Discussion:
Simple Logic
(too old to reply)
claviger
2017-06-11 21:18:50 UTC
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Amy,

A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.

Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.

TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.

Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.

Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.

Secret Service Agents heard shots coming from:

Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0

A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.

How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Jason Burke
2017-06-12 14:25:36 UTC
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Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Obviously because she NEEDS to to believe her fantasy.
Amy Joyce
2017-06-13 13:54:04 UTC
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Post by Jason Burke
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Obviously because she NEEDS to to believe her fantasy.
Jason, that's rude and presumptuous. At least Claviger asked me about an
assumption he/she made, but you actually attempted to answer without
having a clue about what I think or believe.

The denigrating comments you have made to me, and similar ones I've seen
directed to and about others, is why I don't think this forum is for me.
Is it that hard to have a discussion without attacking someone's
character?
Jason Burke
2017-06-14 00:18:19 UTC
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Post by Amy Joyce
Post by Jason Burke
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Obviously because she NEEDS to to believe her fantasy.
Jason, that's rude and presumptuous. At least Claviger asked me about an
Too bad it's the truth, Amy.
Post by Amy Joyce
assumption he/she made, but you actually attempted to answer without
having a clue about what I think or believe.
I really don't care what you believe, Amy. Though I'd bet dollars to
donuts that you believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, Amy.
Post by Amy Joyce
The denigrating comments you have made to me, and similar ones I've seen
directed to and about others, is why I don't think this forum is for me.
Is it that hard to have a discussion without attacking someone's
character?
No one is attacking your character, Amy. Rather, it's your foolish and
unfounded beliefs that are being attacked, Amy. I'm sure your character
is fine, Amy.
Anthony Marsh
2017-06-14 00:20:03 UTC
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Post by Amy Joyce
Post by Jason Burke
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Obviously because she NEEDS to to believe her fantasy.
Jason, that's rude and presumptuous. At least Claviger asked me about an
assumption he/she made, but you actually attempted to answer without
having a clue about what I think or believe.
The denigrating comments you have made to me, and similar ones I've seen
directed to and about others, is why I don't think this forum is for me.
Is it that hard to have a discussion without attacking someone's
character?
WC defenders have to argue that way. They can not admit even the
smallest fact, because some kook will claim that it proves conspiracy.
Anthony Marsh
2017-06-12 14:26:33 UTC
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Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Selection bias.
mainframetech
2017-06-12 23:57:16 UTC
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Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
That's not very nice. You've left out that there were many listeners
that heard shots from the Grassy Knoll area, as well as the TSBD area.
With the flat concrete walls at the overpass and the buildings\ around the
area, there would be sounds all over the place and they could not be used
to locate shooters.

Chris
bigdog
2017-06-14 02:52:02 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
That's not very nice. You've left out that there were many listeners
that heard shots from the Grassy Knoll area, as well as the TSBD area.
With the flat concrete walls at the overpass and the buildings\ around the
area, there would be sounds all over the place and they could not be used
to locate shooters.
Bingo!!! That means no one could use sound alone to locate the shooter.
The fact that some believed the sounds seemed to come from the GK is not
an indicator that the sounds actually came from the GK. On the other hand
those who visually spotted the shooter in the sniper's nest gave us clear
evidence of where the shooter was located. Those witnesses were later
corroborated by the finding of spent shells at that location. No
corroboration for those who thought they heard shots coming from
elsewhere.
mainframetech
2017-06-14 21:34:28 UTC
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
That's not very nice. You've left out that there were many listeners
that heard shots from the Grassy Knoll area, as well as the TSBD area.
With the flat concrete walls at the overpass and the buildings\ around the
area, there would be sounds all over the place and they could not be used
to locate shooters.
Bingo!!! That means no one could use sound alone to locate the shooter.
The fact that some believed the sounds seemed to come from the GK is not
an indicator that the sounds actually came from the GK. On the other hand
those who visually spotted the shooter in the sniper's nest gave us clear
evidence of where the shooter was located. Those witnesses were later
corroborated by the finding of spent shells at that location. No
corroboration for those who thought they heard shots coming from
elsewhere.
Here we go again! Seeing a gun out the window and finding shells does
not prove that any bullet from that gun hit or hurt anyone. And in fact,
none did. For instance, the bullet that was probably the final kill shot
that hit the head of JFK, left a trail of fine particles that would never
have come from a FMJ bullet like the MC type ammunition. Those bullets
when striking a solid object, merely crunch up into a messy ball, like
this:


Loading Image...

