see. Somewhat like the conspiracy
people SEEING Greer's rapid turn to look back. Ain't there.
Oh, so now you can't see the up and down movement of JBC's right arm
from Z226 thru Z234. Are you saying you can't see his Stetson suddenly
raising up above the side of the car and then back down in a period of
a half a second or are you claiming it moved all by itself? Isn't it
hell when you are confronted with an inconvenient piece of evidence
that doesn't fit your theory.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
both the most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the
Z-film for when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of
it was made in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most
ardent LNs when arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely
noticeable when the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the
jacket bulge as the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip
which followed immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a
bullet strike to the wrist, is even more probative.
Why don't you try to make a name for yourself and claim the Stetson
movement alone proved the exact frame when Connally was hit? Maybe
because YOU think he was hit well before we see the Stetson.
Because it doesn't prove EXACTLY what frame he was hit. We can't say
for sure which frame it began moving upward at because it could have
started upward a frame or two before Z-226 but hadn't risen high
enough to become visible.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was
the only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would
Wrong again. Read my article. I also have Connally's wrist hit at Z-330.
That's amazing. You can't see JBC's up and down movement of his right
arm at Z226-Z234 but you are able to see something which indicates he
was shot in the wrist at Z330. Just what is this remarkable clue?

So let me see if I understand you. You have JFK shot in the back at
Z210 and in the head at Z313. JBC was shot through the torso at Z230
and through the wrist at Z330. I count 4 shots. Do you have more? Just
where do you suppose these magic bullets went?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
be extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was
hit, when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
Duh, which means you didn't notice the first 72,000 times I mentioned it.
Believe it or not, Tony, I have a life and the highlight of my day is
not reading your latest contributions to aaj. I believe you are the
most prolific poster on this forum. Do you really believe me or anyone
else actually reads everything you write? When I respond to someone
else, I have no problem repeating arguments I have made in the past. I
do this for the sake of clarity and continuity of the thread. Why do
you expect everyone to go hunting for what you have written before. At
the very least, you could provide a link to your previous posts. You
know better than anyone where they are or what to google for. If you
have something worth saying, post it, repost it, or provide a link to
it. If you can't make the effort to do that, don't expect anyone else
to care what you have to say about any given subject.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him
Sure, could be. Fun to speculate, isn't it?
Humes thought two bullets hit Connally.
I didn't know Humes examined Connally.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-14 03:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How
do>>>>>>> you
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus
from>>>>>>> the
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT.
If>>>>>> you are
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the
first>>>>>> shot,
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by m***@yahoo.com
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly
incorrect?
No they were absolutely correct. The first shot did not hit JBC.
It>>>>> did
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
not hit JFK either. Somehow, a myth got perpetrated that the WC concluded
the second shot was the missed shot and many folks in both the
CT>>>>> and LN
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
camps accepted that myth, apparently even the Connallys. That is
why>>>>> JBC
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
steadfastly refused to accept the SBT because he knew he had
been>>>>> hit by
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the second shot. He was correct about that. What he didn't know
is>>>>> that
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
the second shot had hit JFK first.
Wrong. Connally had time to react and see that Kennedy had
already>>>> been
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
hit before he was hit.
I'm sure you are being deliberately vague when you make this
assertion. I'm betting you won't dare tell us when you you believe
JFK
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
Why do you continue to engage in these dishonest tactics? Claiming
that
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
I will never do something that I have already done hundreds of times.
Kennedy 210.
Connally 230.
Well, I am pleasantly surprised that you actually stepped up to the plate
and provided the specifics I asked for. OK, you have JFK being
struck at
Post by bigdog
Z210. Theoretically possible since this is the first frame that JFK was
actually in the clear from the tree according to WC recreations.
Since> the
Post by bigdog
bullet would need almost two frames to travel from the SN to the limo,
Oswald would have actually needed to fire the shot at about Z208,
but> that
Post by bigdog
is just a minor inconvenience. The biggest problem about that
scenario> is
Post by bigdog
it requires JFK to react to his wound about 3/4 of a second after being
It does not take JFK 3/4 of a second to react. I believe his arms reflexed
up as a reflex reaction to the nerve being struck, so that is about 1/3 of
a second. He had already been reacting before he emerges from behind the
sign. See Roger McCarthy's testimony.
Since I believe we both agree that JFK was behind the sign when hit, the
key to when he actually reacted is to focus on his right arm/hand. Z205
is the last frame we can clearly see the white cuff of his right sleeve
as he was slowly lowering it from a wave. If has come down to about chin
level and it is safe to assume that lowering continued although we
cannot say for certain how long that lasted or how low it got before he
began to raise his arms. We next see his right fist one second later at
Z224, the first glimpse we get of JFK emerging. In the next frame we can
see that his right fist is below his chin and at Z226, it is back up to
chin level. Looking at the frames Z205 and earlier we can see that JFK's
right hand was slowly coming down during this time. Looking at frames
Z224 and beyond, his right hand is moving rapidly upward. Taking your
figures of a strike at Z210 and a reaction a reflexive reaction 1/3 of a
second later, JFK would have begun raising his right hand rapidly upward
at Z216. Since it was still below chin level at Z224, how low would it
have to have been at Z216. That is simply inconsistent with the slow
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
lowering we saw up to Z205. This simply does not compute. To make this
work, the slow lowering would have to continue longer than you postulate
and the sudden upward movement would have to have begun later.
No one said he had to lower his arm all the way.
Unless you want to argue that JFK continued to lower his arm after
your alleged shot at Z210, his arm could not have been any higher at
Z210 than it was at Z225 when his right fist was below his chin. Even
if you want to claim he lowered his right arm no lower than is seen st
Z225, than we would have to believe that he didn't begin raising his
arm again until Z226, almost one second after your Z210 shot. We would
also have to believe that from Z205 to Z210, he rapidly accelerated
the downward movement of the right arm to reach the level we next see
it at Z225. Sorry, this still does not compute. It's a square peg and
a round hole.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
His arms were on their way up. Compare Z225 and Z226.
His hands are on their way towards his chin. His arms were already up.
Yes, it is possible that his arms were at the same level when he was
hit as they were at Z225 and his upward movement began from there.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
problem with your scenario. It's placing JBC's wound at Z230. I know
you
Post by bigdog
don't accept the bulge/flip of his lapel at Z224 as evidence of a
bullet
Post by bigdog
strike. Since we disagree on that one, let's just set that aside for now.
Just how do you account for the rapid up and down motion of JBC's right
arm which becomes evident at Z226 when we see the Stetson, held in his
right hand, first appear above the side of the car. That up-and-down
movement lasts just 9 frames, about a half a second. Since it began at
least a quarter second before you have JBC being hit, to what do you
attribute this odd movement by his right arm. At Z230 when you claim
the
Maybe just the turning around in the seat.
JBC was making a gradual turn in his seat, rotating right beginning at
Z164 and he was in the process of rotating back to his left when we see
him at Z221. It makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that this gradual
rotation of the torso could have triggered the rapid up and down
movement of JBC's right arm beginning at Z226. To me, that arm flip is
A rapid movement which only YOU can see. Somewhat like the conspiracy
people SEEING Greer's rapid turn to look back. Ain't there.
Oh, so now you can't see the up and down movement of JBC's right arm
from Z226 thru Z234. Are you saying you can't see his Stetson suddenly
raising up above the side of the car and then back down in a period of
a half a second or are you claiming it moved all by itself? Isn't it
hell when you are confronted with an inconvenient piece of evidence
that doesn't fit your theory.
I can't see everything that stems from your imagination. And I can see
things without assuming they could only be caused by a bullet.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
both the most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the
Z-film for when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of
it was made in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most
ardent LNs when arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely
noticeable when the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the
jacket bulge as the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip
which followed immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a
bullet strike to the wrist, is even more probative.
Why don't you try to make a name for yourself and claim the Stetson
movement alone proved the exact frame when Connally was hit? Maybe
because YOU think he was hit well before we see the Stetson.
Because it doesn't prove EXACTLY what frame he was hit. We can't say
for sure which frame it began moving upward at because it could have
started upward a frame or two before Z-226 but hadn't risen high
enough to become visible.
So your theory is designed with enough wiggle room to allow you to claim
any frame you guess at. How convenient.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
bullet hit JBC, the rim of the Stetson is even with JBC's chin and the
right hand/wrist holding that Stetson would be at or above the exit wound
in JBC's chest. So are you telling us that bullet was traveling on a level
or upward plane when it exited JBC's chest. Do I detect another Magic
Bullet Theory in the making?
I didn't say the same bullet which went through Connally's chest then
hit his wrist. As you point out the wrist was out of the line of
trajectory at Z-230.
When you said JBC was hit at Z230, I figured you were saying that was
the only frame he was hit at. At this point in the proceedings, it would
Wrong again. Read my article. I also have Connally's wrist hit at Z-330.
That's amazing. You can't see JBC's up and down movement of his right
arm at Z226-Z234 but you are able to see something which indicates he
was shot in the wrist at Z330. Just what is this remarkable clue?
Again, I never said that I SEE his wrist shot at Z-330. It comes from
the acoustical evidence.
Post by bigdog
So let me see if I understand you. You have JFK shot in the back at
Z210 and in the head at Z313. JBC was shot through the torso at Z230
and through the wrist at Z330. I count 4 shots. Do you have more? Just
where do you suppose these magic bullets went?
Yes, you also need a miss, before the shot which hit JFK.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
be extremely helpful if you would state how many times you think he was
hit, when he was hit, and where these shots came from.
Duh, which means you didn't notice the first 72,000 times I mentioned it.
Believe it or not, Tony, I have a life and the highlight of my day is
not reading your latest contributions to aaj. I believe you are the
