Discussion:
Jackie on the Trunk
Add Reply
Robert Harris
2017-06-02 21:04:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories"
about why Mrs. Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back
across the trunk.

This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie
reached back across the trunk to recover a piece of brain
tissue that she saw blown to the rear by a second head shot.

You can see that happen in both the Zapruder and Nix films:

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her
say immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her
husband's brains in her hand.

She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she
turned it over to Dr. Jenkins.

http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html




Robert Harris
Anthony Marsh
2017-06-03 12:41:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories" about why Mrs.
Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie reached back
across the trunk to recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw blown
to the rear by a second head shot.
False. Jackie did not pick up anything from the trunk.
There was plenty of debris in the back seat.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her say
immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her husband's brains
in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she turned it
over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
Robert Harris
Mitch Todd
2017-06-06 03:03:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories" about why Mrs.
Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie reached back
across the trunk to recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw blown
to the rear by a second head shot.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her say
immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her husband's brains
in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she turned it
over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.


Anyway, your article rests on three assertions. The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing something
off of the trunk. The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."

None of these prove anything. In fact, the first two argue
*against* your conclusion.

First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right hand.
She's not picking anything up with her forearm, and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs anything that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film, even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?

Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not "grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that. Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto. Similarly, consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase "coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's account.
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo. Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.

And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it, how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?

Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains. Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
Robert Harris
2017-06-06 19:07:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mitch Todd
Post by Robert Harris
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous
"theories" about why Mrs. Kennedy rose from her
seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was
correct. Jackie reached back across the trunk to
recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw
blown to the rear by a second head shot.
You can see that happen in both the Zapruder and
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the
Connallys heard her say immediately, after
sitting back down, that she had her husband's
brains in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland,
where she turned it over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be
referring to a post I made 2 months ago, which you
replied to over three weeks later.

I usually only spend a week or two in a thread
unless something interesting is going on.
Post by Mitch Todd
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions.
The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing
something
off of the trunk.
Yes, that is also true of the Nix film.
Post by Mitch Todd
The second is that Clint Hill
testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off
the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The
third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything.
LOL!!

This is gonna be good.

I guess Clint Hill was just delusional that day.
Why should we believe Hill who was only inches
from her at the time, when we have a nutter
fanatic like you?
Post by Mitch Todd
In fact, the first
two argue
*against* your conclusion.
Well, that's two consecutive blurtations. Let's
see if they are the last.
Post by Mitch Todd
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right
hand.
Yes. That is correct.
Post by Mitch Todd
She's not picking anything up with her forearm,
and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers
stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs
anything
That is incorrect.

She wasn't grabbing a baseball. She was grabbing
brain tissue.

Think Jello.

She obviously, did not pick it up immediately. She
just kept it under her hand. She could only pick
it up with her fingers. You can see that happen at
frame 392.

Loading Image...

She was not supporting herself with her right hand
at that instant. If she was, she would have had
the heal of her hand down.

So why would her fingers be in that position?
Post by Mitch Todd
that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of
flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film,
We see virtually no tissue ANYWHERE in the
Zapruder film. Now, you can either sign up with
team Fetzer or acknowledge that Zapruder's camera
just couldn't pick up that kind of detail.

There is no doubt that tissue was found all over
the limo, including the trunk.

From the testimony of SAIC Frazier at the Shaw trial:

"We found blood and tissue all over the outside
areas of the vehicle from the hood ornament, over
the complete area of the hood, on the outside of
the windshield, also on the inside surface of the
windshield, and all over the entire exterior
portion of the car, that is, the side rails down
both sides of the car, and of course considerable
quantities inside the car and on the trunk lid area."

Clint Hill also stated that he was spattered by
tissue and blood, as did motorcyble officer
Hargis, who described being struck with such force
that he thought he might have been hit by a bullet.
Post by Mitch Todd
even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
It was under her hand and then in it.
Post by Mitch Todd
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not
"grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that.
Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to
reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not
grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto.
LOL!!

To be "reaching for something" = trying grab it.

And that's exactly what she did.
Post by Mitch Todd
Similarly,
consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the
car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase
"coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat
Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's
account.
More blurtations. Surprise, surprise:-)

There was a LOT of stuff back there and he was
obviously mistaken about which one she was going for.

Like us, he didn't see her immediately pick it up,
so it was perfectly natural that he thought she
missed whatever she was trying to retrieve.
Post by Mitch Todd
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for
her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo.
Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the
right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right
tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right
rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as
far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just
didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
You seem to think that if you repeat the same
argument enough times, it will come true.

What she grabbed or failed to grab, had to have
been the very last thing that Hill was worried about.

And at that instant, he only saw her hand flat on
the trunk's surface. His error was predictable.

Having made a career out of telling us how
unreliable witnesses are, I'm sure you can wrap
your head around that concept:-)
Post by Mitch Todd
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not
have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't
actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching
what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it,
how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
We already know there was all kinds of blood and
tissue back there. The FBI confirmed that fact.
Post by Mitch Todd
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was
holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she
got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact
doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's
remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the
limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with
various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains.
Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of
knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
Fortunately however, we know WHEN she got it.
Nellie heard her say she had her husband's brains
in her hand - "several times".

(quote)

...and then after the third shot she said, "they
have killed my husband. I have his brains in my
hand" and she repeated that several times

(unquote)

But John Connally only heard it once.

"I heard her say one time, 'I have got his brains
in my hand.'"

So, why did he only hear it once? The answer is
simple.

"At about that time, we began to pull out of the
cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost
consciousness and didn't regain consciousness
until we got to the hospital"

From the time Jackie sat down to the time the
limo started to pull "out of line" to the right,
was no more than 3 seconds.

She just didn't have time to find a piece of
tissue, pick it up and then make that statement.

Also, consider the fact that she said "they have
killed my husband".

That is not something she would have said 2
minutes later. She had obviously, just discovered
that his head was blown apart.

These statements could only have come immediately,
after she sat back down.