This bullet was in the front seat of the limousine, and probably was
the one that struck the overhead chrome bar, backed by steel.

Loading Image...

Note that the bullet didn't break into fine particles shown in the
X-rays of JFK's head.


Above is one of the 2 bullets that were found after the murder. Here
is the other one found on the WRONG gurney at Parkland:

Loading Image...

The first bullet to the left is the CE399, supposedly the bullet found
on a gurney at Parkland. It was NOT found in any body anywhere. The next
2 bullets are 2 shots of a single test bullet (CE572). This bullet has
exactly the same slight bend and flattening in the middle, and both have a
bit of material missing from the tail end. The CE399 is a test bullet
that replaced the original bullet found on the gurney.

The rightmost bullet is a test bullet that was fired into the wrist of
a cadaver. Note that it didn't go into fine particles when striking the
wrist bone.

Any noise about the MC rifle killing JFK is just that. Noise. There
is no proof that those bullets hit or hurt anyone.

Chris
Anthony Marsh
2017-06-15 17:34:50 UTC
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
That's not very nice. You've left out that there were many listeners
that heard shots from the Grassy Knoll area, as well as the TSBD area.
With the flat concrete walls at the overpass and the buildings\ around the
area, there would be sounds all over the place and they could not be used
to locate shooters.
Bingo!!! That means no one could use sound alone to locate the shooter.
False. An experienced hunter like Baker could tell that the shot came
from high on some building at the corner.
Post by bigdog
The fact that some believed the sounds seemed to come from the GK is not
an indicator that the sounds actually came from the GK. On the other hand
Exactly, which is why the HSCA used science to prove it.
Post by bigdog
those who visually spotted the shooter in the sniper's nest gave us clear
evidence of where the shooter was located. Those witnesses were later
Sorta. Euins pointed up to that window.
Post by bigdog
corroborated by the finding of spent shells at that location. No
Not my theory, but some people claim that the empties were planted there.
Post by bigdog
corroboration for those who thought they heard shots coming from
elsewhere.
Not one or the other. Both.
Amy Joyce
2017-06-13 13:53:23 UTC
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Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Claviger,

Apparently you are assuming that I don't believe there was a shooter in
window of the 6th floor TSBD, because I never said that. I also didn't
say that I don't think shots came from there or that I was ignoring what
witnesses said. Where did you get your information?
Anthony Marsh
2017-06-14 00:20:23 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Amy Joyce
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Claviger,
Apparently you are assuming that I don't believe there was a shooter in
window of the 6th floor TSBD, because I never said that. I also didn't
say that I don't think shots came from there or that I was ignoring what
witnesses said. Where did you get your information?
For the record I know of only one sentient being in this quadrant of the
universe who claims that all the shots came from the grassy knoll and
none came from the TSBD and David does not post here. Anyone trying to
put words in your mouth like that is just dishonest and can't debate
honestly. That's why they post here.
claviger
2017-06-14 19:00:54 UTC
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Post by Amy Joyce
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Claviger,
Apparently you are assuming that I don't believe there was a shooter in
window of the 6th floor TSBD, because I never said that. I also didn't
say that I don't think shots came from there or that I was ignoring what
witnesses said. Where did you get your information?
Can you provide a brief overview of your own theory about this historic
case based on what you've read or seen prior to joining this Newsgroup?
This is a contentious group of members who can be direct in their
unvarnished opinions but study friend and foe alike. I already know what
they believe, but I want to read what you think so don't let any of them
them overwhelm you, and don't be afraid to change your mind based on valid
evidence. I became an instant CT after seeing the Zapruder Film on TV and
remained so for over a decade. I was vociferous about it too.

