Discussion:
Haag on Tague
(too old to reply)
bigdog
2018-05-04 00:23:16 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html

This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.

Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
mainframetech
2018-05-04 23:32:47 UTC
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Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"? Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-06 00:30:39 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet. The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.

Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Your poor reading comprehension comes through again. I said I could not
express it AS WELL as Luke Tague did so it made more sense to me to just
let him speak for himself. As someone who prefers to paraphrase the words
of others and thus change the meaning of what they said, as you have done
several times just in this post, I guess that doesn't make sense to
you.
mainframetech
2018-05-06 23:29:01 UTC
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."

Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Your poor reading comprehension comes through again. I said I could not
express it AS WELL as Luke Tague did so it made more sense to me to just
let him speak for himself. As someone who prefers to paraphrase the words
of others and thus change the meaning of what they said, as you have done
several times just in this post, I guess that doesn't make sense to
you.
Chris
bigdog
2018-05-08 01:40:50 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.

Loading Image...

This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
mainframetech
2018-05-08 23:24:27 UTC
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Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming for a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. What how would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH, and go through the head to come out
some hole. Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one. The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-09 23:13:15 UTC
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Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming for a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. What how would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
mainframetech
2018-05-17 14:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.

a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo


Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact. Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there were rally full weight of a bullet there. Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that. You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague. Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction. It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague. It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.



So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-18 00:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Post by mainframetech
Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
Post by mainframetech
Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Post by mainframetech
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there were rally full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Post by mainframetech
Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
Post by mainframetech
So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-19 01:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Post by mainframetech
Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
Post by mainframetech
Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Post by mainframetech
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there were rally full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Ive posted the documents before.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
I have given you the exact numbers many times.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
Not directly. It hit the curb near Tague and a chip of concrete from the
curb hit Tague.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
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Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
Post by mainframetech
So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
Show us YOUR diagram.
mainframetech
2018-05-19 01:35:07 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
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Post by mainframetech
Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions. For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop, or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses. And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague. By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH. That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.

Are you able to picture it yet?
Post by bigdog
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Oh my! You're making it up as you go along! The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head. Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet, and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is and exit for the BOH
shot. Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
will STILL se that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
damage to the mirror:

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
Post by bigdog
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times. A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.

This was all put out for you, including articles.
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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path, since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.


Chris
bigdog
2018-05-20 00:57:08 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
Post by mainframetech
For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Post by mainframetech
or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.

Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
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You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Post by mainframetech
By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
Post by mainframetech
That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
Post by mainframetech
With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
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It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
Post by mainframetech
Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
Post by mainframetech
and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is and exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.

? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
Post by mainframetech
will STILL se that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
I don't assume it. I recognize it as a possibility. Another possibility is
it was there all along. The case against Oswald doesn't depend on
establishing the cause of that damage. It is a peripheral issue.
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times.
As I recall most of your witnesses didn't say the hole went through the
windshield and on of your witnesses didn't see the car because the limo
wasn't sent back to the factory when he claims it was.
Post by mainframetech
A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.
I love how you always put your spin on what these witnesses said rather
than quoting them.
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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path,
Of course I did and once again you are pretending I didn't. The path went
over the windshied an then curved down to Tague's postion.
Post by mainframetech
since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.
The defect was partially in the top of the head. Any bullet exiting tha
portion of the wound would be able to pass over the windshield and curve
downward toward Tague.
mainframetech
2018-05-21 02:43:02 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
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Post by mainframetech
For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
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Post by mainframetech
or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
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Post by mainframetech
And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise? I's love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found, and the hole in the throat and the big hole. No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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Post by mainframetech
By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"? There was the big one and the bone flap, and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
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That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away form Tague.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
"Pass over the windshield"? What planet do you come from? The 2
wounds on the head of JFK were described as being on the right side.
That means the fragments had to go to the right, and not to Tague. This
is repetition over and over.
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Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
STOP giving out false information! There are NO OTHER wounds
described in the AR in the head. The large one mostly at the BOH and the
right side, and the bone flap to the right over the ear. There are NO
OTHER flaps described. Spit out the info on these wild bone flaps you
have conjured up please! Cites and links.
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With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
Mainly because they started out knowing little and progressed to
knowing nothing. I'm talking simple physics. A fragment can only go
through a hole in the head, and the AR describes both of them as being on
the right side.
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It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
Nor is your failure to understand.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
Post by mainframetech
Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
Post by mainframetech
and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is an exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.
Please show the description of all these bone flaps from the AR. I
missed them when I read it. Cites and links.
Post by bigdog
? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
Post by mainframetech
will STILL see that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
And what of the bullet that smacked hard into the chrome over the
windshield? Or for that matter, the bullet hole that came through the
windshield from the front seen by 6 witnesses?
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
I don't assume it. I recognize it as a possibility. Another possibility is
it was there all along. The case against Oswald doesn't depend on
establishing the cause of that damage. It is a peripheral issue.
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times.
As I recall most of your witnesses didn't say the hole went through the
windshield and on of your witnesses didn't see the car because the limo
wasn't sent back to the factory when he claims it was.
You have yet to prove that, whereas I've proved that it did go to
Michigan for repairs. You need evidence for your wild statements.
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Post by mainframetech
A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.
I love how you always put your spin on what these witnesses said rather
than quoting them.
I've shown you the articles proving that. And if you would like the
statement of the doctor from Parkland, here it is:


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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path,
Of course I did and once again you are pretending I didn't. The path went
over the windshied an then curved down to Tague's postion.
WRONG! JFK's head was much lower than the windshield of the limo, and
the 2 wounds in his head (as described in the AR) were pointing to the
right, so the fragment would have gone to the right and up for a good
while if it went "OVER" the windshield! Fragments going upward somewhat
will not simply come down from gravity to look like a ski jump had been
used. We're talking about a fragment that would have to strike the curb
with enough force to break off a chunk to hit him in the cheek.

Further silliness is seen when you consider that the large wound on the
back and the side of the head was enlarged by Humes and Boswell when the
body was received at Bethesda morgue. Before that there was only a large
wound at the BOH.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.
The defect was partially in the top of the head. Any bullet exiting tha
portion of the wound would be able to pass over the windshield and curve
downward toward Tague.
Oh Lordee! You're getting wilder and wilder in your desperation to
some how save this mess you've got. Now the wound in the head which was
pointing mostly upward had a fragment coming out of it straight up in the
air, and then looping and curving down to the ground where Tague was and
striking the curb hard enough to knock off a chip of concrete and hit his
cheek. Do you have any idea how nutty you sound with that silly business?

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-22 05:23:33 UTC
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Raw Message
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
Seriously? That's how you interpret what he said? He was indicating that
the missing material is what had been dispersed outside the confines of
the limo. Did you really need that explained to you?
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
We aren't talking about the distance. We are talking about the direction.
At the time of the headshot, Tague, JFK, and Oswald were in a single line.
Any fragments dispersed from the defect in the top right side of JFK's
head and continuing in the same general direction would have been heading
toward Tague.
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes I am. Flatfoots aren't crime scene investigators. Their job at a crime
scene is to secure the scene so the investigators with the know how can
gather the evidence.
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
Other witnesses including the SS agents said it was a defect that didn't
pass through to the outer surface of the windshield which was still
smooth. The SS agents had the opportunity to closely examine the
windshield. None of your 6 witnesses did and three of them didn't even say
the hole went all the way through. Check their actual words if you don't
believe me.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
Don't need to in order to point out your lack of evidence.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
You have to understand the difference between eyewitnesses who are
notoriously unreliable and expert witnesses who are generally very
reliable. Haag falls into the latter camp.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
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You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise?
It describes the size of the defect which is much larger than that single
bone flap.
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I's love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found, and the hole in the throat and the big hole.
Do you really need it explained to you that the bone flaps were the pieces
of skull from the defect which remained attached to the scalp.
Post by mainframetech
No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Then there are the things you imagine. So far the only members of this
forum who claim to see a bullet hole where you do are yourself, Marsh, and
Amy. That hardly makes me the outlier.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Nonesense. Any fragment escaping from the top right side of JFK's head
could continue in the same general direction as the whole bullet which
entered his skull.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"?
The same one Jenkins saw which he placed in the temporal bone. The same
one Robinson saw which he placed in the temple. They same one numerous
witnesses described and placed much closer to where Humes placed it in his
report than where you claim to see it.
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There was the big one and the bone flap,
So are you saying Jenkins, Robinson, and all those other witnesses were
lying when they described small hole on the right side of JFK's head.
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and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
The AR cited a small entry wound on the BOH, an exit wound on the right
side of the head, an entrance wound on the upper back and it concluded
there had been an exit wound where the tracheostomy incision had been
made. That's four missile wounds by my count.
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That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away form Tague.
Nonsense. The defect was in the TOP right and JFK's head was tilted to his
left so any fragments dispersing from that defect would have had a path to
Tague.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
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and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
"Pass over the windshield"? What planet do you come from?
Apparently not the one you reside on. There is no Conspiracyland where I
live.
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The 2
wounds on the head of JFK were described as being on the right side.
TOP RIGHT SIDE which is the part you always forget. Chiefly parietal
according to the AR. The parietal bone extends across the top of the head
to the upper part of each side. The blowout was essentially above his
right ear. That would be as the AR said, chiefly parietal but also
extending into the temporal and occipital regions. This is very basic
anatomy.
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That means the fragments had to go to the right, and not to Tague. This
is repetition over and over.
No it doesn't. I see your understanding of geometry is as weak as your
understanding of anatomy.
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Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
STOP giving out false information!
No really. That's where the AR placed it. Other witnesses put it very
close to that spot as well.
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There are NO OTHER wounds
described in the AR in the head.
It described an entrance wound in the back of he head. It described an
exit wound in the parietal bone. It described a large defect in between.
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The large one mostly at the BOH and the
right side, and the bone flap to the right over the ear. There are NO
OTHER flaps described.
That's because they described the defect. They had no idea you wouldn't be
able to figure out the bone from that defect either detached, as the
Harper fragment did or remained attacked to the scalp as the other
fragments did. There were multiple bone flaps formed when the blowout
occurred.
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Spit out the info on these wild bone flaps you
have conjured up please! Cites and links.
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With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
Mainly because they started out knowing little and progressed to
knowing nothing.
So once again you pretend to know more than real experts.
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I'm talking simple physics. A fragment can only go
through a hole in the head, and the AR describes both of them as being on
the right side.
Go back and check were the parietal bone is.
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It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
Nor is your failure to understand.
I've never understood you. That's a good thing.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
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Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
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and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is an exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.
Please show the description of all these bone flaps from the AR. I
missed them when I read it. Cites and links.
They didn't describe the flaps. The described the defect left when those
flaps were blown open.
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? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
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will STILL see that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
And what of the bullet that smacked hard into the chrome over the
windshield?
I have no explanation of your imaginary shots.
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Or for that matter, the bullet hole that came through the
windshield from the front seen by 6 witnesses?
As I was saying...
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
I don't assume it. I recognize it as a possibility. Another possibility is
it was there all along. The case against Oswald doesn't depend on
establishing the cause of that damage. It is a peripheral issue.
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times.
As I recall most of your witnesses didn't say the hole went through the
windshield and on of your witnesses didn't see the car because the limo
wasn't sent back to the factory when he claims it was.
You have yet to prove that, whereas I've proved that it did go to
Michigan for repairs. You need evidence for your wild statements.
You cited a "witness" who many years later claimed to have seen that. Does
that constitute proof in Conspiracyland?
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A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.
I love how you always put your spin on what these witnesses said rather
than quoting them.
I've shown you the articles proving that. And if you would like the
http://youtu.be/vClwuJ0yuWM
And once again you present a witness giving an account many years later as
proof. What about the witnesses who said the missile hadn't passed through
to the front surface of the glass. Don't they count as proof?
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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path,
Of course I did and once again you are pretending I didn't. The path went
over the windshied an then curved down to Tague's postion.
WRONG! JFK's head was much lower than the windshield of the limo, and
the 2 wounds in his head (as described in the AR) were pointing to the
right, so the fragment would have gone to the right and up for a good
while if it went "OVER" the windshield! Fragments going upward somewhat
will not simply come down from gravity to look like a ski jump had been
used. We're talking about a fragment that would have to strike the curb
with enough force to break off a chunk to hit him in the cheek.
I'm afraid I don't know how to explain simple geometry to you. I can't
help you.
Post by mainframetech
Further silliness is seen when you consider that the large wound on the
back and the side of the head was enlarged by Humes and Boswell when the
body was received at Bethesda morgue. Before that there was only a large
wound at the BOH.
Are you trying to bore us to death with this nonsense. You just might
succeed.
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since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.
The defect was partially in the top of the head. Any bullet exiting tha
portion of the wound would be able to pass over the windshield and curve
downward toward Tague.
Oh Lordee! You're getting wilder and wilder in your desperation to
some how save this mess you've got. Now the wound in the head which was
pointing mostly upward had a fragment coming out of it straight up in the
air, and then looping and curving down to the ground where Tague was and
striking the curb hard enough to knock off a chip of concrete and hit his
cheek. Do you have any idea how nutty you sound with that silly business?
No, the fragment didn't go straight upward and I never said it did. It
went forward on a slightly upward trajectory. As it continued down range
toward Tague gravity would have caused it to begin arcing back down
because that is what gravity does to bullets and fragmented bullets. They
do not travel in a straight line because that is impossible.
mainframetech
2018-05-23 01:58:12 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
Seriously? That's how you interpret what he said? He was indicating that
the missing material is what had been dispersed outside the confines of
the limo. Did you really need that explained to you?
Do you really need me to tell you what I recently got through saying?
Particularly about the possibility of part of an MC bullet left stuck in
the Dent blasted into the chrome over the windshield? And how many
fragments were left to be removed by the repair work in Michigan? For
someone that says he considers all possibilities, you may have missed that
one.
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
We aren't talking about the distance. We are talking about the direction.
Right, that was my point, direction of the head wounds were to the
right of the limo. Away from Tague's direction.
Post by bigdog
At the time of the headshot, Tague, JFK, and Oswald were in a single line.
Any fragments dispersed from the defect in the top right side of JFK's
head and continuing in the same general direction would have been heading
toward Tague.
You seem to have no concept of the head and the wounds in it. It
doesn't matter that the 3 were in a line. What matters is the direction
the wounds in the head were pointing in. From the TSBD the direction is
DOWNWARDS. From the head the 2 wounds were to the right of the limo, and
thus away from Tague. Think it through.
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes I am. Flatfoots aren't crime scene investigators. Their job at a crime
scene is to secure the scene so the investigators with the know how can
gather the evidence.
So you believe that no cops have any experience with bullets and what
they do to the ground when striking it? An amazing guru indeed!
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
Other witnesses including the SS agents said it was a defect that didn't
pass through to the outer surface of the windshield which was still
smooth. The SS agents had the opportunity to closely examine the
windshield. None of your 6 witnesses did and three of them didn't even say
the hole went all the way through. Check their actual words if you don't
believe me.
WRONG! You know full well that there were 6 who said that there was a
clean through and through hole in the windshield glass. You've just
quoted no one but said that it was seen by witnesses as a defect, or a
simple ding. Actually many of those people were looking at the glass
AFTER the windshield had been replaced, and AFTER one of the agents dinged
it from the front all over again. We've gone over all this before.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
Don't need to in order to point out your lack of evidence.
WRONG! I've produced evidence about the direction of the 2 wounds in
the head of JFK and how no fragment could go from the head to Tague.
Similar evidence applies to some of the other bullet strikes in the plaza.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Post by mainframetech
Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
You have to understand the difference between eyewitnesses who are
notoriously unreliable and expert witnesses who are generally very
reliable. Haag falls into the latter camp.
Ah! 'expert' witnesses are "generally reliable"! I'll remember that
you said it. And here I thought 'experts' were also just human beings and
could make the same mistakes.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise?
It describes the size of the defect which is much larger than that single
bone flap.
It sure was, but it had no flaps noted by the 'experts' in the AR.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
I'd love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found), and the hole in the throat and the big hole.
Do you really need it explained to you that the bone flaps were the pieces
of skull from the defect which remained attached to the scalp.
No explanation could convince me that there was more than the one
single bone flap that was made by Humes and Boswell. You're making it up
to try and get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Then there are the things you imagine. So far the only members of this
forum who claim to see a bullet hole where you do are yourself, Marsh, and
Amy. That hardly makes me the outlier.
Ah, but you forget, those that some of those that I asked to look for
the bullet hole said they saw something there, not a bullet hole, but
something. You on the other hand saw nothing untoward at al. You are
indeed the outlier.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Nonesense. Any fragment escaping from the top right side of JFK's head
could continue in the same general direction as the whole bullet which
entered his skull.
LOL! ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! The bullet came in a downward direction,
60 degrees according to Humes. If it had continued on it would have gone
through the floor of the limo and hit the street underneath! But even if
it somehow leveled out horizontally, it would have to exit one of the
wounds on the right side of the head, and it would have gone to the right
of the limo. It just plain had to. Physics says so! There were NO
wounds on the left side of the head.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"?
The same one Jenkins saw which he placed in the temporal bone. The same
one Robinson saw which he placed in the temple. They same one numerous
witnesses described and placed much closer to where Humes placed it in his
report than where you claim to see it.
Post by mainframetech
There was the big one and the bone flap,
So are you saying Jenkins, Robinson, and all those other witnesses were
lying when they described small hole on the right side of JFK's head.
Nope, but that was the bullet hole which you have said doesn't
exist...:)

