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Haag on Tague
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bigdog
2018-05-04 00:23:16 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html

This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.

Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
mainframetech
2018-05-04 23:32:47 UTC
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Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"? Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-06 00:30:39 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet. The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.

Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Your poor reading comprehension comes through again. I said I could not
express it AS WELL as Luke Tague did so it made more sense to me to just
let him speak for himself. As someone who prefers to paraphrase the words
of others and thus change the meaning of what they said, as you have done
several times just in this post, I guess that doesn't make sense to
you.
mainframetech
2018-05-06 23:29:01 UTC
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."

Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Your poor reading comprehension comes through again. I said I could not
express it AS WELL as Luke Tague did so it made more sense to me to just
let him speak for himself. As someone who prefers to paraphrase the words
of others and thus change the meaning of what they said, as you have done
several times just in this post, I guess that doesn't make sense to
you.
Chris
bigdog
2018-05-08 01:40:50 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.

Loading Image...

This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
mainframetech
2018-05-08 23:24:27 UTC
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming for a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. What how would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH, and go through the head to come out
some hole. Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one. The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-09 23:13:15 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming for a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. What how would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
mainframetech
2018-05-17 14:01:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.

a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo


Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact. Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there were rally full weight of a bullet there. Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that. You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague. Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction. It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague. It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.



So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-18 00:55:13 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Post by mainframetech
Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
Post by mainframetech
Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Post by mainframetech
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there were rally full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Post by mainframetech
Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
Post by mainframetech
So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-19 01:21:24 UTC
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Post by mainframetech
Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
Post by mainframetech
Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Post by mainframetech
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there were rally full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Ive posted the documents before.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
I have given you the exact numbers many times.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
Not directly. It hit the curb near Tague and a chip of concrete from the
curb hit Tague.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
Post by mainframetech
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
Post by mainframetech
So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
Show us YOUR diagram.
mainframetech
2018-05-19 01:35:07 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions. For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop, or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses. And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague. By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH. That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.

Are you able to picture it yet?
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Oh my! You're making it up as you go along! The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head. Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet, and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is and exit for the BOH
shot. Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
will STILL se that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
Post by bigdog
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
damage to the mirror:

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times. A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.

This was all put out for you, including articles.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path, since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.


Chris
bigdog
2018-05-20 00:57:08 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
Post by mainframetech
For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Post by mainframetech
or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
Post by mainframetech
And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.

Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Post by mainframetech
By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
Post by mainframetech
That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
Post by mainframetech
With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
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It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
Post by mainframetech
Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
Post by mainframetech
and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is and exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.

? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
Post by mainframetech
will STILL se that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
I don't assume it. I recognize it as a possibility. Another possibility is
it was there all along. The case against Oswald doesn't depend on
establishing the cause of that damage. It is a peripheral issue.
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times.
As I recall most of your witnesses didn't say the hole went through the
windshield and on of your witnesses didn't see the car because the limo
wasn't sent back to the factory when he claims it was.
Post by mainframetech
A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.
I love how you always put your spin on what these witnesses said rather
than quoting them.
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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path,
Of course I did and once again you are pretending I didn't. The path went
over the windshied an then curved down to Tague's postion.
Post by mainframetech
since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.
The defect was partially in the top of the head. Any bullet exiting tha
portion of the wound would be able to pass over the windshield and curve
downward toward Tague.
mainframetech
2018-05-21 02:43:02 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
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Post by mainframetech
For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
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Post by mainframetech
And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise? I's love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found, and the hole in the throat and the big hole. No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"? There was the big one and the bone flap, and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away form Tague.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
"Pass over the windshield"? What planet do you come from? The 2
wounds on the head of JFK were described as being on the right side.
That means the fragments had to go to the right, and not to Tague. This
is repetition over and over.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
STOP giving out false information! There are NO OTHER wounds
described in the AR in the head. The large one mostly at the BOH and the
right side, and the bone flap to the right over the ear. There are NO
OTHER flaps described. Spit out the info on these wild bone flaps you
have conjured up please! Cites and links.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
Mainly because they started out knowing little and progressed to
knowing nothing. I'm talking simple physics. A fragment can only go
through a hole in the head, and the AR describes both of them as being on
the right side.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
Nor is your failure to understand.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
Post by mainframetech
Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
Post by mainframetech
and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is an exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.
Please show the description of all these bone flaps from the AR. I
missed them when I read it. Cites and links.
Post by bigdog
? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
Post by mainframetech
will STILL see that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
And what of the bullet that smacked hard into the chrome over the
windshield? Or for that matter, the bullet hole that came through the
windshield from the front seen by 6 witnesses?
Post by bigdog
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
I don't assume it. I recognize it as a possibility. Another possibility is
it was there all along. The case against Oswald doesn't depend on
establishing the cause of that damage. It is a peripheral issue.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times.
As I recall most of your witnesses didn't say the hole went through the
windshield and on of your witnesses didn't see the car because the limo
wasn't sent back to the factory when he claims it was.
You have yet to prove that, whereas I've proved that it did go to
Michigan for repairs. You need evidence for your wild statements.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.
I love how you always put your spin on what these witnesses said rather
than quoting them.
I've shown you the articles proving that. And if you would like the
statement of the doctor from Parkland, here it is:


Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
Post by bigdog
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Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path,
Of course I did and once again you are pretending I didn't. The path went
over the windshied an then curved down to Tague's postion.
WRONG! JFK's head was much lower than the windshield of the limo, and
the 2 wounds in his head (as described in the AR) were pointing to the
right, so the fragment would have gone to the right and up for a good
while if it went "OVER" the windshield! Fragments going upward somewhat
will not simply come down from gravity to look like a ski jump had been
used. We're talking about a fragment that would have to strike the curb
with enough force to break off a chunk to hit him in the cheek.

Further silliness is seen when you consider that the large wound on the
back and the side of the head was enlarged by Humes and Boswell when the
body was received at Bethesda morgue. Before that there was only a large
wound at the BOH.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.
The defect was partially in the top of the head. Any bullet exiting tha
portion of the wound would be able to pass over the windshield and curve
downward toward Tague.
Oh Lordee! You're getting wilder and wilder in your desperation to
some how save this mess you've got. Now the wound in the head which was
pointing mostly upward had a fragment coming out of it straight up in the
air, and then looping and curving down to the ground where Tague was and
striking the curb hard enough to knock off a chip of concrete and hit his
cheek. Do you have any idea how nutty you sound with that silly business?

Chris

Anthony Marsh
2018-05-20 00:57:46 UTC
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Post by bigdog
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Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Post by mainframetech
Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
Post by mainframetech
Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Post by mainframetech
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there were rally full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Why can't you just read the original documents? Or are you afraid to
visit my Web site?

Loading Image...
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
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Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
Post by mainframetech
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
Post by mainframetech
So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
Post by bigdog
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Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-10 18:54:57 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming for a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. What how would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH, and go through the head to come out
some hole. Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one. The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Chris
You also would have to thread a needle to go between the parade bar the
chrome topping.