However the more information I studied changed my opinion over time. You
are allowed to have your own opinion too so don't be bashful, but do be
prepared to support your theory with tangible evidence. Have courage to
speak out but also have the courage to learn.

By chance did you take Debate or Speech class in high school? What about
Logic or Philosophy in college? Did you ever read any information or
attend any lectures about what is called Classic Logic
Inductive-Deductive-Abductive Reasoning, some refer to as Wholistic
Thinking, Rational Thinking, Formal Thinking, or Matrix Analysis in
Computer Science? Maybe you heard of Piaget's Formal Operational Stage or
the classic Socratic Method? If not, basic Common Sense will do for
sentient beings on Planet Earth.

The college I attended was proud of their English department. We learned
about the art of Persuasive Writing as authors try to seduce you into
accepting their point of view. As you might expect we got a large dose of
that in Speech 101 as well. As a Freshman I was naive about that stuff
but fascinated by all the subtle techniques used by writers, columnists,
and editorials to manipulate their readers. Same is true of talking heads
on cable TV. Much of that discourse involves logical fallacies and is
more about presentation rather than content. The sound bite world we live
in is the primary cause of this stoccato method of debate so popular on
Cable TV. No space or airtime allocated for subtleties and nuance.

By any chance were you a Science Major who studied the The Scientific
Method? Perhaps you grew up in a family that emphasized Common Sense and
Clear Thinking or maybe your friends participate in ongoing discussions
about world events. Perhaps you are a voracious reader of books and
magazine articles.

Even if none of the above, what motivated you to join this Newsgroup?
Robert Harris
2017-06-13 18:46:45 UTC
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Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Yes and that same majority heard ONE early shot, a delay and then two
closely bunched shots at the end. That fact was confirmed by the Warren
Commission.

Did you just forget to mention that:-)
Post by claviger
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
I don't recall that many, but it doesn't really matter. There
undoubtedly, was a shooter in that window.
Post by claviger
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
No sir, that is incorrect. Only ONE of them claimed to have heard three
shots from above. The other two heard the first shot from below them.
Would you like citations?

Please don't post false information.
Post by claviger
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
You really need to post verbatim citations. Yarborough said,

"When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed
to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what
I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what
I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots
(calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half
seconds after the second shot--by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a
long time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between
the second and third shots"

Give the man credit where it was due. "this would have put the third
shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot.."

The time between 285 and 313, was exactly "one and one-half seconds".

I guess you just forgot to mention that, eh Claviger:-)
Post by claviger
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
That's not surprising, since the shots at 150, 285 and 313, which were
the only audible ones, ALL came from the rear.



Robert Harris
claviger
2017-06-14 02:55:02 UTC
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Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Yes and that same majority heard ONE early shot, a delay and then two
closely bunched shots at the end. That fact was confirmed by the Warren
Commission.
Did you just forget to mention that:-)
The overall point is a majority of witnesses heard 3 shots, period.

Some heard the first two closer to gather, some heard shots evenly
spaced, a majority witnesses heard the last 2 shots closer together.

The Zapruder Film supports 3 shots evenly spaced.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
I don't recall that many, but it doesn't really matter. There
undoubtedly, was a shooter in that window.
Outside witnesses:
H L BRENNAN
MRS E CABELL
M O COUCH
J N CRAWFORD
R E EDWARDS
A L EUINS
R B FISHER
R H JACKSON
J R WORRELL