Robert Harris
Mitch Todd
2017-06-11 21:16:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mitch Todd
Post by Robert Harris
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous
"theories" about why Mrs. Kennedy rose from her
seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was
correct. Jackie reached back across the trunk to
recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw
blown to the rear by a second head shot.
You can see that happen in both the Zapruder and
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the
Connallys heard her say immediately, after
sitting back down, that she had her husband's
brains in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland,
where she turned it over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be referring to a post I made 2
months ago, which you replied to over three weeks later.
I usually only spend a week or two in a thread unless something
interesting is going on.
Aha. The old freshness-date defense. Works for
supermarkets, but not quite as effective on
usenet.
Post by Mitch Todd
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions.
The first is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie
grabbing something off of the trunk.
Yes, that is also true of the Nix film.
Post by Mitch Todd
The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off
the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear
tail." The third is Mrs Kennedy's well-attested
cry, "They have killed my husband. I have his
brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything.
LOL!!
This is gonna be good.
I guess Clint Hill was just delusional that day. Why should we believe
Hill who was only inches from her at the time, when we have a nutter
fanatic like you?
Like I said, he didn't say that she grabbed anything,
but just reached for something that was coming off
of he rear of the car. The only delusional person in
this is you as you try to force yourself roughly on
Hill's statement.
Post by Mitch Todd
In fact, the first two argue *against* your conclusion.
Well, that's two consecutive blurtations. Let's see if they are the last.
Post by Mitch Todd
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right
hand.
Yes. That is correct.
To be specific, her right hand hits the rear deck in
frame 366. After that, she slides it across the trunklid
to the rear until frame 380. Then she pulls it back
and uses it to help push herself back into the back
seat. her fingers are still flat against the trunklid
as late as frame 386, if not later (the frames between
286 and 394 are blurry, so it's hard to tell)
Post by Mitch Todd
She's not picking anything up with her forearm,
and her right hand lands palm down with her fingers
stretched out and flat on the sheetmetal. No one >> grabs anything
That is incorrect.
She wasn't grabbing a baseball. She was grabbing brain tissue.
Think Jello.
I've grabbed plenty of Jello in my life. I've always used
my fingers. Slapping your palm down on the stuff completely
fails to grab it, and also makes a mess.
She obviously, did not pick it up immediately. She just kept it under
her hand. She could only pick it up with her fingers. You can see that
happen at frame 392.
http://jfkhistory.com/392.png
She was not supporting herself with her right hand at that instant. If
she was, she would have had the heal of her hand down.
So why would her fingers be in that position?
So, your argument rests on what you claim to
see in a grainy enlargement of a blurry frame
where Jackie's right hand is a featureless,
shadow blob in the image. But you somehow
can tell what her fingers are doing using your
Kryptonian x-ray vision. I hope you're not
expecting anyone else to believe you.
Post by Mitch Todd
that way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of
flesh are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film,
We see virtually no tissue ANYWHERE in the Zapruder film. Now, you can
either sign up with team Fetzer or acknowledge that Zapruder's camera
just couldn't pick up that kind of detail.
There is no doubt that tissue was found all over the limo, including the
trunk.
The thing is, you've asserted that she saw it
fly out, and clambered out over the trunklid
to retrieve it. For that to happen, it had to be
large enough for her to see it, notice it, and
know immediately it was important enough to go
out and get. It had to be fairly large, larger than
the other scraps of flesh that she ignored to
go for that one. How would a piece that large
not be visible somehow the film.
"We found blood and tissue all over the outside areas of the vehicle
from the hood ornament, over the complete area of the hood, on the
outside of the windshield, also on the inside surface of the windshield,
and all over the entire exterior portion of the car, that is, the side
rails down both sides of the car, and of course considerable quantities
inside the car and on the trunk lid area."
Clint Hill also stated that he was spattered by tissue and blood, as did
motorcyble officer Hargis, who described being struck with such force
that he thought he might have been hit by a bullet.
You are correct. Now, how about telling us, how large
were those pieces that they found on the trunklid.
And how large, do you suppose, would a chunk of brain
have to be for Jackie Kennedy to launch herself onto
the trunk of a moving car to retrieve?
Post by Mitch Todd
even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
It was under her hand and then in it.
In other words, neither you nor anyone else ever
saw her grab anything in film, or in real life.
All you have left is to assert it and hope the
rest of us don't look carefully at what you're
trying to put over.
Post by Mitch Todd
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not
"grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that.
Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to
reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not
grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto.
LOL!!
To be "reaching for something" = trying grab it.
And that's exactly what she did.
Again, trying to grab isn't grabbing. In fact,
trying to grab" is a staple of sports blooper
reels.
Post by Mitch Todd
Similarly, consider his "something coming off of
the rear bumper of the car>> car, the right rear tail." In
particular, the phrase
Post by Mitch Todd
"coming off of." Whatever the "something" was, it >> made a compleat Elvis of itself and left the>> proverbial building
in Hill's account.
More blurtations. Surprise, surprise:-)
There was a LOT of stuff back there and he was obviously mistaken about
which one she was going for.
Like us, he didn't see her immediately pick it up, so it was perfectly
natural that he thought she missed whatever she was trying to retrieve.
Again, how big was "all that stuff?" And why did he
think it was something falling off of the car if
there was so much easily-identifiable stuff on the
trunk?
Post by Mitch Todd
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for
her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo.
Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the
right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right
tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right
rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as
far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just
didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
You seem to think that if you repeat the same argument enough times, it
will come true.
I'll take that as a high compliment from you,
given your own habits. High praise, indeed!
What she grabbed or failed to grab, had to have been the very last thing
that Hill was worried about.
And at that instant, he only saw her hand flat on the trunk's surface.
His error was predictable.
You've basically just admitted that Hill, your prime
witness, say he didn't see her grab anything. You're
still the gift that keeps on giving!
Having made a career out of telling us how unreliable witnesses are, I'm
sure you can wrap your head around that concept:-)
And now you assert that Hill is an unreliable witness.
I'm gonna start calling you Santa Claus if you keep this
up!
Post by Mitch Todd
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not
have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't
actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching
what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it,
how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
We already know there was all kinds of blood and tissue back there. The
FBI confirmed that fact.
Yep, but in what form, and in what sizes? For
that matter, why didn't Hill say that Mrs. K
was "trying to get one of those pieces of brain
scattered all over the trunk" if that were the
case? I'll bet the stuff left on the trunk was
mostly blood with tiny bits here and there. Not
something that would have attracted Jackie's
attention on the spur of the moment.
Post by Mitch Todd
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was
holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she
got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact
doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's
remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the
limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with
various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains.
Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of
knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
Fortunately however, we know WHEN she got it. Nellie heard her say she
had her husband's brains in her hand - "several times".
(quote)
...and then after the third shot she said, "they have killed my husband.
I have his brains in my hand" and she repeated that several times
(unquote)
But John Connally only heard it once.
"I heard her say one time, 'I have got his brains in my hand.'"
So, why did he only hear it once? The answer is simple.
"At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the
line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we
got to the hospital"
From the time Jackie sat down to the time the limo started to pull "out
of line" to the right, was no more than 3 seconds.
She just didn't have time to find a piece of tissue, pick it up and then
make that statement.
Also, consider the fact that she said "they have killed my husband".
That is not something she would have said 2 minutes later. She had
obviously, just discovered that his head was blown apart.
These statements could only have come immediately, after she sat back down.
Let's go back to what Governor Connally said. Here it is, including the
stuff you left out:

"When [Nellie] pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still
breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going
to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right.
After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill,
get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a
button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us
to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the
motorcycle police who were leading us. At about that time, we began to
pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and
didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital."

So, a lot more is going on in this time than you let on. He remembered
Nellie telling him that he was going to be all right a number of times.
More than a couple or a few, based on the phrase "kept telling me." And he
was able to pick out Kellerman talking to Greer, so a lot happened between
the third shot and when his memory blanked out. More than you seem to want
to admit.

Also, consider his memory of what he heard Mrs Kennedy say:

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the
third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband."

Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I
have got his brains in my hand."

The placement of "I heard her say one time" is interesting.
It sets "I have got his brains in my hand" off from "They
have killed my husband," just like one might say if Jackie
repeated "they have killed my husband" some number of times
before saying "I have his brains in my hand." A lot like
what Nellie reported. And indicative that Connally remained
conscious longer than you wanna think.

While I'm at it, have you ever considered what he meant by
"pull out of the line?" At the time, Connally was on the floor
between the front seat and the jump seats with his wife on
top of him, so he can't see what was going on. What if he
meant the turn onto the Stemmons on ramp? That's the first
major direction change they would have made, and I doubt
that Connally knew enough detail about either the intended
motorcade route (or visited Dallas enough that he knew the
particulars of Dallas' roadway grid) to have instantly
recognized the route. Enough for Jackie to be back in her seat
and pick up one of the myriad bits of her husband and
lament.