That's what Ken Rahn and Larry Sturdivan are working on.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-08 23:55:51 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
Do you realize that the dent of the chrome topping was just slightly to
the right of midline while the crack of the windshield was to the left of
the midline? The indentation on the back of the rearview mirror was just
about at the midline. I don't see how ONE fragment can hit all those
places. Maybe a fragment hit the inside of the windshield and ricocheted
back into the rearview mirror. But you need at least 2 sizeable fragments
to cause all that damage. And we have 2 large fragments found in the limo.
But they only add up to about 40% of a Carcano bullet. Where did the rest
go? One fragment was only the copper jacket from the base of the bullet.
The lead core had been squeezed out by impact. Where do you think the lead
core went? Some people think it might have gone on to hit the curb near
Tague.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-08 17:25:38 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
First time here? He's a WC defender so he doesn't have to answer
questions. It's the 5th of May so he can plead the 5th.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ASSuMING that the fragments found came from the head shot. No proof though.
Post by mainframetech
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
Could be.
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
Or the bullet had already broken up and one of the pieces hit the chrome
topping.
Post by mainframetech
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
Or the fact that JFK's head was facing to the left would send a fragment
exiting the front of the head at the midline slightly to the left of the
limo. Don't forget that Elm Street was an S curve.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
There was a huge hole, not just the one small bullet hole. The head
exploded.
Post by mainframetech
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
What are you suggesting, two head wounds?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
Diagram it for us.
The HSCA diagram shows an intact bullet exiting the head on a downward
trajectory.


Loading Image...
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Your poor reading comprehension comes through again. I said I could not
express it AS WELL as Luke Tague did so it made more sense to me to just
let him speak for himself. As someone who prefers to paraphrase the words
of others and thus change the meaning of what they said, as you have done
several times just in this post, I guess that doesn't make sense to
you.
Chris
OHLeeRedux
2018-05-08 23:49:55 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
First time here? He's a WC defender so he doesn't have to answer
questions. It's the 5th of May so he can plead the 5th.
Better than telling an outright lie, Anthony "Alternative Facts" Marsh.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ASSuMING that the fragments found came from the head shot. No proof though.
Post by mainframetech
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
Could be.
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
Or the bullet had already broken up and one of the pieces hit the chrome
topping.
Post by mainframetech
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
Or the fact that JFK's head was facing to the left would send a fragment
exiting the front of the head at the midline slightly to the left of the
limo. Don't forget that Elm Street was an S curve.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
There was a huge hole, not just the one small bullet hole. The head
exploded.
Post by mainframetech
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
What are you suggesting, two head wounds?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
Diagram it for us.
The HSCA diagram shows an intact bullet exiting the head on a downward
trajectory.
http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/Photo_hsca_ex_65.jpg
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Your poor reading comprehension comes through again. I said I could not
express it AS WELL as Luke Tague did so it made more sense to me to just
let him speak for himself. As someone who prefers to paraphrase the words
of others and thus change the meaning of what they said, as you have done
several times just in this post, I guess that doesn't make sense to
you.
Chris
BOZ
2018-05-06 00:35:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"? Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Chris
CHRIS, YOU HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
mainframetech
2018-05-06 23:27:50 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by BOZ
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"? Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Chris
CHRIS, YOU HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Sure I do...:)

Chris
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-06 19:02:40 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"? Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
Ken Rahn and Larry Sturdivan are working on that theory.
Post by mainframetech
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Chris
PSY DOC
2018-05-05 01:38:16 UTC
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Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.

Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)

When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-06 00:47:59 UTC
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Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
I doubt that it was from the miss. No copper in the mark on the curb. It
appears to be unhardened lead from the core of a Carcano bullet.
bigdog
2018-05-06 00:57:45 UTC
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Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
It's always a red flag for me when someone either paraphrases what a
witness says or quotes the witness out of context. This is the pertinent
part of his testimony regarding which shot hit him:

Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate 12
to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is that
right?
Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission
Exhibit No. 354.
Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any
connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second
or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I
looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to
talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy
sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is
when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit
in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot
afterwards.