Inside witnesses:
J E JARMAN JR
H NORMAN
B R WILLIAMS
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
No sir, that is incorrect. Only ONE of them claimed to have heard three
shots from above. The other two heard the first shot from below them.
Would you like citations?
Please don't post false information.
JAMES JARMAN
Mr. BALL - After the motorcade passed, what happened?
Mr. JARMAN - After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm,
then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then
--I thought it was a backfire.
Mr. BALL - You thought it was what?
Mr. JARMAN - A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President.
And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And
then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started
falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then
the third shot was fired right behind the second one.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm


HAROLD NORMAN
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds
later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from
directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the
floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall
from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired
the shots was directly above me.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm


BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention
to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot,
it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot.
And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we were on cement
fell on my head.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
You really need to post verbatim citations. Yarborough said,
"When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed
to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what
I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what
I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots
(calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half
seconds after the second shot--by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a
long time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between
the second and third shots"
Give the man credit where it was due. "this would have put the third
shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot.."
The time between 285 and 313, was exactly "one and one-half seconds".
I guess you just forgot to mention that, eh Claviger:-)
Affidavit Of Ralph W. Yarborough

After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the
cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the
Parkland Hospital.

I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from my right rear. I
saw people fall to the ground on the embankment to our right, at about the
time of or after the second shot, but before the cavalcade started up and
raced away.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/yarborou.htm
Robert Harris
2017-06-14 19:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 1:46:46 PM UTC-5, Robert
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Yes and that same majority heard ONE early shot, a delay
and then two
Post by Robert Harris
closely bunched shots at the end. That fact was confirmed
by the Warren
Post by Robert Harris
Commission.
Did you just forget to mention that:-)
The overall point is a majority of witnesses heard 3
shots, period.
Yes, they heard three of the shots, but THE TIMING OF THE
SHOTS IS INFINITELY MORE IMPORTANT!!

The FACT that they heard only one of the early shots is
*IMPORTANT*.

The fact that they heard closely bunched shots at the end is
*IMPORTANT*.

Why would you withhold that information from your readers??
Some heard the first two closer to gather, some heard
shots evenly
spaced, a majority witnesses heard the last 2 shots closer
together.
They are the overwhelming consensus.

ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THE LIMO HEARD *ONE* EARLY SHOT.

All of them.

Don't you think your readers would want to know that?
The Zapruder Film supports 3 shots evenly spaced.
The Zapruder film tells us what was visible.

It shows us dramatic startle responses following the shots at
285 and 313.

But it shows NO STARTLE RESPONSES following any of the early
shots.

Think man, think a little bit.

This stuff is not complicated.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
I don't recall that many, but it doesn't really matter.
There
Post by Robert Harris
undoubtedly, was a shooter in that window.
H L BRENNAN
MRS E CABELL
M O COUCH
J N CRAWFORD
R E EDWARDS
A L EUINS
R B FISHER
R H JACKSON
J R WORRELL
J E JARMAN JR
H NORMAN
B R WILLIAMS
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
No sir, that is incorrect. Only ONE of them claimed to
have heard three
Post by Robert Harris
shots from above. The other two heard the first shot from
below them.
Post by Robert Harris
Would you like citations?
Please don't post false information.
JAMES JARMAN
Mr. BALL - After the motorcade passed, what happened?
Mr. JARMAN - After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm,
then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it
was then
--I thought it was a backfire.
Mr. BALL - You thought it was what?
Mr. JARMAN - A backfire or an officer giving a salute to
the President.
Why did you not mention this?

Representative FORD - Where did you think the sound of the
first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came
from below. That is what I thought.

Representative FORD - As you looked out the window and you
were looking at the President's car.

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Representative FORD - Did you have a distinct impression as
to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?

Mr. JARMAN - I am sure it came from the left.


Did you know that the third floor of the Daltex building,
where the ONLY professional criminal in Dealey Plaza that day
was positioned, just happened to be below and to the left of
those men??

