Post by John McAdams Post by Ace Kefford Post by John McAdams Post by Ace Kefford Post by John McAdams Post by Ace Kefford Post by Anthony Marsh Post by email@example.com Post by claviger
Gaddafi was right about JFK
Horst Wessel Published on Oct 28, 2017
Why Claviger! I'm surprised to hear that you're a Blame-The-Jews JFK
conspiracy kook! But I am glad that you decided to come out of the closet.
Now Bibi knows he's got an enemy here.
Sometimes I hang up a pi??ata on the Newsgroup to see how people react.
Your snarky reaction was ignorant, but somewhat interesting.
I fully support the State of Israel and Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu is high
on my Most Admired Leaders of the World List. Older Liberals used to
support the Israelis but radical neoLiberals, who lean Far-To-The-Left,
now chastize and nitpick the tiny nation of Israel, who are besieged on
The Bible foretells this animosity in Genesis 12:3 and makes clear the
Jews are God's "Chosen People". The fact Israelis and Jews want nothing
to do with Christians doesn't matter. God has spoken and the faithful duty
of any Christian is to obey God's Word to read and heed Biblical Prophecy.
One problem is that some evangelical Christians want to fulfill Biblical
Prophecy to bring about Armageddon and the destruction of Israel to
cause the Second Coming of Christ.
I've always liked the idea among supposed Christians that we humans here
on earth can somehow by our actions jumpstart an occurrence that was
divinely predetermined. Seems a little theologically weak.
Secular types always attribute theologically weak arguments to
Christians (at least the conservative, evangelical ones) are strongly
It's the left that hates Israel.
Thanks for that sophisticated analysis!
But you do have to agree that the idea that people on earth now can
somehow cause a cosmically preordained event to happen sooner is
Depends on what you mean by "cosmically preordained."
God could give people free will to decide when and how something is
going to happen, notwithstanding that He has set things in motion that
point to that outcome.
But no Christian actually wants to do something to bring on
Armageddon. No Christian (except perhaps some U.S. nuclear-age
presidents who may have been Christian) thinks he has the power to do
"But no Christian actually wants to do something to bring on Armageddon. No Christian (except perhaps some U.S. nuclear-age presidents who may have been Christian) thinks he has the power to do that."
Wrong again, honey. Do some reading on evangelicals. Plenty of them
think they or their leaders should do events in this world in order to set
in motion Armageddon. If you mean, no TRUE Christians, of course you are
right, but I'm talking about those in the U.S. who claim to be Christians
in the loudest voices.
No, you have been reading militant athiests who latch onto the most
crazy, extreme evalgelicals they can find and try to protray them as
Post a statement from Rick Warren, Franklin Graham, James Kennedy, Max
Lucado or such.
There are some evangelical Christians who look forward to Armageddon
because that will bring the Second Coming.
Skip to content
Search the BBC
BBC News Navigation
US & Canada selected
Entertainment & Arts
US & Canada
Why do US evangelicals support Trump's Jerusalem policy?
By Owen Amos BBC News, Washington DC
5 January 2018
Share this with Facebook
Share this with Messenger
Share this with Twitter
Share this with Email
Image copyright AFP
Image caption Palestinians walking on a poster of Donald Trump and Vice
President Mike Pence in December
US Vice-President Mike Pence's trip to Israel has been postponed, amid
Palestinian protests against the US decision to recognise Jerusalem as
Israel's capital. But why does the move remain popular with evangelical
Christians in the US?
The Reverend Johnnie Moore, a 34-year-old evangelical Christian, is
closer than most to President Trump.
During the election campaign, he was co-chair of Mr Trump's evangelical
He has met the president and his team "several times" - most recently
last month - and speaks to the White House regularly.
In July, he even posted this picture of the president at prayer.
Image Copyright @JohnnieM @JohnnieM
So he seems a good person to ask. When Mr Trump recognised Jerusalem as
Israel's capital, did American evangelicals support him for Biblical
reasons, as has been reported?
Because of a belief in the Battle of Armageddon? The End Times? The
second coming of Jesus Christ, and a thousand years of peace?
Mr Moore laughs at the suggestion.
"I've never heard it come up once," he says. "Not once."
Evangelical Christians in the US
The biggest religious group in the US, exceeding Catholics and
Most common in southern states, including Tennessee, Alabama, and
Most evangelicals believe they have been "born again"
Evangelicals also believe in spreading the gospel, and leading
others to Christ
Vice-President Mike Pence describes himself as an evangelical Christian
Jerusalem is important to all Christians. But the city, and Israel, is
especially significant to some.
This is where the End Times comes in.
