Discussion:
Map showing why Weiss and Aschkenasy Interpretation is wrong
Add Reply
GKnoll
2018-06-04 23:42:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2

The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)

On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.

The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.

The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.

The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.

The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.

The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?

Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions

1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.

From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which BBN
applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape because it
has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A did their
measurements. Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don Thomas has it
and I would think that he would have given you a copy. Michael ODell has a
copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask Don Thomas for a
copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient yourself on that tape.
Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A interpretation PROPERLY, should
have a copy of that tape. You need this tape (and a means to display it
and work with it) in order to properly analyze the W&A interpretation.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-08 00:59:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
Except that the map that W&A were using to measure that location was off
by 3 feet. It's OK if all you need is a loose fit over a long distance.
Post by GKnoll
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which
BBN applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape
because it has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A
did their measurements. Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don
Thomas has it and I would think that he would have given you a copy.
Michael ODell has a copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask
Don Thomas for a copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient
yourself on that tape. Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A
interpretation PROPERLY, should have a copy of that tape. You need this
tape (and a means to display it and work with it) in order to properly
analyze the W&A interpretation.
g***@gmail.com
2018-06-15 13:58:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
Except that the map that W&A were using to measure that location was off
by 3 feet. It's OK if all you need is a loose fit over a long distance.
Post by GKnoll
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which
BBN applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape
because it has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A
did their measurements. Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don
Thomas has it and I would think that he would have given you a copy.
Michael ODell has a copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask
Don Thomas for a copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient
yourself on that tape. Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A
interpretation PROPERLY, should have a copy of that tape. You need this
tape (and a means to display it and work with it) in order to properly
analyze the W&A interpretation.
If you get the HSC.wav file that I have been asking you to get, you can
pick the same peaks that W&A picked and plot them on YOUR map.

The HSC.wav file is a copy of the same file that W&A used. Impulses from
that file are what they published in their report.
GKnoll
2018-06-11 14:25:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which
BBN applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape
because it has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A
did their measurements. Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don
Thomas has it and I would think that he would have given you a copy.
Michael ODell has a copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask
Don Thomas for a copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient
yourself on that tape. Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A
interpretation PROPERLY, should have a copy of that tape. You need this
tape (and a means to display it and work with it) in order to properly
analyze the W&A interpretation.
Marsh, did you get that tape yet from Don Thomas? You need to get that
tape.
GKnoll
2018-06-12 02:38:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which
BBN applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape
because it has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A
did their measurements. Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don
Thomas has it and I would think that he would have given you a copy.
Michael ODell has a copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask
Don Thomas for a copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient
yourself on that tape. Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A
interpretation PROPERLY, should have a copy of that tape. You need this
tape (and a means to display it and work with it) in order to properly
analyze the W&A interpretation.
Anthony Marsh,

Get the HSC.wav file from Don Thomas.

Then go to the Audacity website and download and install their free
version.

https://www.audacityteam.org/

Once you get that file and Audacity, I can help you locate the places on
the tape where W&A took their measurements.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-13 14:58:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GKnoll
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of
an echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts
show the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot
impulses on the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape,
which is the tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll
shot impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter,
which means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired
from the knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this
they got a .8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and
Aschkenasy located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the
knoll shot impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN
obtained their pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo
correlation, to determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in
red. In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a
reflection from the west wall of the county records building. However,
in the W&A interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did
not show those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we
have the Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the
Post Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to
match any structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not
interpret them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean
that the W&A interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for
the impulses on the tape was given by BBN in their initial location
for the knoll impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to
you but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
 From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have
figured out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape
to which BBN applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of
the tape because it has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from
which W&A did their measurements. Why you do not have it is a mystery
to me, Don Thomas has it and I would think that he would have given
you a copy. Michael ODell has a copy and I have a copy. I would
suggest that you ask Don Thomas for a copy. Once you get the copy I
will help you orient yourself on that tape. Anyone who is going to
analyze the W&A interpretation PROPERLY, should have a copy of that
tape. You need this tape (and a means to display it and work with it)
in order to properly analyze the W&A interpretation.
Anthony Marsh,
Get the HSC.wav file from Don Thomas.
Then go to the Audacity website and download and install their free
version.
https://www.audacityteam.org/
Once you get that file and Audacity, I can help you locate the places on
the tape where W&A took their measurements.
I'm allergic to some viruses. Sometimes my anti-virus program won't even
let my browser go to a web site.
g***@gmail.com
2018-06-15 01:50:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by GKnoll
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of
an echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts
show the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot
impulses on the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape,
which is the tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll
shot impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter,
which means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired
from the knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this
they got a .8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and
Aschkenasy located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the
knoll shot impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN
obtained their pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo
correlation, to determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in
red. In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a
reflection from the west wall of the county records building. However,
in the W&A interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did
not show those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we
have the Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the
Post Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to
match any structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not
interpret them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean
that the W&A interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for
the impulses on the tape was given by BBN in their initial location
for the knoll impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to
you but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
 From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have
figured out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape
to which BBN applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of
the tape because it has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from
which W&A did their measurements. Why you do not have it is a mystery
to me, Don Thomas has it and I would think that he would have given
you a copy. Michael ODell has a copy and I have a copy. I would
suggest that you ask Don Thomas for a copy. Once you get the copy I
will help you orient yourself on that tape. Anyone who is going to
analyze the W&A interpretation PROPERLY, should have a copy of that
tape. You need this tape (and a means to display it and work with it)
in order to properly analyze the W&A interpretation.
Anthony Marsh,
Get the HSC.wav file from Don Thomas.
Then go to the Audacity website and download and install their free
version.
https://www.audacityteam.org/
Once you get that file and Audacity, I can help you locate the places on
the tape where W&A took their measurements.
I'm allergic to some viruses. Sometimes my anti-virus program won't even
let my browser go to a web site.
Did you get the HSC.wav file from Don Thomas? If not ask Michael O'Dell
for a copy.

