Discussion:
When was the Mannlicher-Carcano first reported in the press?
(too old to reply)
TLR
2011-07-28 03:38:51 UTC
Permalink
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
Hank Sienzant
2011-07-29 14:06:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It was always a Mannlicher Carcano -- Never a Mauser.

It was filmed in the TSBD by Thomas Alyea and the HSCA examined that
film and determined - guess what - it was Oswald's Carcano to the
exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
See the addendum here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0036b.htm

It was photographed by photographer William Allen (and others) as
J.C.Day of the DPD took the rifle from the TSBD on the afternoon of
11/22/63. Guess what - It's Oswald's MC, toi the of all other weapons
in the world. Here's one of Allen's photos: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm
(P.S. This one also shows the clip pretty clearly, killing two
conspiracy factoids with one stone).

The HSCA photographic panel also examined the backyard photos, found
them to be authentic, and found them to contain - guess what -
Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.

The crapola on the Mauser and the clip has *always* been misdirection
started by Mark Lane and Sylvia Meagher and Harold Weisberg, drawn
solely from witness accounts (witnesses who saw the weapon but did not
examine it), and never had any true basis in fact. The backyard photos
and the curtain rod story pretty much establish that Oswald was lying
through his teeth in custody, hence the ferocity with which the
critics attack those pieces of evidence. All criticisms of these
pieces of evidence suffer from the same ABO malady (Anyone But
Oswald).

Get over it.

All the best,

Hank
Anthony Marsh
2011-07-29 23:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It was always a Mannlicher Carcano -- Never a Mauser.
It was filmed in the TSBD by Thomas Alyea and the HSCA examined that
film and determined - guess what - it was Oswald's Carcano to the
exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
See the addendum here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0036b.htm
It was photographed by photographer William Allen (and others) as
J.C.Day of the DPD took the rifle from the TSBD on the afternoon of
11/22/63. Guess what - It's Oswald's MC, toi the of all other weapons
in the world. Here's one of Allen's photos: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm
(P.S. This one also shows the clip pretty clearly, killing two
conspiracy factoids with one stone).
The HSCA photographic panel also examined the backyard photos, found
them to be authentic, and found them to contain - guess what -
Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
The crapola on the Mauser and the clip has *always* been misdirection
started by Mark Lane and Sylvia Meagher and Harold Weisberg, drawn
solely from witness accounts (witnesses who saw the weapon but did not
examine it), and never had any true basis in fact. The backyard photos
and the curtain rod story pretty much establish that Oswald was lying
through his teeth in custody, hence the ferocity with which the
critics attack those pieces of evidence. All criticisms of these
pieces of evidence suffer from the same ABO malady (Anyone But
Oswald).
Almost correct, but this whole nonsense was started by the DPD that
afternoon, long before any conspiracy mongers showed up. You seem to
think Mark Lane was an ambulance chaser there on the weekend defending
Oswald.
Post by Hank Sienzant
Get over it.
All the best,
Hank
TLR
2011-07-30 01:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It was always a Mannlicher Carcano -- Never a Mauser.
It was filmed in the TSBD by Thomas Alyea and the HSCA examined that
film and determined - guess what - it was Oswald's Carcano to the
exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
See the addendum here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0036b.htm
It was photographed by photographer William Allen (and others) as
J.C.Day of the DPD took the rifle from the TSBD on the afternoon of
11/22/63. Guess what - It's Oswald's MC, toi the of all other weapons
in the world. Here's one of Allen's photos: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm
(P.S. This one also shows the clip pretty clearly, killing two
conspiracy factoids with one stone).
The HSCA photographic panel also examined the backyard photos, found
them to be authentic, and found them to contain - guess what -
Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
The crapola on the Mauser and the clip has *always* been misdirection
started by Mark Lane and Sylvia Meagher and Harold Weisberg, drawn
solely from witness accounts (witnesses who saw the weapon but did not
examine it), and never had any true basis in fact. The backyard photos
and the curtain rod story pretty much establish that Oswald was lying
through his teeth in custody, hence the ferocity with which the
critics attack those pieces of evidence. All criticisms of these
pieces of evidence suffer from the same ABO malady (Anyone But
Oswald).
Get over it.
All the best,
Hank
Reading comprehension - not your thing, is it? I asked a simple question.
WHEN WAS IT FIRST REPORTED IN THE PRESS AS A CARCANO? It was the Dallas
authorities who told the press it was a Mauser, and all I want to know is
when that was corrected.