You said all of them claimed that all the shots came from
above them. You were wrong.
And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much
about it. And
then the second shot was fired, and that is when the
people started
falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped
forward, and then
the third shot was fired right behind the second one.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm
HAROLD NORMAN
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and
several seconds
later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had
come from
directly above me, and I could hear the expended
cartridges fall to the
floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I
saw some dust fall
from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that
whoever had fired
the shots was directly above me.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
Norman is the ONLY one who claimed that all the shots came
from above them.
BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots
came from?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay
any attention
to it, because I did not know what was happening. The
second shot,
it sounded like it was right in the building, the second
and third shot.
And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we
were on cement
fell on my head.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm
Like Jarman, Williams thought the first shot came from below
them,

"first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody
even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was
two shots rather close together. The second and the third
shot was closer together than the first shot and the second
shot, as I remember."

Once again, he thought the first shot was a backfire or a
salute. Obviously, he did not think that shot came from the
6th floor.

You claimed those men said all three of the shots came from
above them, but that's not true.

Two of the three believed that the first shot came from below.

Oh, almost forgot. Williams also stated,

"The first shot--there was two shots rather close together.
The second and the third shot was closer together than the
first shot and the second shot"
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots
coming from the
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the
TSBD and heard 3
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
shots from that direction.
You really need to post verbatim citations. Yarborough said,
"When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade
slowed to what seemed
Post by Robert Harris
to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near
stop). After what
Post by Robert Harris
I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed
out, and after what
Post by Robert Harris
I took to be one-half the time between the first and
second shots
Post by Robert Harris
(calculated now, this would have put the third shot about
one and one-half
Post by Robert Harris
seconds after the second shot--by my estimate--to me
there seemed to be a
Post by Robert Harris
long time between the first and second shots, a much
shorter time between
Post by Robert Harris
the second and third shots"
Give the man credit where it was due. "this would have
put the third
Post by Robert Harris
shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot.."
The time between 285 and 313, was exactly "one and
one-half seconds".
Post by Robert Harris
I guess you just forgot to mention that, eh Claviger:-)
Affidavit Of Ralph W. Yarborough
After the third shot was fired, but only after the third
shot was fired, the
cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared
away to the
Parkland Hospital.
I'm not sure what your point is here.
I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from
my right rear. I
Yes, all of the first *audible* shots DID from the rear. I've
been saying that for over 20 years.

But you keep ignoring the 800 pound elephant in the room -
THE SPACING OF THE SHOTS.

"there seemed to be a long time between the first and second
shots, a much shorter time between the second and third shots"

Have you studied the Zapruder film?

Are you aware that there were at least, two early shots, at
223 and before 223.

But like John Connally, nobody heard the 223 shot. Quite a
few heard the one circa frame 150, but even it wasn't loud
enough to provoke startle responses like we see, following
285 and 313.

Loading Image...

I hope you will take a moment to read this short article. I
promise, it is totally different from arguments you have
heard from other CT's

And I wrote it mainly for nutters:-)