To top it off, I've already pointed out, based on my own
experiences, that the anesthesia you get for a thorachotomy
is prone to screwing with your ability to hold on to
memories during the hours before surgery. Connally had
blood loss and the shock of being shot to compound the
issue. Do you really expect him to be second-by-second
accurate as to when he lost consciousness?
Anthony Marsh
2017-06-12 14:26:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mitch Todd
Post by Mitch Todd
Post by Robert Harris
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous
"theories" about why Mrs. Kennedy rose from her
seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was
correct. Jackie reached back across the trunk to
recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw
blown to the rear by a second head shot.
You can see that happen in both the Zapruder and
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the
Connallys heard her say immediately, after
sitting back down, that she had her husband's
brains in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland,
where she turned it over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be referring to a post I made
2 months ago, which you replied to over three weeks later.
I usually only spend a week or two in a thread unless something
interesting is going on.
Aha. The old freshness-date defense. Works for
supermarkets, but not quite as effective on
usenet.
The word is RETENTION.
Post by Mitch Todd
Post by Mitch Todd
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions.
The first is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing something
off of the trunk.
Yes, that is also true of the Nix film.
Post by Mitch Todd
The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off
the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested
cry, "They have killed my husband. I have his
brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything.
LOL!!
This is gonna be good.
I guess Clint Hill was just delusional that day. Why should we believe
Hill who was only inches from her at the time, when we have a nutter
fanatic like you?
Like I said, he didn't say that she grabbed anything,
but just reached for something that was coming off
of he rear of the car. The only delusional person in
this is you as you try to force yourself roughly on
Hill's statement.
Post by Mitch Todd
In fact, the first two argue *against* your conclusion.
Well, that's two consecutive blurtations. Let's see if they are the last.
Post by Mitch Todd
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right
hand.
Yes. That is correct.
To be specific, her right hand hits the rear deck in
frame 366. After that, she slides it across the trunklid
to the rear until frame 380. Then she pulls it back
and uses it to help push herself back into the back
seat. her fingers are still flat against the trunklid
as late as frame 386, if not later (the frames between
286 and 394 are blurry, so it's hard to tell)
Post by Mitch Todd
She's not picking anything up with her forearm,
and her right hand lands palm down with her fingers
stretched out and flat on the sheetmetal. No one >> grabs anything
That is incorrect.
She wasn't grabbing a baseball. She was grabbing brain tissue.
Think Jello.
I've grabbed plenty of Jello in my life. I've always used
my fingers. Slapping your palm down on the stuff completely
fails to grab it, and also makes a mess.
She obviously, did not pick it up immediately. She just kept it under
her hand. She could only pick it up with her fingers. You can see that
happen at frame 392.
http://jfkhistory.com/392.png
She was not supporting herself with her right hand at that instant. If
she was, she would have had the heal of her hand down.
So why would her fingers be in that position?
So, your argument rests on what you claim to
see in a grainy enlargement of a blurry frame
where Jackie's right hand is a featureless,
shadow blob in the image. But you somehow
can tell what her fingers are doing using your
Kryptonian x-ray vision. I hope you're not
expecting anyone else to believe you.
Post by Mitch Todd
that way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of
flesh are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film,
We see virtually no tissue ANYWHERE in the Zapruder film. Now, you can
either sign up with team Fetzer or acknowledge that Zapruder's camera
just couldn't pick up that kind of detail.
There is no doubt that tissue was found all over the limo, including
the trunk.
The thing is, you've asserted that she saw it
fly out, and clambered out over the trunklid
to retrieve it. For that to happen, it had to be
large enough for her to see it, notice it, and
know immediately it was important enough to go
out and get. It had to be fairly large, larger than
the other scraps of flesh that she ignored to
go for that one. How would a piece that large
not be visible somehow the film.
"We found blood and tissue all over the outside areas of the vehicle
from the hood ornament, over the complete area of the hood, on the
outside of the windshield, also on the inside surface of the
windshield, and all over the entire exterior portion of the car, that
is, the side rails down both sides of the car, and of course
considerable quantities inside the car and on the trunk lid area."
Clint Hill also stated that he was spattered by tissue and blood, as
did motorcyble officer Hargis, who described being struck with such
force that he thought he might have been hit by a bullet.
You are correct. Now, how about telling us, how large
were those pieces that they found on the trunklid.
And how large, do you suppose, would a chunk of brain
have to be for Jackie Kennedy to launch herself onto
the trunk of a moving car to retrieve?
Post by Mitch Todd
even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
It was under her hand and then in it.
In other words, neither you nor anyone else ever
saw her grab anything in film, or in real life.
All you have left is to assert it and hope the
rest of us don't look carefully at what you're
trying to put over.
Post by Mitch Todd
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not
"grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that.
Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to
reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not
grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto.
LOL!!
To be "reaching for something" = trying grab it.
And that's exactly what she did.
Again, trying to grab isn't grabbing. In fact,
trying to grab" is a staple of sports blooper
reels.
Post by Mitch Todd
Similarly, consider his "something coming off of
the rear bumper of the car>> car, the right rear tail." In
particular, the phrase
Post by Mitch Todd
"coming off of." Whatever the "something" was, it >> made a compleat
Elvis of itself and left the>> proverbial building
in Hill's account.
More blurtations. Surprise, surprise:-)
There was a LOT of stuff back there and he was obviously mistaken
about which one she was going for.
Like us, he didn't see her immediately pick it up, so it was perfectly
natural that he thought she missed whatever she was trying to retrieve.
Again, how big was "all that stuff?" And why did he
think it was something falling off of the car if
there was so much easily-identifiable stuff on the
trunk?
Post by Mitch Todd
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for
her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo.
Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the
right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right
tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right
rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as
far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just
didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
You seem to think that if you repeat the same argument enough times,
it will come true.
I'll take that as a high compliment from you,
given your own habits. High praise, indeed!
What she grabbed or failed to grab, had to have been the very last
thing that Hill was worried about.
And at that instant, he only saw her hand flat on the trunk's surface.
His error was predictable.
You've basically just admitted that Hill, your prime
witness, say he didn't see her grab anything. You're
still the gift that keeps on giving!
Having made a career out of telling us how unreliable witnesses are,
I'm sure you can wrap your head around that concept:-)
And now you assert that Hill is an unreliable witness.
I'm gonna start calling you Santa Claus if you keep this
up!
Post by Mitch Todd
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not
have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't
actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching
what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it,
how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
We already know there was all kinds of blood and tissue back there.
The FBI confirmed that fact.
Yep, but in what form, and in what sizes? For
that matter, why didn't Hill say that Mrs. K
was "trying to get one of those pieces of brain
scattered all over the trunk" if that were the
case? I'll bet the stuff left on the trunk was
mostly blood with tiny bits here and there. Not
something that would have attracted Jackie's
attention on the spur of the moment.
Post by Mitch Todd
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was
holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she
got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact
doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's
remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the
limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with
various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains.
Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of
knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
Fortunately however, we know WHEN she got it. Nellie heard her say she
had her husband's brains in her hand - "several times".
(quote)
...and then after the third shot she said, "they have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand" and she repeated that several
times
(unquote)
But John Connally only heard it once.
"I heard her say one time, 'I have got his brains in my hand.'"
So, why did he only hear it once? The answer is simple.
"At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the
line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until
we got to the hospital"
From the time Jackie sat down to the time the limo started to pull
"out of line" to the right, was no more than 3 seconds.
She just didn't have time to find a piece of tissue, pick it up and
then make that statement.
Also, consider the fact that she said "they have killed my husband".
That is not something she would have said 2 minutes later. She had
obviously, just discovered that his head was blown apart.
These statements could only have come immediately, after she sat back down.
Let's go back to what Governor Connally said. Here it is, including the
"When [Nellie] pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still
breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are
going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all
right. After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver,
"Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was
moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he
said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the
patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us. At about that
time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost
consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the
hospital."
So, a lot more is going on in this time than you let on. He remembered
Nellie telling him that he was going to be all right a number of times.
More than a couple or a few, based on the phrase "kept telling me." And
he was able to pick out Kellerman talking to Greer, so a lot happened
between the third shot and when his memory blanked out. More than you
seem to want to admit.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the
third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband."
Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I
have got his brains in my hand."
The placement of "I heard her say one time" is interesting.
It sets "I have got his brains in my hand" off from "They
have killed my husband," just like one might say if Jackie
repeated "they have killed my husband" some number of times
before saying "I have his brains in my hand." A lot like
what Nellie reported. And indicative that Connally remained
conscious longer than you wanna think.
While I'm at it, have you ever considered what he meant by
"pull out of the line?" At the time, Connally was on the floor
between the front seat and the jump seats with his wife on
top of him, so he can't see what was going on. What if he
meant the turn onto the Stemmons on ramp? That's the first
major direction change they would have made, and I doubt
that Connally knew enough detail about either the intended
motorcade route (or visited Dallas enough that he knew the
particulars of Dallas' roadway grid) to have instantly
recognized the route. Enough for Jackie to be back in her seat
and pick up one of the myriad bits of her husband and
lament.
To top it off, I've already pointed out, based on my own
experiences, that the anesthesia you get for a thorachotomy
is prone to screwing with your ability to hold on to
memories during the hours before surgery. Connally had
blood loss and the shock of being shot to compound the
issue. Do you really expect him to be second-by-second
accurate as to when he lost consciousness?
Steve Barber
2017-06-14 00:09:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mitch Todd
Post by Mitch Todd
Post by Robert Harris
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous
"theories" about why Mrs. Kennedy rose from her
seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was
correct. Jackie reached back across the trunk to
recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw
blown to the rear by a second head shot.
You can see that happen in both the Zapruder and
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the
Connallys heard her say immediately, after
sitting back down, that she had her husband's
brains in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland,
where she turned it over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be referring to a post I made 2
months ago, which you replied to over three weeks later.
I usually only spend a week or two in a thread unless something
interesting is going on.
Aha. The old freshness-date defense. Works for
supermarkets, but not quite as effective on
usenet.
Post by Mitch Todd
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions.
The first is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie
grabbing something off of the trunk.
Yes, that is also true of the Nix film.
Post by Mitch Todd
The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off
the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear
tail." The third is Mrs Kennedy's well-attested
cry, "They have killed my husband. I have his
brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything.
LOL!!
This is gonna be good.
I guess Clint Hill was just delusional that day. Why should we believe
Hill who was only inches from her at the time, when we have a nutter
fanatic like you?
Like I said, he didn't say that she grabbed anything,
but just reached for something that was coming off
of he rear of the car. The only delusional person in
this is you as you try to force yourself roughly on
Hill's statement.
Post by Mitch Todd
In fact, the first two argue *against* your conclusion.
Well, that's two consecutive blurtations. Let's see if they are the last.
Post by Mitch Todd
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right
hand.
Yes. That is correct.
To be specific, her right hand hits the rear deck in
frame 366. After that, she slides it across the trunklid
to the rear until frame 380. Then she pulls it back
and uses it to help push herself back into the back
seat. her fingers are still flat against the trunklid
as late as frame 386, if not later (the frames between
286 and 394 are blurry, so it's hard to tell)
Post by Mitch Todd
She's not picking anything up with her forearm,
and her right hand lands palm down with her fingers
stretched out and flat on the sheetmetal. No one >> grabs anything
That is incorrect.
She wasn't grabbing a baseball. She was grabbing brain tissue.
Think Jello.
I've grabbed plenty of Jello in my life. I've always used
my fingers. Slapping your palm down on the stuff completely
fails to grab it, and also makes a mess.
She obviously, did not pick it up immediately. She just kept it under
her hand. She could only pick it up with her fingers. You can see that
happen at frame 392.
http://jfkhistory.com/392.png
She was not supporting herself with her right hand at that instant. If
she was, she would have had the heal of her hand down.
So why would her fingers be in that position?
So, your argument rests on what you claim to
see in a grainy enlargement of a blurry frame
where Jackie's right hand is a featureless,
shadow blob in the image. But you somehow
can tell what her fingers are doing using your
Kryptonian x-ray vision. I hope you're not
expecting anyone else to believe you.
Post by Mitch Todd
that way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of
flesh are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film,
We see virtually no tissue ANYWHERE in the Zapruder film. Now, you can
either sign up with team Fetzer or acknowledge that Zapruder's camera
just couldn't pick up that kind of detail.
There is no doubt that tissue was found all over the limo, including the
trunk.
The thing is, you've asserted that she saw it
fly out, and clambered out over the trunklid
to retrieve it. For that to happen, it had to be
large enough for her to see it, notice it, and
know immediately it was important enough to go
out and get. It had to be fairly large, larger than
the other scraps of flesh that she ignored to
go for that one. How would a piece that large
not be visible somehow the film.
"We found blood and tissue all over the outside areas of the vehicle
from the hood ornament, over the complete area of the hood, on the
outside of the windshield, also on the inside surface of the windshield,
and all over the entire exterior portion of the car, that is, the side
rails down both sides of the car, and of course considerable quantities
inside the car and on the trunk lid area."
Clint Hill also stated that he was spattered by tissue and blood, as did
motorcyble officer Hargis, who described being struck with such force
that he thought he might have been hit by a bullet.
You are correct. Now, how about telling us, how large
were those pieces that they found on the trunklid.
And how large, do you suppose, would a chunk of brain
have to be for Jackie Kennedy to launch herself onto
the trunk of a moving car to retrieve?
Post by Mitch Todd
even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
It was under her hand and then in it.
In other words, neither you nor anyone else ever
saw her grab anything in film, or in real life.
All you have left is to assert it and hope the
rest of us don't look carefully at what you're
trying to put over.
Post by Mitch Todd
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not
"grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that.
Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to
reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not
grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto.
LOL!!
To be "reaching for something" = trying grab it.
And that's exactly what she did.
Again, trying to grab isn't grabbing. In fact,
trying to grab" is a staple of sports blooper
reels.
Post by Mitch Todd
Similarly, consider his "something coming off of
the rear bumper of the car>> car, the right rear tail." In
particular, the phrase
Post by Mitch Todd
"coming off of." Whatever the "something" was, it >> made a compleat Elvis of itself and left the>> proverbial building
in Hill's account.
More blurtations. Surprise, surprise:-)
There was a LOT of stuff back there and he was obviously mistaken about
which one she was going for.
Like us, he didn't see her immediately pick it up, so it was perfectly
natural that he thought she missed whatever she was trying to retrieve.
Again, how big was "all that stuff?" And why did he
think it was something falling off of the car if
there was so much easily-identifiable stuff on the
trunk?
Post by Mitch Todd
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for
her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo.
Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the
right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right
tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right
rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as
far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just
didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
You seem to think that if you repeat the same argument enough times, it
will come true.
I'll take that as a high compliment from you,
given your own habits. High praise, indeed!
What she grabbed or failed to grab, had to have been the very last thing
that Hill was worried about.
And at that instant, he only saw her hand flat on the trunk's surface.
His error was predictable.
You've basically just admitted that Hill, your prime
witness, say he didn't see her grab anything. You're
still the gift that keeps on giving!
Having made a career out of telling us how unreliable witnesses are, I'm
sure you can wrap your head around that concept:-)
And now you assert that Hill is an unreliable witness.
I'm gonna start calling you Santa Claus if you keep this
up!
Post by Mitch Todd
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not
have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't
actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching
what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it,
how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
We already know there was all kinds of blood and tissue back there. The
FBI confirmed that fact.
Yep, but in what form, and in what sizes? For
that matter, why didn't Hill say that Mrs. K
was "trying to get one of those pieces of brain
scattered all over the trunk" if that were the
case? I'll bet the stuff left on the trunk was
mostly blood with tiny bits here and there. Not
something that would have attracted Jackie's
attention on the spur of the moment.
Post by Mitch Todd
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was
holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she
got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact
doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's
remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the
limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with
various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains.
Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of
knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
Fortunately however, we know WHEN she got it. Nellie heard her say she
had her husband's brains in her hand - "several times".
(quote)
...and then after the third shot she said, "they have killed my husband.
I have his brains in my hand" and she repeated that several times
(unquote)
But John Connally only heard it once.
"I heard her say one time, 'I have got his brains in my hand.'"
So, why did he only hear it once? The answer is simple.
"At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the
line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we
got to the hospital"
From the time Jackie sat down to the time the limo started to pull "out
of line" to the right, was no more than 3 seconds.
She just didn't have time to find a piece of tissue, pick it up and then
make that statement.
Also, consider the fact that she said "they have killed my husband".
That is not something she would have said 2 minutes later. She had
obviously, just discovered that his head was blown apart.
These statements could only have come immediately, after she sat back down.
Let's go back to what Governor Connally said. Here it is, including the
"When [Nellie] pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still
breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going
to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right.
After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill,
get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a
button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us
to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the
motorcycle police who were leading us. At about that time, we began to
pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and
didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital."
So, a lot more is going on in this time than you let on. He remembered
Nellie telling him that he was going to be all right a number of times.
More than a couple or a few, based on the phrase "kept telling me." And he
was able to pick out Kellerman talking to Greer, so a lot happened between
the third shot and when his memory blanked out. More than you seem to want
to admit.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the
third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband."
Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I
have got his brains in my hand."
The placement of "I heard her say one time" is interesting.
It sets "I have got his brains in my hand" off from "They
have killed my husband," just like one might say if Jackie
repeated "they have killed my husband" some number of times
before saying "I have his brains in my hand." A lot like
what Nellie reported. And indicative that Connally remained
conscious longer than you wanna think.
While I'm at it, have you ever considered what he meant by
"pull out of the line?" At the time, Connally was on the floor
between the front seat and the jump seats with his wife on
top of him, so he can't see what was going on. What if he
meant the turn onto the Stemmons on ramp? That's the first
major direction change they would have made, and I doubt
that Connally knew enough detail about either the intended
motorcade route (or visited Dallas enough that he knew the
particulars of Dallas' roadway grid) to have instantly
recognized the route. Enough for Jackie to be back in her seat
and pick up one of the myriad bits of her husband and
lament.
To top it off, I've already pointed out, based on my own
experiences, that the anesthesia you get for a thorachotomy
is prone to screwing with your ability to hold on to
memories during the hours before surgery. Connally had
blood loss and the shock of being shot to compound the
issue. Do you really expect him to be second-by-second
accurate as to when he lost consciousness?
Mitch, I pointed out Mrs. Kennedy's hand sliding across the trunk years
ago in an online article, published by .John McAdams (
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/looking.htm ) Naturally, by the die-hard
conspiracy theorists within this forum I was ridiculed for it. It's
surprising to know that at least one other person sees what she really did
during her brief encounter on the trunk lid of the car--meaning yourself.
I have tried and failed at trying to make a stabilized gif, enhanced,
showing Mrs. Kennedy's hands close up so that I can provide the proof, but
fail largely at it. People constantly say that Mrs. Kennedy went after a
piece of brain tissue blown to the rear that she kept it in her hand until
she reached Parkland hospital, then handed it to Dr. Jenkins. Mrs. Kennedy
told Theodore White that " I'd tried to hold the top of his head down,
maybe I could keep it in...I knew he was dead..." Well, I find it
interesting that she was trying to do all of this with one hand, while the
other hand held on to that "piece of brain" that according to these people
she "grabbed from the trunk" (actually, it's the trunk lid) and this is
what she handed to Dr. Jenkins. The whole idea is ridiculous. The
Connally's hearing her say "I have his brains in my hand" is a poor choice
for "proof" that she picked up a piece of brain tissue from the trunk lid
and held onto it then handed it to a Parkland doctor. Based on what she
told White within 7 days of the assassination, that she was trying to keep
what is left of his brain in his head, thus "I have his brains in my hand"
and "holding the top of his head down"(which in itself tells one where the
hole in the head actually was)explains everything, yet, instead, people
try to use what she told the WC during her testimony some 7 months later
as "proof" that the back of his head was gone, not the top like she
clearly told White within a week of the murder when it was fresh in her
mind. The words " From the front there was nothing, but from the back you
could see, you know, that I was trying to hold his hair on and his skull
on" can be twisted into whatever a conspiracy theorists wants it to say.
Typical.
mainframetech
2017-06-06 20:54:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mitch Todd
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories" about why Mrs.
Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie reached back
across the trunk to recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw blown
to the rear by a second head shot.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her say
immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her husband's brains
in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she turned it
over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions. The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing something
off of the trunk. The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything. In fact, the first two argue
*against* your conclusion.
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right hand.
She's not picking anything up with her forearm, and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs anything that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film, even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not "grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that. Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto. Similarly, consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase "coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's account.
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo. Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it, how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains. Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Perhaps this slightly different list of evidence will help:

The following is from the testimony of Nellie Connally:

"Then, I heard a third shot and felt matter cover us and she said, "They
have killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand"."

She was speaking of Jackie, who had just gone back on the trunk and
picked up something. Now we move on to John Connally:

Mr. DODD. OK. You did not immediately go unconscious?
Mr. CONNALLY. No, I did not. I knew exactly what was happening in the car
and I didn't testify to a moment ago but I should because I remember precisely
what my wife remembers. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say "they have killed my
husband," and then she said, in just an incredulous voice, I have got his
brains in my hand."

Next, we have Dr. Marion Jenkins of Parkland:

"As doctors prepared to call the time of death , Mrs. Kennedy slowly
walked over to Dr. Jenkins. She looked at him and silently, extended her
arms, her hands still cupped. He asked quietly, “Yes, Mrs.
Kennedy?” And with that, he held out his hand and in it, she
placed a small, two-inch portion of the president’s brain that
she’d been holding since the shooting, almost two hours earlier."

From: https://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/category/the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy/


And then we have the testimony of Bobby Hargis, motorcycle cop who was
pacing the limousine from behind and to the left:

Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22nd?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: I was.
Mr. STERN. In what position?
Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.
Mr. STERN. At what part of the President’s car?
Mr. HARGIS. Well-
Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?
Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.
Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HARGIS. Right."
.
.
.
"Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the
shot you have just described?
Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?
Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. HARGIS. Yes: when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car
the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his
head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a
bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the
Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, “Get
going,” or “get going,“

From: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Hargis.pdf


So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.