You're really tying yourself up worse and worse with trying to escape
the physics of the situation. You won't be able to though. And you won't
find one single expert to back you up on your fragment "dispersion" claim
either.

And try to understand I've been arguing with YOUR set of facts, not
mine. Mine say you are completely off you rocker and there was a bullet
hole in the right forehead/temple area that passed through the head and
blew out the BOH, leaving a large hole. Nothing came from the BOH forward
to pop out of some wound and arc up and over and come level after being
fired downward. That's all poppycock from you trying to imagine your way
out of the corner you painted yourself into.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
The AR cited a small entry wound on the BOH, an exit wound on the right
side of the head, an entrance wound on the upper back and it concluded
there had been an exit wound where the tracheostomy incision had been
made. That's four missile wounds by my count.
However, I was counting the missile wounds in the head only, since you
claimed that fragments from the head shot flew all over the plaza. I
proved that was impossible, but it seems to live in your head anyway.
The AR lists 2 missile wounds, on at the right side of the head and about
6 inches wide, and the other was the bone flap wound over the right ear.
As to the bullet hole in the BOH, an autopsy photo shows that no such
wound exists, and the quality of the photo was good.
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That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away from Tague.
Nonsense. The defect was in the TOP right and JFK's head was tilted to his
left so any fragments dispersing from that defect would have had a path to
Tague.
You picture a "path" to Tague from the top of the head of JFK?
You've lost your way again. The top right of the head was pointing to the
right more to the GK. Try and picture that bullet coming down at 60
degrees into the head from the BOH, and rising up to pop out of the top of
the head and fly to the right where the GK is. I don't think so.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
"Pass over the windshield"? What planet do you come from?
Apparently not the one you reside on. There is no Conspiracyland where I
live.
Post by mainframetech
The 2
wounds on the head of JFK were described as being on the right side.
TOP RIGHT SIDE which is the part you always forget. Chiefly parietal
according to the AR. The parietal bone extends across the top of the head
to the upper part of each side. The blowout was essentially above his
right ear. That would be as the AR said, chiefly parietal but also
extending into the temporal and occipital regions. This is very basic
anatomy.
Go check the 'leaked' autopsy photo that shows the bone flap. It does
not go up to the TOP at all:

Loading Image...
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That means the fragments had to go to the right, and not to Tague. This
is repetition over and over.
No it doesn't. I see your understanding of geometry is as weak as your
understanding of anatomy.
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Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
STOP giving out false information!
No really. That's where the AR placed it. Other witnesses put it very
close to that spot as well.
Post by mainframetech
There are NO OTHER wounds
described in the AR in the head.
It described an entrance wound in the back of he head. It described an
exit wound in the parietal bone. It described a large defect in between.
And did not describe ANY other wound in the head! Give up the stupid
bone flaps, there was only the one.
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Post by mainframetech
The large one mostly at the BOH and the
right side, and the bone flap to the right over the ear. There are NO
OTHER flaps described.
That's because they described the defect. They had no idea you wouldn't be
able to figure out the bone from that defect either detached, as the
Harper fragment did or remained attacked to the scalp as the other
fragments did. There were multiple bone flaps formed when the blowout
occurred.
Post by mainframetech
Spit out the info on these wild bone flaps you
have conjured up please! Cites and links.
I see no answer here, so that mans there are no cites and links, and
you were just imagining the bone flaps.
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With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
Mainly because they started out knowing little and progressed to
knowing nothing.
So once again you pretend to know more than real experts.
Post by mainframetech
I'm talking simple physics. A fragment can only go
through a hole in the head, and the AR describes both of them as being on
the right side.
Go back and check were the parietal bone is.
BULL! Go back and check what the AR says! It does NOT say anything
about wounds on top of the head, which wouldn't matter anyway because
that's just as impossible as your first claim.
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It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
Nor is your failure to understand.
I've never understood you. That's a good thing.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
Post by mainframetech
Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
Post by mainframetech
and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is an exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.
Please show the description of all these bone flaps from the AR. I
missed them when I read it. Cites and links.
They didn't describe the flaps. The described the defect left when those
flaps were blown open.
"Flaps blown open"...it's getting deeper and deeper in here! I'm
getting my boots!



Now you're admitting that the flaps you need so badly aren't described
in your AR. The scalp around the large 'defect' was secured to the bone
sections of the skull. There were cracks in the skull, but all the
sections were in their proper place held there by the scalp and any other
material that sticks to them. The scalp was completely a single piece
with the addition of the cut around the crown for the brain removal done
before the autopsy. None of the skull sections would have "blown open".
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? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
Post by mainframetech
will STILL see that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
And what of the bullet that smacked hard into the chrome over the
windshield?
I have no explanation of your imaginary shots.
"Imaginary shots"? Here's a photo of the shot:

Loading Image...
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Post by mainframetech
Or for that matter, the bullet hole that came through the
windshield from the front seen by 6 witnesses?
As I was saying...
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
I don't assume it. I recognize it as a possibility. Another possibility is
it was there all along. The case against Oswald doesn't depend on
establishing the cause of that damage. It is a peripheral issue.
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times.
As I recall most of your witnesses didn't say the hole went through the
windshield and on of your witnesses didn't see the car because the limo
wasn't sent back to the factory when he claims it was.
You have yet to prove that, whereas I've proved that it did go to
Michigan for repairs. You need evidence for your wild statements.
You cited a "witness" who many years later claimed to have seen that. Does
that constitute proof in Conspiracyland?
Part of the proof, but there was other proof too, which we have
discussed to death.
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A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.
I love how you always put your spin on what these witnesses said rather
than quoting them.
I've shown you the articles proving that. And if you would like the
http://youtu.be/vClwuJ0yuWM
And once again you present a witness giving an account many years later as
proof. What about the witnesses who said the missile hadn't passed through
to the front surface of the glass. Don't they count as proof?
They did not see the limo and the bullet hole BEFORE it went to
Michigan for repairs to the windshield.
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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path,
Of course I did and once again you are pretending I didn't. The path went
over the windshied an then curved down to Tague's postion.
WRONG! JFK's head was much lower than the windshield of the limo, and
the 2 wounds in his head (as described in the AR) were pointing to the
right, so the fragment would have gone to the right and up for a good
while if it went "OVER" the windshield! Fragments going upward somewhat
will not simply come down from gravity to look like a ski jump had been
used. We're talking about a fragment that would have to strike the curb
with enough force to break off a chunk to hit him in the cheek.
I'm afraid I don't know how to explain simple geometry to you. I can't
help you.
I believe it. You got yourself into this pickle and can't get out.
The stories are getting wilder and wilder.
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Post by mainframetech
Further silliness is seen when you consider that the large wound on the
back and the side of the head was enlarged by Humes and Boswell when the
body was received at Bethesda morgue. Before that there was only a large
wound at the BOH.
Are you trying to bore us to death with this nonsense. You just might
succeed.
Why did you avoid giving some evidence at that point?
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since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.
The defect was partially in the top of the head. Any bullet exiting tha
portion of the wound would be able to pass over the windshield and curve
downward toward Tague.
Oh Lordee! You're getting wilder and wilder in your desperation to
somehow save this mess you've got. Now the wound in the head which was
pointing mostly upward had a fragment coming out of it straight up in the
air, and then looping and curving down to the ground where Tague was and
striking the curb hard enough to knock off a chip of concrete and hit his
cheek. Do you have any idea how nutty you sound with that silly business?
No, the fragment didn't go straight upward and I never said it did. It
went forward on a slightly upward trajectory. As it continued down range
toward Tague gravity would have caused it to begin arcing back down
because that is what gravity does to bullets and fragmented bullets. They
do not travel in a straight line because that is impossible.
I'm picturing your description, and the fragment would have been
slowed down immensely based on your story, and it wouldn't have the power
to knock a chip off a concrete curb. And your hope that the wound was on
the top of the head is a lost hoe if you check the 'leaked' autopsy
photos' you'll see that the top of the head isn't all that open from a
wound.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-24 02:57:39 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
Seriously? That's how you interpret what he said? He was indicating that
the missing material is what had been dispersed outside the confines of
the limo. Did you really need that explained to you?
Do you really need me to tell you what I recently got through saying?
Particularly about the possibility of part of an MC bullet left stuck in
the Dent blasted into the chrome over the windshield? And how many
fragments were left to be removed by the repair work in Michigan? For
someone that says he considers all possibilities, you may have missed that
one.
Well if you are going to believe a cockamamie story about the limo being
shipped to Michigan because some yahoo 30 years later said that happened
you might as well go all in and assume more fragments were found. You have
no evidence for any of this. You simply assume this to be the case.
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
We aren't talking about the distance. We are talking about the direction.
Right, that was my point, direction of the head wounds were to the
right of the limo. Away from Tague's direction.
No, the defect was on the upper right of JFK's skull and his head was
tilted to the left which would have put the defect almost directly on top
of the head.
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Post by bigdog
At the time of the headshot, Tague, JFK, and Oswald were in a single line.
Any fragments dispersed from the defect in the top right side of JFK's
head and continuing in the same general direction would have been heading
toward Tague.
You seem to have no concept of the head and the wounds in it. It
doesn't matter that the 3 were in a line. What matters is the direction
the wounds in the head were pointing in. From the TSBD the direction is
DOWNWARDS. From the head the 2 wounds were to the right of the limo, and
thus away from Tague. Think it through.
Look at the blood and brain being dispersed in Z313. It is going forward
an upward. The fragments exiting would be doing the same which would send
then in Tague's direction.
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes I am. Flatfoots aren't crime scene investigators. Their job at a crime
scene is to secure the scene so the investigators with the know how can
gather the evidence.
So you believe that no cops have any experience with bullets and what
they do to the ground when striking it? An amazing guru indeed!
I believe very few uniformed cops have had experience digging bullets out
of the ground. That's not their job. It's up to experienced crime scene
investigators to gather the forensic evidence from a crime scene. If a cop
said the gouges were bullet holes, he was making a silly assumption. Cops
are known to do that as well.
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
Other witnesses including the SS agents said it was a defect that didn't
pass through to the outer surface of the windshield which was still
smooth. The SS agents had the opportunity to closely examine the
windshield. None of your 6 witnesses did and three of them didn't even say
the hole went all the way through. Check their actual words if you don't
believe me.
WRONG! You know full well that there were 6 who said that there was a
clean through and through hole in the windshield glass.
Not based on the quotes you provided. For example St. Louis Post-Dispatch
reporter Richard Dudman, one of your six, state, “A few of us
noted the hole in the windshield when the limousine was standing at the
emergency entrance after the President had been carried inside. I could
not approach close enough to see which side was the cup-shaped spot which
indicates a bullet had pierced the glass from the opposite side.”.
He said he couldn't get close enough to see which side the glass was
struck from.

SS agent Charles Taylor stated “In addition, of particular note
was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what
appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.”.

DPD cop H.R. Freeman said, “[I was] right beside it. I could of
[sic] touched it…it was a bullet hole. You could tell what it
was.”.

All three of these men saw the bullet hole but none said it had passed
through the windshield yet you count them among your 6 witnesses. That's
why I said only 3 of the 6 said the bullet hole went completely
through.
Post by mainframetech
You've just
quoted no one but said that it was seen by witnesses as a defect, or a
simple ding. Actually many of those people were looking at the glass
AFTER the windshield had been replaced, and AFTER one of the agents dinged
it from the front all over again. We've gone over all this before.
The three witnesses I just quoted saw the limo in Dallas.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
Don't need to in order to point out your lack of evidence.
WRONG! I've produced evidence about the direction of the 2 wounds in
the head of JFK and how no fragment could go from the head to Tague.
Similar evidence applies to some of the other bullet strikes in the plaza.
You cite rumors and present them as evidence. The real evidence indicates
a bullet passed through JFK's head from back to front.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
You have to understand the difference between eyewitnesses who are
notoriously unreliable and expert witnesses who are generally very
reliable. Haag falls into the latter camp.
Ah! 'expert' witnesses are "generally reliable"! I'll remember that
you said it. And here I thought 'experts' were also just human beings and
could make the same mistakes.
Expert witnesses are not infallible but that does not mean their opinions
are not probative. Up against the nonsense you present, it is no contest
which is more credible.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise?
It describes the size of the defect which is much larger than that single
bone flap.
It sure was, but it had no flaps noted by the 'experts' in the AR.
I guess they didn't realize you needed that explained to you.
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I'd love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found), and the hole in the throat and the big hole.
Do you really need it explained to you that the bone flaps were the pieces
of skull from the defect which remained attached to the scalp.
No explanation could convince me that there was more than the one
single bone flap that was made by Humes and Boswell. You're making it up
to try and get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.
What happened and what you are convinced of took diverging paths a long
time ago.
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No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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Post by mainframetech
By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Then there are the things you imagine. So far the only members of this
forum who claim to see a bullet hole where you do are yourself, Marsh, and
Amy. That hardly makes me the outlier.
Ah, but you forget, those that some of those that I asked to look for
the bullet hole said they saw something there, not a bullet hole, but
something. You on the other hand saw nothing untoward at al. You are
indeed the outlier.
So they said they didn't see a bullet hole and you still want to count
them as being on your side.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Nonesense. Any fragment escaping from the top right side of JFK's head
could continue in the same general direction as the whole bullet which
entered his skull.
LOL! ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! The bullet came in a downward direction,
60 degrees according to Humes. If it had continued on it would have gone
through the floor of the limo and hit the street underneath! But even if
it somehow leveled out horizontally, it would have to exit one of the
wounds on the right side of the head, and it would have gone to the right
of the limo. It just plain had to. Physics says so! There were NO
wounds on the left side of the head.
Why didn't the gore that was ejected from JFK's head go out to the right
side if that was the only direction it could escape. JBC was sitting in
front of JFK and he said he was showered with bits of blood and brain. If
blood and brain could move that direction from the blowout in the head, so
could the bullet fragments.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"?
The same one Jenkins saw which he placed in the temporal bone. The same
one Robinson saw which he placed in the temple. They same one numerous
witnesses described and placed much closer to where Humes placed it in his
report than where you claim to see it.
Post by mainframetech
There was the big one and the bone flap,
So are you saying Jenkins, Robinson, and all those other witnesses were
lying when they described small hole on the right side of JFK's head.
Nope, but that was the bullet hole which you have said doesn't
exist...:)
It doesn't exist where you think you saw it. It existed where the AR
placed it. In the parietal bone.
Post by mainframetech
You're really tying yourself up worse and worse with trying to escape
the physics of the situation. You won't be able to though. And you won't
find one single expert to back you up on your fragment "dispersion" claim
either.
The laws of physics, just like the evidence, are on my side. You seem to
want to invent new laws. You want to claim that the blood and brain tissue
ejected from JFK's head could go forward but the bullet fragments escaping
from the skull could not. What physical law tells you that?
Post by mainframetech
And try to understand I've been arguing with YOUR set of facts, not
mine. Mine say you are completely off you rocker and there was a bullet
hole in the right forehead/temple area that passed through the head and
blew out the BOH, leaving a large hole.
I'll have to take your word for what happens in Conspiracyland. In the
real world there was no bullet hole in JFK's forhead.
Post by mainframetech
Nothing came from the BOH forward
to pop out of some wound and arc up and over and come level after being
fired downward. That's all poppycock from you trying to imagine your way
out of the corner you painted yourself into.
Because you say so.
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and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
The AR cited a small entry wound on the BOH, an exit wound on the right
side of the head, an entrance wound on the upper back and it concluded
there had been an exit wound where the tracheostomy incision had been
made. That's four missile wounds by my count.
However, I was counting the missile wounds in the head only, since you
claimed that fragments from the head shot flew all over the plaza. I
proved that was impossible, but it seems to live in your head anyway.
You claimed it was impossible and your claims aren't proof.
Post by mainframetech
The AR lists 2 missile wounds, on at the right side of the head and about
6 inches wide, and the other was the bone flap wound over the right ear.
As to the bullet hole in the BOH, an autopsy photo shows that no such
wound exists, and the quality of the photo was good.
Teams of highly competent medical examiners looked at ALL the photos and
x-rays and concluded a there was a bullet hole in the back of JFK's head
and it was an entrance. Every last one of them.
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That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away from Tague.
Nonsense. The defect was in the TOP right and JFK's head was tilted to his
left so any fragments dispersing from that defect would have had a path to
Tague.
You picture a "path" to Tague from the top of the head of JFK?
You've lost your way again. The top right of the head was pointing to the
right more to the GK.
Explain why the blood and gore went forward and upward.
Post by mainframetech
Try and picture that bullet coming down at 60
degrees into the head from the BOH, and rising up to pop out of the top of
the head and fly to the right where the GK is. I don't think so.
I don't think so either. The bullet fragments exited in the same direction
as the gore, forward and upward.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
"Pass over the windshield"? What planet do you come from?
Apparently not the one you reside on. There is no Conspiracyland where I
live.
Post by mainframetech
The 2
wounds on the head of JFK were described as being on the right side.
TOP RIGHT SIDE which is the part you always forget. Chiefly parietal
according to the AR. The parietal bone extends across the top of the head
to the upper part of each side. The blowout was essentially above his
right ear. That would be as the AR said, chiefly parietal but also
extending into the temporal and occipital regions. This is very basic
anatomy.
Go check the 'leaked' autopsy photo that shows the bone flap. It does
https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f237/409304d1353206519-jfk-autopsy-pictures-assassination-jfk_autopsy4.jpg
That wasn't the only flap.
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That means the fragments had to go to the right, and not to Tague. This
is repetition over and over.
No it doesn't. I see your understanding of geometry is as weak as your
understanding of anatomy.
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Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
STOP giving out false information!
No really. That's where the AR placed it. Other witnesses put it very
close to that spot as well.
Post by mainframetech
There are NO OTHER wounds
described in the AR in the head.
It described an entrance wound in the back of he head. It described an
exit wound in the parietal bone. It described a large defect in between.
And did not describe ANY other wound in the head! Give up the stupid
bone flaps, there was only the one.
Because you say so.
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The large one mostly at the BOH and the
right side, and the bone flap to the right over the ear. There are NO
OTHER flaps described.
That's because they described the defect. They had no idea you wouldn't be
able to figure out the bone from that defect either detached, as the
Harper fragment did or remained attacked to the scalp as the other
fragments did. There were multiple bone flaps formed when the blowout
occurred.
Post by mainframetech
Spit out the info on these wild bone flaps you
have conjured up please! Cites and links.
I see no answer here, so that mans there are no cites and links, and
you were just imagining the bone flaps.
You just responded to your own statement again. Apparently even you saw
how silly it was.
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With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
Mainly because they started out knowing little and progressed to
knowing nothing.
So once again you pretend to know more than real experts.
Post by mainframetech
I'm talking simple physics. A fragment can only go
through a hole in the head, and the AR describes both of them as being on
the right side.
Go back and check were the parietal bone is.
BULL! Go back and check what the AR says! It does NOT say anything
about wounds on top of the head, which wouldn't matter anyway because
that's just as impossible as your first claim.
It said the defect was chiefly parietal. That parietal bone runs across
the top of the head.
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It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
Nor is your failure to understand.
I've never understood you. That's a good thing.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
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Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
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and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is an exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.
Please show the description of all these bone flaps from the AR. I
missed them when I read it. Cites and links.
They didn't describe the flaps. The described the defect left when those
flaps were blown open.
"Flaps blown open"...it's getting deeper and deeper in here! I'm
getting my boots!
Would you expect them to be blown inward?
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Now you're admitting that the flaps you need so badly aren't described
in your AR.
The are seen in the Z-film and in one of the leaked autopsy photos.
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The scalp around the large 'defect' was secured to the bone
sections of the skull. There were cracks in the skull, but all the
sections were in their proper place held there by the scalp and any other
material that sticks to them. The scalp was completely a single piece
with the addition of the cut around the crown for the brain removal done
before the autopsy. None of the skull sections would have "blown open".
Nonesense. The scalp over the defect area was blown open along with the
bone it was attached to.
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? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
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will STILL see that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
And what of the bullet that smacked hard into the chrome over the
windshield?
I have no explanation of your imaginary shots.
http://itwasjohnson.impiousdigest.com/dash.jpg
One of the points of damage caused by the exiting bullet fragments.
mainframetech
2018-05-25 01:44:47 UTC
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Raw Message
On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 10:57:40 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:

This a repetitive swamp post. I'm not interested in it anymore.