If you can't answer that question, then spare me the rehash of the
Official Fairy Tale.
Hank Sienzant
2011-08-02 13:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLR
Post by Hank Sienzant
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It was always a Mannlicher Carcano -- Never a Mauser.
It was filmed in the TSBD by Thomas Alyea and the HSCA examined that
film and determined - guess what - it was Oswald's Carcano to the
exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
See the addendum here:http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/...
It was photographed by photographer William Allen (and others) as
J.C.Day of the DPD took the rifle from the TSBD on the afternoon of
11/22/63. Guess what - It's Oswald's MC, toi the of all other weapons
in the world. Here's one of Allen's photos:http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm
(P.S. This one also shows the clip pretty clearly, killing two
conspiracy factoids with one stone).
The HSCA photographic panel also examined the backyard photos, found
them to be authentic, and found them to contain -  guess what -
Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
The crapola on the Mauser and the clip has *always* been misdirection
started by Mark Lane and Sylvia Meagher and Harold Weisberg, drawn
solely from witness accounts (witnesses who saw the weapon but did not
examine it), and never had any true basis in fact. The backyard photos
and the curtain rod story pretty much establish that Oswald was lying
through his teeth in custody, hence the ferocity with which the
critics attack those pieces of evidence. All criticisms of these
pieces of evidence suffer from the same ABO malady (Anyone But
Oswald).
Get over it.
All the best,
Hank
Reading comprehension - not your thing, is it? I asked a simple question.
WHEN WAS IT FIRST REPORTED IN THE PRESS AS A CARCANO? It was the Dallas
authorities who told the press it was a Mauser, and all I want to know is
when that was corrected.
If you can't answer that question, then spare me the rehash of the
Official Fairy Tale.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
lol. The photos establish it is no fairy tale. The fairy tale is the
mauser rifle.
Anthony Marsh
2011-08-03 02:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant
Post by TLR
Post by Hank Sienzant
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It was always a Mannlicher Carcano -- Never a Mauser.
It was filmed in the TSBD by Thomas Alyea and the HSCA examined that
film and determined - guess what - it was Oswald's Carcano to the
exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
See the addendum here:http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/...
It was photographed by photographer William Allen (and others) as
J.C.Day of the DPD took the rifle from the TSBD on the afternoon of
11/22/63. Guess what - It's Oswald's MC, toi the of all other weapons
in the world. Here's one of Allen's photos:http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm
(P.S. This one also shows the clip pretty clearly, killing two
conspiracy factoids with one stone).
The HSCA photographic panel also examined the backyard photos, found
them to be authentic, and found them to contain - guess what -
Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
The crapola on the Mauser and the clip has *always* been misdirection
started by Mark Lane and Sylvia Meagher and Harold Weisberg, drawn
solely from witness accounts (witnesses who saw the weapon but did not
examine it), and never had any true basis in fact. The backyard photos
and the curtain rod story pretty much establish that Oswald was lying
through his teeth in custody, hence the ferocity with which the
critics attack those pieces of evidence. All criticisms of these
pieces of evidence suffer from the same ABO malady (Anyone But
Oswald).
Get over it.
All the best,
Hank
Reading comprehension - not your thing, is it? I asked a simple question.
WHEN WAS IT FIRST REPORTED IN THE PRESS AS A CARCANO? It was the Dallas
authorities who told the press it was a Mauser, and all I want to know is
when that was corrected.
If you can't answer that question, then spare me the rehash of the
Official Fairy Tale.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
lol. The photos establish it is no fairy tale. The fairy tale is the
mauser rifle.
It was an honest mistake. The rifle looks like a Mauser to the layperson
who had never heard of the Mannlicher-Carcano before.

John McAdams
2011-07-30 01:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It was IDed at a Mannlicher-Carcano on the afternoon of Nov. 22 --
after being IDed as a "British rifle" and a "Mauser."

If I can remember to check my notes when I'm at the office, I can tell
you at what time NBC reported a Mannlicher-Carcano.