Chris
Steve Barber
2017-06-08 02:40:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by Mitch Todd
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories" about why Mrs.
Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie reached back
across the trunk to recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw blown
to the rear by a second head shot.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her say
immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her husband's brains
in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she turned it
over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions. The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing something
off of the trunk. The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything. In fact, the first two argue
*against* your conclusion.
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right hand.
She's not picking anything up with her forearm, and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs anything that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film, even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not "grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that. Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto. Similarly, consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase "coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's account.
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo. Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it, how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains. Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
"Then, I heard a third shot and felt matter cover us and she said, "They
have killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand"."
She was speaking of Jackie, who had just gone back on the trunk and
Mr. DODD. OK. You did not immediately go unconscious?
Mr. CONNALLY. No, I did not. I knew exactly what was happening in the car
and I didn't testify to a moment ago but I should because I remember precisely
what my wife remembers. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say "they have killed my
husband," and then she said, in just an incredulous voice, I have got his
brains in my hand."
"As doctors prepared to call the time of death , Mrs. Kennedy slowly
walked over to Dr. Jenkins. She looked at him and silently, extended her
arms, her hands still cupped. He asked quietly, “Yes, Mrs.
Kennedy?” And with that, he held out his hand and in it, she
placed a small, two-inch portion of the president’s brain that
she’d been holding since the shooting, almost two hours earlier."
From: https://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/category/the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy/
And then we have the testimony of Bobby Hargis, motorcycle cop who was
Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22nd?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: I was.
Mr. STERN. In what position?
Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.
Mr. STERN. At what part of the President’s car?
Mr. HARGIS. Well-
Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?
Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.
Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HARGIS. Right."
.
.
.
"Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the
shot you have just described?
Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car
the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his
head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a
bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the
Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, “Get
going,” or “get going,“
From: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Hargis.pdf
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
Chris
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
mainframetech
2017-06-09 02:29:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
Post by Mitch Todd
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories" about why Mrs.
Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie reached back
across the trunk to recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw blown
to the rear by a second head shot.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her say
immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her husband's brains
in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she turned it
over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions. The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing something
off of the trunk. The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything. In fact, the first two argue
*against* your conclusion.
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right hand.
She's not picking anything up with her forearm, and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs anything that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film, even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not "grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that. Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto. Similarly, consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase "coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's account.
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo. Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it, how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains. Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
"Then, I heard a third shot and felt matter cover us and she said, "They
have killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand"."
She was speaking of Jackie, who had just gone back on the trunk and
Mr. DODD. OK. You did not immediately go unconscious?
Mr. CONNALLY. No, I did not. I knew exactly what was happening in the car
and I didn't testify to a moment ago but I should because I remember precisely
what my wife remembers. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say "they have killed my
husband," and then she said, in just an incredulous voice, I have got his
brains in my hand."
"As doctors prepared to call the time of death , Mrs. Kennedy slowly
walked over to Dr. Jenkins. She looked at him and silently, extended her
arms, her hands still cupped. He asked quietly, “Yes, Mrs.
Kennedy?” And with that, he held out his hand and in it, she
placed a small, two-inch portion of the president’s brain that
she’d been holding since the shooting, almost two hours earlier."
From: https://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/category/the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy/
And then we have the testimony of Bobby Hargis, motorcycle cop who was
Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22nd?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: I was.
Mr. STERN. In what position?
Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.
Mr. STERN. At what part of the President’s car?
Mr. HARGIS. Well-
Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?
Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.
Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HARGIS. Right."
.
.
.
"Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the
shot you have just described?
Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car
the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his
head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a
bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the
Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, “Get
going,” or “get going,“
From: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Hargis.pdf
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
Chris
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
She must have grabbed something. Since she had something to give to
the Parkland doctor (Jenkins), which was brain tissue.

Chris
John McAdams
2017-06-09 02:31:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
She must have grabbed something. Since she had something to give to
the Parkland doctor (Jenkins), which was brain tissue.
She must have grabbed brain tissue from *somewhere.*

But since it was all over the interior of the limo, there is no reason
to insist she got it off the trunk.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Robert Harris
2017-06-10 01:01:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John McAdams
Post by mainframetech
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
She must have grabbed something. Since she had something to give to
the Parkland doctor (Jenkins), which was brain tissue.
She must have grabbed brain tissue from *somewhere.*
But since it was all over the interior of the limo, there is no reason
to insist she got it off the trunk.
Did you even bother to read the article I linked on this subject?

Nellie heard her say, "I have his brains in my hand", several
times.

Her husband heard it only once.

That's because he passed out just as the limo was pulling to
the right. That was within about 3 seconds after she sat back
down.

She said that *immediately* after returning to her seat.

"..and then after the third shot she said, 'they have killed
my husband. I have his brains in my hand'"

She was shocked that her husband was dead. That was not
something she said 2 minutes later. She could only have been
shocked, immediately after seeing his condition.


Robert Harris
John McAdams
2017-06-10 01:05:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Harris
Post by John McAdams
Post by mainframetech
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
She must have grabbed something. Since she had something to give to
the Parkland doctor (Jenkins), which was brain tissue.
She must have grabbed brain tissue from *somewhere.*
But since it was all over the interior of the limo, there is no reason
to insist she got it off the trunk.
Did you even bother to read the article I linked on this subject?
No.
Post by Robert Harris
Nellie heard her say, "I have his brains in my hand", several
times.
Her husband heard it only once.
That's because he passed out just as the limo was pulling to
the right. That was within about 3 seconds after she sat back
down.
She said that *immediately* after returning to her seat.
Huh? So she got out on the trunk, retrieved brain matter, and then
got back within three seconds?

She didn't have to *get* out on the trunk to get brain matter. It was
all over the inside of the limo. There may have been some in her lap.
Post by Robert Harris
"..and then after the third shot she said, 'they have killed
my husband. I have his brains in my hand'"
She was shocked that her husband was dead. That was not
something she said 2 minutes later. She could only have been
shocked, immediately after seeing his condition.
Sure. And how does that require her to have climbed out on the trunk
of the limo, retrieve brain matter, and then get back in?

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Robert Harris
2017-06-14 02:56:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John McAdams
Post by Robert Harris
Post by John McAdams
Post by mainframetech
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
She must have grabbed something. Since she had something to give to
the Parkland doctor (Jenkins), which was brain tissue.
She must have grabbed brain tissue from *somewhere.*
But since it was all over the interior of the limo, there is no reason
to insist she got it off the trunk.
Did you even bother to read the article I linked on this subject?
No.
LOL!!

A closed mind is a dying mind, John.

You will learn more from your adversaries than you ever will
from those on your "side".
Post by John McAdams
Post by Robert Harris
Nellie heard her say, "I have his brains in my hand", several
times.
Her husband heard it only once.
That's because he passed out just as the limo was pulling to
the right. That was within about 3 seconds after she sat back
down.
She said that *immediately* after returning to her seat.
Huh? So she got out on the trunk, retrieved brain matter, and then
got back within three seconds?
Reading comprehension is important.

I said it was no more than 3 seconds from the time she sat
back down, to the time the limo pulled to the right and John
Connally passed out.

She didn't have time to pick up anything inside the limo,
inspect it and then say she had JFK's brains in her hand.
Post by John McAdams
She didn't have to *get* out on the trunk to get brain matter. It was
all over the inside of the limo. There may have been some in her lap.
True enough. What she did was downright stupid, IMO:-)
Post by John McAdams
Post by Robert Harris
"..and then after the third shot she said, 'they have killed
my husband. I have his brains in my hand'"
She was shocked that her husband was dead. That was not
something she said 2 minutes later. She could only have been
shocked, immediately after seeing his condition.
Sure. And how does that require her to have climbed out on the trunk
of the limo, retrieve brain matter, and then get back in?
This is a silly argument, john. No one's claiming what she
did, made sense.

But that doesn't change the fact that she did it.


Robert Harris
Steve Barber
2017-06-14 21:42:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Harris
Post by John McAdams
Post by Robert Harris
Post by John McAdams
Post by mainframetech
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
She must have grabbed something. Since she had something to give to
the Parkland doctor (Jenkins), which was brain tissue.
She must have grabbed brain tissue from *somewhere.*
But since it was all over the interior of the limo, there is no reason
to insist she got it off the trunk.
Did you even bother to read the article I linked on this subject?
No.
LOL!!
A closed mind is a dying mind, John.
You will learn more from your adversaries than you ever will
from those on your "side".
Post by John McAdams
Post by Robert Harris
Nellie heard her say, "I have his brains in my hand", several
times.
Her husband heard it only once.
That's because he passed out just as the limo was pulling to
the right. That was within about 3 seconds after she sat back
down.
She said that *immediately* after returning to her seat.
Huh? So she got out on the trunk, retrieved brain matter, and then
got back within three seconds?
Reading comprehension is important.
I said it was no more than 3 seconds from the time she sat
back down, to the time the limo pulled to the right and John
Connally passed out.
Before you make smarmy remarks about peoples' reading skills Harris,
you'd be wise to stop ignoring the evidence in the Zapruder film. FYI,
Connally did not "pass out" three seconds after Mrs. Kennedy toppled back
into the seat compartment (there is no "sat back down" about it! Connally
rises in the seat,looks into the back seat area and by the time the car is
about to enter the underpass he is seated completely erect. Not "passed
out" at all!