Once you get that copy I can help you get the audacity software where you
will not have to worry about getting a virus.
odellm
2018-06-14 02:14:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
If W&A did not use those impulses in their analysis, then please explain
how exactly they present a problem for them.
Post by GKnoll
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which BBN
applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape because it
has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A did their
measurements.
You are guessing at this, and it's wrong. Berkovitz didn't have some
mystery tape. He had the same ones we have. He did some preprocessing on
the clip he used in the program.
Post by GKnoll
Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don Thomas has it
and I would think that he would have given you a copy. Michael ODell has a
copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask Don Thomas for a
copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient yourself on that tape.
Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A interpretation PROPERLY, should
have a copy of that tape. You need this tape (and a means to display it
and work with it) in order to properly analyze the W&A interpretation.
Michael
GKnoll
2018-06-15 01:09:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
If W&A did not use those impulses in their analysis, then please explain
how exactly they present a problem for them.
I explained it below.
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which BBN
applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape because it
has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A did their
measurements.
You are guessing at this, and it's wrong. Berkovitz didn't have some
mystery tape. He had the same ones we have. He did some preprocessing on
the clip he used in the program.
No I am not guessing at this and it is not wrong.

Read what I wrote, I said that the Berkovitz tape is a copy of the tape
to which BBN applied the adaptive filter. And it is.
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don Thomas has it
and I would think that he would have given you a copy. Michael ODell has a
copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask Don Thomas for a
copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient yourself on that tape.
Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A interpretation PROPERLY, should
have a copy of that tape. You need this tape (and a means to display it
and work with it) in order to properly analyze the W&A interpretation.
Michael
odellm
2018-06-16 05:42:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by GKnoll
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
If W&A did not use those impulses in their analysis, then please explain
how exactly they present a problem for them.
I explained it below.
No you aren't explaining it. You are asserting a potential problem with the W&A interpretation based on the fact that peaks they never claimed were echoes, can't be echoes. Explain why that should be considered a problem.
Post by GKnoll
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which BBN
applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape because it
has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A did their
measurements.
You are guessing at this, and it's wrong. Berkovitz didn't have some
mystery tape. He had the same ones we have. He did some preprocessing on
the clip he used in the program.
No I am not guessing at this and it is not wrong.
You are, and it is.
Post by GKnoll
Read what I wrote, I said that the Berkovitz tape is a copy of the tape
to which BBN applied the adaptive filter. And it is.
I know what you wrote. There's nothing special about his recording.
Post by GKnoll
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don Thomas has it
and I would think that he would have given you a copy. Michael ODell has a
copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask Don Thomas for a
copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient yourself on that tape.
Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A interpretation PROPERLY, should
have a copy of that tape. You need this tape (and a means to display it
and work with it) in order to properly analyze the W&A interpretation.
Michael
g***@gmail.com
2018-06-17 01:02:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
If W&A did not use those impulses in their analysis, then please explain
how exactly they present a problem for them.
I explained it below.
No you aren't explaining it. You are asserting a potential problem with the W&A interpretation based on the fact that peaks they never claimed were echoes, can't be echoes. Explain why that should be considered a problem.
My argument is not based on the fact that peaks they never claimed were
echoes can't be echoes.