Robert Harris
Robert Harris
2017-06-15 17:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Yes and that same majority heard ONE early shot, a delay and then two
closely bunched shots at the end. That fact was confirmed by the Warren
Commission.
Did you just forget to mention that:-)
The overall point is a majority of witnesses heard 3 shots, period.
Yes, they heard three of the shots, but THE TIMING OF THE SHOTS IS
INFINITELY MORE IMPORTANT!!
The FACT that they heard only one of the early shots is *IMPORTANT*.
The fact that they heard closely bunched shots at the end is *IMPORTANT*.
Why would you withhold that information from your readers??
Post by claviger
Some heard the first two closer to gather, some heard shots evenly
spaced, a majority witnesses heard the last 2 shots closer together.
They are the overwhelming consensus.
ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THE LIMO HEARD *ONE* EARLY SHOT.
All of them.
Don't you think your readers would want to know that?
Post by claviger
The Zapruder Film supports 3 shots evenly spaced.
The Zapruder film tells us what was visible.
It shows us dramatic startle responses following the shots at 285 and 313.
But it shows NO STARTLE RESPONSES following any of the early shots.
Think man, think a little bit.
This stuff is not complicated.
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
I don't recall that many, but it doesn't really matter. There
undoubtedly, was a shooter in that window.
H L BRENNAN
MRS E CABELL
M O COUCH
J N CRAWFORD
R E EDWARDS
A L EUINS
R B FISHER
R H JACKSON
J R WORRELL
J E JARMAN JR
H NORMAN
B R WILLIAMS
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
No sir, that is incorrect. Only ONE of them claimed to have heard three
shots from above. The other two heard the first shot from below them.
Would you like citations?
Please don't post false information.
JAMES JARMAN
Mr. BALL - After the motorcade passed, what happened?
Mr. JARMAN - After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm,
then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then
--I thought it was a backfire.
Mr. BALL - You thought it was what?
Mr. JARMAN - A backfire or an officer giving a salute to
the President.
Why did you not mention this?
Representative FORD - Where did you think the sound of the first shot
came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from
below. That is what I thought.
Representative FORD - As you looked out the window and you were looking
at the President's car.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - Did you have a distinct impression as to whether
the sound came from your left or from your right?
Mr. JARMAN - I am sure it came from the left.
Did you know that the third floor of the Daltex building, where the ONLY
professional criminal in Dealey Plaza that day was positioned, just
happened to be below and to the left of those men??
You said all of them claimed that all the shots came from above them.
You were wrong.
Post by claviger
And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And
then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started
falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then
the third shot was fired right behind the second one.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm
HAROLD NORMAN
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds
later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from
directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the
floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust
fall
Post by claviger
from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had
fired
Post by claviger
the shots was directly above me.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
Norman is the ONLY one who claimed that all the shots came from above them.
Post by claviger
BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention
to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot,
it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot.
And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we were on cement
fell on my head.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm
Like Jarman, Williams thought the first shot came from below them,
"first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody even maybe a
motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close
together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the
first shot and the second shot, as I remember."
Once again, he thought the first shot was a backfire or a salute.
Obviously, he did not think that shot came from the 6th floor.
You claimed those men said all three of the shots came from above them,
but that's not true.
Two of the three believed that the first shot came from below.
Oh, almost forgot. Williams also stated,
"The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. The second
and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the
second shot"
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
You really need to post verbatim citations. Yarborough said,
"When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what
seemed
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After
what
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after
what
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots
(calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and
one-half
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
seconds after the second shot--by my estimate--to me there seemed to
be a
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
long time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time
between
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
the second and third shots"
Give the man credit where it was due. "this would have put the third
shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot.."
The time between 285 and 313, was exactly "one and one-half seconds".
I guess you just forgot to mention that, eh Claviger:-)
Affidavit Of Ralph W. Yarborough
After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was
fired, the
Post by claviger
cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the
Parkland Hospital.
I'm not sure what your point is here.
Post by claviger
I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from my right rear. I
Yes, all of the first *audible* shots DID from the rear. I've been
saying that for over 20 years.
But you keep ignoring the 800 pound elephant in the room - THE SPACING
OF THE SHOTS.
"there seemed to be a long time between the first and second shots, a
much shorter time between the second and third shots"
Have you studied the Zapruder film?
Are you aware that there were at least, two early shots, at 223 and
before 223.
But like John Connally, nobody heard the 223 shot. Quite a few heard the
one circa frame 150, but even it wasn't loud enough to provoke startle
responses like we see, following 285 and 313.
http://jfkhistory.com/WebArticle/ducking.gif
I hope you will take a moment to read this short article. I promise, it
is totally different from arguments you have heard from other CT's
And I wrote it mainly for nutters:-)
Strange, this link was on my backup copy of the post.