I thought everyone knew this, but obviously not you. I pointed this out in
the article .John posted on his website over ten years ago.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/looking.htm
Post by Robert Harris
She didn't have time to pick up anything inside the limo,
inspect it and then say she had JFK's brains in her hand.
You really come up with some whoppers, Harris. Just because Nellie
Connally recalls hearing Mrs. Kennedy say "I have his brains in my hand",
you immediately jump to conclusions and claim that she said this
immediately after the third shot. Go ahead and make your silly claims but
they hold no weight. She had "his brains" all over her legs(according to
what she tells Theodore White 7 days after the murder) not to mention
trying to "keep it" (the brain) inside what was left of his head. You
should also take note that she describes where the hole in the head was,
which is "the top" NOT THE REAR! READ!:
http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/Camelot.pdf
Post by Robert Harris
Post by John McAdams
She didn't have to *get* out on the trunk to get brain matter. It was
all over the inside of the limo. There may have been some in her lap.
True enough. What she did was downright stupid, IMO:-)
What she did was try to exit the car by climbing out of the back seat
onto the trunk lid--which was done while she was in shock--which she never
recalled doing. She had no other way of exiting the car. The car door
latches were located at least 1 1/2 to 2 feet from her reach, so even if
she wanted to, she wouldn't have been able to open the door on her side of
the vehicle. The first signs of her shock are visible when as she begins
to rise from the seat, she actually shoved her husband's head forward with
her right hand, then again shoved it forward with her left as she exits
the rear seat. If you can't see that she was in shock there's no hope for
you, Harris.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by John McAdams
Post by Robert Harris
"..and then after the third shot she said, 'they have killed
my husband. I have his brains in my hand'"
She was shocked that her husband was dead. That was not
something she said 2 minutes later. She could only have been
shocked, immediately after seeing his condition.
Sure. And how does that require her to have climbed out on the trunk
of the limo, retrieve brain matter, and then get back in?
This is a silly argument, john. No one's claiming what she
did, made sense.
But that doesn't change the fact that she did it.
Robert Harris
Steve Barber
2017-06-10 18:08:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Harris
Post by John McAdams
Post by mainframetech
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
She must have grabbed something. Since she had something to give to
the Parkland doctor (Jenkins), which was brain tissue.
She must have grabbed brain tissue from *somewhere.*
But since it was all over the interior of the limo, there is no reason
to insist she got it off the trunk.
Did you even bother to read the article I linked on this subject?
Nellie heard her say, "I have his brains in my hand", several
times.
Her husband heard it only once.
That's because he passed out just as the limo was pulling to
the right. That was within about 3 seconds after she sat back
down.
She said that *immediately* after returning to her seat.
"..and then after the third shot she said, 'they have killed
my husband. I have his brains in my hand'"
She was shocked that her husband was dead. That was not
something she said 2 minutes later. She could only have been
shocked, immediately after seeing his condition.
Robert Harris
You are really something, Harris. Have you even bothered to read the
Theodore White interview, done within 7 days of the murder? She repeatledy
says that she was trying to hold the TOP of his head down and that she was
"trying to keep the brains in". so, what do you do? You actually belive
that she crawled onto the the trunk lid of the car to "retrieve" a chunk
of brain tissue and that that "chunk" was what she handed to Pepper
Jenkins. UNBELIEVABLE! There isn't an ounce of truth in what you say she
did while her upper body was over the trunk lid. Why don't you take a
long, close look at the Zapruder film repeatedly, and see what she is
actually doing. I'll give you a hint, she isn't trying to "retrieve"
anything!
Jason Burke
2017-06-11 21:08:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Robert Harris
Post by John McAdams
Post by mainframetech
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
She must have grabbed something. Since she had something to give to
the Parkland doctor (Jenkins), which was brain tissue.
She must have grabbed brain tissue from *somewhere.*
But since it was all over the interior of the limo, there is no reason
to insist she got it off the trunk.
Did you even bother to read the article I linked on this subject?
Nellie heard her say, "I have his brains in my hand", several
times.
Her husband heard it only once.
That's because he passed out just as the limo was pulling to
the right. That was within about 3 seconds after she sat back
down.
She said that *immediately* after returning to her seat.
"..and then after the third shot she said, 'they have killed
my husband. I have his brains in my hand'"
She was shocked that her husband was dead. That was not
something she said 2 minutes later. She could only have been
shocked, immediately after seeing his condition.
Robert Harris
You are really something, Harris. Have you even bothered to read the
Theodore White interview, done within 7 days of the murder? She repeatledy
says that she was trying to hold the TOP of his head down and that she was
"trying to keep the brains in". so, what do you do? You actually belive
that she crawled onto the the trunk lid of the car to "retrieve" a chunk
of brain tissue and that that "chunk" was what she handed to Pepper
Jenkins. UNBELIEVABLE! There isn't an ounce of truth in what you say she
did while her upper body was over the trunk lid. Why don't you take a
long, close look at the Zapruder film repeatedly, and see what she is
actually doing. I'll give you a hint, she isn't trying to "retrieve"
anything!
Steve,

Do you *honestly* expect BobHarris to be in touch with reality?
Steve Barber
2017-06-13 21:42:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Harris
Post by Steve Barber
Post by Robert Harris
Post by John McAdams
Post by mainframetech
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
None of you are paying any attention to what Mrs. Kennedy actually does
when her right hand (with a 100% white cotton glove on it) lands on the
trunk lid. Look closely at a regular speed stabilized, blown up, clear
copy of the Zapruder film. She never "reached for" nor "grabbed" anything.
She must have grabbed something. Since she had something to give to
the Parkland doctor (Jenkins), which was brain tissue.
She must have grabbed brain tissue from *somewhere.*
But since it was all over the interior of the limo, there is no reason
to insist she got it off the trunk.
Did you even bother to read the article I linked on this subject?
Nellie heard her say, "I have his brains in my hand", several
times.
Her husband heard it only once.
That's because he passed out just as the limo was pulling to
the right. That was within about 3 seconds after she sat back
down.
She said that *immediately* after returning to her seat.
"..and then after the third shot she said, 'they have killed
my husband. I have his brains in my hand'"
She was shocked that her husband was dead. That was not
something she said 2 minutes later. She could only have been
shocked, immediately after seeing his condition.
Robert Harris
You are really something, Harris. Have you even bothered to read the
Theodore White interview, done within 7 days of the murder? She repeatledy
says that she was trying to hold the TOP of his head down and that she was
"trying to keep the brains in". so, what do you do? You actually belive
that she crawled onto the the trunk lid of the car to "retrieve" a chunk
of brain tissue and that that "chunk" was what she handed to Pepper
Jenkins. UNBELIEVABLE! There isn't an ounce of truth in what you say she
did while her upper body was over the trunk lid. Why don't you take a
long, close look at the Zapruder film repeatedly, and see what she is
actually doing. I'll give you a hint, she isn't trying to "retrieve"
anything!
Steve,
Do you *honestly* expect BobHarris to be in touch with reality?
Absolutely not.
Robert Harris
2017-06-09 13:40:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Steve,

I appears that you didn't read the discussion Mitch and I had
on this subject. Even he agreed that she was trying to grab
something. But she didn't pick it up immediately.

http://jfkhistory.com/392.png

(quoting)
Post by Mitch Todd
Post by Robert Harris
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous
"theories" about why Mrs. Kennedy rose from her
seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was
correct. Jackie reached back across the trunk to
recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw
blown to the rear by a second head shot.
You can see that happen in both the Zapruder and
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the
Connallys heard her say immediately, after
sitting back down, that she had her husband's
brains in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland,
where she turned it over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be referring to a
post I made 2 months ago, which you replied to over three
weeks later.

I usually only spend a week or two in a thread unless
something interesting is going on.
Post by Mitch Todd
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions.
The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing
something
off of the trunk.
Yes, that is also true of the Nix film.
Post by Mitch Todd
The second is that Clint Hill
testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off
the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The
third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything.
LOL!!

This is gonna be good.

I guess Clint Hill was just delusional that day. Why should
we believe Hill who was only inches from her at the time,
when we have a nutter fanatic like you?
Post by Mitch Todd
In fact, the first
two argue
*against* your conclusion.
Well, that's two consecutive blurtations. Let's see if they
are the last.
Post by Mitch Todd
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right
hand.
Yes. That is correct.
Post by Mitch Todd
She's not picking anything up with her forearm,
and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers
stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs
anything
That is incorrect.

She wasn't grabbing a baseball. She was grabbing brain tissue.

Think Jello.

She obviously, did not pick it up immediately. She just kept
it under her hand. She could only pick it up with her
fingers. You can see that happen at frame 392.

http://jfkhistory.com/392.png

She was not supporting herself with her right hand at that
instant. If she was, she would have had the heal of her hand
down.

So why would her fingers be in that position?
Post by Mitch Todd
that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of
flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film,
We see virtually no tissue ANYWHERE in the Zapruder film.
Now, you can either sign up with team Fetzer or acknowledge
that Zapruder's camera just couldn't pick up that kind of detail.

There is no doubt that tissue was found all over the limo,
including the trunk.

From the testimony of SAIC Frazier at the Shaw trial:

"We found blood and tissue all over the outside areas of the
vehicle from the hood ornament, over the complete area of the
hood, on the outside of the windshield, also on the inside
surface of the windshield, and all over the entire exterior
portion of the car, that is, the side rails down both sides
of the car, and of course considerable quantities inside the
car and on the trunk lid area."

Clint Hill also stated that he was spattered by tissue and
blood, as did motorcyble officer Hargis, who described being
struck with such force that he thought he might have been hit
by a bullet.
Post by Mitch Todd
even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
It was under her hand and then in it.
Post by Mitch Todd
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not
"grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that.
Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to
reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not
grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto.
LOL!!

To be "reaching for something" = trying grab it.

And that's exactly what she did.
Post by Mitch Todd
Similarly,
consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the
car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase
"coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat
Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's
account.
More blurtations. Surprise, surprise:-)

There was a LOT of stuff back there and he was obviously
mistaken about which one she was going for.