.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
2011-07-30 19:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McAdams
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It was IDed at a Mannlicher-Carcano on the afternoon of Nov. 22 --
after being IDed as a "British rifle" and a "Mauser."
If I can remember to check my notes when I'm at the office, I can tell
you at what time NBC reported a Mannlicher-Carcano.
I suspect it is on the tape As it Happened.
Not sure if I have the NBC transcripts handy.


I make it to be 6:16 PM.


Post by John McAdams
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Karl Kinaski
2011-07-30 19:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
i only know that DA Wade was still taking about a "Mauser" in his
midnight press conference nov 22.1963
Anthony Marsh
2011-07-31 01:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Kinaski
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
i only know that DA Wade was still taking about a "Mauser" in his
midnight press conference nov 22.1963
He had not gotten the memo yet. He was out of the loop. Remember that the
DPD was so poor that they couldn't even afford a tape recorder. So maybe
they couldn't afford a TV and Wade never watched the coverage on TV. Or
maybe he was too busy doing police work to go home and watch TV all day.
Hank Sienzant
2011-08-02 13:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Kinaski
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
i only know that DA Wade was still taking about a "Mauser" in his
midnight press conference nov 22.1963
lol.

Well, who are you going to believe, Henry Wade or your own eyes?

Is the photo below of a Mauser being removed from the TSBD or of a
Mannlicher-Carcano?

Loading Image...
Anthony Marsh
2011-08-03 02:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Sienzant
Post by Karl Kinaski
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
i only know that DA Wade was still taking about a "Mauser" in his
midnight press conference nov 22.1963
lol.
Well, who are you going to believe, Henry Wade or your own eyes?
Is the photo below of a Mauser being removed from the TSBD or of a
Mannlicher-Carcano?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/day_clip.gif
Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano. Some of us think that we can see the clip
start to poke out even while Day was handling it in the TSBD, but the
lighting is dim. Harry Livingstone made a Polaroid print for me from the
Alyea film. I think someone made a frame capture and posted it online.
Clubking01
2011-08-01 21:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It is not clear from a video I have what time Saturday, but it was
definitely sometime on Saturday NOT Sunday that the Mannlicher-Carcano
was identified. My guess is that it was released by police sometime
during the day Saturday and that ABC’s Chicago affiliate WLS-TV then
reported on it later in the day as it had local interest. WLS anchor
Frank Reynolds stated at the end of the report: “so we come to the end
of the second day of this nightmare”…., indicating it was the end of
the day Saturday.

As the report began, Reynolds stated that “…from the Dallas Police
that the gun used to kill President Kennedy yesterday, was purchased
from a sporting goods company here in Chicago. The killer ordered the
gun through the mail…”

They go on to have a report from the Seneca Hotel in Chicago where
Milton Klein, owner of Klein’s Sporting Goods lived, but for obvious
reasons was not talking to reporters. The WLS reporter there held up
the actual catalog, described as the Winter 1963/Spring 1964 edition,
and then showed a close up of the actual ad:
“On page 10 of that catalog, listed is the very rifle that was
purchased by Lee Harvey Oswald, under the name of A. Hidell. It’s very
simple to purchase this gun, it only costs $12.78. If you buy the
scope with it, it costs $19.95. You can buy six rounds of ammunition
for $7.50. The gun is described in the catalog as a late military
issue, 6.5 Italian carbine….”

There are some TV reports that confused the issue and I thought I’d
present their transcriptions here for historical those interested in
the media presentation:

On NBC, the earliest report I could find came at 1:45 pm central time
from David Brinkley who said: “…the police found a rifle of some
foreign make…we don’t know what make, or who had it…”

At 2:14 pm, WBAP-TV reporter Tom Whelan stated: “…Dallas crime
laboratory Lt. J.C. Day went to the building [TSBD] a short time after
the shooting took place, and walked out with a British 303 rifle. The
rifle has a telescopic sight. Now the rifle was found on the 6th floor
of the building near a corner window. Also, police searching that area
found three empty 303 casings…”

At 2:23 pm, NBC anchor Bill Ryan reported: “…now we’re starting to get
conflicting reports on weapons. There is one that it was a 303 rifle
and that three spent 303 cartridges were found on the 5th floor of
this bulding… Now, there is another word that a Mauser has been found,
a 7.65 Mauser, it’s a German rifle which had a telescopic sight, with
one shell left in the chamber and three spent shells were found
nearby. What this means, whether this is the weapon or the other, we
don’t know. Possibly the Mauser is measured in millimeters and may
come close to a 303….”