most prolific poster on this forum. Do you really believe me or anyone
else actually reads everything you write? When I respond to someone
else, I have no problem repeating arguments I have made in the past. I
Why should I waste my time rewriting the same messages hundreds of times
just for some lazy wiseguy who can't pay attention?
Post by bigdog
do this for the sake of clarity and continuity of the thread. Why do
you expect everyone to go hunting for what you have written before. At
I often include a URL pointing to my articles, but you are afraid to
read them.
Post by bigdog
the very least, you could provide a link to your previous posts. You
know better than anyone where they are or what to google for. If you
have something worth saying, post it, repost it, or provide a link to
it. If you can't make the effort to do that, don't expect anyone else
to care what you have to say about any given subject.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
JBC's Dr said 2 or even 3 shots hit him
Sure, could be. Fun to speculate, isn't it?
Humes thought two bullets hit Connally.
I didn't know Humes examined Connally.
Never said he did. I said Humes proposed his own SBT. I have written
about this many times before and linked to the document.
bigdog
2009-04-14 23:59:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Oh, so now you can't see the up and down movement of JBC's right arm
from Z226 thru Z234. Are you saying you can't see his Stetson suddenly
raising up above the side of the car and then back down in a period of
a half a second or are you claiming it moved all by itself? Isn't it
hell when you are confronted with an inconvenient piece of evidence
that doesn't fit your theory.
I can't see everything that stems from your imagination. And I can see
things without assuming they could only be caused by a bullet.
Nice dodge. You refused to answer an inconvenient question and it is easy
to see why. If you said you couldn't see Connally's Stetson moving rapidly
up and down, you would look silly. If you said you did, you would be
admitting that JBC's right arm did suddenly flip up and down. So you chose
to answer with this sort of irrelevant doublespeak.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
both the most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the
Z-film for when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of
it was made in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most
ardent LNs when arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely
noticeable when the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the
jacket bulge as the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip
which followed immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a
bullet strike to the wrist, is even more probative.
Why don't you try to make a name for yourself and claim the Stetson
movement alone proved the exact frame when Connally was hit? Maybe
because YOU think he was hit well before we see the Stetson.
Because it doesn't prove EXACTLY what frame he was hit. We can't say
for sure which frame it began moving upward at because it could have
started upward a frame or two before Z-226 but hadn't risen high
enough to become visible.
So your theory is designed with enough wiggle room to allow you to claim
any frame you guess at. How convenient.
No, my theory recognizes that absolute precision in identifying the frame
the bullet struck is not possible with the information available. There is
no definitive event as there is for the headshot. We can't see precisely
when JFK began reacting to his wounds because he was hidden by the sign.
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
response times could be as much as three frames. I wish we could pinpoint
the exact from when the SB hit, but unless someone can find additional
clues, we will have to accept a very small window of frames.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-16 02:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Oh, so now you can't see the up and down movement of JBC's right arm
from Z226 thru Z234. Are you saying you can't see his Stetson suddenly
raising up above the side of the car and then back down in a period of
a half a second or are you claiming it moved all by itself? Isn't it
hell when you are confronted with an inconvenient piece of evidence
that doesn't fit your theory.
I can't see everything that stems from your imagination. And I can see
things without assuming they could only be caused by a bullet.
Nice dodge. You refused to answer an inconvenient question and it is easy
to see why. If you said you couldn't see Connally's Stetson moving rapidly
up and down, you would look silly. If you said you did, you would be
admitting that JBC's right arm did suddenly flip up and down. So you chose
to answer with this sort of irrelevant doublespeak.
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
both the most significant as well as the most overlooked clue in the
Z-film for when JBC was hit. Unless I have overlooked it, no mention of
it was made in the WCR and it is rarely even mentioned by the most
ardent LNs when arguing for the SBT. The motion is so rapid it is barely
noticeable when the Z-film is read at normal speed. Many LNs look at the
jacket bulge as the best clue of when the bullet hit. But that arm flip
which followed immediately and consistent of a reflexive response to a
bullet strike to the wrist, is even more probative.
Why don't you try to make a name for yourself and claim the Stetson
movement alone proved the exact frame when Connally was hit? Maybe
because YOU think he was hit well before we see the Stetson.
Because it doesn't prove EXACTLY what frame he was hit. We can't say
for sure which frame it began moving upward at because it could have
started upward a frame or two before Z-226 but hadn't risen high
enough to become visible.
So your theory is designed with enough wiggle room to allow you to claim
any frame you guess at. How convenient.
No, my theory recognizes that absolute precision in identifying the frame
the bullet struck is not possible with the information available. There is
no definitive event as there is for the headshot. We can't see precisely
when JFK began reacting to his wounds because he was hidden by the sign.
We can clearly see that he HAD already been hit when emerges from behind
the sign. Are you going to deny that? That means he was hit at least 4
frames earlier.
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Post by bigdog
response times could be as much as three frames. I wish we could pinpoint
the exact from when the SB hit, but unless someone can find additional
clues, we will have to accept a very small window of frames.
bigdog
2009-04-17 01:58:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-18 00:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.
bigdog
2009-04-20 01:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Different nerve, same principle. Reflexive responses happen very quickly.
The nerves and muscles respond directly to an external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain. You asked for a source and I gave you one.
Now if you have a source which indicates the nerves involved in JFK's back
wound or JBC's wrist wound would act significantly slower, we'd all be
just too happy to see it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Well, yes, when you are a CT you are free to imagine anything you want
without any evidence to support it. You are also free to ignore any and
all evidence which contradicts your pet theories. It is the reason CTs
have gotten nowhere in the past 45 years, but it is quite amusing to see
you all keep trying.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Don't be ridiculous. You're just playing games. It is absolutely absurd to
suggest that a lapel flip could be categorized as either a cognitive or
reflexive response. Is this really the best you can do?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.- Hide quoted text -
Right, Tony. You arbitrarily decided it was at Z330 just as you
arbitrarily decided JFK was first hit at Z210 and JBC was first hit at
Z230 in complete absence of any visual evidence for such while at the same
time you try to dismiss the very obvious response of JBC's right arm which
becomes evident in Z226. You are simply in denial. You should probably
heed the old adage, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".
pamela
2009-04-20 16:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Different nerve, same principle. Reflexive responses happen very quickly.
The nerves and muscles respond directly to an external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain. You asked for a source and I gave you one.
Now if you have a source which indicates the nerves involved in JFK's back
wound or JBC's wrist wound would act significantly slower, we'd all be
just too happy to see it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Well, yes, when you are a CT you are free to imagine anything you want
without any evidence to support it. You are also free to ignore any and
all evidence which contradicts your pet theories. It is the reason CTs
have gotten nowhere in the past 45 years, but it is quite amusing to see
you all keep trying.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Don't be ridiculous. You're just playing games. It is absolutely absurd to
suggest that a lapel flip could be categorized as either a cognitive or
reflexive response. Is this really the best you can do?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.- Hide quoted text -
Right, Tony. You arbitrarily decided it was at Z330 just as you
arbitrarily decided JFK was first hit at Z210 and JBC was first hit at
Z230 in complete absence of any visual evidence for such while at the same
time you try to dismiss the very obvious response of JBC's right arm which
becomes evident in Z226. You are simply in denial. You should probably
heed the old adage, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".
Actually, it was the WC that was in denial that the FBI Gemberling
Report claimed that there were three shots fired at the passengers of
the limo.
When they discovered that Tague had also been hit, meaning a fourth
shot was probably fired, they knew LHO could not have acted alone.
Therefore, they had to make things up in order to get to the
conclusion they needed. Their SB scenario was pragmatic and 'solved'
their real problem, which was evidence of conspiracy.
bigdog
2009-04-21 03:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by pamela
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Different nerve, same principle. Reflexive responses happen very quickly.
The nerves and muscles respond directly to an external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain. You asked for a source and I gave you one.
Now if you have a source which indicates the nerves involved in JFK's back
wound or JBC's wrist wound would act significantly slower, we'd all be
just too happy to see it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Well, yes, when you are a CT you are free to imagine anything you want
without any evidence to support it. You are also free to ignore any and
all evidence which contradicts your pet theories. It is the reason CTs
have gotten nowhere in the past 45 years, but it is quite amusing to see
you all keep trying.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Don't be ridiculous. You're just playing games. It is absolutely absurd to
suggest that a lapel flip could be categorized as either a cognitive or
reflexive response. Is this really the best you can do?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.- Hide quoted text -
Right, Tony. You arbitrarily decided it was at Z330 just as you
arbitrarily decided JFK was first hit at Z210 and JBC was first hit at
Z230 in complete absence of any visual evidence for such while at the same
time you try to dismiss the very obvious response of JBC's right arm which
becomes evident in Z226. You are simply in denial. You should probably
heed the old adage, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".
Actually, it was the WC that was in denial that the FBI Gemberling
Report claimed that there were three shots fired at the passengers of
the limo.
When they discovered that Tague had also been hit, meaning a fourth
shot was probably fired, they knew LHO could not have acted alone.
Therefore, they had to make things up in order to get to the
conclusion they needed.  Their SB scenario was pragmatic and 'solved'
their real problem, which was evidence of conspiracy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
No, Tague being hit did not mean a fourth shot was fired. First of all, we
don't know what hit Tague. He didn't even know he had been hit until after
it was all over and somebody told him his cheek was bleeding. It could
have been a ricochet from a missed shot, a bullet fragment from the head
shot, or something unrelated to the shooting such as a pebble kicked up by
a passing car. While I find it to be more probable that it was the result
of the shooting, it is far from a certainty.