Like us, he didn't see her immediately pick it up, so it was
perfectly natural that he thought she missed whatever she was
trying to retrieve.
Post by Mitch Todd
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for
her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo.
Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the
right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right
tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right
rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as
far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just
didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
You seem to think that if you repeat the same argument enough
times, it will come true.

What she grabbed or failed to grab, had to have been the very
last thing that Hill was worried about.

And at that instant, he only saw her hand flat on the trunk's
surface. His error was predictable.

Having made a career out of telling us how unreliable
witnesses are, I'm sure you can wrap your head around that
concept:-)
Post by Mitch Todd
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not
have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't
actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching
what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it,
how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
We already know there was all kinds of blood and tissue back
there. The FBI confirmed that fact.
Post by Mitch Todd
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was
holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she
got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact
doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's
remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the
limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with
various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains.
Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of
knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
Fortunately however, we know WHEN she got it. Nellie heard
her say she had her husband's brains in her hand - "several
times".

(quote)

....and then after the third shot she said, "they have killed
my husband. I have his brains in my hand" and she repeated
that several times

(unquote)

But John Connally only heard it once.

"I heard her say one time, 'I have got his brains in my hand.'"

So, why did he only hear it once? The answer is simple.

"At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade,
out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain
consciousness until we got to the hospital"

From the time Jackie sat down to the time the limo started
to pull "out of line" to the right, was no more than 3 seconds.

She just didn't have time to find a piece of tissue, pick it
up and then make that statement.

Also, consider the fact that she said "they have killed my
husband".

That is not something she would have said 2 minutes later.
She had obviously, just discovered that his head was blown apart.

These statements could only have come immediately, after she
sat back down.



Robert Harris
Steve Barber
2017-06-10 02:41:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Harris
Steve,
I appears that you didn't read the discussion Mitch and I had
on this subject. Even he agreed that she was trying to grab
something. But she didn't pick it up immediately.
http://jfkhistory.com/392.png
(quoting)
Post by Mitch Todd
Post by Robert Harris
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous
"theories" about why Mrs. Kennedy rose from her
seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was
correct. Jackie reached back across the trunk to
recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw
blown to the rear by a second head shot.
You can see that happen in both the Zapruder and
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the
Connallys heard her say immediately, after
sitting back down, that she had her husband's
brains in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland,
where she turned it over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be referring to a
post I made 2 months ago, which you replied to over three
weeks later.
I usually only spend a week or two in a thread unless
something interesting is going on.
Post by Mitch Todd
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions.
The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing
something
off of the trunk.
Yes, that is also true of the Nix film.
Post by Mitch Todd
The second is that Clint Hill
testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off
the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The
third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything.
LOL!!
This is gonna be good.
I guess Clint Hill was just delusional that day. Why should
we believe Hill who was only inches from her at the time,
when we have a nutter fanatic like you?
Post by Mitch Todd
In fact, the first
two argue
*against* your conclusion.
Well, that's two consecutive blurtations. Let's see if they
are the last.
Post by Mitch Todd
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right
hand.
Yes. That is correct.
Post by Mitch Todd
She's not picking anything up with her forearm,
and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers
stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs
anything
That is incorrect.
She wasn't grabbing a baseball. She was grabbing brain tissue.
Think Jello.
She obviously, did not pick it up immediately. She just kept
it under her hand. She could only pick it up with her
fingers. You can see that happen at frame 392.
http://jfkhistory.com/392.png
She was not supporting herself with her right hand at that
instant. If she was, she would have had the heal of her hand
down.
So why would her fingers be in that position?
Post by Mitch Todd
that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of
flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film,
We see virtually no tissue ANYWHERE in the Zapruder film.
Now, you can either sign up with team Fetzer or acknowledge
that Zapruder's camera just couldn't pick up that kind of detail.
There is no doubt that tissue was found all over the limo,
including the trunk.
"We found blood and tissue all over the outside areas of the
vehicle from the hood ornament, over the complete area of the
hood, on the outside of the windshield, also on the inside
surface of the windshield, and all over the entire exterior
portion of the car, that is, the side rails down both sides
of the car, and of course considerable quantities inside the
car and on the trunk lid area."
Clint Hill also stated that he was spattered by tissue and
blood, as did motorcyble officer Hargis, who described being
struck with such force that he thought he might have been hit
by a bullet.
Post by Mitch Todd
even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
It was under her hand and then in it.
Post by Mitch Todd
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not
"grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that.
Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to
reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not
grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto.
LOL!!
To be "reaching for something" = trying grab it.
And that's exactly what she did.
Post by Mitch Todd
Similarly,
consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the
car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase
"coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat
Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's
account.
More blurtations. Surprise, surprise:-)
There was a LOT of stuff back there and he was obviously
mistaken about which one she was going for.
Like us, he didn't see her immediately pick it up, so it was
perfectly natural that he thought she missed whatever she was
trying to retrieve.
Post by Mitch Todd
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for
her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo.
Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the
right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right
tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right
rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as
far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just
didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
You seem to think that if you repeat the same argument enough
times, it will come true.
What she grabbed or failed to grab, had to have been the very
last thing that Hill was worried about.
And at that instant, he only saw her hand flat on the trunk's
surface. His error was predictable.
Having made a career out of telling us how unreliable
witnesses are, I'm sure you can wrap your head around that
concept:-)
Post by Mitch Todd
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not
have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't
actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching
what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it,
how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
We already know there was all kinds of blood and tissue back
there. The FBI confirmed that fact.
Post by Mitch Todd
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was
holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she
got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact
doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's
remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the
limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with
various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains.
Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of
knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
Fortunately however, we know WHEN she got it. Nellie heard
her say she had her husband's brains in her hand - "several
times".
(quote)
....and then after the third shot she said, "they have killed
my husband. I have his brains in my hand" and she repeated
that several times
(unquote)
But John Connally only heard it once.
"I heard her say one time, 'I have got his brains in my hand.'"
So, why did he only hear it once? The answer is simple.
"At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade,
out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain
consciousness until we got to the hospital"
From the time Jackie sat down to the time the limo started
to pull "out of line" to the right, was no more than 3 seconds.
She just didn't have time to find a piece of tissue, pick it
up and then make that statement.
Also, consider the fact that she said "they have killed my
husband".
That is not something she would have said 2 minutes later.
She had obviously, just discovered that his head was blown apart.
These statements could only have come immediately, after she
sat back down.
Robert Harris
She did *not* "pick" anything up! You are not paying attention what her
right hand does the instant it meets the trunk lid of the car!
Mitch Todd
2017-06-11 04:30:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Harris
Steve,
I appears that you didn't read the discussion Mitch and I had on this
subject. Even he agreed that she was trying to grab something. But she
didn't pick it up immediately.
What agreement?

This is what I wrote, with a smidgin of emphasis added:

"And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching *what* *he*
*thought* *Jackie* *was* *doing*. And if he didn't see it,
how can you argue that it was there in the first place?"

The implication here is pretty straightforward. I don't
think that Jackie was reaching for something.
Steve Barber
2017-06-08 02:41:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by Mitch Todd
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories" about why Mrs.
Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie reached back
across the trunk to recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw blown
to the rear by a second head shot.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her say
immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her husband's brains
in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she turned it
over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions. The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing something
off of the trunk. The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything. In fact, the first two argue
*against* your conclusion.
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right hand.
She's not picking anything up with her forearm, and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs anything that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film, even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not "grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that. Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto. Similarly, consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase "coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's account.
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo. Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it, how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains. Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
"Then, I heard a third shot and felt matter cover us and she said, "They
have killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand"."
She was speaking of Jackie, who had just gone back on the trunk and
Mr. DODD. OK. You did not immediately go unconscious?
Mr. CONNALLY. No, I did not. I knew exactly what was happening in the car
and I didn't testify to a moment ago but I should because I remember precisely
what my wife remembers. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say "they have killed my
husband," and then she said, in just an incredulous voice, I have got his
brains in my hand."
"As doctors prepared to call the time of death , Mrs. Kennedy slowly
walked over to Dr. Jenkins. She looked at him and silently, extended her
arms, her hands still cupped. He asked quietly, “Yes, Mrs.
Kennedy?” And with that, he held out his hand and in it, she
placed a small, two-inch portion of the president’s brain that
she’d been holding since the shooting, almost two hours earlier."
From: https://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/category/the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy/
WHAT?! "Almost two hours earlier"? That's BS! Also, there is no proof,
whatsoever that what she held in her hand came from the trunk lid of the
car! And it would behoove you to look up exactly how much brain was
actually blown off President Kennedy's brain, according to Dr. Baden.
Hint. It was nowhere near the amount that most of you think!
Post by mainframetech
And then we have the testimony of Bobby Hargis, motorcycle cop who was
Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22nd?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: I was.
Mr. STERN. In what position?
Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.
Mr. STERN. At what part of the President’s car?
Mr. HARGIS. Well-
Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?
Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.
Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HARGIS. Right."
.
.
.
"Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the
shot you have just described?
Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car
the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his
head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a
bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the
Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, “Get
going,” or “get going,“
From: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Hargis.pdf
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
Chris
mainframetech
2017-06-09 02:29:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
Post by Mitch Todd
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories" about why Mrs.
Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie reached back
across the trunk to recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw blown
to the rear by a second head shot.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her say
immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her husband's brains
in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she turned it
over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions. The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing something
off of the trunk. The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything. In fact, the first two argue
*against* your conclusion.
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right hand.
She's not picking anything up with her forearm, and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs anything that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film, even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not "grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that. Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto. Similarly, consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase "coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's account.
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo. Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it, how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains. Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
"Then, I heard a third shot and felt matter cover us and she said, "They
have killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand"."
She was speaking of Jackie, who had just gone back on the trunk and
Mr. DODD. OK. You did not immediately go unconscious?
Mr. CONNALLY. No, I did not. I knew exactly what was happening in the car
and I didn't testify to a moment ago but I should because I remember precisely
what my wife remembers. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say "they have killed my
husband," and then she said, in just an incredulous voice, I have got his
brains in my hand."
"As doctors prepared to call the time of death , Mrs. Kennedy slowly
walked over to Dr. Jenkins. She looked at him and silently, extended her
arms, her hands still cupped. He asked quietly, “Yes, Mrs.
Kennedy?” And with that, he held out his hand and in it, she
placed a small, two-inch portion of the president’s brain that
she’d been holding since the shooting, almost two hours earlier."
From: https://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/category/the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy/
WHAT?! "Almost two hours earlier"? That's BS! Also, there is no proof,
whatsoever that what she held in her hand came from the trunk lid of the
car! And it would behoove you to look up exactly how much brain was
actually blown off President Kennedy's brain, according to Dr. Baden.
Hint. It was nowhere near the amount that most of you think!
I agree that 2 hours is far too long a time. The author had to have
made a mistake. Here's a different version from a newspaper:

"Dr. M.T. "Pepper" Jenkins said the most haunting memory of Nov. 22, 1963,
was when then First Lady Jackie Kennedy walked up to him, held out her
hand and showed the doctor she was holding a piece of the president's
brain."She (Mrs. Kennedy) had been cradling his (the president's) brain in
her hand," said Jenkins to an audience Wednesday at Weber State
University."

From: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/317496/DALLAS-DOCTOR-RECALLS-DAY-HE-TRIED-TO-SAVE-DYING-JFK.html




You can read many of the statements and sworn testimony of the Bethesda
people and find that the brain had a large amount of it lost. That brain
material was spread all over the trunk and all over Bobby Hargis, a
motorcycle cop following the limo from the left and behind. Descriptions
of Parkland doctors and nurses of the 'large hole' in the BOH of JFK were
clear that brain matter was leaking out, and some was lost.
Post by Steve Barber
Post by mainframetech
And then we have the testimony of Bobby Hargis, motorcycle cop who was
Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22nd?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: I was.
Mr. STERN. In what position?
Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.
Mr. STERN. At what part of the President’s car?
Mr. HARGIS. Well-
Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?
Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.
Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HARGIS. Right."
.
.
.
"Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the
shot you have just described?
Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car
the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his
head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a
bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the
Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, “Get
going,” or “get going,“
From: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Hargis.pdf
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
Chris
Bill Clarke
2017-06-09 00:32:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <73996058-bf8f-45b8-8688-***@googlegroups.com>,
mainframetech says...
Post by mainframetech
Post by Mitch Todd
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories" about why Mrs=
.=20
Post by Mitch Todd
Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back across the trunk.
=20
This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie reached back=
=20
Post by Mitch Todd
across the trunk to recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw blown=
=20
Post by Mitch Todd
to the rear by a second head shot.
=20
=20
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
=20
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
=20
And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her say=20
immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her husband's brains=
=20
Post by Mitch Todd
in her hand.
=20
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she turned it=20
over to Dr. Jenkins.
=20
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
=20
=20
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
=20
=20
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions. The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing something
off of the trunk. The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
=20
None of these prove anything. In fact, the first two argue
*against* your conclusion.
=20
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right hand.
She's not picking anything up with her forearm, and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs anything that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film, even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
=20
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not "grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that. Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto. Similarly, consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase "coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's account.
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo. Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
=20
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it, how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
=20
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains. Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
The following is from the testimony of Nellie Connally:=20
"Then, I heard a third shot and felt matter cover us and she said, "They=20
have killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand"."=20
She was speaking of Jackie, who had just gone back on the trunk and=20
picked up something. Now we move on to John Connally:=20
I once watched Nellie Connally with my own eyes as she recounted how
Jackie was on the trunk trying to help the SS man get on the car. That is
so much horse manure. So is the picking up a piece of bone or what ever.
The poor woman was getting the hell out of Dodge; no excuse needed.
Post by mainframetech
Mr. DODD. OK. You did not immediately go unconscious?=20
Mr. CONNALLY. No, I did not. I knew exactly what was happening in the car=
=20
and I didn't testify to a moment ago but I should because I remember precis=
ely=20
what my wife remembers. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say "they have killed my=20
husband," and then she said, in just an incredulous voice, I have got his=
=20
brains in my hand."=20
Next, we have Dr. Marion Jenkins of Parkland:=20
"As doctors prepared to call the time of death , Mrs. Kennedy slowly=20
walked over to Dr. Jenkins. She looked at him and silently, extended her=
=20
arms, her hands still cupped. He asked quietly, =E2=80=9CYes, Mrs.=20
Kennedy?=E2=80=9D And with that, he held out his hand and in it, she=20
placed a small, two-inch portion of the president=E2=80=99s brain that=20
she=E2=80=99d been holding since the shooting, almost two hours earlier."=
=20
From: https://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/category/the-assassination-of-jo=
hn-f-kennedy/=20
And then we have the testimony of Bobby Hargis, motorcycle cop who was=
=20
pacing the limousine from behind and to the left:=20
Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22nd?=20
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: I was.=20
Mr. STERN. In what position?=20
Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.=20
Mr. STERN. At what part of the President=E2=80=99s car?=20
Mr. HARGIS. Well-=20
Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?=20
Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.=20
Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?=20
Mr. HARGIS. Right."=20
.=20
.=20
.=20
"Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the=
=20
shot you have just described?=20
Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?=20
Mr. STERN. Yes.=20
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car=20
the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his=
=20
head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a=20
bloody water. It wasn=E2=80=99t really blood. And at that time the=20
Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, =E2=80=9CGet=20
going,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cget going,=E2=80=9C=20
From: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Hargis.pd=
f=20
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.=20
Chris=20
Mitch Todd
2017-06-11 21:17:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by Mitch Todd
Recently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous "theories" about why Mrs.
Kennedy rose from her seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was correct. Jackie reached back
across the trunk to recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw blown
to the rear by a second head shot.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the Connallys heard her say
immediately, after sitting back down, that she had her husband's brains
in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland, where she turned it
over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Anyway, your article rests on three assertions. The first
is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie grabbing something
off of the trunk. The second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off the right
rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail." The third is
Mrs Kennedy's well-attested cry, "They have killed my
husband. I have his brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything. In fact, the first two argue
*against* your conclusion.
First: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right hand.
She's not picking anything up with her forearm, and her
right hand lands palm down with her fingers stretched out
and flat on the sheetmetal. No one grabs anything that
way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of flesh
are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film, even in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
Second: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not "grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that. Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto. Similarly, consider his
"something coming off of the rear bumper of the car, the
right rear tail." In particular, the phrase "coming off of."
Whatever the "something" was, it made a compleat Elvis of
itself and left the proverbial building in Hill's account.
The "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo. Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
And I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it, how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
Third: The should be little doubt that Jackie was holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains. Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
"Then, I heard a third shot and felt matter cover us and she said, "They
have killed my husband, I have his brains in my hand"."
She was speaking of Jackie, who had just gone back on the trunk and
If you look at the Zapruder film carefully, you'll see that
she doesn't actually pick anything up. He hand stays flat
with fingers extended on the trunk from the time it hits
metal to the time it help push her back into the seat.
Post by mainframetech
Mr. DODD. OK. You did not immediately go unconscious?
Mr. CONNALLY. No, I did not. I knew exactly what was happening in the car
and I didn't testify to a moment ago but I should because I remember precisely
what my wife remembers. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say "they have killed my
husband," and then she said, in just an incredulous voice, I have got his
brains in my hand."
Yep. And when did that happen, exactly? Also, what would have
stopped her from picking up any of the pieces of tissue in
the interior.
Post by mainframetech
"As doctors prepared to call the time of death , Mrs. Kennedy slowly
walked over to Dr. Jenkins. She looked at him and silently, extended her
arms, her hands still cupped. He asked quietly, “Yes, Mrs.
Kennedy?” And with that, he held out his hand and in it, she
placed a small, two-inch portion of the president’s brain that
she’d been holding since the shooting, almost two hours earlier."
From: https://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/category/the-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy/
So what? I've already said:

"there should be little doubt that Jackie was
holding some loose piece of brain tissue by
the time she got to Parkland."

Followed by:

"the problem for you is, that fact doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from."
Post by mainframetech
And then we have the testimony of Bobby Hargis, motorcycle cop who was
Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22nd?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: I was.
Mr. STERN. In what position?
Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.
Mr. STERN. At what part of the President’s car?
Mr. HARGIS. Well-
Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?
Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.
Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HARGIS. Right."
.
.
.
"Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the
shot you have just described?
Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. HARGIS. Yes: when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car
the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his
head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a
bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the
Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, “Get
going,” or “get going,“
From: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Hargis.pdf
Also, so what. Nothing Hargis said has any material
bearing on the question as to where Jackie got the
tissue from.
Post by mainframetech
So I think you can accept the information about Jackie now.
All I can accept is that you seem to need reading glasses.
And a thinking cap. I think you can get the latter on Etsy.
Loading...