Your response shows that you do not understand what I wrote and I cannot
understand it for you.
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which BBN
applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape because it
has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A did their
measurements.
You are guessing at this, and it's wrong. Berkovitz didn't have some
mystery tape. He had the same ones we have. He did some preprocessing on
the clip he used in the program.
No I am not guessing at this and it is not wrong.
You are, and it is.
Post by GKnoll
Read what I wrote, I said that the Berkovitz tape is a copy of the tape
to which BBN applied the adaptive filter. And it is.
I know what you wrote. There's nothing special about his recording.
If you know what I wrote then I never said there was anything special
about the recording. You are the one who said that. Not me. I said it was
the recording to which BBN applied the Adaptive Filter.
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don Thomas has it
and I would think that he would have given you a copy. Michael ODell has a
copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask Don Thomas for a
copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient yourself on that tape.
Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A interpretation PROPERLY, should
have a copy of that tape. You need this tape (and a means to display it
and work with it) in order to properly analyze the W&A interpretation.
Michael
GKnoll
2018-06-15 01:50:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xfIC7GYD8N7eySmU2
The link is to a scale map of Dealey Plaza. The map was made by
reflecting the Drommer Topographic Survey about the center of Main
Street. The Post Office is seen in the bottom of the map. Doing this
allows one to calculate an accurate measurement of the delay time of an
echo from the Post Office. (about 720 ms)
On the right side of the map are two strip charts. The strip charts show
the two interpretations for the location of the knoll shot impulses on
the Berkovitz tape, which is a replica of the BBN tape, which is the
tape to which BBN applied the adaptive filter.
The top strip chart shows the initial interpretation for the knoll shot
impulses. BBN obtained this location by using a match filter, which
means, they matched the echo pattern from an test shot fired from the
knoll to the impulse pattern on the tape. When they did this they got a
.8 correlation coefficient.
The bottom chart is the location on the tape where Weiss and Aschkenasy
located the impulses for the knoll shot. They moved the knoll shot
impulses "upstream" about 250 milliseconds from where BBN obtained their
pattern match. W&A used a different method, echo correlation, to
determine the location for the knoll shot impulses.
The map on the left shows the impulses relative to the W&A
interpretation. The shooter is located where W&A put him and the
microphone is located 97 feet south and 27 feet east of the corner of
the TSBD, which is where W&A located the open microphone.
The problem for the W&A interpretation is the packet of impulses in red.
In the BBN interpretaton those impulses are associated with a reflection
from the west wall of the county records building. However, in the W&A
interpretation, those impulses have been abandoned. W&A did not show
those impulses in their report. They ignored them. Today we have the
Berkovitz file, and we know about those impulses colored red.
If W&A did not use those impulses in their analysis, then please explain
how exactly they present a problem for them.
I explained it below.
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
The question is, relative to the W&A interpretaton, what do those
impulses colored red represent? They do not match an echo from the Post
Office. In fact, when placed on the map, they do not appear to match any
structure in Dealey Plaza. Does this mean that we should not interpret
them as an echo in the W&A interpretation? Or does it mean that the W&A
interpretation is wrong and the the correct location for the impulses on
the tape was given by BBN in their initial location for the knoll
impulses(the top strip chart)?
Special note to Marsh. March I will take the time to explain this to you
but only on two conditions
1)You keep an open mind (no knee-jerk reactions) and
2)You inform Don Thomas about W&A's abandoned impulses.
From the odell discussions and the strip charts you should have figured
out that there is a tape out there that is a copy of the tape to which BBN
applied the adaptive filter. It is the best version of the tape because it
has the least amount of noise. It is the tape from which W&A did their
measurements.
You are guessing at this, and it's wrong. Berkovitz didn't have some
mystery tape. He had the same ones we have. He did some preprocessing on
the clip he used in the program.
No, I am not guessing at this and it is not wrong.

Read what I wrote, I said that the Berkovitz tape is a copy of the tape
to which BBN applied the adaptive filter. And it is.

Here is a quote from the Robert Berkovitz article "Searching for
Historic Noise".

[quote]
The distinctive appearance and sound of the HSC recording can be
attributed at least in part to the digital filtering applied to the
recording before analysis.

[here Berkovitz is quoting the BBN report which describes the filters]

The recorded outputs from both filters for the full 5 minutes were
compared, examined, and plotted on a scale where 5 in. equals 1/10 sec. ???
[end berkovitz quoting bbn report]

One filter was an adaptive filter, whose function is described in the
BBN report.

[berkovitz again quoting bbn report]

One property of periodic components is that, given sufficient past
history, they can be predicted; indeed, a perfectly periodic signal can be
predicted perfectly. The filter ???learns??? from the past history of the
signal, estimates the signal for the next time period, and subtracts its
estimate from the input. What is left are those portions of the signal
that the filter cannot estimate, i.e., the random components. [end
berkovitz quoting bbn report]

[end quote]
Post by odellm
Post by GKnoll
Why you do not have it is a mystery to me, Don Thomas has it
and I would think that he would have given you a copy. Michael ODell has a
copy and I have a copy. I would suggest that you ask Don Thomas for a
copy. Once you get the copy I will help you orient yourself on that tape.
Anyone who is going to analyze the W&A interpretation PROPERLY, should
have a copy of that tape. You need this tape (and a means to display it
and work with it) in order to properly analyze the W&A interpretation.
Michael
Loading...