Three shots and three hits sounded like a plausible starting point but as
more information became available, that theory became implausible. Tague's
wound was not the main reason the SBT evolved although it might have
contributed. The main problem was that JFK and JBC were wounded too
closely together to have been hit twice by shots from the same bolt action
rifle. A second rifle was one possible alternative to the original
assumption. But observation of the Z-film showed JFK and JBC reacting
simultaneously to their wounds so the single bullet theory became a
distinct possible. Further examination showed JFK and JBC were lined up to
be hit by one bullet from the TSDB. The bullet was powerful enough to pass
through both men, a bullet exiting JFK's throat could hardly have missed
JBC, and the nature of the entrance wound on JBC's back indicated a
tumbling bullet (No, it was not the result of a tangential hit because
lining up the entrance and exit wounds does not indicate a tangential
bullet path into JBCs' body). In addition, only two bullets were
recovered. Putting all the additional information together, the SBT not
only was a possibility, it was the ONLY possibility. No other explaination
has ever been offered that cannot be refuted with the known facts. You
aren't going to come up with a viable alternative because you can't. No
one can. The single bullet theory is the only plausible explaination. It
should be called the single bullet fact. It came about through logical,
deductive reasoning. The fact that it was not the first answer does not
mean it was the wrong answer.
pamela
2009-04-21 04:55:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by pamela
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Different nerve, same principle. Reflexive responses happen very quickly.
The nerves and muscles respond directly to an external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain. You asked for a source and I gave you one.
Now if you have a source which indicates the nerves involved in JFK's back
wound or JBC's wrist wound would act significantly slower, we'd all be
just too happy to see it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Well, yes, when you are a CT you are free to imagine anything you want
without any evidence to support it. You are also free to ignore any and
all evidence which contradicts your pet theories. It is the reason CTs
have gotten nowhere in the past 45 years, but it is quite amusing to see
you all keep trying.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Don't be ridiculous. You're just playing games. It is absolutely absurd to
suggest that a lapel flip could be categorized as either a cognitive or
reflexive response. Is this really the best you can do?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.- Hide quoted text -
Right, Tony. You arbitrarily decided it was at Z330 just as you
arbitrarily decided JFK was first hit at Z210 and JBC was first hit at
Z230 in complete absence of any visual evidence for such while at the same
time you try to dismiss the very obvious response of JBC's right arm which
becomes evident in Z226. You are simply in denial. You should probably
heed the old adage, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".
Actually, it was the WC that was in denial that the FBI Gemberling
Report claimed that there were three shots fired at the passengers of
the limo.
When they discovered that Tague had also been hit, meaning a fourth
shot was probably fired, they knew LHO could not have acted alone.
Therefore, they had to make things up in order to get to the
conclusion they needed.  Their SB scenario was pragmatic and 'solved'
their real problem, which was evidence of conspiracy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
No, Tague being hit did not mean a fourth shot was fired. First of all, we
don't know what hit Tague. He didn't even know he had been hit until after
it was all over and somebody told him his cheek was bleeding. It could
have been a ricochet from a missed shot, a bullet fragment from the head
shot, or something unrelated to the shooting such as a pebble kicked up by
a passing car. While I find it to be more probable that it was the result
of the shooting, it is far from a certainty.
Three shots and three hits sounded like a plausible starting point but as
more information became available, that theory became implausible. Tague's
wound was not the main reason the SBT evolved although it might have
contributed. The main problem was that JFK and JBC were wounded too
closely together to have been hit twice by shots from the same bolt action
rifle. A second rifle was one possible alternative to the original
assumption. But observation of the Z-film showed JFK and JBC reacting
simultaneously to their wounds so the single bullet theory became a
distinct possible. Further examination showed JFK and JBC were lined up to
be hit by one bullet from the TSDB. The bullet was powerful enough to pass
through both men, a bullet exiting JFK's throat could hardly have missed
JBC, and the nature of the entrance wound on JBC's back indicated a
tumbling bullet (No, it was not the result of a tangential hit because
lining up the entrance and exit wounds does not indicate a tangential
bullet path into JBCs' body). In addition, only two bullets were
recovered. Putting all the additional information together, the SBT not
only was a possibility, it was the ONLY possibility. No other explaination
has ever been offered that cannot be refuted with the known facts. You
aren't going to come up with a viable alternative because you can't. No
one can. The single bullet theory is the only plausible explaination. It
should be called the single bullet fact. It came about through logical,
deductive reasoning. The fact that it was not the first answer does not
mean it was the wrong answer.
The Tague shot was the death knoll for the Gemberling Report per the WC.
They didn't figure that out until late in their sessions.
bigdog
2009-04-21 16:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by pamela
Post by bigdog
Post by pamela
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Different nerve, same principle. Reflexive responses happen very quickly.
The nerves and muscles respond directly to an external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain. You asked for a source and I gave you one.
Now if you have a source which indicates the nerves involved in JFK's back
wound or JBC's wrist wound would act significantly slower, we'd all be
just too happy to see it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Well, yes, when you are a CT you are free to imagine anything you want
without any evidence to support it. You are also free to ignore any and
all evidence which contradicts your pet theories. It is the reason CTs
have gotten nowhere in the past 45 years, but it is quite amusing to see
you all keep trying.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Don't be ridiculous. You're just playing games. It is absolutely absurd to
suggest that a lapel flip could be categorized as either a cognitive or
reflexive response. Is this really the best you can do?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.- Hide quoted text -
Right, Tony. You arbitrarily decided it was at Z330 just as you
arbitrarily decided JFK was first hit at Z210 and JBC was first hit at
Z230 in complete absence of any visual evidence for such while at the same
time you try to dismiss the very obvious response of JBC's right arm which
becomes evident in Z226. You are simply in denial. You should probably
heed the old adage, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".
Actually, it was the WC that was in denial that the FBI Gemberling
Report claimed that there were three shots fired at the passengers of
the limo.
When they discovered that Tague had also been hit, meaning a fourth
shot was probably fired, they knew LHO could not have acted alone.
Therefore, they had to make things up in order to get to the
conclusion they needed.  Their SB scenario was pragmatic and 'solved'
their real problem, which was evidence of conspiracy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
No, Tague being hit did not mean a fourth shot was fired. First of all, we
don't know what hit Tague. He didn't even know he had been hit until after
it was all over and somebody told him his cheek was bleeding. It could
have been a ricochet from a missed shot, a bullet fragment from the head
shot, or something unrelated to the shooting such as a pebble kicked up by
a passing car. While I find it to be more probable that it was the result
of the shooting, it is far from a certainty.
Three shots and three hits sounded like a plausible starting point but as
more information became available, that theory became implausible. Tague's
wound was not the main reason the SBT evolved although it might have
contributed. The main problem was that JFK and JBC were wounded too
closely together to have been hit twice by shots from the same bolt action
rifle. A second rifle was one possible alternative to the original
assumption. But observation of the Z-film showed JFK and JBC reacting
simultaneously to their wounds so the single bullet theory became a
distinct possible. Further examination showed JFK and JBC were lined up to
be hit by one bullet from the TSDB. The bullet was powerful enough to pass
through both men, a bullet exiting JFK's throat could hardly have missed
JBC, and the nature of the entrance wound on JBC's back indicated a
tumbling bullet (No, it was not the result of a tangential hit because
lining up the entrance and exit wounds does not indicate a tangential
bullet path into JBCs' body). In addition, only two bullets were
recovered. Putting all the additional information together, the SBT not
only was a possibility, it was the ONLY possibility. No other explaination
has ever been offered that cannot be refuted with the known facts. You
aren't going to come up with a viable alternative because you can't. No
one can. The single bullet theory is the only plausible explaination. It
should be called the single bullet fact. It came about through logical,
deductive reasoning. The fact that it was not the first answer does not
mean it was the wrong answer.
The Tague shot was the death knoll for the Gemberling Report per the WC.
They didn't figure that out until late in their sessions.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It doesn't matter whether they figured it out early or late. The
important thing is they figured it out. They got it right.