At 7:30 pm, NBC’s Frank McGee stated: “…they found the rifle partly
hidden behind some books. It was a bolt-action model, we still do not
know exactly what kind of rifle it was. We’ve had conflicting reports
throughout the afternoon: Some saying that it was British, others that
it was German, even Japanese…”

Sometime in very early Saturday morning before ABC signed off, Bob
Clark was reporting from WFAA-TV while a film showing the discovery of
the rifle was playing: “…this is the gun that fired the shots, it’s a…
there have been conflicting reports whether it’s a German make or… a
gun that was manufactured in Argentina…”

These were the reports that preceded Saturday, Nov. 23 coverage that I
could dig up.
Anthony Marsh
2011-08-01 23:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clubking01
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It is not clear from a video I have what time Saturday, but it was
definitely sometime on Saturday NOT Sunday that the Mannlicher-Carcano
was identified. My guess is that it was released by police sometime
The video I uploaded shows the clock time as 6:16. But Day only says the
rifle was made in Italy. He had not yet figured out the model.
Post by Clubking01
during the day Saturday and that ABC?s Chicago affiliate WLS-TV then
reported on it later in the day as it had local interest. WLS anchor
Frank Reynolds stated at the end of the report: ?so we come to the end
of the second day of this nightmare??., indicating it was the end of
the day Saturday.
As the report began, Reynolds stated that ??from the Dallas Police
that the gun used to kill President Kennedy yesterday, was purchased
from a sporting goods company here in Chicago. The killer ordered the
gun through the mail??
Not good enough. The CIA memo from Italy said that Oswald bought a Mauser
from Klein's. His Italian sources were saying to him, "Don't try to bring
Italy into this. It wasn't even one of our rifles, it was a German rifle,
so blame the Germans."
Post by Clubking01
They go on to have a report from the Seneca Hotel in Chicago where
Milton Klein, owner of Klein?s Sporting Goods lived, but for obvious
reasons was not talking to reporters. The WLS reporter there held up
the actual catalog, described as the Winter 1963/Spring 1964 edition,
?On page 10 of that catalog, listed is the very rifle that was
purchased by Lee Harvey Oswald, under the name of A. Hidell. It?s very
simple to purchase this gun, it only costs $12.78. If you buy the
scope with it, it costs $19.95. You can buy six rounds of ammunition
for $7.50. The gun is described in the catalog as a late military
issue, 6.5 Italian carbine?.?
I'd be interested to see the clip showing a catalog. Oswald ripped the
coupon out of a gun MAGAZINE. It was just an ad on a full page. And I have
rarely seen the Klein's ads in the earliest pages. And I seriously doubt
that the ad said the ammo cost only $7.50 for 6 rounds. The Klein's ad was
$7.50 for 108 rounds. That is the old original SMI ammo. The Italian ammo
is packaged in groups of 6 bullets.
Post by Clubking01
There are some TV reports that confused the issue and I thought I?d
present their transcriptions here for historical those interested in
On NBC, the earliest report I could find came at 1:45 pm central time
from David Brinkley who said: ??the police found a rifle of some
foreign make?we don?t know what make, or who had it??
At 2:14 pm, WBAP-TV reporter Tom Whelan stated: ??Dallas crime
laboratory Lt. J.C. Day went to the building [TSBD] a short time after
the shooting took place, and walked out with a British 303 rifle. The
rifle has a telescopic sight. Now the rifle was found on the 6th floor
of the building near a corner window. Also, police searching that area
found three empty 303 casings??
At 2:23 pm, NBC anchor Bill Ryan reported: ??now we?re starting to get
conflicting reports on weapons. There is one that it was a 303 rifle
and that three spent 303 cartridges were found on the 5th floor of
this bulding? Now, there is another word that a Mauser has been found,
a 7.65 Mauser, it?s a German rifle which had a telescopic sight, with
one shell left in the chamber and three spent shells were found
nearby. What this means, whether this is the weapon or the other, we
don?t know. Possibly the Mauser is measured in millimeters and may
come close to a 303?.?
At 7:30 pm, NBC?s Frank McGee stated: ??they found the rifle partly
hidden behind some books. It was a bolt-action model, we still do not
know exactly what kind of rifle it was. We?ve had conflicting reports
throughout the afternoon: Some saying that it was British, others that
it was German, even Japanese??
Sometime in very early Saturday morning before ABC signed off, Bob
Clark was reporting from WFAA-TV while a film showing the discovery of
the rifle was playing: ??this is the gun that fired the shots, it?s a?
there have been conflicting reports whether it?s a German make or? a
gun that was manufactured in Argentina??