So after twice saying he thought it was the second or third shot, he
stated he believed it was the second but if we look at everything he said,
he wasn't sure about that. IOW he was guessing. He even characterized his
belief as a guess. "I would guess it was either the second or third.". He
did not say he definitely thought he was hit by the second shot.
mainframetech
2018-05-06 23:27:41 UTC
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Post by bigdog
Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
It's always a red flag for me when someone either paraphrases what a
witness says or quotes the witness out of context. This is the pertinent
Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate 12
to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is that
right?
Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission
Exhibit No. 354.
Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any
connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second
or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I
looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to
talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy
sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is
when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit
in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot
afterwards.
So after twice saying he thought it was the second or third shot, he
stated he believed it was the second but if we look at everything he said,
he wasn't sure about that. IOW he was guessing. He even characterized his
belief as a guess. "I would guess it was either the second or third.". He
did not say he definitely thought he was hit by the second shot.
Careful, you might find yourself changing his words and meanings.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-08 01:39:26 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
It's always a red flag for me when someone either paraphrases what a
witness says or quotes the witness out of context. This is the pertinent
Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate 12
to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is that
right?
Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission
Exhibit No. 354.
Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any
connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second
or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I
looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to
talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy
sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is
when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit
in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot
afterwards.
So after twice saying he thought it was the second or third shot, he
stated he believed it was the second but if we look at everything he said,
he wasn't sure about that. IOW he was guessing. He even characterized his
belief as a guess. "I would guess it was either the second or third.". He
did not say he definitely thought he was hit by the second shot.
Careful, you might find yourself changing his words and meanings.
That's why I quote people directly and in context rather than putting my
spin on what they said. I allow the witnesses to speak for themselves
rather than twisting their words to fit my beliefs. You should try it some
time. On second thought, that wouldn't work very well for you.
mainframetech
2018-05-08 23:25:00 UTC
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
It's always a red flag for me when someone either paraphrases what a
witness says or quotes the witness out of context. This is the pertinent
Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate 12
to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is that
right?
Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission
Exhibit No. 354.
Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any
connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second
or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I
looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to
talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy
sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is
when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit
in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot
afterwards.
So after twice saying he thought it was the second or third shot, he
stated he believed it was the second but if we look at everything he said,
he wasn't sure about that. IOW he was guessing. He even characterized his
belief as a guess. "I would guess it was either the second or third.". He
did not say he definitely thought he was hit by the second shot.
Careful, you might find yourself changing his words and meanings.
That's why I quote people directly and in context rather than putting my
spin on what they said. I allow the witnesses to speak for themselves
rather than twisting their words to fit my beliefs. You should try it some
time. On second thought, that wouldn't work very well for you.
WRONG! You are perfectly aware that I have changed only 2 person's
testimony to the OBVIOUS statement they meant, and that the hundreds of
others I have made absolutely NO CHANGE to.

Chris
BOZ
2018-05-06 00:33:43 UTC
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Tague was about 531 feet from Oswald's rifle.
JFK was about 264 feet from Oswald's rifle at Z-313.
Ricocheted about267 feet.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-07 00:35:33 UTC
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Post by BOZ
Tague was about 531 feet from Oswald's rifle.
JFK was about 264 feet from Oswald's rifle at Z-313.
Ricocheted about267 feet.
You seem to be assuming it came from the head shot at Z-313. Have you
talked to Ken Rahn or Larry Sturdivan yet? Don't be afraid, they're both
WC defenders.
BOZ
2018-05-06 00:34:48 UTC
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Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
I disagree with Holland. I don't think Oswald's first shot struck the
traffic arm.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-07 00:35:02 UTC
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Post by BOZ
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
I disagree with Holland. I don't think Oswald's first shot struck the
traffic arm.
Exactly, but I think seeing it in the scope caused the shooter to miss.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-06 00:37:09 UTC
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Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
zi liked Max's theory, but he had no proof.
Post by bigdog
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Maybe, but when? From which shot?
People keep saying that Tague said it was the first shot or the second
shot or the third shot. That really narrows it down. Not.
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
You ASSUME it was CE 399. You can't prove that it was. But we are pretty
sure it was not a direct hit by an intact Oswald bullet, because there was
no copper from the jacket in the mark on the curb.

Ken Rahn and Larry Sturdivan are working on a theory that it was a lead
fragment from the head shot, but their trajectory does not line up very
well.
Post by bigdog
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Haag is out of his depth.
Why didn't you post a link to his articles?
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