Chris
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
Seriously? That's how you interpret what he said? He was indicating that
the missing material is what had been dispersed outside the confines of
the limo. Did you really need that explained to you?
Do you really need me to tell you what I recently got through saying?
Particularly about the possibility of part of an MC bullet left stuck in
the Dent blasted into the chrome over the windshield? And how many
fragments were left to be removed by the repair work in Michigan? For
someone that says he considers all possibilities, you may have missed that
one.
Well if you are going to believe a cockamamie story about the limo being
shipped to Michigan because some yahoo 30 years later said that happened
you might as well go all in and assume more fragments were found. You have
no evidence for any of this. You simply assume this to be the case.
I've showed you the evidence, but like a typical LN, you have denied
it. You can't believe anything that shows up the WCR. Actually, the
facts of George Whitaker fit perfectly with other facts, like the limo
being unvisited the day it went off to Michigan for repairs and cleanup.
Unvisited because it wasn't there in the garage that day. And Whitaker's
statement that he saw the limo that day in Michigan and did repairs on the
windshield that had a bullet hole through it. He corroborates the Evalea
Glanges statement that the bullet came in from in front of the limo. And
since he worked in the glass shop of Ford, he should know better than most
people.
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
We aren't talking about the distance. We are talking about the direction.
Right, that was my point, direction of the head wounds were to the
right of the limo. Away from Tague's direction.
No, the defect was on the upper right of JFK's skull and his head was
tilted to the left which would have put the defect almost directly on top
of the head.
Oh Geez! You're losing it again! Go check the Z-film that you put so
much belief in. It will show you that JFK's face was pointing downward at
about Connally's feet at frame 312, immediately before the kill shot at
313. And the head was only slightly to the left. If any fragment made
its way out of the bullet hole in the forehead/temple area, it would have
hit the floorboards of the limo!


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At the time of the headshot, Tague, JFK, and Oswald were in a single line.
Any fragments dispersed from the defect in the top right side of JFK's
head and continuing in the same general direction would have been heading
toward Tague.
You seem to have no concept of the head and the wounds in it. It
doesn't matter that the 3 were in a line. What matters is the direction
the wounds in the head were pointing in. From the TSBD the direction is
DOWNWARDS. From the head the 2 wounds were to the right of the limo, and
thus away from Tague. The bullet hole on the forehead/temple was pointing down at Connally's feet. Think it through.
Look at the blood and brain being dispersed in Z313. It is going forward
an upward. The fragments exiting would be doing the same which would send
then in Tague's direction.
Not really. The puff of 'mist' (in only one frame) may have been the
reaction that occurs when a rifle hits something with a bullet. This was
spoken of by Vincent DiMaio, who said:

"The picture is radically different in the case of a high-velocity rifle
bullet. As the bullet enters the body, there is a “tail
splash,” or backward hurling of injured tissue. This material may
be ejected from the entrance."