These were the reports that preceded Saturday, Nov. 23 coverage that I
could dig up.
Do you have all the network and local TV coverage?
Do you have As It Happened?
I was going to transfer all my VHS tapes onto DVD, but the DVD recorder
broke and it is impossible to get the replacement part now.
Clubking01
2011-08-02 13:45:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Clubking01
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It is not clear from a video I have what time Saturday, but it was
definitely sometime on Saturday NOT Sunday that the Mannlicher-Carcano
was identified. My guess is that it was released by police sometime
The video I uploaded shows the clock time as 6:16. But Day only says the
rifle was made in Italy. He had not yet figured out the model.
Post by Clubking01
during the day Saturday and that ABC?s Chicago affiliate WLS-TV then
reported on it later in the day as it had local interest. WLS anchor
Frank Reynolds stated at the end of the report: ?so we come to the end
of the second day of this nightmare??., indicating it was the end of
the day Saturday.
As the report began, Reynolds stated that ??from the Dallas Police
that the gun used to kill President Kennedy yesterday, was purchased
from a sporting goods company here in Chicago. The killer ordered the
gun through the mail??
Not good enough. The CIA memo from Italy said that Oswald bought a Mauser
from Klein's. His Italian sources were saying to him, "Don't try to bring
Italy into this. It wasn't even one of our rifles, it was a German rifle,
so blame the Germans."
Post by Clubking01
They go on to have a report from the Seneca Hotel in Chicago where
Milton Klein, owner of Klein?s Sporting Goods lived, but for obvious
reasons was not talking to reporters. The WLS reporter there held up
the actual catalog, described as the Winter 1963/Spring 1964 edition,
?On page 10 of that catalog, listed is the very rifle that was
purchased by Lee Harvey Oswald, under the name of A. Hidell. It?s very
simple to purchase this gun, it only costs $12.78. If you buy the
scope with it, it costs $19.95. You can buy six rounds of ammunition
for $7.50. The gun is described in the catalog as a late military
issue, 6.5 Italian carbine?.?
I'd be interested to see the clip showing a catalog. Oswald ripped the
coupon out of a gun MAGAZINE. It was just an ad on a full page. And I have
rarely seen the Klein's ads in the earliest pages. And I seriously doubt
that the ad said the ammo cost only $7.50 for 6 rounds. The Klein's ad was
$7.50 for 108 rounds. That is the old original SMI ammo. The Italian ammo
is packaged in groups of 6 bullets.
Post by Clubking01
There are some TV reports that confused the issue and I thought I?d
present their transcriptions here for historical those interested in
On NBC, the earliest report I could find came at 1:45 pm central time
from David Brinkley who said: ??the police found a rifle of some
foreign make?we don?t know what make, or who had it??
At 2:14 pm, WBAP-TV reporter Tom Whelan stated: ??Dallas crime
laboratory Lt. J.C. Day went to the building [TSBD] a short time after
the shooting took place, and walked out with a British 303 rifle. The
rifle has a telescopic sight. Now the rifle was found on the 6th floor
of the building near a corner window. Also, police searching that area
found three empty 303 casings??
At 2:23 pm, NBC anchor Bill Ryan reported: ??now we?re starting to get
conflicting reports on weapons. There is one that it was a 303 rifle
and that three spent 303 cartridges were found on the 5th floor of
this bulding? Now, there is another word that a Mauser has been found,
a 7.65 Mauser, it?s a German rifle which had a telescopic sight, with
one shell left in the chamber and three spent shells were found
nearby. What this means, whether this is the weapon or the other, we
don?t know. Possibly the Mauser is measured in millimeters and may
come close to a 303?.?
At 7:30 pm, NBC?s Frank McGee stated: ??they found the rifle partly
hidden behind some books. It was a bolt-action model, we still do not
know exactly what kind of rifle it was. We?ve had conflicting reports
throughout the afternoon: Some saying that it was British, others that
it was German, even Japanese??
Sometime in very early Saturday morning before ABC signed off, Bob
Clark was reporting from WFAA-TV while a film showing the discovery of
the rifle was playing: ??this is the gun that fired the shots, it?s a?
there have been conflicting reports whether it?s a German make or? a
gun that was manufactured in Argentina??
These were the reports that preceded Saturday, Nov. 23 coverage that I
could dig up.
Do you have all the network and local TV coverage?
Do you have As It Happened?
I was going to transfer all my VHS tapes onto DVD, but the DVD recorder
broke and it is impossible to get the replacement part now.
Yeah, I should have said "a catalog", instead of "the catalog" since
Oswald did take the coupon from a magazine not a Klein's catalog.