Einstein didn't get his theory of relativity right on the first try
either. Does that invalidate it?
tomnln
2009-04-21 16:27:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by pamela
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's
testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at
least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Different nerve, same principle. Reflexive responses happen very quickly.
The nerves and muscles respond directly to an external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain. You asked for a source and I gave you one.
Now if you have a source which indicates the nerves involved in JFK's back
wound or JBC's wrist wound would act significantly slower, we'd all be
just too happy to see it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Well, yes, when you are a CT you are free to imagine anything you want
without any evidence to support it. You are also free to ignore any and
all evidence which contradicts your pet theories. It is the reason CTs
have gotten nowhere in the past 45 years, but it is quite amusing to see
you all keep trying.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Don't be ridiculous. You're just playing games. It is absolutely absurd to
suggest that a lapel flip could be categorized as either a cognitive or
reflexive response. Is this really the best you can do?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.- Hide quoted text -
Right, Tony. You arbitrarily decided it was at Z330 just as you
arbitrarily decided JFK was first hit at Z210 and JBC was first hit at
Z230 in complete absence of any visual evidence for such while at the same
time you try to dismiss the very obvious response of JBC's right arm which
becomes evident in Z226. You are simply in denial. You should probably
heed the old adage, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".
Actually, it was the WC that was in denial that the FBI Gemberling
Report claimed that there were three shots fired at the passengers of
the limo.
When they discovered that Tague had also been hit, meaning a fourth
shot was probably fired, they knew LHO could not have acted alone.
Therefore, they had to make things up in order to get to the
conclusion they needed. Their SB scenario was pragmatic and 'solved'
their real problem, which was evidence of conspiracy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
No, Tague being hit did not mean a fourth shot was fired. First of all, we
don't know what hit Tague. He didn't even know he had been hit until after
it was all over and somebody told him his cheek was bleeding. It could
have been a ricochet from a missed shot, a bullet fragment from the head
shot, or something unrelated to the shooting such as a pebble kicked up by
a passing car. While I find it to be more probable that it was the result
of the shooting, it is far from a certainty.

Three shots and three hits sounded like a plausible starting point but as
more information became available, that theory became implausible. Tague's
wound was not the main reason the SBT evolved although it might have
contributed. The main problem was that JFK and JBC were wounded too
closely together to have been hit twice by shots from the same bolt action
rifle. A second rifle was one possible alternative to the original
assumption. But observation of the Z-film showed JFK and JBC reacting
simultaneously to their wounds so the single bullet theory became a
distinct possible. Further examination showed JFK and JBC were lined up to
be hit by one bullet from the TSDB. The bullet was powerful enough to pass
through both men, a bullet exiting JFK's throat could hardly have missed
JBC, and the nature of the entrance wound on JBC's back indicated a
tumbling bullet (No, it was not the result of a tangential hit because
lining up the entrance and exit wounds does not indicate a tangential
bullet path into JBCs' body). In addition, only two bullets were
recovered. Putting all the additional information together, the SBT not
only was a possibility, it was the ONLY possibility. No other explaination
has ever been offered that cannot be refuted with the known facts. You
aren't going to come up with a viable alternative because you can't. No
one can. The single bullet theory is the only plausible explaination. It
should be called the single bullet fact. It came about through logical,
deductive reasoning. The fact that it was not the first answer does not
mean it was the wrong answer.



Glad to see that you Disagree with the WCR's findings.
bigdog
2009-04-23 02:24:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by pamela
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's
testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at
least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question?
Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide
expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would
require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in
which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus
with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Different nerve, same principle. Reflexive responses happen very quickly.
The nerves and muscles respond directly to an external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain. You asked for a source and I gave you one.
Now if you have a source which indicates the nerves involved in JFK's back
wound or JBC's wrist wound would act significantly slower, we'd all be
just too happy to see it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Well, yes, when you are a CT you are free to imagine anything you want
without any evidence to support it. You are also free to ignore any and
all evidence which contradicts your pet theories. It is the reason CTs
have gotten nowhere in the past 45 years, but it is quite amusing to see
you all keep trying.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Don't be ridiculous. You're just playing games. It is absolutely absurd to
suggest that a lapel flip could be categorized as either a cognitive or
reflexive response. Is this really the best you can do?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.- Hide quoted text -
Right, Tony. You arbitrarily decided it was at Z330 just as you
arbitrarily decided JFK was first hit at Z210 and JBC was first hit at
Z230 in complete absence of any visual evidence for such while at the same
time you try to dismiss the very obvious response of JBC's right arm which
becomes evident in Z226. You are simply in denial. You should probably
heed the old adage, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".
Actually, it was the WC that was in denial that the FBI Gemberling
Report claimed that there were three shots fired at the passengers of
the limo.
When they discovered that Tague had also been hit, meaning a fourth
shot was probably fired, they knew LHO could not have acted alone.
Therefore, they had to make things up in order to get to the
conclusion they needed. Their SB scenario was pragmatic and 'solved'
their real problem, which was evidence of conspiracy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
No, Tague being hit did not mean a fourth shot was fired. First of all, we
don't know what hit Tague. He didn't even know he had been hit until after
it was all over and somebody told him his cheek was bleeding. It could
have been a ricochet from a missed shot, a bullet fragment from the head
shot, or something unrelated to the shooting such as a pebble kicked up by
a passing car. While I find it to be more probable that it was the result
of the shooting, it is far from a certainty.
Three shots and three hits sounded like a plausible starting point but as
more information became available, that theory became implausible. Tague's
wound was not the main reason the SBT evolved although it might have
contributed. The main problem was that JFK and JBC were wounded too
closely together to have been hit twice by shots from the same bolt action
rifle. A second rifle was one possible alternative to the original
assumption. But observation of the Z-film showed JFK and JBC reacting
simultaneously to their wounds so the single bullet theory became a
distinct possible. Further examination showed JFK and JBC were lined up to
be hit by one bullet from the TSDB. The bullet was powerful enough to pass
through both men, a bullet exiting JFK's throat could hardly have missed
JBC, and the nature of the entrance wound on JBC's back indicated a
tumbling bullet (No, it was not the result of a tangential hit because
lining up the entrance and exit wounds does not indicate a tangential
bullet path into JBCs' body). In addition, only two bullets were
recovered. Putting all the additional information together, the SBT not
only was a possibility, it was the ONLY possibility. No other explaination
has ever been offered that cannot be refuted with the known facts. You
aren't going to come up with a viable alternative because you can't. No
one can. The single bullet theory is the only plausible explaination. It
should be called the single bullet fact. It came about through logical,
deductive reasoning. The fact that it was not the first answer does not
mean it was the wrong answer.
Glad to see that you Disagree with the WCR's findings.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Where did you read that? Apparently reading comprehension is not your
strong suit. Early hypotheses do not constitute findings. The final
conclusions are the findings. I support the SBT 100%.

Anthony Marsh
2009-04-21 03:52:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by pamela
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Different nerve, same principle. Reflexive responses happen very quickly.
The nerves and muscles respond directly to an external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain. You asked for a source and I gave you one.
Now if you have a source which indicates the nerves involved in JFK's back
wound or JBC's wrist wound would act significantly slower, we'd all be
just too happy to see it.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Well, yes, when you are a CT you are free to imagine anything you want
without any evidence to support it. You are also free to ignore any and
all evidence which contradicts your pet theories. It is the reason CTs
have gotten nowhere in the past 45 years, but it is quite amusing to see
you all keep trying.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Don't be ridiculous. You're just playing games. It is absolutely absurd to
suggest that a lapel flip could be categorized as either a cognitive or
reflexive response. Is this really the best you can do?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.- Hide quoted text -
Right, Tony. You arbitrarily decided it was at Z330 just as you
arbitrarily decided JFK was first hit at Z210 and JBC was first hit at
Z230 in complete absence of any visual evidence for such while at the same
time you try to dismiss the very obvious response of JBC's right arm which
becomes evident in Z226. You are simply in denial. You should probably
heed the old adage, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".
Actually, it was the WC that was in denial that the FBI Gemberling
Report claimed that there were three shots fired at the passengers of
the limo.
When they discovered that Tague had also been hit, meaning a fourth
shot was probably fired, they knew LHO could not have acted alone.
It was not the Tague injury which tipped them to the SBT. They never
specified what hit Tague and never tried to fit him into the shooting
scenario. Hell, they tried to ignore him as much as possible. Specter is
the one who invented the SBT because he saw a timing problem. Assuming JFK
was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not be hit after Z-240 those
30 frames are not enough time for the rifle to fire two shots.
Post by pamela
Therefore, they had to make things up in order to get to the
conclusion they needed. Their SB scenario was pragmatic and 'solved'
their real problem, which was evidence of conspiracy.
WhiskyJoe
2009-04-21 04:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by pamela
Actually, it was the WC
that was in denial that
the FBI Gemberling Report
claimed that there were
three shots fired at the
passengers of the limo.
When they discovered that
Tague had also been hit,
meaning a fourth shot was
probably fired, they knew
LHO could not have acted
alone. Therefore, they
had to make things up
in order to get to the
conclusion they needed.
Their SB scenario was
pragmatic and 'solved'
their real problem,
which was evidence of
conspiracy.
Pamela

I think I know enough about
you from your posts to tell
that you always tell the
truth or what you believe is
the truth. But on this point,
others have lied to you.

The Warren Commission did
not adopt the SBT because
it was the only way to
account for the Tague wound
and all the other wounds and
damage, with just three shots
from Oswald. That is just a
common factoid that CTers
pass around.

The Warren Commission said,
explicitly, that the lead
smear on the curb, between
the limousine and Tague,
was possibly caused by a
fragment from the bullet
that struck JFK's head.
And so the wound to Tague
may have been from a fragment
of the bullet that struck
JFK in the head.

**********

Here is the quote from
the Warren Report,

Chapter III, page 117:

http://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wcr/page117.php

(CHAPTER III - The Shots
From the Texas School
Book Depository)

"Even if it were caused by a
bullet fragment, the mark on
the south curb of Main Street
cannot be identified
conclusively with any of the
three shots fired. Under the
circumstances it might have
come from

the bullet which hit
the President's head,

or it might have been a
product of the fragmentation
of the missed shot upon
hitting some other object
in the area. Since he did
not observe any of the shots
striking the President,
Tague's testimony that the
second shot, rather than the
third, caused the scratch on
his cheek, does not assist in
limiting the possibilities."