http://jfkhistory.com/WebArticle/article.html



Robert Harris

bigdog
2017-06-15 00:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Yes and that same majority heard ONE early shot, a delay and then two
closely bunched shots at the end. That fact was confirmed by the Warren
Commission.
Did you just forget to mention that:-)
The overall point is a majority of witnesses heard 3 shots, period.
Some heard the first two closer to gather, some heard shots evenly
spaced, a majority witnesses heard the last 2 shots closer together.
The Zapruder Film supports 3 shots evenly spaced.
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
I don't recall that many, but it doesn't really matter. There
undoubtedly, was a shooter in that window.
H L BRENNAN
MRS E CABELL
M O COUCH
J N CRAWFORD
R E EDWARDS
A L EUINS
R B FISHER
R H JACKSON
J R WORRELL
J E JARMAN JR
H NORMAN
B R WILLIAMS
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
No sir, that is incorrect. Only ONE of them claimed to have heard three
shots from above. The other two heard the first shot from below them.
Would you like citations?
Please don't post false information.
JAMES JARMAN
Mr. BALL - After the motorcade passed, what happened?
Mr. JARMAN - After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm,
then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then
--I thought it was a backfire.
Mr. BALL - You thought it was what?
Mr. JARMAN - A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President.
And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And
then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started
falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then
the third shot was fired right behind the second one.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm
HAROLD NORMAN
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds
later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from
directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the
floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall
from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired
the shots was directly above me.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention
to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot,
it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot.
And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we were on cement
fell on my head.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm
Post by Robert Harris
Post by claviger
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
You really need to post verbatim citations. Yarborough said,
"When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed
to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what
I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what
I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots
(calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half
seconds after the second shot--by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a
long time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between
the second and third shots"
Give the man credit where it was due. "this would have put the third
shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot.."
The time between 285 and 313, was exactly "one and one-half seconds".
I guess you just forgot to mention that, eh Claviger:-)
Affidavit Of Ralph W. Yarborough
After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the
cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the
Parkland Hospital.
I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from my right rear. I
saw people fall to the ground on the embankment to our right, at about the
time of or after the second shot, but before the cavalcade started up and
raced away.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/yarborou.htm
Yarborough's recollection that the shots came from the right rear mirrors
that of Ladybird who was riding in the same car. Ladybird recalls hearing
the first shot over her right shoulder as the limo was making the turn
onto Elm. That of course doesn't pinpoint the exact frame but does give us
a range consistent with the Dale Myers scenario. It also casts doubt on
the Max Holland theory that the shot was fired before Zapruder resumed
filming. Had it been fired that early, the first shot would have come from
in front of Yarborough and Ladybird.
donald willis
2017-06-14 02:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Amy,
A majority of earwitnesses heard 3 loud shots.
Nine witnesses saw a rifle in the 6th floor window.
Five of six witnesses saw the rifle or the suspect at a WIDE OPEN WINDOW:
Robert Jackson, Malcolm Couch (though he wasn't sure), Robert Edwards,
Ronald Fischer, and Howard Brennan. Among those asked at the hearings
about this, only one, Amos Euins, said the window was half open. And he
initially said that the suspect was "colored".
Post by claviger
TSBD employees on the 5th floor heard 3 shots above.
Two of those three did not report that they had even been on the 5th floor
until Sunday (Jarman) and Tuesday (Norman)....

dcw
Post by claviger
Two witnesses on top of the Grassy Knoll heard 3 shots coming from the
TSBD area.
Senator Yarborough was on the street in front of the TSBD and heard 3
shots from that direction.
Back to the right 10
From behind 1
Not sure 5
Grassy Knoll 0
A group of RR workers on top of the Triple Underpass descended on the
parking lot behind the wooden fence. A Police Officer stationed at the
intersection of Elm and Houston ran down the access lane in front of the
TSBD to the parking lot. Three Police Officers approached from Elm St and
searched the entire area. A RR employee in a two story tower could
observe the back of the pergola and wooden fence. None of these people
report seeing a man with a rifle anywhere in or around the parking lot.
How do you ignore all these witness to believe a loud shot came from the
Grassy Knoll?
Loading...