From: "Gunshot Wounds" by Vincent DiMaio, Chapter 3, Wound Ballistics
Online at: https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/135302/Gunshot_wounds._Practical_aspects_of_firearms,_ballistics,_and_forensic_techniques.pdf
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes I am. Flatfoots aren't crime scene investigators. Their job at a crime
scene is to secure the scene so the investigators with the know how can
gather the evidence.
So you believe that no cops have any experience with bullets and what
they do to the ground when striking it? An amazing guru indeed!
I believe very few uniformed cops have had experience digging bullets out
of the ground. That's not their job. It's up to experienced crime scene
investigators to gather the forensic evidence from a crime scene. If a cop
said the gouges were bullet holes, he was making a silly assumption. Cops
are known to do that as well.
Ah, 'they lied'! 'they were mistaken'! Whenever they contradict
YOU.
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
Other witnesses including the SS agents said it was a defect that didn't
pass through to the outer surface of the windshield which was still
smooth. The SS agents had the opportunity to closely examine the
windshield. None of your 6 witnesses did and three of them didn't even say
the hole went all the way through. Check their actual words if you don't
believe me.
WRONG! You know full well that there were 6 who said that there was a
clean through and through hole in the windshield glass.
Not based on the quotes you provided. For example St. Louis Post-Dispatch
reporter Richard Dudman, one of your six, state, “A few of us
noted the hole in the windshield when the limousine was standing at the
emergency entrance after the President had been carried inside. I could
not approach close enough to see which side was the cup-shaped spot which
indicates a bullet had pierced the glass from the opposite side.”.
He said he couldn't get close enough to see which side the glass was
struck from.
But he DID say "hole".
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SS agent Charles Taylor stated “In addition, of particular note
was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what
appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.”.
"hole".
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DPD cop H.R. Freeman said, “[I was] right beside it. I could of
[sic] touched it…it was a bullet hole. You could tell what it
was.”.
All three of these men saw the bullet hole but none said it had passed
through the windshield yet you count them among your 6 witnesses. That's
why I said only 3 of the 6 said the bullet hole went completely
through.
That's why you're wrong as usual. They all said "hole" which is
pretty clear as to what it was. Not a 'ding' or a 'scratch', but a HOLE!
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You've just
quoted no one but said that it was seen by witnesses as a defect, or a
simple ding. Actually many of those people were looking at the glass
AFTER the windshield had been replaced, and AFTER one of the agents dinged
it from the front all over again. We've gone over all this before.
The three witnesses I just quoted saw the limo in Dallas.
If they saw it at the hospital, they said it was a "HOLE". Later after
it came back form Michigan, it was a 'ding' but from the outside of the
limo, which poor Kelerman didn't realize he was giving away when he spoke
of it in his sworn testimony.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
Don't need to in order to point out your lack of evidence.
WRONG! I've produced evidence about the direction of the 2 wounds in
the head of JFK and how no fragment could go from the head to Tague.
Similar evidence applies to some of the other bullet strikes in the plaza.
You cite rumors and present them as evidence. The real evidence indicates
a bullet passed through JFK's head from back to front.
Nope. Won't do. No rumors, but use of the Z-film which you hold in
high esteem. It tells us clearly what position the head of JFK was in
when the kill shot hit him.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
You have to understand the difference between eyewitnesses who are
notoriously unreliable and expert witnesses who are generally very
reliable. Haag falls into the latter camp.
Ah! 'expert' witnesses are "generally reliable"! I'll remember that
you said it. And here I thought 'experts' were also just human beings and
could make the same mistakes.
Expert witnesses are not infallible but that does not mean their opinions
are not probative. Up against the nonsense you present, it is no contest
which is more credible.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
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You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise?
It describes the size of the defect which is much larger than that single
bone flap.
It sure was, but it had no flaps noted by the 'experts' in the AR.
I guess they didn't realize you needed that explained to you.
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I'd love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found), and the hole in the throat and the big hole.
Do you really need it explained to you that the bone flaps were the pieces
of skull from the defect which remained attached to the scalp.
No explanation could convince me that there was more than the one
single bone flap that was made by Humes and Boswell. You're making it up
to try and get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.
What happened and what you are convinced of took diverging paths a long
time ago.
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No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Then there are the things you imagine. So far the only members of this
forum who claim to see a bullet hole where you do are yourself, Marsh, and
Amy. That hardly makes me the outlier.
Ah, but you forget, those that some of those that I asked to look for
the bullet hole said they saw something there, not a bullet hole, but
something. You on the other hand saw nothing untoward at all. You are
indeed the outlier.
So they said they didn't see a bullet hole and you still want to count
them as being on your side.
I don't count "sides". I point out facts. There are 3 levels of
sightings here, seeing a bullet hole, seeing something, but probably not a
bullet hole, and seeing nothing. Easy to place you on that scale.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Nonesense. Any fragment escaping from the top right side of JFK's head
could continue in the same general direction as the whole bullet which
entered his skull.
LOL! ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! The bullet came in a downward direction,
60 degrees according to Humes. If it had continued on it would have gone
through the floor of the limo and hit the street underneath! But even if
it somehow leveled out horizontally, it would have to exit one of the
wounds on the right side of the head, and it would have gone to the right
of the limo. It just plain had to. Physics says so! There were NO
wounds on the left side of the head.
Why didn't the gore that was ejected from JFK's head go out to the right
side if that was the only direction it could escape. JBC was sitting in
front of JFK and he said he was showered with bits of blood and brain. If
blood and brain could move that direction from the blowout in the head, so
could the bullet fragments.
Not really. The 'mist' of liquids that was in the Z-film, was probably
"tail splash" as per DiMaio. But nothing there about heavy bullets.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"?
The same one Jenkins saw which he placed in the temporal bone. The same
one Robinson saw which he placed in the temple. They same one numerous
witnesses described and placed much closer to where Humes placed it in his
report than where you claim to see it.
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There was the big one and the bone flap,
So are you saying Jenkins, Robinson, and all those other witnesses were
lying when they described small hole on the right side of JFK's head.
Nope, but that was the bullet hole which you have said doesn't
exist...:)
It doesn't exist where you think you saw it. It existed where the AR
placed it. In the parietal bone.
Oh? Then what happened to the bone flap? You're a very confused
person.
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You're really tying yourself up worse and worse with trying to escape
the physics of the situation. You won't be able to though. And you won't
find one single expert to back you up on your fragment "dispersion" claim
either.
The laws of physics, just like the evidence, are on my side. You seem to
want to invent new laws. You want to claim that the blood and brain tissue
ejected from JFK's head could go forward but the bullet fragments escaping
from the skull could not. What physical law tells you that?
Vincent DiMaio mentioned the 'tail splash', but didn't talk about
bullets being forced backward, nor have I ever heard of such a thing. If
you have, trot out the proof or give it up.
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And try to understand I've been arguing with YOUR set of facts, not
mine. Mine say you are completely off you rocker and there was a bullet
hole in the right forehead/temple area that passed through the head and
blew out the BOH, leaving a large hole.
I'll have to take your word for what happens in Conspiracyland. In the
real world there was no bullet hole in JFK's forhead.
LOL! Tell that to the over 39 eyewitnesses to the large hole in the
BOH of JFK.
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Nothing came from the BOH forward
to pop out of some wound and arc up and over and come level after being
fired downward. That's all poppycock from you trying to imagine your way
out of the corner you painted yourself into.
Because you say so.
Nope, because physics says so.
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and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
The AR cited a small entry wound on the BOH, an exit wound on the right
side of the head, an entrance wound on the upper back and it concluded
there had been an exit wound where the tracheostomy incision had been
made. That's four missile wounds by my count.
However, I was counting the missile wounds in the head only, since you
claimed that fragments from the head shot flew all over the plaza. I
proved that was impossible, but it seems to live in your head anyway.
You claimed it was impossible and your claims aren't proof.
Which is why I supplied proof based on the position of the head when
the kill shot struck. That's good evidence. That is, if you believe the
Z-film.
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The AR lists 2 missile wounds, on at the right side of the head and about
6 inches wide, and the other was the bone flap wound over the right ear.
As to the bullet hole in the BOH, an autopsy photo shows that no such
wound exists, and the quality of the photo was good.
Teams of highly competent medical examiners looked at ALL the photos and
x-rays and concluded a there was a bullet hole in the back of JFK's head
and it was an entrance. Every last one of them.
Yes, we'll have to look them over for delusions. The autopsy photo of
the BH does not show any hole. We've been over this.
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That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away from Tague.
Nonsense. The defect was in the TOP right and JFK's head was tilted to his
left so any fragments dispersing from that defect would have had a path to
Tague.
You picture a "path" to Tague from the top of the head of JFK?
You've lost your way again. The top right of the head was pointing to the
right more to the GK.
Explain why the blood and gore went forward and upward.
'Tail Splash', see above.
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Try and picture that bullet coming down at 60
degrees into the head from the BOH, and rising up to pop out of the top of
the head and fly to the right where the GK is. I don't think so.
I don't think so either. The bullet fragments exited in the same direction
as the gore, forward and upward.
You're thinking is really strange! While I've been playing along with
your rear bullet entry, you know very well that I know there was no such
thing, and a bullet hit the forehead/temple area from the front. Which
completely eliminates your claim.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
"Pass over the windshield"? What planet do you come from?
Apparently not the one you reside on. There is no Conspiracyland where I
live.
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The 2
wounds on the head of JFK were described as being on the right side.
TOP RIGHT SIDE which is the part you always forget. Chiefly parietal
according to the AR. The parietal bone extends across the top of the head
to the upper part of each side. The blowout was essentially above his
right ear. That would be as the AR said, chiefly parietal but also
extending into the temporal and occipital regions. This is very basic
anatomy.
Go check the 'leaked' autopsy photo that shows the bone flap. It does
https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f237/409304d1353206519-jfk-autopsy-pictures-assassination-jfk_autopsy4.jpg
That wasn't the only flap.
Tell it to the pathologists that signed off on the AR.
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That means the fragments had to go to the right, and not to Tague. This
is repetition over and over.
No it doesn't. I see your understanding of geometry is as weak as your
understanding of anatomy.
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Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
STOP giving out false information!
No really. That's where the AR placed it. Other witnesses put it very
close to that spot as well.
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There are NO OTHER wounds
described in the AR in the head.
It described an entrance wound in the back of he head. It described an
exit wound in the parietal bone. It described a large defect in between.
And did not describe ANY other wound in the head! Give up the stupid
bone flaps, there was only the one.
Because you say so.
Because the AR says so. I thought you were believer in the AR.
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The large one mostly at the BOH and the
right side, and the bone flap to the right over the ear. There are NO
OTHER flaps described.
That's because they described the defect. They had no idea you wouldn't be
able to figure out the bone from that defect either detached, as the
Harper fragment did or remained attacked to the scalp as the other
fragments did. There were multiple bone flaps formed when the blowout
occurred.
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Spit out the info on these wild bone flaps you
have conjured up please! Cites and links.
I see no answer here, so that means there are no cites and links, and
you were just imagining the bone flaps.
You just responded to your own statement again. Apparently even you saw
how silly it was.
You saw my answer. No comments from you proving there were no other
bone flaps.
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With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
Mainly because they started out knowing little and progressed to
knowing nothing.
So once again you pretend to know more than real experts.
Post by mainframetech
I'm talking simple physics. A fragment can only go
through a hole in the head, and the AR describes both of them as being on
the right side.
Go back and check were the parietal bone is.
BULL! Go back and check what the AR says! It does NOT say anything
about wounds on top of the head, which wouldn't matter anyway because
that's just as impossible as your first claim.
It said the defect was chiefly parietal. That parietal bone runs across
the top of the head.
Which does NOT mean that a wound has to.
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It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
Nor is your failure to understand.
I've never understood you. That's a good thing.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
Post by mainframetech
Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I'm done with this repetitive swamp post.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-25 20:43:14 UTC
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This a repetitive swamp post. I'm not interested in it anymore.
Chris
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
Seriously? That's how you interpret what he said? He was indicating that
the missing material is what had been dispersed outside the confines of
the limo. Did you really need that explained to you?
Do you really need me to tell you what I recently got through saying?
Particularly about the possibility of part of an MC bullet left stuck in
the Dent blasted into the chrome over the windshield? And how many
fragments were left to be removed by the repair work in Michigan? For
someone that says he considers all possibilities, you may have missed that
one.
Well if you are going to believe a cockamamie story about the limo being
shipped to Michigan because some yahoo 30 years later said that happened
you might as well go all in and assume more fragments were found. You have
no evidence for any of this. You simply assume this to be the case.
I've showed you the evidence, but like a typical LN, you have denied
it. You can't believe anything that shows up the WCR. Actually, the
facts of George Whitaker fit perfectly with other facts, like the limo
being unvisited the day it went off to Michigan for repairs and cleanup.
So the fact the limo was unvisited in your world means it was in Michigan.
We are supposed to believe that in one day limo was transported to
Michigan, the interior completely refurbished, and then the limo was
transported back to Washington. Truly amazing.
Post by mainframetech
Unvisited because it wasn't there in the garage that day. And Whitaker's
statement that he saw the limo that day in Michigan and did repairs on the
windshield that had a bullet hole through it. He corroborates the Evalea
Glanges statement that the bullet came in from in front of the limo. And
since he worked in the glass shop of Ford, he should know better than most
people.
Nobody corroborates Whitaker nor is there any documentation that
corroborates him. He is the sole source for the limo being in Michigan and
there is documentation and witnesses who refute his tall tale.
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
We aren't talking about the distance. We are talking about the direction.
Right, that was my point, direction of the head wounds were to the
right of the limo. Away from Tague's direction.
No, the defect was on the upper right of JFK's skull and his head was
tilted to the left which would have put the defect almost directly on top
of the head.
Oh Geez! You're losing it again! Go check the Z-film that you put so
much belief in. It will show you that JFK's face was pointing downward at
about Connally's feet at frame 312,
It was also tilted to his left.
Post by mainframetech
immediately before the kill shot at
313. And the head was only slightly to the left. If any fragment made
its way out of the bullet hole in the forehead/temple area, it would have
hit the floorboards of the limo!
Why did the gore go forward and upward?
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http://youtu.be/E0tZFkVhN00
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At the time of the headshot, Tague, JFK, and Oswald were in a single line.
Any fragments dispersed from the defect in the top right side of JFK's
head and continuing in the same general direction would have been heading
toward Tague.
You seem to have no concept of the head and the wounds in it. It
doesn't matter that the 3 were in a line. What matters is the direction
the wounds in the head were pointing in. From the TSBD the direction is
DOWNWARDS. From the head the 2 wounds were to the right of the limo, and
thus away from Tague. The bullet hole on the forehead/temple was pointing down at Connally's feet. Think it through.
Look at the blood and brain being dispersed in Z313. It is going forward
an upward. The fragments exiting would be doing the same which would send
then in Tague's direction.
Not really. The puff of 'mist' (in only one frame) may have been the
reaction that occurs when a rifle hits something with a bullet. This was
"The picture is radically different in the case of a high-velocity rifle
bullet. As the bullet enters the body, there is a “tail
splash,” or backward hurling of injured tissue. This material may
be ejected from the entrance."
So you are trying to tell us that all that gore we see being ejected from
JFK's head was tail splash. From what hole did that tail splash exit from?
Was it from your 5mm forehead/temple bullet hole or your large hole in the
BOH?
Post by mainframetech
From: "Gunshot Wounds" by Vincent DiMaio, Chapter 3, Wound Ballistics
Online at: https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/135302/Gunshot_wounds._Practical_aspects_of_firearms,_ballistics,_and_forensic_techniques.pdf
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes I am. Flatfoots aren't crime scene investigators. Their job at a crime
scene is to secure the scene so the investigators with the know how can
gather the evidence.
So you believe that no cops have any experience with bullets and what
they do to the ground when striking it? An amazing guru indeed!
I believe very few uniformed cops have had experience digging bullets out
of the ground. That's not their job. It's up to experienced crime scene
investigators to gather the forensic evidence from a crime scene. If a cop
said the gouges were bullet holes, he was making a silly assumption. Cops
are known to do that as well.
Ah, 'they lied'! 'they were mistaken'! Whenever they contradict
YOU.
Tell us why a flatfoot would have any experience identifying gouges in the
dirt as bullet holes.
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
Other witnesses including the SS agents said it was a defect that didn't
pass through to the outer surface of the windshield which was still
smooth. The SS agents had the opportunity to closely examine the
windshield. None of your 6 witnesses did and three of them didn't even say
the hole went all the way through. Check their actual words if you don't
believe me.
WRONG! You know full well that there were 6 who said that there was a
clean through and through hole in the windshield glass.
Not based on the quotes you provided. For example St. Louis Post-Dispatch
reporter Richard Dudman, one of your six, state, “A few of us
noted the hole in the windshield when the limousine was standing at the
emergency entrance after the President had been carried inside. I could
not approach close enough to see which side was the cup-shaped spot which
indicates a bullet had pierced the glass from the opposite side.”.
He said he couldn't get close enough to see which side the glass was
struck from.
But he DID say "hole".
Post by bigdog
SS agent Charles Taylor stated “In addition, of particular note
was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what
appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.”.
"hole".
Post by bigdog
DPD cop H.R. Freeman said, “[I was] right beside it. I could of
[sic] touched it…it was a bullet hole. You could tell what it
was.”.
All three of these men saw the bullet hole but none said it had passed
through the windshield yet you count them among your 6 witnesses. That's
why I said only 3 of the 6 said the bullet hole went completely
through.
That's why you're wrong as usual. They all said "hole" which is
pretty clear as to what it was. Not a 'ding' or a 'scratch', but a HOLE!
A hole doesn't have to go through an object to be a hole.
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You've just
quoted no one but said that it was seen by witnesses as a defect, or a
simple ding. Actually many of those people were looking at the glass
AFTER the windshield had been replaced, and AFTER one of the agents dinged
it from the front all over again. We've gone over all this before.
The three witnesses I just quoted saw the limo in Dallas.
If they saw it at the hospital, they said it was a "HOLE".
They didn't say the hole went through the windshield. Only that they saw a
hole.
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Later after
it came back form Michigan, it was a 'ding' but from the outside of the
limo, which poor Kelerman didn't realize he was giving away when he spoke
of it in his sworn testimony.
It is pure fantasy that the limo was sent to Michigan. You have ONE
uncorroborated person who claimed that.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
Don't need to in order to point out your lack of evidence.
WRONG! I've produced evidence about the direction of the 2 wounds in
the head of JFK and how no fragment could go from the head to Tague.
Similar evidence applies to some of the other bullet strikes in the plaza.
You cite rumors and present them as evidence. The real evidence indicates
a bullet passed through JFK's head from back to front.
Nope. Won't do. No rumors, but use of the Z-film which you hold in
high esteem. It tells us clearly what position the head of JFK was in
when the kill shot hit him.
Yes, it was in a position where the gore could exit forward and upward
which would allow the bullet fragments to exit in the same direction.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
You have to understand the difference between eyewitnesses who are
notoriously unreliable and expert witnesses who are generally very
reliable. Haag falls into the latter camp.
Ah! 'expert' witnesses are "generally reliable"! I'll remember that
you said it. And here I thought 'experts' were also just human beings and
could make the same mistakes.
Expert witnesses are not infallible but that does not mean their opinions
are not probative. Up against the nonsense you present, it is no contest
which is more credible.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise?
It describes the size of the defect which is much larger than that single
bone flap.
It sure was, but it had no flaps noted by the 'experts' in the AR.