**********

Yes, this bullet fragment,
after it clears the windshield
frame, will have to curve
downward 16 feet to hit the
curb. But it is not much of
a stretch to have a rapidly
spinning irregular shaped
fragment curve down 16 feet
in the next 300 feet.
Certainly nothing compared
to the abrupt curvature
needed for a bullet exiting
JFK's neck to miss Connally,
not to mention, the rest of
the limousine.

That means, that the only way
they could account for every
thing was NOT to say that:

******************************

Scenario A:

* one shot missed and caused
no damage to the limousine,
nor wounds to anyone.

* one shot wounded both JFK
and Connally.

* one shot stuck JFK in the
head and fragments from it
damaged the windshield,
the windshield frame and
slightly wounded Tague.

******************************

They could have gone with:

Scenario B:

* one shot wounded JFK.

* one shot wounded Connally.

* one shot stuck JFK in the
head and fragments from it
damaged the windshield,
the windshield frame and
slightly wounded Tague.

All wounds to JFK and Connally
accounted for, all damage to
the limousine accounted for,
the lead smear on the curb
is accounted for, the scratch
on Tague's cheek is accounted
for. And all without the SBT.

******************************

I believe, not in the Posner
Scenario, that the shot that
missed caused Tague's wound,
but in "Scenario A", a
fragment from the head shot
wounded Tague.

Now, the Warren Commission
may have been wrong about
the possibility that Tague
wounding possibly being
caused a fragment from the
head shot. Or they might
have been wrong about the
same bullet wounding both
JFK and Connally. But in no
way did the Tague wound force
them into the SBT. Though
Kevin Costner is a good actor
and presented this argument
most convincingly, the Tague
wounding had no effect on
causing the Warren Commission
to adopt the SBT because
they said, in essence,
that Scenario A was possible.

******************************

The SBT was not adopted as
the only way to account for
all the damage and have all
the shots come from Oswald.
Scenario B works fine without
the SBT and they could have
gone with it. Instead, the
real reason they adopted
the SBT:

* Only one bullet and
fragments from a second
bullet was ever found.
It would be strange for
third bullet to strike
either JFK or Connally,
but make no other damage
to the limousine or to it's
other occupants, then somehow
thread it's way around the
other people in the limousine
and disappear.

Even if one accepts the claim,
contradicted by the autopsy
photographs, that JFK's back
wound was on the same level
as the throat wound,
maximizing the odds the bullet
through JFK could pass through
his neck and miss all other
occupants and the rest of the
limousine, it's still an
unlikely scenario. And
impossible, to be honest,
because as he passed behind
the sign and then reappeared,
it seems he was facing
Connally, so I can't see
how such a bullet could
miss Connally and the
windshield, whether it came
from the front or the back.
Can you?

Maybe the possibility that
JFK was wounded in the neck
by a bullet that missed
everything else is a barely
possible scenario, but it
certainly is not a likely
scenario.

* The simultaneous reactions
of JFK and Connally starting
at Z-226. Yes, quite possibly
as a result of two separate
bullets, but still a strange
coincidence.

* The at least rough lining
up of the JFK and Connally's
wounds, which lines up well
enough to cause, Wecht,
Harrison, Livingstone,
Groden, and Oliver Stone
to lie about the angle the
bullet was coming in from
the sniper's nest and the
positions of JFK and Connally
at the time JFK was first
wounded.

We seem to have alignment for
the SBT in both time and space,
both vertically and horizontally
(wound locations for JFK's neck
and Connally's chest ** )
** sic: should make "chest"
"torso"

The fact is that all the
wounds to JFK and Connally can
be accounted for by just two
bullets and if they needed a
third bullet, they could say
the third bullet did not miss
the limousine but struck JFK
or Connally and still account
for the wound to Tague. That
does leave them with the
difficulty of explaining what
happened to that third bullet,
but a second gunman scenario
would have the exact same
problem.

******************************

The only reason Oliver Stone
pushed this argument and CTers
still continue to use it, is
because it has dramatic punch.

"There was too much damage to
account for with just two
bullets. The Tague wound was
the straw that broke the
Camel's back. They had to
grasp the SBT like a
drowning man."

I have real difficulty
believing the CTers have
any killer argument, when
they rely so heavily on
false diagrams and false
arguments like this.

They style of argument that
CTers use, like in the movie
JKF and other books is pretty
effective for the general
public. But for Skeptics like
myself, not so effective.
In general, people who do not
buy into UFO's, Bigfoot,
Astrology, etc. do not buy
into the Kennedy assassination
conspiracy theories. And the
way they argue their case to
the public, with false diagrams
and false arguments, makes it
very difficult to convince
Skeptics. Using that style of
arguments with Skeptics will
likely fail even if a side's
general position is true.
This is because one would not
expect them to use false
arguments, if they have the
truth on their side.

Everyone has a biases. Humans
can no more not have biases
then to live without breathing.
But the lies I know prominent
CTers have told me have set
my biases more firmly than
anything the Warren Commission,
Gerald or Larry Sturdivan
have told me.

******************************

In conclusion, it's okay to
believe that the SBT is false.
But please don't believe that
the Tague wound forced the WC
to adopt the SBT, no matter
how many times they tell you
that. I know Costner was
convincing, but that was just
one more thing his character
was lying about in the movie.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-21 04:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Not quite the same. Different nerve.
Different nerve, same principle. Reflexive responses happen very quickly.
Wrong again. You are comparing apples and oranges. You are talking about a
monosynaptic reflex. I am talking about a Somatic Reflex Arc. Like the hot
stove reaction.

Ballistics expert Dr. Roger McCarthy has argued that it would have taken a
minimum of 200 milliseconds, or right around four frames, for Kennedy to
react, even involuntarily, as we see him doing in Z225:

Mr. CHESLER. Now, what I'd like to do is, is move to the very next
frame, 225. How much time elapsed on that day between time frame 224 was
filmed and the time that frame 225 was filmed?

Dr. McCARTHY. About 56 milliseconds. This camera is running at a
shade more than 18 frames/second, so between any 2 frames there's about an
18th of a second or 56 thousandth of a second. . . .

Mr. CHESLER. Now, Dr., based upon that, do you have a conclusion or
an opinion as to when the President was hit with the bullet ? how much
before this point?

Dr. McCARTHY. Yes, as I think Dr. Piziali accurately indicated,
there is a latency or a delay of about 200 milliseconds between the time
that a message is delivered by either traumatic shock to the spine or by
your mind to a muscle before you can get movement. You've experienced
that every time you've ever grabbed something hot. You've known it was
hot and were burned because of the delay, because you couldn't get ? let
go or move fast enough to avoid the damage. You knew it, and you just
couldn't make your body move fast enough. There's nothing wrong with
you; it takes about a fifth of a second to get all the hardware up to
full power ? to get the muscles to move.

Mr. CHESLER. Now, Dr., if, then, the President was hit 200
milliseconds before the movement on [frame] 225, how many frames back in
the film would that be?

Dr. McCARTHY. That would be at 221 at a minimum [i.e., at the
latest, and notice this is just based on timing it from a reaction at Z225]

Mr. CHESLER. And at 221 he's behind the sign, is that correct?

Dr. McCARTHY. Yes.

Mr. CHESLER. Alright. If he was hit at 221 and the Governor was hit
at 224 according to the prosecution, then could they have been hit by
the same bullet?

Dr. McCARTHY. No. (63:235-236, emphasis added)

Ever have a doctor test your reflexes by hitting a nerve, such as the
one in the knee or the elbow? Notice how quick the response is? Have the
doctor try the same thing on other nerves and see if the response is the
same. It isn't.
Post by bigdog
The nerves and muscles respond directly to an external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain. You asked for a source and I gave you one.
Now if you have a source which indicates the nerves involved in JFK's back
wound or JBC's wrist wound would act significantly slower, we'd all be
just too happy to see it.
I never said anything about Connally's wrist and that nerve. I believe the
nerve in Kennedy's back which was hit was C8, which would cause a response
similar to the Thorburn position, causing the arms to fly up and the hands
to ball up into fists. But that takes as much time as the hot stove
reaction, about 200 milliseconds.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
I can see arm flips wherever I want. That does not prove Connally was
hit at each one.
Well, yes, when you are a CT you are free to imagine anything you want
without any evidence to support it. You are also free to ignore any and
all evidence which contradicts your pet theories. It is the reason CTs
have gotten nowhere in the past 45 years, but it is quite amusing to see
you all keep trying.
Which explains why you WC defenders have failed to convince 90% of the
public.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
YOU said, "We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were exhibiting
cognitive or reflexive responses." That includes the lapel flip unless you
specifically excluded it, and even a hat flip.
Don't be ridiculous. You're just playing games. It is absolutely absurd to
suggest that a lapel flip could be categorized as either a cognitive or
reflexive response. Is this really the best you can do?
It's the barn door you left open.
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
Seems likely that he was hit in the wrist much later, at which point he
may have been drifting off into unconsciousness.- Hide quoted text -
Right, Tony. You arbitrarily decided it was at Z330 just as you
Not arbitrary. It came strictly from the acoustical evidence. Some have
even claimed that they can see the impact on the chrome topping at Z-330.
I naturally would love to latch onto that to prove my point, but I don't
think it is true. I think they see a light flare as the car arrived at the
perfect spot to strongly reflect the sun's glare off the chrome topping
relative to Zapruder's position.
Post by bigdog
arbitrarily decided JFK was first hit at Z210 and JBC was first hit at
Again, not arbitrarily. First, it was your very own WC which said Z-210.
Second, realigning the acoustical evidence placed the shot at Z-210.
Post by bigdog
Z230 in complete absence of any visual evidence for such while at the same
time you try to dismiss the very obvious response of JBC's right arm which
Visual evidence? Look at the damn film. Connally did and he said he
could see that he was hit at about Z-230.
Post by bigdog
becomes evident in Z226. You are simply in denial. You should probably
heed the old adage, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".
Some day there is hope that you will learn to debate honestly.
pamela
2009-04-18 00:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.
bigdog
2009-04-20 01:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is the second time I have read this and my question again is
this. A shadow of what? Something had to cast the shadow. What
appeared to cast a shadow in Z224 that wasn't there in Z223.
s***@yahoo.com
2009-04-20 21:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is the second time I have read this and my question again is
this. A shadow of what? Something had to cast the shadow. What
appeared to cast a shadow in Z224 that wasn't there in Z223.
Pam tried to tell us a few years ago that the shadow was caused--
as I recall-- by the Stemmons Freeway sign. People tried to point out
that it was impossible, and that in order for this to happen, there
would have to have been two sun's in the sky, that day.
Barb Junkkarinen
2009-04-21 02:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is the second time I have read this and my question again is
this. A shadow of what? Something had to cast the shadow. What
appeared to cast a shadow in Z224 that wasn't there in Z223.
Pam tried to tell us a few years ago that the shadow was caused--
as I recall-- by the Stemmons Freeway sign. People tried to point out
that it was impossible, and that in order for this to happen, there
would have to have been two sun's in the sky, that day.
Yeah, that was a good one.<g>