I do not have video of all local or network coverage but did use "As
it Happened" to get the NBC transcriptions above. The ABC coverage is
from a series called "The Assassination Tapes", which was released by
WFAA-TV in 1983, and has several hours of coverage spanning the entire
weekend, including some ABC network stuff. Included in this series,
for some reason, was the brief WLS report I quoted above. I do have it
on DVD, but do not know if it can be uploaded.
Anthony Marsh
2011-08-02 22:33:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clubking01
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Clubking01
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It is not clear from a video I have what time Saturday, but it was
definitely sometime on Saturday NOT Sunday that the Mannlicher-Carcano
was identified. My guess is that it was released by police sometime
The video I uploaded shows the clock time as 6:16. But Day only says the
rifle was made in Italy. He had not yet figured out the model.
Post by Clubking01
during the day Saturday and that ABC?s Chicago affiliate WLS-TV then
reported on it later in the day as it had local interest. WLS anchor
Frank Reynolds stated at the end of the report: ?so we come to the end
of the second day of this nightmare??., indicating it was the end of
the day Saturday.
As the report began, Reynolds stated that ??from the Dallas Police
that the gun used to kill President Kennedy yesterday, was purchased
from a sporting goods company here in Chicago. The killer ordered the
gun through the mail??
Not good enough. The CIA memo from Italy said that Oswald bought a Mauser
from Klein's. His Italian sources were saying to him, "Don't try to bring
Italy into this. It wasn't even one of our rifles, it was a German rifle,
so blame the Germans."
Post by Clubking01
They go on to have a report from the Seneca Hotel in Chicago where
Milton Klein, owner of Klein?s Sporting Goods lived, but for obvious
reasons was not talking to reporters. The WLS reporter there held up
the actual catalog, described as the Winter 1963/Spring 1964 edition,
?On page 10 of that catalog, listed is the very rifle that was
purchased by Lee Harvey Oswald, under the name of A. Hidell. It?s very
simple to purchase this gun, it only costs $12.78. If you buy the
scope with it, it costs $19.95. You can buy six rounds of ammunition
for $7.50. The gun is described in the catalog as a late military
issue, 6.5 Italian carbine?.?
I'd be interested to see the clip showing a catalog. Oswald ripped the
coupon out of a gun MAGAZINE. It was just an ad on a full page. And I have
rarely seen the Klein's ads in the earliest pages. And I seriously doubt
that the ad said the ammo cost only $7.50 for 6 rounds. The Klein's ad was
$7.50 for 108 rounds. That is the old original SMI ammo. The Italian ammo
is packaged in groups of 6 bullets.
Post by Clubking01
There are some TV reports that confused the issue and I thought I?d
present their transcriptions here for historical those interested in
On NBC, the earliest report I could find came at 1:45 pm central time
from David Brinkley who said: ??the police found a rifle of some
foreign make?we don?t know what make, or who had it??
At 2:14 pm, WBAP-TV reporter Tom Whelan stated: ??Dallas crime
laboratory Lt. J.C. Day went to the building [TSBD] a short time after
the shooting took place, and walked out with a British 303 rifle. The
rifle has a telescopic sight. Now the rifle was found on the 6th floor
of the building near a corner window. Also, police searching that area
found three empty 303 casings??
At 2:23 pm, NBC anchor Bill Ryan reported: ??now we?re starting to get
conflicting reports on weapons. There is one that it was a 303 rifle
and that three spent 303 cartridges were found on the 5th floor of
this bulding? Now, there is another word that a Mauser has been found,
a 7.65 Mauser, it?s a German rifle which had a telescopic sight, with
one shell left in the chamber and three spent shells were found
nearby. What this means, whether this is the weapon or the other, we
don?t know. Possibly the Mauser is measured in millimeters and may
come close to a 303?.?
At 7:30 pm, NBC?s Frank McGee stated: ??they found the rifle partly
hidden behind some books. It was a bolt-action model, we still do not
know exactly what kind of rifle it was. We?ve had conflicting reports
throughout the afternoon: Some saying that it was British, others that
it was German, even Japanese??
Sometime in very early Saturday morning before ABC signed off, Bob
Clark was reporting from WFAA-TV while a film showing the discovery of
the rifle was playing: ??this is the gun that fired the shots, it?s a?
there have been conflicting reports whether it?s a German make or? a
gun that was manufactured in Argentina??
These were the reports that preceded Saturday, Nov. 23 coverage that I
could dig up.
Do you have all the network and local TV coverage?
Do you have As It Happened?
I was going to transfer all my VHS tapes onto DVD, but the DVD recorder
broke and it is impossible to get the replacement part now.
Yeah, I should have said "a catalog", instead of "the catalog" since
Oswald did take the coupon from a magazine not a Klein's catalog.
I do not have video of all local or network coverage but did use "As
it Happened" to get the NBC transcriptions above. The ABC coverage is
from a series called "The Assassination Tapes", which was released by
WFAA-TV in 1983, and has several hours of coverage spanning the entire
weekend, including some ABC network stuff. Included in this series,
for some reason, was the brief WLS report I quoted above. I do have it
on DVD, but do not know if it can be uploaded.
Thanks for the extra details. I don't remember having it on DVD. I think
I only have it on tape.
If you are interested in trading DVDs I may have some rare DVDs which
you have never seen.
Clubking01
2011-08-02 17:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Clubking01
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It is not clear from a video I have what time Saturday, but it was
definitely sometime on Saturday NOT Sunday that the Mannlicher-Carcano
was identified. My guess is that it was released by police sometime
The video I uploaded shows the clock time as 6:16. But Day only says the
rifle was made in Italy. He had not yet figured out the model.
Post by Clubking01
during the day Saturday and that ABC?s Chicago affiliate WLS-TV then
reported on it later in the day as it had local interest. WLS anchor
Frank Reynolds stated at the end of the report: ?so we come to the end
of the second day of this nightmare??., indicating it was the end of
the day Saturday.
As the report began, Reynolds stated that ??from the Dallas Police
that the gun used to kill President Kennedy yesterday, was purchased
from a sporting goods company here in Chicago. The killer ordered the
gun through the mail??
Not good enough. The CIA memo from Italy said that Oswald bought a Mauser
from Klein's. His Italian sources were saying to him, "Don't try to bring
Italy into this. It wasn't even one of our rifles, it was a German rifle,
so blame the Germans."
Post by Clubking01
They go on to have a report from the Seneca Hotel in Chicago where
Milton Klein, owner of Klein?s Sporting Goods lived, but for obvious
reasons was not talking to reporters. The WLS reporter there held up
the actual catalog, described as the Winter 1963/Spring 1964 edition,
?On page 10 of that catalog, listed is the very rifle that was
purchased by Lee Harvey Oswald, under the name of A. Hidell. It?s very
simple to purchase this gun, it only costs $12.78. If you buy the
scope with it, it costs $19.95. You can buy six rounds of ammunition
for $7.50. The gun is described in the catalog as a late military
issue, 6.5 Italian carbine?.?
I'd be interested to see the clip showing a catalog. Oswald ripped the
coupon out of a gun MAGAZINE. It was just an ad on a full page. And I have
rarely seen the Klein's ads in the earliest pages. And I seriously doubt
that the ad said the ammo cost only $7.50 for 6 rounds. The Klein's ad was
$7.50 for 108 rounds. That is the old original SMI ammo. The Italian ammo
is packaged in groups of 6 bullets.
I was able to upload this video to Youtube:


Anthony Marsh
2011-08-02 20:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clubking01
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Clubking01
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
It is not clear from a video I have what time Saturday, but it was
definitely sometime on Saturday NOT Sunday that the Mannlicher-Carcano
was identified. My guess is that it was released by police sometime
The video I uploaded shows the clock time as 6:16. But Day only says the
rifle was made in Italy. He had not yet figured out the model.
Post by Clubking01
during the day Saturday and that ABC?s Chicago affiliate WLS-TV then
reported on it later in the day as it had local interest. WLS anchor
Frank Reynolds stated at the end of the report: ?so we come to the end
of the second day of this nightmare??., indicating it was the end of
the day Saturday.
As the report began, Reynolds stated that ??from the Dallas Police
that the gun used to kill President Kennedy yesterday, was purchased
from a sporting goods company here in Chicago. The killer ordered the
gun through the mail??
Not good enough. The CIA memo from Italy said that Oswald bought a Mauser
from Klein's. His Italian sources were saying to him, "Don't try to bring
Italy into this. It wasn't even one of our rifles, it was a German rifle,
so blame the Germans."
Post by Clubking01
They go on to have a report from the Seneca Hotel in Chicago where
Milton Klein, owner of Klein?s Sporting Goods lived, but for obvious
reasons was not talking to reporters. The WLS reporter there held up
the actual catalog, described as the Winter 1963/Spring 1964 edition,
?On page 10 of that catalog, listed is the very rifle that was
purchased by Lee Harvey Oswald, under the name of A. Hidell. It?s very
simple to purchase this gun, it only costs $12.78. If you buy the
scope with it, it costs $19.95. You can buy six rounds of ammunition
for $7.50. The gun is described in the catalog as a late military
issue, 6.5 Italian carbine?.?
I'd be interested to see the clip showing a catalog. Oswald ripped the
coupon out of a gun MAGAZINE. It was just an ad on a full page. And I have
rarely seen the Klein's ads in the earliest pages. And I seriously doubt
that the ad said the ammo cost only $7.50 for 6 rounds. The Klein's ad was
$7.50 for 108 rounds. That is the old original SMI ammo. The Italian ammo
is packaged in groups of 6 bullets.
http://youtu.be/k750RPNd88w
Thanks. That worked ok.