I guess they didn't realize you needed that explained to you.
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I'd love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found), and the hole in the throat and the big hole.
Do you really need it explained to you that the bone flaps were the pieces
of skull from the defect which remained attached to the scalp.
No explanation could convince me that there was more than the one
single bone flap that was made by Humes and Boswell. You're making it up
to try and get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.
What happened and what you are convinced of took diverging paths a long
time ago.
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No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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Post by mainframetech
By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Then there are the things you imagine. So far the only members of this
forum who claim to see a bullet hole where you do are yourself, Marsh, and
Amy. That hardly makes me the outlier.
Ah, but you forget, those that some of those that I asked to look for
the bullet hole said they saw something there, not a bullet hole, but
something. You on the other hand saw nothing untoward at all. You are
indeed the outlier.
So they said they didn't see a bullet hole and you still want to count
them as being on your side.
I don't count "sides". I point out facts. There are 3 levels of
sightings here, seeing a bullet hole, seeing something, but probably not a
bullet hole, and seeing nothing. Easy to place you on that scale.
You are on the side of the scale with just yourself, Amy, and Marsh.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Nonesense. Any fragment escaping from the top right side of JFK's head
could continue in the same general direction as the whole bullet which
entered his skull.
LOL! ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! The bullet came in a downward direction,
60 degrees according to Humes. If it had continued on it would have gone
through the floor of the limo and hit the street underneath! But even if
it somehow leveled out horizontally, it would have to exit one of the
wounds on the right side of the head, and it would have gone to the right
of the limo. It just plain had to. Physics says so! There were NO
wounds on the left side of the head.
Why didn't the gore that was ejected from JFK's head go out to the right
side if that was the only direction it could escape. JBC was sitting in
front of JFK and he said he was showered with bits of blood and brain. If
blood and brain could move that direction from the blowout in the head, so
could the bullet fragments.
So you are saying that there was a hole in the top of JFK's head that
allowed the tailsplach to go forward and upward but the fragments couldn't
have gone forward and upward through that same hole.
Post by mainframetech
Not really. The 'mist' of liquids that was in the Z-film, was probably
"tail splash" as per DiMaio. But nothing there about heavy bullets.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"?
The same one Jenkins saw which he placed in the temporal bone. The same
one Robinson saw which he placed in the temple. They same one numerous
witnesses described and placed much closer to where Humes placed it in his
report than where you claim to see it.
Post by mainframetech
There was the big one and the bone flap,
So are you saying Jenkins, Robinson, and all those other witnesses were
lying when they described small hole on the right side of JFK's head.
Nope, but that was the bullet hole which you have said doesn't
exist...:)
It doesn't exist where you think you saw it. It existed where the AR
placed it. In the parietal bone.
Oh? Then what happened to the bone flap? You're a very confused
person.
That bone flap above the ear was in the portion of the defect which
extended into the temporal bone per the AR.
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You're really tying yourself up worse and worse with trying to escape
the physics of the situation. You won't be able to though. And you won't
find one single expert to back you up on your fragment "dispersion" claim
either.
The laws of physics, just like the evidence, are on my side. You seem to
want to invent new laws. You want to claim that the blood and brain tissue
ejected from JFK's head could go forward but the bullet fragments escaping
from the skull could not. What physical law tells you that?
Vincent DiMaio mentioned the 'tail splash', but didn't talk about
bullets being forced backward, nor have I ever heard of such a thing. If
you have, trot out the proof or give it up.
Vincent DiMaio doesn't believe the blood and gore going forward was tail
splash. You have a habit of citing people who don't agree with your
beliefs.
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And try to understand I've been arguing with YOUR set of facts, not
mine. Mine say you are completely off you rocker and there was a bullet
hole in the right forehead/temple area that passed through the head and
blew out the BOH, leaving a large hole.
I'll have to take your word for what happens in Conspiracyland. In the
real world there was no bullet hole in JFK's forhead.
LOL! Tell that to the over 39 eyewitnesses to the large hole in the
BOH of JFK.
We were talking about your imaginary bullet hole in the forehead.
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Nothing came from the BOH forward
to pop out of some wound and arc up and over and come level after being
fired downward. That's all poppycock from you trying to imagine your way
out of the corner you painted yourself into.
Because you say so.
Nope, because physics says so.
Apparently Conspiracyland has its own laws of physics.
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and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
The AR cited a small entry wound on the BOH, an exit wound on the right
side of the head, an entrance wound on the upper back and it concluded
there had been an exit wound where the tracheostomy incision had been
made. That's four missile wounds by my count.
However, I was counting the missile wounds in the head only, since you
claimed that fragments from the head shot flew all over the plaza. I
proved that was impossible, but it seems to live in your head anyway.
You claimed it was impossible and your claims aren't proof.
Which is why I supplied proof based on the position of the head when
the kill shot struck. That's good evidence. That is, if you believe the
Z-film.
The position of the head allowed the blood and gore to be propelled
forward and upward and since the fragments exited from the same defect in
the skull, they too could have gone forward and upward.
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The AR lists 2 missile wounds, on at the right side of the head and about
6 inches wide, and the other was the bone flap wound over the right ear.
As to the bullet hole in the BOH, an autopsy photo shows that no such
wound exists, and the quality of the photo was good.
Teams of highly competent medical examiners looked at ALL the photos and
x-rays and concluded a there was a bullet hole in the back of JFK's head
and it was an entrance. Every last one of them.
Yes, we'll have to look them over for delusions. The autopsy photo of
the BH does not show any hole. We've been over this.
Just because you can't see it in one photo doesn't mean the competent
people who saw all the photos and x-rays couldn't see it.
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That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away from Tague.
Nonsense. The defect was in the TOP right and JFK's head was tilted to his
left so any fragments dispersing from that defect would have had a path to
Tague.
You picture a "path" to Tague from the top of the head of JFK?
You've lost your way again. The top right of the head was pointing to the
right more to the GK.
Explain why the blood and gore went forward and upward.
'Tail Splash', see above.
But I thought you told us the opening was limited to the side of the head.
Shouldn't the tail splash have gone to the side.
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Try and picture that bullet coming down at 60
degrees into the head from the BOH, and rising up to pop out of the top of
the head and fly to the right where the GK is. I don't think so.
I don't think so either. The bullet fragments exited in the same direction
as the gore, forward and upward.
You're thinking is really strange! While I've been playing along with
your rear bullet entry, you know very well that I know there was no such
thing, and a bullet hit the forehead/temple area from the front. Which
completely eliminates your claim.
Your fantasies don't eliminate the reality.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-05-25 23:35:09 UTC
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This a repetitive swamp post. I'm not interested in it anymore.
Chris
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
Seriously? That's how you interpret what he said? He was indicating that
the missing material is what had been dispersed outside the confines of
the limo. Did you really need that explained to you?
Do you really need me to tell you what I recently got through saying?
Particularly about the possibility of part of an MC bullet left stuck in
the Dent blasted into the chrome over the windshield? And how many
fragments were left to be removed by the repair work in Michigan? For
someone that says he considers all possibilities, you may have missed that
one.
Well if you are going to believe a cockamamie story about the limo being
shipped to Michigan because some yahoo 30 years later said that happened
you might as well go all in and assume more fragments were found. You have
no evidence for any of this. You simply assume this to be the case.
I've showed you the evidence, but like a typical LN, you have denied
it. You can't believe anything that shows up the WCR. Actually, the
facts of George Whitaker fit perfectly with other facts, like the limo
being unvisited the day it went off to Michigan for repairs and cleanup.
So the fact the limo was unvisited in your world means it was in Michigan.
We are supposed to believe that in one day limo was transported to
Michigan, the interior completely refurbished, and then the limo was
transported back to Washington. Truly amazing.
Post by mainframetech
Unvisited because it wasn't there in the garage that day. And Whitaker's
statement that he saw the limo that day in Michigan and did repairs on the
windshield that had a bullet hole through it. He corroborates the Evalea
Glanges statement that the bullet came in from in front of the limo. And
since he worked in the glass shop of Ford, he should know better than most
people.
Nobody corroborates Whitaker nor is there any documentation that
corroborates him. He is the sole source for the limo being in Michigan and
there is documentation and witnesses who refute his tall tale.
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
We aren't talking about the distance. We are talking about the direction.
Right, that was my point, direction of the head wounds were to the
right of the limo. Away from Tague's direction.
No, the defect was on the upper right of JFK's skull and his head was
tilted to the left which would have put the defect almost directly on top
of the head.
Oh Geez! You're losing it again! Go check the Z-film that you put so
much belief in. It will show you that JFK's face was pointing downward at
about Connally's feet at frame 312,
It was also tilted to his left.
Post by mainframetech
immediately before the kill shot at
313. And the head was only slightly to the left. If any fragment made
its way out of the bullet hole in the forehead/temple area, it would have
hit the floorboards of the limo!
Why did the gore go forward and upward?
Post by mainframetech
http://youtu.be/E0tZFkVhN00
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At the time of the headshot, Tague, JFK, and Oswald were in a single line.
Any fragments dispersed from the defect in the top right side of JFK's
head and continuing in the same general direction would have been heading
toward Tague.
You seem to have no concept of the head and the wounds in it. It
doesn't matter that the 3 were in a line. What matters is the direction
the wounds in the head were pointing in. From the TSBD the direction is
DOWNWARDS. From the head the 2 wounds were to the right of the limo, and
thus away from Tague. The bullet hole on the forehead/temple was pointing down at Connally's feet. Think it through.
Look at the blood and brain being dispersed in Z313. It is going forward
an upward. The fragments exiting would be doing the same which would send
then in Tague's direction.
Not really. The puff of 'mist' (in only one frame) may have been the
reaction that occurs when a rifle hits something with a bullet. This was
"The picture is radically different in the case of a high-velocity rifle
bullet. As the bullet enters the body, there is a “tail
splash,” or backward hurling of injured tissue. This material may
be ejected from the entrance."
So you are trying to tell us that all that gore we see being ejected from
JFK's head was tail splash. From what hole did that tail splash exit from?
Was it from your 5mm forehead/temple bullet hole or your large hole in the
BOH?
Post by mainframetech
From: "Gunshot Wounds" by Vincent DiMaio, Chapter 3, Wound Ballistics
Online at: https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/135302/Gunshot_wounds._Practical_aspects_of_firearms,_ballistics,_and_forensic_techniques.pdf
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes I am. Flatfoots aren't crime scene investigators. Their job at a crime
scene is to secure the scene so the investigators with the know how can
gather the evidence.
So you believe that no cops have any experience with bullets and what
they do to the ground when striking it? An amazing guru indeed!
I believe very few uniformed cops have had experience digging bullets out
of the ground. That's not their job. It's up to experienced crime scene
investigators to gather the forensic evidence from a crime scene. If a cop
said the gouges were bullet holes, he was making a silly assumption. Cops
are known to do that as well.
Ah, 'they lied'! 'they were mistaken'! Whenever they contradict
YOU.
Tell us why a flatfoot would have any experience identifying gouges in the
dirt as bullet holes.
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
Other witnesses including the SS agents said it was a defect that didn't
pass through to the outer surface of the windshield which was still
smooth. The SS agents had the opportunity to closely examine the
windshield. None of your 6 witnesses did and three of them didn't even say
the hole went all the way through. Check their actual words if you don't
believe me.
WRONG! You know full well that there were 6 who said that there was a
clean through and through hole in the windshield glass.
Not based on the quotes you provided. For example St. Louis Post-Dispatch
reporter Richard Dudman, one of your six, state, “A few of us
noted the hole in the windshield when the limousine was standing at the
emergency entrance after the President had been carried inside. I could
not approach close enough to see which side was the cup-shaped spot which
indicates a bullet had pierced the glass from the opposite side.”.
He said he couldn't get close enough to see which side the glass was
struck from.
But he DID say "hole".
Post by bigdog
SS agent Charles Taylor stated “In addition, of particular note
was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what
appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.”.
"hole".
Post by bigdog
DPD cop H.R. Freeman said, “[I was] right beside it. I could of
[sic] touched it…it was a bullet hole. You could tell what it
was.”.
All three of these men saw the bullet hole but none said it had passed
through the windshield yet you count them among your 6 witnesses. That's
why I said only 3 of the 6 said the bullet hole went completely
through.
That's why you're wrong as usual. They all said "hole" which is
pretty clear as to what it was. Not a 'ding' or a 'scratch', but a HOLE!
A hole doesn't have to go through an object to be a hole.
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You've just
quoted no one but said that it was seen by witnesses as a defect, or a
simple ding. Actually many of those people were looking at the glass
AFTER the windshield had been replaced, and AFTER one of the agents dinged
it from the front all over again. We've gone over all this before.
The three witnesses I just quoted saw the limo in Dallas.
If they saw it at the hospital, they said it was a "HOLE".
They didn't say the hole went through the windshield. Only that they saw a
hole.
Post by mainframetech
Later after
it came back form Michigan, it was a 'ding' but from the outside of the
limo, which poor Kelerman didn't realize he was giving away when he spoke
of it in his sworn testimony.
It is pure fantasy that the limo was sent to Michigan. You have ONE
uncorroborated person who claimed that.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
Don't need to in order to point out your lack of evidence.
WRONG! I've produced evidence about the direction of the 2 wounds in
the head of JFK and how no fragment could go from the head to Tague.
Similar evidence applies to some of the other bullet strikes in the plaza.
You cite rumors and present them as evidence. The real evidence indicates
a bullet passed through JFK's head from back to front.
Nope. Won't do. No rumors, but use of the Z-film which you hold in
high esteem. It tells us clearly what position the head of JFK was in
when the kill shot hit him.
Yes, it was in a position where the gore could exit forward and upward
which would allow the bullet fragments to exit in the same direction.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
You have to understand the difference between eyewitnesses who are
notoriously unreliable and expert witnesses who are generally very
reliable. Haag falls into the latter camp.
Ah! 'expert' witnesses are "generally reliable"! I'll remember that
you said it. And here I thought 'experts' were also just human beings and
could make the same mistakes.
Expert witnesses are not infallible but that does not mean their opinions
are not probative. Up against the nonsense you present, it is no contest
which is more credible.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
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You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise?
It describes the size of the defect which is much larger than that single
bone flap.
It sure was, but it had no flaps noted by the 'experts' in the AR.
I guess they didn't realize you needed that explained to you.
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I'd love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found), and the hole in the throat and the big hole.
Do you really need it explained to you that the bone flaps were the pieces
of skull from the defect which remained attached to the scalp.
No explanation could convince me that there was more than the one
single bone flap that was made by Humes and Boswell. You're making it up
to try and get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.
What happened and what you are convinced of took diverging paths a long
time ago.
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No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Then there are the things you imagine. So far the only members of this
forum who claim to see a bullet hole where you do are yourself, Marsh, and
Amy. That hardly makes me the outlier.
Ah, but you forget, those that some of those that I asked to look for
the bullet hole said they saw something there, not a bullet hole, but
something. You on the other hand saw nothing untoward at all. You are
indeed the outlier.
So they said they didn't see a bullet hole and you still want to count
them as being on your side.
I don't count "sides". I point out facts. There are 3 levels of
sightings here, seeing a bullet hole, seeing something, but probably not a
bullet hole, and seeing nothing. Easy to place you on that scale.
You are on the side of the scale with just yourself, Amy, and Marsh.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Nonesense. Any fragment escaping from the top right side of JFK's head
could continue in the same general direction as the whole bullet which
entered his skull.
LOL! ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! The bullet came in a downward direction,
60 degrees according to Humes. If it had continued on it would have gone
through the floor of the limo and hit the street underneath! But even if
it somehow leveled out horizontally, it would have to exit one of the
wounds on the right side of the head, and it would have gone to the right
of the limo. It just plain had to. Physics says so! There were NO
wounds on the left side of the head.
Why didn't the gore that was ejected from JFK's head go out to the right
side if that was the only direction it could escape. JBC was sitting in
front of JFK and he said he was showered with bits of blood and brain. If
blood and brain could move that direction from the blowout in the head, so
could the bullet fragments.
So you are saying that there was a hole in the top of JFK's head that
allowed the tailsplach to go forward and upward but the fragments couldn't
have gone forward and upward through that same hole.
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Not really. The 'mist' of liquids that was in the Z-film, was probably
"tail splash" as per DiMaio. But nothing there about heavy bullets.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"?
The same one Jenkins saw which he placed in the temporal bone. The same
one Robinson saw which he placed in the temple. They same one numerous
witnesses described and placed much closer to where Humes placed it in his
report than where you claim to see it.
Post by mainframetech
There was the big one and the bone flap,
So are you saying Jenkins, Robinson, and all those other witnesses were
lying when they described small hole on the right side of JFK's head.
Nope, but that was the bullet hole which you have said doesn't
exist...:)
It doesn't exist where you think you saw it. It existed where the AR
placed it. In the parietal bone.
Oh? Then what happened to the bone flap? You're a very confused
person.
That bone flap above the ear was in the portion of the defect which
extended into the temporal bone per the AR.
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You're really tying yourself up worse and worse with trying to escape
the physics of the situation. You won't be able to though. And you won't
find one single expert to back you up on your fragment "dispersion" claim
either.
The laws of physics, just like the evidence, are on my side. You seem to
want to invent new laws. You want to claim that the blood and brain tissue
ejected from JFK's head could go forward but the bullet fragments escaping
from the skull could not. What physical law tells you that?
Vincent DiMaio mentioned the 'tail splash', but didn't talk about
bullets being forced backward, nor have I ever heard of such a thing. If
you have, trot out the proof or give it up.
Vincent DiMaio doesn't believe the blood and gore going forward was tail
splash. You have a habit of citing people who don't agree with your
beliefs.
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And try to understand I've been arguing with YOUR set of facts, not
mine. Mine say you are completely off you rocker and there was a bullet
hole in the right forehead/temple area that passed through the head and
blew out the BOH, leaving a large hole.
I'll have to take your word for what happens in Conspiracyland. In the
real world there was no bullet hole in JFK's forhead.
LOL! Tell that to the over 39 eyewitnesses to the large hole in the
BOH of JFK.
We were talking about your imaginary bullet hole in the forehead.
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Nothing came from the BOH forward
to pop out of some wound and arc up and over and come level after being
fired downward. That's all poppycock from you trying to imagine your way
out of the corner you painted yourself into.
Because you say so.
Nope, because physics says so.
Apparently Conspiracyland has its own laws of physics.
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and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
The AR cited a small entry wound on the BOH, an exit wound on the right
side of the head, an entrance wound on the upper back and it concluded
there had been an exit wound where the tracheostomy incision had been
made. That's four missile wounds by my count.
However, I was counting the missile wounds in the head only, since you
claimed that fragments from the head shot flew all over the plaza. I
proved that was impossible, but it seems to live in your head anyway.
You claimed it was impossible and your claims aren't proof.
Which is why I supplied proof based on the position of the head when
the kill shot struck. That's good evidence. That is, if you believe the
Z-film.
The position of the head allowed the blood and gore to be propelled
forward and upward and since the fragments exited from the same defect in
the skull, they too could have gone forward and upward.
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The AR lists 2 missile wounds, on at the right side of the head and about
6 inches wide, and the other was the bone flap wound over the right ear.
As to the bullet hole in the BOH, an autopsy photo shows that no such
wound exists, and the quality of the photo was good.
Teams of highly competent medical examiners looked at ALL the photos and
x-rays and concluded a there was a bullet hole in the back of JFK's head
and it was an entrance. Every last one of them.
Yes, we'll have to look them over for delusions. The autopsy photo of
the BH does not show any hole. We'
Here's Robert Frazier's testimony in the Clay Shaw trial where he
discusses the hole/crack as well as his entire examination of the limo. He
said he conducted it around 1 a.m. the day/early morning after the
assassination and that the limo was as the White House garage.