Barb :-)
pamela
2009-04-21 04:44:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is the second time I have read this and my question again is
this. A shadow of what? Something had to cast the shadow. What
appeared to cast a shadow in Z224 that wasn't there in Z223.
     Pam tried to tell us a few years ago that the shadow was caused--
as I recall-- by the Stemmons Freeway sign.  People tried to point out
that it was impossible, and that in order for this to happen, there
would have to have been two sun's in the sky, that day.
You're making things up. I said no such thing.

It is my thinking that the shadow is created by a side window of the limo
center partition reflecting something onto JBC's chest.
WhiskyJoe
2009-04-21 16:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by pamela
You're making things up.
I said no such thing.
It is my thinking that the
shadow is created by a side
window of the limo center
partition reflecting
something onto JBC's
chest.
The world of Physics is moving
way to fast for me. First I
had to wrap my mind around
dark matter, which is pretty
strange. Then it was dark
energy, which is really
strange. And now they have
come up with dark reflections,
which is way beyond my
comprehension. Maybe I
need Stephen Hawking to
explain it to me.

What kind of a reflection
would turn a white shirt,
with the sun shinning on it,
into appearing dark?

I think we are grasping at
straws to avoid the obvious
solution. The dark colored
coat bulged forward. That's
why the dark reflection is
the same color as the coat.
It's not a reflection at all.
It's the coat.

It's not like we have no
possible explanation for
this mysterious movement
of the coat. We know the
right side of the coat was
struck by a bullet at some
point in time? Why couldn't
the bullet have caused the
entire right side of the
coat to bulge forward?

If we need to develop a new
branch of Physics every time
we need to explain away
something to avoid the SBT,
we are going to give Physics
it's greatest setback since
Galileo was put under house
arrest.
Barb Junkkarinen
2009-04-21 18:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by pamela
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is the second time I have read this and my question again is
this. A shadow of what? Something had to cast the shadow. What
appeared to cast a shadow in Z224 that wasn't there in Z223.
     Pam tried to tell us a few years ago that the shadow was caused--
as I recall-- by the Stemmons Freeway sign.  People tried to point out
that it was impossible, and that in order for this to happen, there
would have to have been two sun's in the sky, that day.
You're making things up. I said no such thing.
Oh? You seem to be choosing to create "Oh what a tangled web..." here!


QUOTE
Post by pamela
It sure seems that you are about to dump the Stemmons sign as the source of
the shadow and move onto other shadows, but you are taking your time moving
into that. By doing so, you can seemingly distract everyone from noticing
the *flip-flop* (oh, the irony) from the Stemmons sign to some other shadow.
This would also allow you to abandon your refraction/reflection argument,
depending on the source of your new shadow.
Oh really Chad? I have been saying 'shadow' for ages. Surely you
recall our earlier discussions? Until I analyzied these full frames
Then I was struck by the synchronicity of the shadow with the sign.
END QUOTE

You even provided this in the same post!

QUOTE
Link to gif showing orientation of SFS and shadow on JBC's chest.


Loading Image...

END QUOTE
That particular post id here:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/74ea30a157309911/5fa8dbd4eb8ca643?hl=en&q=sign+shadow+limo+group:alt.assassination.jfk+author:pamela+author:mcelwain-brown

The discussion...hundreds of posts in more than one thread, was in
December 2004. Here's what a quick google turned up.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&as_q=sign+shadow+limo&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&scoring=&lr=&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2009&as_maxd=1&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2009&as_ugroup=alt.assassination.jfk&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=pamela+mcelwain-brown&safe=off
Post by pamela
It is my thinking that the shadow is created by a side window of the limo
center partition reflecting something onto JBC's chest.
Yeah. you came to that after being laughed out of the water,
instructed on the sun and shadows ... you positing an object could
have more than one shadow ... well, it was an interesting and
enlightening (so to speak) discussion for many of us.<g> And the
"something" you claimed ... was a corner of the Stemmons sign.
s***@yahoo.com
2009-04-22 02:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barb Junkkarinen
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is the second time I have read this and my question again is
this. A shadow of what? Something had to cast the shadow. What
appeared to cast a shadow in Z224 that wasn't there in Z223.
     Pam tried to tell us a few years ago that the shadow was caused--
as I recall-- by the Stemmons Freeway sign.  People tried to point out
that it was impossible, and that in order for this to happen, there
would have to have been two sun's in the sky, that day.
You're making things up.  I said no such thing.
Oh? You seem to be choosing to create "Oh what a tangled web..." here!
QUOTE
It sure seems that you are about to dump the Stemmons sign as the source of
the shadow and move onto other shadows, but you are taking your time moving
into that. By doing so, you can seemingly distract everyone from noticing
the *flip-flop* (oh, the irony) from the Stemmons sign to some other shadow.
This would also allow you to abandon your refraction/reflection argument,
depending on the source of your new shadow.
Oh really Chad?  I have been saying 'shadow' for ages.  Surely you
recall our earlier discussions?  Until I analyzied these full frames
Then I was struck by the synchronicity of the shadow with the sign.  
END QUOTE
You even provided this in the same post!
QUOTE
Link to gif showing orientation of SFS and shadow on JBC's chest.
http://www.mindspring.com/~pamelajfk/figure%203.gif
END QUOTE
That particular post id here:http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
The discussion...hundreds of posts in more than one thread, was in
December 2004. Here's what a quick google turned up.
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&as_q=sign+shadow+limo&as...
It is my thinking that the shadow is created by a side window of the limo
center partition reflecting something onto JBC's chest.
Yeah. you came to that after being laughed out of the water,
instructed on the sun and shadows ... you positing an object could
have more than one shadow ... well, it was an interesting and
enlightening (so to speak) discussion for many of us.<g> And the
"something" you claimed ... was a corner of the Stemmons sign.
Thank you, Barb. In spite of what she said, I knew that I wasn't
"making things up" and that Pam, had indeed, pointed to the Stemmons
Freeway sign as the source for the "shadow". Thank you for traveling back
in time, to locate the posts.
Barb Junkkarinen
2009-04-22 03:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by Barb Junkkarinen
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is the second time I have read this and my question again is
this. A shadow of what? Something had to cast the shadow. What
appeared to cast a shadow in Z224 that wasn't there in Z223.
     Pam tried to tell us a few years ago that the shadow was caused--
as I recall-- by the Stemmons Freeway sign.  People tried to point out
that it was impossible, and that in order for this to happen, there
would have to have been two sun's in the sky, that day.
You're making things up.  I said no such thing.
Oh? You seem to be choosing to create "Oh what a tangled web..." here!
QUOTE
It sure seems that you are about to dump the Stemmons sign as the source of
the shadow and move onto other shadows, but you are taking your time moving
into that. By doing so, you can seemingly distract everyone from noticing
the *flip-flop* (oh, the irony) from the Stemmons sign to some other shadow.
This would also allow you to abandon your refraction/reflection argument,
depending on the source of your new shadow.
Oh really Chad?  I have been saying 'shadow' for ages.  Surely you
recall our earlier discussions?  Until I analyzied these full frames
Then I was struck by the synchronicity of the shadow with the sign.  
END QUOTE
You even provided this in the same post!
QUOTE
Link to gif showing orientation of SFS and shadow on JBC's chest.
http://www.mindspring.com/~pamelajfk/figure%203.gif
END QUOTE
That particular post id here:http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
The discussion...hundreds of posts in more than one thread, was in
December 2004. Here's what a quick google turned up.
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&as_q=sign+shadow+limo&as...
It is my thinking that the shadow is created by a side window of the limo
center partition reflecting something onto JBC's chest.
Yeah. you came to that after being laughed out of the water,
instructed on the sun and shadows ... you positing an object could
have more than one shadow ... well, it was an interesting and
enlightening (so to speak) discussion for many of us.<g> And the
"something" you claimed ... was a corner of the Stemmons sign.
Thank you, Barb. In spite of what she said, I knew that I wasn't
"making things up" and that Pam, had indeed, pointed to the Stemmons
Freeway sign as the source for the "shadow". Thank you for traveling back
in time, to locate the posts.
No prob. You pretty much always have to travel *somewhere* when Pam is
involved. Or *want* to.