Looking at the ad and listening to his description it is clear that this
ad appeared later and is not the one that Oswald used to order the rifle.
But it indeed is the Klein's catalog not a gun magazine. When the reporter
reads the ad it says 40" coverall, but still says Carbine. That fits in
with the changes Klein's made to their ad in April, after Oswald had
ordered his carbine which was advertised as 36" overall. He must have read
the ad wrong though. It did not say 6 rounds for $7.50.
Hank Sienzant
2011-08-02 04:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by TLR
We all known about the first reports of the rifle being a Mauser. I've
been trying to determine exactly when it was first described in the press
as a Mannlicher-Carcano. Nov 23? Nov 24? Does anyone know who told the
press about the change in the rifle?
I imagine someone here can answer that, but quite simply it doesn't
matter, because the evidence is clear that the only rifle found in the
Depository was Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano, and the initial ID of a Mauser
was simply a mistake.

1. It was photographed in place by Detective Studebaker before being
handled by anyone. Loading Image...

1. The rifle was filmed in the Depository by Tom Alyea when it was
discovered. The House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA)
photographic panel examined that film and determined it was Oswald's
weapon that was pictured, to the exclusion of all other weapons in the
world. Here's a frame from that film: Loading Image...

2. The rifle was photographed when it was removed from the TSBD by several
newspaper photographers shortly after the assassination. The HSCA photo
panel concluded those photos show Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano. Here's the
location of one such photo (by William Allen):
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm (it also shows the clip,
dispelling another myth from conspiracy believers).

3. The rifle was photographed throughout the weekend numerous times as it
transported through the DPD. Again, the HSCA photo panel concluded those
photos show Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons in the
world. I trust you've seen some of those photos.

The photographic evidence establishes beyond any doubt that it was
Oswald's weapon that was recovered in the TSBD shortly after the
assassination, and nobody else's. It also establishes that any witnesses
that said they saw a Mauser were simply mistaken. The two weapons do bear
a resemblance, and in fact, the Mannlicher Carcano is based on the Mauser
design. Here is the a photo of the two rifles side by side:

Loading Image...

The HSCA's photo panel's conclusion was, "A comparison of identifying
marks that exist on the rifle as shown in photographs today with marks
shown on the rifle in photographs taken in 1963 indicates both that the
rifle in the Archives is the same weapon that Oswald is shown holding in
the backyard picture, and the same weapon that was seized by Dallas Police
and appears in various postassassination photographs."

Hank
aka Joe Zircon
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