Key section:
Q: Yes, sir, I see. In connection with your examination of this vehicle did
you have occasion to particularly examine the windshield of the automobile?

Frazier: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you find anything unusual about the windshield and if so, please describe that condition?

Frazier: The windshield was partially broken in a star-shaped fashion,
that is there was a crack in the windshield. I made a specific examination
of it to determine what caused the crack. I found on the inside surface of
the windshield a deposit of lead which had been forced against the glass
and had splattered and as a result determined the glass had been broken by
the impact of a projectile striking the inside surface of the glass and
fracturing the windshield in the outer layer.

Q: Upon what did you base your determination that the glass had been hit
by a projectile hitting the inside rather than the outside?

Frazier: As a result of having examined hundreds of pieces of glass which
have been broken in a known fashion, that is by a blow delivered in a
known way, it is possible by studying the radial cracks or fractures
emanating from the point of force to determine the side of the glass on
which the force was applied.

Using the stress lines left on this glass at the time the glass was broken
and caused by the object which broke the glass it is possible to determine
the direction the force was applied. This examination of the cracks showed
that the pressure had been applied on the inside surface.

He also said he found blood and tissue all over the interior of the car,
on the hood, on the inside of the windshield, et cetera. None of this
could have occurred, it seems to me, if the blowout was in the rear of the
head.

I guess we need to add Frazier to the list of conspirators.