Maybe you would care to take a stab at explaining to her that the Z
film is irrelevant to the Fetzer/White claim, based solely on
Moorman's line of sight, and to the essay that debunks their claim?
<g>

Good luck!

Barb :-)
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-21 04:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is the second time I have read this and my question again is
this. A shadow of what? Something had to cast the shadow. What
appeared to cast a shadow in Z224 that wasn't there in Z223.
Not my theory, but what about a shadow of the lapel?
bigdog
2009-04-21 04:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
As I said before, about 100 times, read Roger McCarthy's testimony. If
we see a reaction in Z-225 that means the stimulus happened at least 4
frames earlier.
Why would you cite an engineer regarding a medical question? Even if
he is correct about the reaction time, a Z221 strike works for the
SBT.
Why would you even ask a question like that? Because you know nothing
about the ABA mock trial. McCarthy's company was asked to provide expert
testimony on both sides. McCarthy is an expert on ballistics.
McCarthy is giving testimony regarding response time and that is a
neurological question. His answer that the response time would require 4
frames assumes it was a cognitive response. Reflexive responses in which
the nerves and muscles respond directly to the external stimulus with no
intervention from the brain are much faster and could have occured one
frame after the bullet struck.
I don't remember McCarthy ever saying cognitive and I seriously doubt
such a reaction could happen in 4 frames. I'd like to see your source
that the reflex reaction could happen in 55 milliseconds.
No he didn't say what kind of response it was which is why he is a poor
choice for giving testimony about neuro-muscular responses. That is not
his area of expertise. Again I ask why you would reference him? Here is
one source which indicates knee-jerk reaction times are about 50
milliseconds.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chreflex.html
Post by Anthony Marsh
So what if it flipped up and down? It also flipped up and down at the
airport so you'd have to claim that proves he was shot at the airport.
So now you do see the arm flip. We are making progress. In what film
does JBC's arm flip up and down in a half second interval at the
airport? This is bogus.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
We can't see precisely when JBC began reacting because the start of his
first reaction, the rapid upward movement of his arm, is hidden by the
side of the car. We can't say for certain whether JFK and JBC were
exhibiting cognitive or reflexive responses. The difference in these
Oh really? So now you claim that the hat flip and lapel flip could be
cognitive responses.
Brilliant. The lapel flip a congnitive response. You're getting silly. As
for the flip of his right arm, since we can't precisely pinpoint the frame
the bullet hit or JBC's arm began moving, it could have been cognitive or
reflexive. Since JBC did not even know he had been shot through the wrist
until the next day, it seems likely it was a reflexive response.
What Posner calls a 'lapel flip' is simply a shadow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is the second time I have read this and my question again is
this. A shadow of what? Something had to cast the shadow. What
appeared to cast a shadow in Z224 that wasn't there in Z223.
Not my theory, but what about a shadow of the lapel?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
If the shadow of the lapel moved, the lapel moved. Not exactly rocket
science.
Ritchie Linton
2009-04-09 04:02:33 UTC
Permalink
bigdog" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message assertion. I'm betting
you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.

If know if you did that, you would be serving up batting practice. I'm
going all in on this one. Do you want to call or fold? It's your move.

++++well-the first shot came when U can C Greer turning around backward
for the 1st time&thge he trurned around again after JBC had also done
so-plugged him in the back bc he was already turned(the cop to the right
rear saw the shirt "erupt with blood")& now that JBC was out of the
way(apparently saying 'they R going to shoot us all')Greer turned again&
fired the fatal bullet.Being soft lead from a pistol that final shot left
a "fine spray of metallic fragments" later detected in Xray=so small that
most were not recovered but the ballistic link to the Oz rifle was
accomplished by the discovery of the SB planted in frame against him with
the rifle=it did its job.
^^^^^go allin as U say^

Ritchie
bigdog
2009-04-10 00:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
you won't dare tell us when you you believe JFK
was first hit and when JBC was hit.
If know if you did that, you would be serving up batting practice. I'm
going all in on this one. Do you want to call or fold? It's your move.
++++well-the first shot came when U can C Greer turning around backward
for the 1st time&thge he trurned around again after JBC had also done
so-plugged him in the back bc he was already turned(the cop to the right
rear saw the shirt "erupt with blood")& now that JBC was out of the
way(apparently saying 'they R going to shoot us all')Greer turned again&
fired the fatal bullet.Being soft lead from a pistol that final shot left
a "fine spray of metallic fragments" later detected in Xray=so small that
most were not recovered but the ballistic link to the Oz rifle was
accomplished by the discovery of the SB planted in frame against him with
the rifle=it did its job.
^^^^^go allin as U say^
Ritchie
Thanks for the comic relief.
tomnln
2009-04-07 04:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
I can understand how you can interpret and rationalize the SBT. If you are
correct, then, how do you reconcile the convincing and unwaivering
testimonies of both Nellie and JBC that they both heard the first shot,
and their claim that it did not hit JBC? Were they both grossly incorrect?
If we dismiss witness testimony as unreliable, and focus solely on visual
evidence, then I should ask if you believe the Altgens photo that
corresponds to circa Z255 shows windshield damage? Your explanation of the
SBT does not allow for that windshield to exhibit damage at that point,
unless you can demonstrate a missed shot.

For example, let's assume that the bolt action rifle could be fired,
reloaded, and fired again in 2 seconds (a slightly conservative estimate).
That corresponds to at least 36 Z-frames. You stated in your first post
that a first shot was fired at Z221. Adding 36 frames equals Z257. If JFK
and JBC had already been wounded by a shot at Z221, then this forces an
explanation of a missed shot somewhere between Z257 (or Z255 allowing for
possible error), as well as Z277 (313 minus 36 = 277). Again, these are
conservative timing estimates. The timing is reduced if we accept the 2.3
second recycle time of the MC rifle, as well as the 18.3 fps of Zapruder's
camera. I don't see visual evidence in the Z-film of a missed shot fired
between 255 and 277. Respectfully,

