Post by BOZ Post by David Von Pein Post by John McAdams Post by David Von Pein
I frankly could say I'm not too sympathetic to her [Ruth Paine], since she
was a mush-minded liberal. She thought learning Russian was a step toward
world peace. As though Americans not knowing Russian was the cause of the
Cold War. Then, later in the 60s, she seemed to move left, like other
Why does everything always seem to have to come down to "Right vs. Left"
with you, .John? It's ridiculous, IMO.
First of all, Steve brought up "right vs. left," mentioning the
liberal politics of the Paines.
Second, "right vs. left" is all over this case. Most conspiracists
are leftists who want to blame people the left doesn't like. But
right wingers, not surprisingly, blame communists.
As far as "CTers vs. LNers" are concerned, I've never been comfortable
labelling people "Leftists" or "Right-wingers". Therefore, I have never
engaged in such labelling. I don't like placing such definitive labels on
people, whether they are LNers or conspiracy believers.
Post by John McAdams
Post by David Von Pein
And when did Ruth Paine ever even *HINT* at the idea that "Americans not
knowing Russian was the cause of the Cold War"?
I'll answer that last question myself --- Never!
I said "as though."
Let me make you an analogy. I might say "Conspiracy people think *as
though* scores or hundreds of people would lie, fake evidence and
remain silent to cover up a conspiracy."
You might reply: "When did conspiracy people say that?"
They didn't, but they reasoned "as though" that was true.
OK. Point taken.
Post by John McAdams Post by David Von Pein
I can't believe you said such a ludicrous thing, John.
You need to check out Mallon, p. 24.
Ruth had been studying Russian since 1957--at Berlitz, on photograph
records, in summer classes at Penn and Middlebury. Her interest in
the language itself was only increased by participation in the Young
Friends organization, specifically its East-West Contacts Committee,
which sponsored the American travels of three young Soviets--a
journalist, a factory worker, and an economics student--in 1958....
She had more direct involvement with the Young Friends' pen-pal
program, a good-will exchange set up with the Committee of Youth
Organizations. . . .
In a different era, this might suggest communist sympathies, but in
the 50s and early 60s, mainstream liberalism was staunchly
anti-communist. JFK being the prime example.
I blamed her for "mush-minded liberalism," but credited her with being
sincere and well-intentioned. I don't dislike her. In fact I like
those 50s liberals way better than the current politically correct
The notion that learning other's languages is a strategy for "peace"
is not dead.
I seem to have punched one of your buttons. Perhaps you view her as a
victim. I do too, but I think she has been mature and self-confident
enough that buff vilification hasn't terribly harmed her.
It is true that when she went down to Central America with some
leftists who wanted to help install Marxist regimes, they were
paranoid about her, thinking she was a CIA spook.
She should have avoided such people.
It's just that I don't expect a prominent "LNer" to say something like
"I frankly could say I'm not too sympathetic to her, since she was a
mush-minded liberal." -- J. McAdams
That's a pretty harsh comment. And it's a comment that I don't think Ruth
The Ruth bashers are usually on the "CT" side of the debate (see top link
below). So I felt compelled to run to Ruth's defense.
You are perfectly comfortable labeling people as CTers vs. LNers." That's
We need labels to keep track of things.
I change Lone Nutter to WC defender to be less offensive. I do not call
all of them Nazis.
But it seems that there is still a Nazi enclave in the US:
New York enclave with Nazi roots agrees to change policies
By frank eltman, associated press
YAPHANK, N.Y. ??? May 20, 2017, 11:08 AM ET
In this May 22, 1938 photo provided by the New York City Municipal
Archives, a large swastika is surrounded by a white picket fence at Camp
Siegfried in Yaphank, N.Y. The enclave of former summer bungalows, where
Nazi sympathizers once proudly marcheThe Associated Press In this May 22,
1938 photo provided by the New York City Municipal Archives, a large
swastika is surrounded by a white picket fence at Camp Siegfried in
Yaphank, N.Y. The enclave of former summer bungalows, where Nazi
sympathizers once proudly marched near streets named for Adolf Hitler and
other Third Reich figures, is being forced to end policies that limited
ownership to people of German descent. (New York City Municipal Archives
via AP) more +
An enclave of former summer bungalows, where Nazi sympathizers once
proudly marched near streets named for Adolf Hitler and other Third
Reich figures, is being forced to end policies that limited ownership to
people of German descent.
The German American Settlement League, which once welcomed tens of
thousands in the 1930s to pro-Nazi marches at Camp Siegfried on eastern
Long Island, has settled an anti-discrimination case brought by New York
state. The settlement calls for a change in the league's leadership and
adherence to all state and federal housing laws.
Many residents in the tiny community of about 40 homes that is a small
part of the rural hamlet of Yaphank declined to speak on the record, but
those who did disputed their community is tainted by discrimination.
"There's a mixed bag; it's not like it was," said Fred Stern, a member
of the league's board and a 40-year resident, who conceded the community
was once primarily occupied by those of German descent. "It's not like
whatever they're saying. If you went to every house and asked people's
nationality, it wouldn't be any different than any other neighborhood."
Kaitlyn Webber told a television interviewer that her "family's always
been very open. We've never had any issues with anyone discriminating
against anyone up here."
The homes, which stretch down a narrow street called Private Road and
surround a large grassy ballfield along Schiller Court, are a combination
of small bungalows and larger suburban-type ranches. Lawns are carefully
landscaped and mailboxes ??? many with German surnames ??? sit street-side
in the curbless enclave.
News accounts recall a groundswell of Nazism in the enclave in the years
before the start of World War II. Camp Siegfried, where the homes stand
today, was sponsored by the German-American Bund to promote Hitler,
although many at the time also voraciously expressed loyalty to the
Trains from New York City's Penn Station were often jammed with people
who traveled 60 miles (96 kilometers) east to Yaphank. A New York Times
story from August 1938 reported 40,000 people had attended the annual
German Day festivities at Camp Siegfried.
Swastikas were commonplace, including on some of the homes in the
enclave at the time, said Geri Solomon, archivist at Hofstra University.
"Some of the photos I have seen are kind of amazing," Solomon said.
New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman said a 2016 settlement of a
federal lawsuit brought by two former residents, who claimed The German
American Settlement League policies hindered their attempts to sell
their homes, called for an end to discriminatory practices. That
settlement paid the former residents, who eventually did sell and moved
out of state, $175,000.
Despite that agreement, Schneiderman found the league "continued to make
new membership and property re-sale within the GASL community
The league owns the land on which the homes are situated and leases the
property to homeowners, Schneiderman said. State investigators found
that the league prohibited public advertisement of properties for sale.
Members seeking to sell their homes could only announce a listing in
person at member meetings or through internal flyers and meeting minutes
circulated to the existing membership.
Stern, the league's board member, conceded that much of the real estate
turnover through the years had taken place by word of mouth. There was
no need to advertise a sale, he said, because "everybody knew when a
house would become available." He blamed the complaints by the couple
who brought the federal lawsuit on sour grapes, contending they had
asked too much money for their home and that was the reason it didn't
Stern said homes in the community range in price from about $95,000 for
a small bungalow to $300,000 or more.
An attorney for the couple involved in the 2016 settlement declined to
comment on the attorney general's announcement.
Schneiderman's settlement with the league calls for the immediate
replacement of the organization's leadership, and requires it to
regularly report compliance.
An attorney representing the league did not return emails seeking comment.
Associated Press investigative researcher Randy Herschaft contributed to
Online: New York City Department of Records