"There's a segment of Christianity that believes the creation of the
state of Israel (in 1948) was the fulfilment of prophecy," says Prof
Christopher Rollston from George Washington University.
"Not just a good thing - but the fulfilment of prophecy."
The idea was popularised in a best-selling book called The Late, Great
Planet Earth, released in 1970.
The slim paperback, by American author Hal Lindsey, said world events -
including the creation of Israel - were proving the Bible correct.
To some Christians, the book validated their beliefs. It also meant the
end of the world as we know it - which the Bible also predicts - was near.
What makes Jerusalem so holy?
Trump's unlikely Christian covenant
The idea is older than Hal Lindsey, but he helped popularise it. The
book sold millions of copies.
Not all Evangelicals share this apocalyptic view. But some do, including
a group called premillennialists.
They believe in a Great Tribulation - that is, a period of war and
destruction - before a thousand years of peace.
"They believe there will be, ultimately, an apocalyptic end of the age,"
says Prof Rollston. "Replete with the Battle of Armageddon, the Mark of
the Beast, these sorts of things."
So what is the connection to End Times and Donald Trump recognising
Jerusalem as Israel's capital?
Again, says Prof Rollston, it stems from the belief that Israel's
creation was foretold in the Bible.
"Anything that's supportive of the modern state of Israel, for them is a
good thing," he says. "It's not data driven."
Prof Rollston goes to an Episcopal (Anglican) church, but grew up around
evangelicalism. He finds premillennialism "entirely unconvincing and a
misappropriation of scripture".
"They will cite this text or that text," he says. "But they're citing it
entirely out of context."
Media captionMr Trump said his Jerusalem decision is in the best
interest of peace
The Reverend Johnnie Moore agrees that some evangelicals hold
premillennial, or dispensationalist, beliefs. But he thinks it's a
"very, very small group", whose influence is exaggerated.
"I've seen all the stories," he says. "'Evangelicals want Armageddon' or
'Evangelicals want the Rapture'.
"I think that is Exhibit A of people on the outside coming to
conclusions about what evangelicals actually think."
Evangelicals did discuss Jerusalem in the White House. But the
discussions, says Mr Moore, were political - not theological.
"The leaders know what they're talking about from experience," he says.
"They follow politics in the region, they know the public figures, they
read the papers, they have informed foreign policy views.
"This was geo-political opinion, more than theology."
The message is echoed by David Brog, executive director of Christians
United for Israel.
"There is a widespread myth that Christians support Israel to speed the
End Times," he says. "That's simply not true.
"Anyone who understands the theology / eschatology of pro-Israel
Christians knows they believe they are powerless to change the date of
"If they are powerless to speed this day, their support for Israel must
be driven by other motives.
"In the case of Jerusalem, we support President Trump's decision because
it is an act of historic justice - and an overdue recognition of modern
Trump's Jerusalem move: Key takeaways
Clashes erupt over US Jerusalem move
Like David Brog, Johnnie Moore cites non-theological reasons for
supporting Mr Trump's policy.
The first is that Congress passed a law in 1995 recognising Jerusalem as
Israel's capital, but successive presidents have waived it on national
"This is a law that has been defied by presidents again and again and
again," he says. "They have defied a congressional mandate."
He also thinks the US shouldn't dispute where a country says its capital
"We don't super-impose on any other nation in the world where their
capital is going to be," he says. "This (Jerusalem) is the seat of
government of the state of Israel."
Thirdly, he doesn't believe Mr Trump's policy will harm the peace process.
"The Palestinians have referred to East Jerusalem to be the capital of a
Palestinian state," he says. "Which implies that at least West Jerusalem
is going to be the capital of the Israeli state.
"If you read the whole of the president's comments when he made the
announcement, he actually said it was up the parties to decide the
future of Jerusalem."
Media captionWhy the ancient city of Jerusalem is so important
Mr Moore visited Israel after Mr Trump's announcement and sat down with
a mukhtar (a local Arab leader) in east Jerusalem.
"The mukhtar said 'What's changed? This has been the capital of Israel.
Israel's government is here. The Knesset (Israeli parliament) is here.
Israel's prime minister is here.'
"And he's a Muslim mukhtar in east Jerusalem."
(The mukhtar's view is at odds with other Palestinians - and the wider
Arab world - who protested against President Trump's decision).
Mr Moore is frustrated that - in his opinion - the evangelical position
has been mis-reported.
Some people don't understand their position, he says. But some do - and
instead choose to "diminish the credibility of the evangelical community".
"We're normal people," he says. "We have modern views of things.
"We talk to other people, we're peacemakers, we're bridge builders.
We're not apocalyptic."
Post by John McAdams