~Mark



WCR on page 106 states that it took a minimum of 2.3 seconds to recycle
the bolt (42 frames).
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-07 02:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by jblubaugh
It must feel strange to be in such a minority when it comes to believing
in the single bullet theory. That theory was a hoax that became necessary
when it was discovered that there were three shots (so they thought) and
one missed completely. Do you still believe in the tooth fairy too? Watch
out for the Easter Bunny next week.
JB- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
So, you see yourself as one of the ruling elite smarter than the
unwashed masses. Guess that makes you feel pretty good.
Post by bigdog
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
There was a consensus from the beginning that all three shots hit the men.
The SBT was invented to avoid the obvious conclusion of conspiracy.
bigdog
2009-04-07 18:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by jblubaugh
It must feel strange to be in such a minority when it comes to believing
in the single bullet theory. That theory was a hoax that became necessary
when it was discovered that there were three shots (so they thought) and
one missed completely. Do you still believe in the tooth fairy too? Watch
out for the Easter Bunny next week.
JB- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
So, you see yourself as one of the ruling elite smarter than the
unwashed masses. Guess that makes you feel pretty good.
It's not bad.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
There was a consensus from the beginning that all three shots hit the men.
The SBT was invented to avoid the obvious conclusion of conspiracy.
Well let's think about this. From day one, it was known that there had
been 3 shots, JFK had been hit twice, and JBC once. It would only be
natural to start with the assumption that there had been three hits.
But then they began reviewing the Z-film and saw that didn't work. JFK
and JBC were hit too closely together to have been hit by seperate
shots from the same bolt action rifle. In addition, there was
circumstantial evidence, although inconclusive, that a bystander my
have been wounded by a stray shot. There was also the fact that there
was only definitive evidence that two bullets had been recovered. It
was theoretically possible that the two large fragments could have
come from two different bullets, but it seemed more likely they were
two pieces of the same bullet. So it seemed probable that there had
been a missed shot. With 3 hits on the two men and a missed shot, that
leaves two possibilities. There had been more than 3 shots or one
bullet hit two men. There was no physical evidence of a fourth shot
from the TSBD nor anywhere else and there was an overwhelming
consensus among the witnesses that there had been only three shots. On
the other hand, recreations indicated JFK and JBC were in allignment
with the SN and a bullet exiting JFK's throat could hardly have missed
JBC and if it had, should have struck something else in the limo. JFK
and JBC were seen reacting simultaneously to their wounds. The SBT
also explained the curious shape of the entrance wound on JBC's back,
a tumbling bullet which could only have happened if the bullet had
struck something else before hitting JBC. In short, the SBT resolved
all the conflicts. It tied up the loose ends. If fit with everything
that was known at the time and is known to this day. That is what I
meant when I said the SBT was the result of a brilliant piece of
deductive reasoning. The fact that the SBT wasn't the first theory
considered in no way invalidates it. It wasn't the first answer but it
was the right answer.
Anthony Marsh
2009-04-08 03:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by jblubaugh
It must feel strange to be in such a minority when it comes to believing
in the single bullet theory. That theory was a hoax that became necessary
when it was discovered that there were three shots (so they thought) and
one missed completely. Do you still believe in the tooth fairy too? Watch
out for the Easter Bunny next week.
JB- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't mind being in the minority when I know I am right. How do you
feel being among the confused masses? There was a consensus from the
So, you see yourself as one of the ruling elite smarter than the
unwashed masses. Guess that makes you feel pretty good.
It's not bad.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
very beginning that there were three shots. That was in the original
news bulletins. The SBT became necessary because that is what the
analysis of events dictated happened.
There was a consensus from the beginning that all three shots hit the men.
The SBT was invented to avoid the obvious conclusion of conspiracy.
Well let's think about this. From day one, it was known that there had
been 3 shots, JFK had been hit twice, and JBC once. It would only be
natural to start with the assumption that there had been three hits.
But then they began reviewing the Z-film and saw that didn't work. JFK
and JBC were hit too closely together to have been hit by seperate
shots from the same bolt action rifle. In addition, there was
Yes, as I said many times before. But it didn't dawn on them until late
in April of 1964. Until then they thought it was three shots, three hits.
Post by bigdog
circumstantial evidence, although inconclusive, that a bystander my
have been wounded by a stray shot. There was also the fact that there
May. But they even tried to dismiss that.
Post by bigdog
was only definitive evidence that two bullets had been recovered. It
There was no proof that they recovered two bullets. The two large
fragments COULD have been from separate bullets.
Post by bigdog
was theoretically possible that the two large fragments could have
come from two different bullets, but it seemed more likely they were
two pieces of the same bullet. So it seemed probable that there had
I think so too, but that is not proof.
Post by bigdog
been a missed shot. With 3 hits on the two men and a missed shot, that
leaves two possibilities. There had been more than 3 shots or one
bullet hit two men. There was no physical evidence of a fourth shot
from the TSBD nor anywhere else and there was an overwhelming
consensus among the witnesses that there had been only three shots. On
There was physical evidence of one shot from the grassy knoll.
Post by bigdog
the other hand, recreations indicated JFK and JBC were in allignment
with the SN and a bullet exiting JFK's throat could hardly have missed
JBC and if it had, should have struck something else in the limo. JFK
and JBC were seen reacting simultaneously to their wounds. The SBT
JFK was reacting before Connally.
Post by bigdog
also explained the curious shape of the entrance wound on JBC's back,
a tumbling bullet which could only have happened if the bullet had
struck something else before hitting JBC. In short, the SBT resolved
Again, you are spouting fiction. There are other causes of an elongated
wound. If you really think that the elongation proves the bullet hit
something else first, then you'd have to claim that the bullet that hit
JFK's head hit something else first as well. Name the object and prove
the alignment.
Post by bigdog
all the conflicts. It tied up the loose ends. If fit with everything
that was known at the time and is known to this day. That is what I
meant when I said the SBT was the result of a brilliant piece of
deductive reasoning. The fact that the SBT wasn't the first theory
considered in no way invalidates it. It wasn't the first answer but it
was the right answer.
It is based on false data and false premises, which you spew out every day.
curtjester1
2009-04-08 03:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by bigdog
The SBT came about through a brilliant piece of deductive reasoning. It
was not an answer that was obvious at first, but was the result of piecing
together a number of pieces of evidence. Recreations of the shooting by
the WC showed that at the time of the SB shot, JFK and JBC were perfectly
alligned to have been struck by one bullet fired from a high powered rifle
from the sniper's nest in the TSBD. The alleged weapon was more than
powerful enough to have passed through the torsos of two men and the wrist
of JBC before striking, but not lodging in JBC's left thigh. Contrary to
what the CT camp has claimed for years, the SBT does not require a magic
bullet. It does not require a bullet that performs ballistic gymnastics.
It does not require a bullet to change directions or remain suspended in
mid air. It simply requires a straight through bullet path from JFK's back
wound, through is throat wound, to the entrance wound on JBC's back,
through the exit wound in his chest, through his right wrist before
running out of gas and making just a superficial wound in his left thigh.
It is also the only theory ever put forth that does NOT require a magic
bullet to explain the wounds sustained by both JFK and JBC.
The allignment of the two men supports the SBT. The nature of the wounds
supports the SBT. But the most compelling piece of evidence for the SBT is
the one piece of evidence that so often is used to refute it, the Zapruder
film. Rather than being a source of arguments against the SBT, the Z-film
is in fact the Rosetta Stone for the SBT.
Rightly or wrongly, for many years CTs have argued that the WC favored the
theory that Oswald's missed shot was his second shot, even though that
runs contrary to the WC's explicitly stated position that they could not
determine which shot missed. The WC did conclude that the first shot which
struck JFK hit him between Z210 and Z224 at a time when he was hidden from
Zapruder's camera by the Stemmons Freeway sign. This of course is a
logical conclusion since JFK seemed to be unhurt at the time he
disappeared behind the sign at Z210 and had obviously been hit when he
reappeared at Z225. The explosion of JFK's head at Z313 is the only
definitive bullet strike in the Z-film so determining the time of the
other two shots is an excercise in deductive reasoning. If Oswald's second
shot had been the one that missed, than putting the shot that first hit
JFK early in the Z210- Z224 window would make sense since this would allow
the maximum amount of time for all three shots which is 5.6 seconds if one
assumes a second shot miss. This scenario ignores two vital clues from the
Z- film regarding the shot which first hit JFK.
For many years, it was believed that JBC's first visual reaction to being
shot began sometime in the Z230s when his torso twisted hard to his right
and his right shoulder dipped. If JFK had been hit early in the Z210-Z224
time frame proposed by the SBT, this would require us to believe that JBC
had demonstrated a delayed reaction to being struck. A delay of more than
one full second. Theoretically possible but highly unlikely. The consensus
among modern LN proponents is that the SB struck near the end of the
window proposed by the WC, in the early Z220s as JBC first reappeared from
behind the sign. The first of the vital clues which supports this argument
is the movement of JBC's right lapel from Z223 to Z224. Call it a flip.
Call it a bulge. Call it anything you want. The movement of the lapel is
clear and since a bullet did pass through the right side of his coat, this
is compelling evidence that the bullet struck just before these frames.
The second, and arguably the more compelling clue, comes at Z226. It is
this frame where we see JBC's Stetson, held in his right hand, appear
above the side of the limo. His right forearm makes a sudden and rapid up
and down movement beginning at this frame. This is the same forearm that
was shattered by bullet. The rapid up and down movement lasted from Z226
thru Z234, just 9 frames or about a half a second. To me, this is the
clincher for the SBT since this movement coincides with JFK's own visible
reaction to being struck, a reaction which becomes obvious at Z225. Both
JFK and JBC were reacting reflexively to their wounds at the same time. If
there is a more plausible explaination for the sudden up and down movement
of JBC's right forearm than that it had been struck by a bullet, I would
love to hear it. At the completion of this movement, JBC's torso twists
hard to his right and his right shoulder dips. This reaction is secondary
to the arm flip which we first see at Z226.
Quite simply, JBC did not exhibit a delayed reaction. He reacted at the
same time JFK did. It is my belief that the SB passed through both men at
the instant JBC first reappeared from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. If
one watches the Z-film at normal speed and focuses on JBC, it is appearent
that JBC was hit just as he reappeared. By focusing on JBC at the instant
he reappears, Z221, and saying "BANG" at this instant, it becomes clear
that JBC's right forearm reacted immediately following this just as we see
JFK's arms coming up in front of his throat. Both men were reacting to
their wounds at the same time. There was no delayed reaction. There was no
zigzagging bullet. A bullet did not need to remain suspended in mid-air. A
single bullet passed through both men's torsos in the Z221-Z222 time frame
and immediately afterward, both men demonstrated obvious reactions to
their wounds.
Quite simply he won't even look at pictures, such as are on Tom's
WhoKilledJFK site (under SBT) that have pieces of fragments all piled up
with x-rays of damage/fragments. Of course this wouldn't touch
authenticity of a 'real' found Parkland bullet, but would put to rest that
'they' would have anything to do with the attack on JFK. There are just
so many things too that are just visual like true alignments from Tom's
site, but here is something else to consider. What about the damage to
the windshield at Z25 (if you believe Z film to be authentic or having a
time relevance) which would already have to be there before JBC getting
hit.

Me confronting BigDog on the other site: Start

And yet you ignored the link in my first post which showed all the
fragments that were layed out and all the x-rays of fragments left in the
body. Never mind what would have been left in JFK or from the barrel of
the weapon itself. This is just typical though, for an LNT'er. That's
why it's so useless...they're just agendaists. Arguing and discussing is
like trying to figure out what the best definition of balderdash is.

And if one looks here: One can see the invasion and remnants of its
damage in the windshield at Z frame 225 (have to use the timeframe loosely
here, as the film is a fake). Of course too, the most reliable witnesses
who did see the hole in the windshield saw it as a hole of entry.

Look at page 21:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6jYkC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=j...

Oh, and that 'lapel flip'. Has one ever seen a picture of the hole in
JBC's coat? It's inches below the bottom end of the lapel. End.

Oh..and Phil Willis' photo claimed to be taken by the sound of the
shot...circa Z200...didn't they see white in the coat around the back
wound spot?

CJ
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