http://www.jfk-online.com/rfraziershaw.html
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-26 23:23:13 UTC
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This a repetitive swamp post. I'm not interested in it anymore.
Chris
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
Seriously? That's how you interpret what he said? He was indicating that
the missing material is what had been dispersed outside the confines of
the limo. Did you really need that explained to you?
Do you really need me to tell you what I recently got through saying?
Particularly about the possibility of part of an MC bullet left stuck in
the Dent blasted into the chrome over the windshield? And how many
fragments were left to be removed by the repair work in Michigan? For
someone that says he considers all possibilities, you may have missed that
one.
Well if you are going to believe a cockamamie story about the limo being
shipped to Michigan because some yahoo 30 years later said that happened
you might as well go all in and assume more fragments were found. You have
no evidence for any of this. You simply assume this to be the case.
I've showed you the evidence, but like a typical LN, you have denied
it. You can't believe anything that shows up the WCR. Actually, the
facts of George Whitaker fit perfectly with other facts, like the limo
being unvisited the day it went off to Michigan for repairs and cleanup.
So the fact the limo was unvisited in your world means it was in Michigan.
We are supposed to believe that in one day limo was transported to
Michigan, the interior completely refurbished, and then the limo was
transported back to Washington. Truly amazing.
Post by mainframetech
Unvisited because it wasn't there in the garage that day. And Whitaker's
statement that he saw the limo that day in Michigan and did repairs on the
windshield that had a bullet hole through it. He corroborates the Evalea
Glanges statement that the bullet came in from in front of the limo. And
since he worked in the glass shop of Ford, he should know better than most
people.
Nobody corroborates Whitaker nor is there any documentation that
corroborates him. He is the sole source for the limo being in Michigan and
there is documentation and witnesses who refute his tall tale.
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
We aren't talking about the distance. We are talking about the direction.
Right, that was my point, direction of the head wounds were to the
right of the limo. Away from Tague's direction.
No, the defect was on the upper right of JFK's skull and his head was
tilted to the left which would have put the defect almost directly on top
of the head.
Oh Geez! You're losing it again! Go check the Z-film that you put so
much belief in. It will show you that JFK's face was pointing downward at
about Connally's feet at frame 312,
It was also tilted to his left.
Post by mainframetech
immediately before the kill shot at
313. And the head was only slightly to the left. If any fragment made
its way out of the bullet hole in the forehead/temple area, it would have
hit the floorboards of the limo!
Why did the gore go forward and upward?
Post by mainframetech
http://youtu.be/E0tZFkVhN00
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At the time of the headshot, Tague, JFK, and Oswald were in a single line.
Any fragments dispersed from the defect in the top right side of JFK's
head and continuing in the same general direction would have been heading
toward Tague.
You seem to have no concept of the head and the wounds in it. It
doesn't matter that the 3 were in a line. What matters is the direction
the wounds in the head were pointing in. From the TSBD the direction is
DOWNWARDS. From the head the 2 wounds were to the right of the limo, and
thus away from Tague. The bullet hole on the forehead/temple was pointing down at Connally's feet. Think it through.
Look at the blood and brain being dispersed in Z313. It is going forward
an upward. The fragments exiting would be doing the same which would send
then in Tague's direction.
Not really. The puff of 'mist' (in only one frame) may have been the
reaction that occurs when a rifle hits something with a bullet. This was
"The picture is radically different in the case of a high-velocity rifle
bullet. As the bullet enters the body, there is a “tail
splash,” or backward hurling of injured tissue. This material may
be ejected from the entrance."
So you are trying to tell us that all that gore we see being ejected from
JFK's head was tail splash. From what hole did that tail splash exit from?
Was it from your 5mm forehead/temple bullet hole or your large hole in the
BOH?
Post by mainframetech
From: "Gunshot Wounds" by Vincent DiMaio, Chapter 3, Wound Ballistics
Online at: https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/135302/Gunshot_wounds._Practical_aspects_of_firearms,_ballistics,_and_forensic_techniques.pdf
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes I am. Flatfoots aren't crime scene investigators. Their job at a crime
scene is to secure the scene so the investigators with the know how can
gather the evidence.
So you believe that no cops have any experience with bullets and what
they do to the ground when striking it? An amazing guru indeed!
I believe very few uniformed cops have had experience digging bullets out
of the ground. That's not their job. It's up to experienced crime scene
investigators to gather the forensic evidence from a crime scene. If a cop
said the gouges were bullet holes, he was making a silly assumption. Cops
are known to do that as well.
Ah, 'they lied'! 'they were mistaken'! Whenever they contradict
YOU.
Tell us why a flatfoot would have any experience identifying gouges in the
dirt as bullet holes.
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
Other witnesses including the SS agents said it was a defect that didn't
pass through to the outer surface of the windshield which was still
smooth. The SS agents had the opportunity to closely examine the
windshield. None of your 6 witnesses did and three of them didn't even say
the hole went all the way through. Check their actual words if you don't
believe me.
WRONG! You know full well that there were 6 who said that there was a
clean through and through hole in the windshield glass.
Not based on the quotes you provided. For example St. Louis Post-Dispatch
reporter Richard Dudman, one of your six, state, “A few of us
noted the hole in the windshield when the limousine was standing at the
emergency entrance after the President had been carried inside. I could
not approach close enough to see which side was the cup-shaped spot which
indicates a bullet had pierced the glass from the opposite side.”.
He said he couldn't get close enough to see which side the glass was
struck from.
But he DID say "hole".
Post by bigdog
SS agent Charles Taylor stated “In addition, of particular note
was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what
appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.”.
"hole".
Post by bigdog
DPD cop H.R. Freeman said, “[I was] right beside it. I could of
[sic] touched it…it was a bullet hole. You could tell what it
was.”.
All three of these men saw the bullet hole but none said it had passed
through the windshield yet you count them among your 6 witnesses. That's
why I said only 3 of the 6 said the bullet hole went completely
through.
That's why you're wrong as usual. They all said "hole" which is
pretty clear as to what it was. Not a 'ding' or a 'scratch', but a HOLE!
A hole doesn't have to go through an object to be a hole.
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You've just
quoted no one but said that it was seen by witnesses as a defect, or a
simple ding. Actually many of those people were looking at the glass
AFTER the windshield had been replaced, and AFTER one of the agents dinged
it from the front all over again. We've gone over all this before.
The three witnesses I just quoted saw the limo in Dallas.
If they saw it at the hospital, they said it was a "HOLE".
They didn't say the hole went through the windshield. Only that they saw a
hole.
Post by mainframetech
Later after
it came back form Michigan, it was a 'ding' but from the outside of the
limo, which poor Kelerman didn't realize he was giving away when he spoke
of it in his sworn testimony.
It is pure fantasy that the limo was sent to Michigan. You have ONE
uncorroborated person who claimed that.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
Don't need to in order to point out your lack of evidence.
WRONG! I've produced evidence about the direction of the 2 wounds in
the head of JFK and how no fragment could go from the head to Tague.
Similar evidence applies to some of the other bullet strikes in the plaza.
You cite rumors and present them as evidence. The real evidence indicates
a bullet passed through JFK's head from back to front.
Nope. Won't do. No rumors, but use of the Z-film which you hold in
high esteem. It tells us clearly what position the head of JFK was in
when the kill shot hit him.
Yes, it was in a position where the gore could exit forward and upward
which would allow the bullet fragments to exit in the same direction.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
You have to understand the difference between eyewitnesses who are
notoriously unreliable and expert witnesses who are generally very
reliable. Haag falls into the latter camp.
Ah! 'expert' witnesses are "generally reliable"! I'll remember that
you said it. And here I thought 'experts' were also just human beings and
could make the same mistakes.
Expert witnesses are not infallible but that does not mean their opinions
are not probative. Up against the nonsense you present, it is no contest
which is more credible.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
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You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise?
It describes the size of the defect which is much larger than that single
bone flap.
It sure was, but it had no flaps noted by the 'experts' in the AR.
I guess they didn't realize you needed that explained to you.
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I'd love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found), and the hole in the throat and the big hole.
Do you really need it explained to you that the bone flaps were the pieces
of skull from the defect which remained attached to the scalp.
No explanation could convince me that there was more than the one
single bone flap that was made by Humes and Boswell. You're making it up
to try and get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.
What happened and what you are convinced of took diverging paths a long
time ago.
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No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Then there are the things you imagine. So far the only members of this
forum who claim to see a bullet hole where you do are yourself, Marsh, and
Amy. That hardly makes me the outlier.
Ah, but you forget, those that some of those that I asked to look for
the bullet hole said they saw something there, not a bullet hole, but
something. You on the other hand saw nothing untoward at all. You are
indeed the outlier.
So they said they didn't see a bullet hole and you still want to count
them as being on your side.
I don't count "sides". I point out facts. There are 3 levels of
sightings here, seeing a bullet hole, seeing something, but probably not a
bullet hole, and seeing nothing. Easy to place you on that scale.
You are on the side of the scale with just yourself, Amy, and Marsh.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Nonesense. Any fragment escaping from the top right side of JFK's head
could continue in the same general direction as the whole bullet which
entered his skull.
LOL! ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! The bullet came in a downward direction,
60 degrees according to Humes. If it had continued on it would have gone
through the floor of the limo and hit the street underneath! But even if
it somehow leveled out horizontally, it would have to exit one of the
wounds on the right side of the head, and it would have gone to the right
of the limo. It just plain had to. Physics says so! There were NO
wounds on the left side of the head.
Why didn't the gore that was ejected from JFK's head go out to the right
side if that was the only direction it could escape. JBC was sitting in
front of JFK and he said he was showered with bits of blood and brain. If
blood and brain could move that direction from the blowout in the head, so
could the bullet fragments.
So you are saying that there was a hole in the top of JFK's head that
allowed the tailsplach to go forward and upward but the fragments couldn't
have gone forward and upward through that same hole.
Post by mainframetech
Not really. The 'mist' of liquids that was in the Z-film, was probably
"tail splash" as per DiMaio. But nothing there about heavy bullets.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"?
The same one Jenkins saw which he placed in the temporal bone. The same
one Robinson saw which he placed in the temple. They same one numerous
witnesses described and placed much closer to where Humes placed it in his
report than where you claim to see it.
Post by mainframetech
There was the big one and the bone flap,
So are you saying Jenkins, Robinson, and all those other witnesses were
lying when they described small hole on the right side of JFK's head.
Nope, but that was the bullet hole which you have said doesn't
exist...:)
It doesn't exist where you think you saw it. It existed where the AR
placed it. In the parietal bone.
Oh? Then what happened to the bone flap? You're a very confused
person.
That bone flap above the ear was in the portion of the defect which
extended into the temporal bone per the AR.
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You're really tying yourself up worse and worse with trying to escape
the physics of the situation. You won't be able to though. And you won't
find one single expert to back you up on your fragment "dispersion" claim
either.
The laws of physics, just like the evidence, are on my side. You seem to
want to invent new laws. You want to claim that the blood and brain tissue
ejected from JFK's head could go forward but the bullet fragments escaping
from the skull could not. What physical law tells you that?
Vincent DiMaio mentioned the 'tail splash', but didn't talk about
bullets being forced backward, nor have I ever heard of such a thing. If
you have, trot out the proof or give it up.
Vincent DiMaio doesn't believe the blood and gore going forward was tail
splash. You have a habit of citing people who don't agree with your
beliefs.
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And try to understand I've been arguing with YOUR set of facts, not
mine. Mine say you are completely off you rocker and there was a bullet
hole in the right forehead/temple area that passed through the head and
blew out the BOH, leaving a large hole.
I'll have to take your word for what happens in Conspiracyland. In the
real world there was no bullet hole in JFK's forhead.
LOL! Tell that to the over 39 eyewitnesses to the large hole in the
BOH of JFK.
We were talking about your imaginary bullet hole in the forehead.
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Nothing came from the BOH forward
to pop out of some wound and arc up and over and come level after being
fired downward. That's all poppycock from you trying to imagine your way
out of the corner you painted yourself into.
Because you say so.
Nope, because physics says so.
Apparently Conspiracyland has its own laws of physics.
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and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
The AR cited a small entry wound on the BOH, an exit wound on the right
side of the head, an entrance wound on the upper back and it concluded
there had been an exit wound where the tracheostomy incision had been
made. That's four missile wounds by my count.
However, I was counting the missile wounds in the head only, since you
claimed that fragments from the head shot flew all over the plaza. I
proved that was impossible, but it seems to live in your head anyway.
You claimed it was impossible and your claims aren't proof.
Which is why I supplied proof based on the position of the head when
the kill shot struck. That's good evidence. That is, if you believe the
Z-film.
The position of the head allowed the blood and gore to be propelled
forward and upward and since the fragments exited from the same defect in
the skull, they too could have gone forward and upward.
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The AR lists 2 missile wounds, on at the right side of the head and about
6 inches wide, and the other was the bone flap wound over the right ear.
As to the bullet hole in the BOH, an autopsy photo shows that no such
wound exists, and the quality of the photo was good.
Teams of highly competent medical examiners looked at ALL the photos and
x-rays and concluded a there was a bullet hole in the back of JFK's head
and it was an entrance. Every last one of them.
Yes, we'll have to look them over for delusions. The autopsy photo of
the BH does not show any hole. We'
Here's Robert Frazier's testimony in the Clay Shaw trial where he
discusses the hole/crack as well as his entire examination of the limo. He
said he conducted it around 1 a.m. the day/early morning after the
assassination and that the limo was as the White House garage.
Q: Yes, sir, I see. In connection with your examination of this vehicle did
you have occasion to particularly examine the windshield of the automobile?
Frazier: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you find anything unusual about the windshield and if so, please describe that condition?
Frazier: The windshield was partially broken in a star-shaped fashion,
that is there was a crack in the windshield. I made a specific examination
of it to determine what caused the crack. I found on the inside surface of
the windshield a deposit of lead which had been forced against the glass
and had splattered and as a result determined the glass had been broken by
the impact of a projectile striking the inside surface of the glass and
fracturing the windshield in the outer layer.
Q: Upon what did you base your determination that the glass had been hit
by a projectile hitting the inside rather than the outside?
Frazier: As a result of having examined hundreds of pieces of glass which
have been broken in a known fashion, that is by a blow delivered in a
known way, it is possible by studying the radial cracks or fractures
emanating from the point of force to determine the side of the glass on
which the force was applied.
Using the stress lines left on this glass at the time the glass was broken
and caused by the object which broke the glass it is possible to determine
the direction the force was applied. This examination of the cracks showed
that the pressure had been applied on the inside surface.
He also said he found blood and tissue all over the interior of the car,
on the hood, on the inside of the windshield, et cetera. None of this
could have occurred, it seems to me, if the blowout was in the rear of the
head.
I guess we need to add Frazier to the list of conspirators.
http://www.jfk-online.com/rfraziershaw.html
OMG, are you new here? He already did, years ago. He says that Frazier
tampered with the ballistic evidence in his care. Making CE 399 out of
a test bullet he himself shot the next day. Don't put ANYTHING past the
alterationists.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-26 18:42:52 UTC
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This a repetitive swamp post. I'm not interested in it anymore.
Chris
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
Seriously? That's how you interpret what he said? He was indicating that
the missing material is what had been dispersed outside the confines of
the limo. Did you really need that explained to you?
Do you really need me to tell you what I recently got through saying?
Particularly about the possibility of part of an MC bullet left stuck in
the Dent blasted into the chrome over the windshield? And how many
fragments were left to be removed by the repair work in Michigan? For
someone that says he considers all possibilities, you may have missed that
one.
Well if you are going to believe a cockamamie story about the limo being
shipped to Michigan because some yahoo 30 years later said that happened
you might as well go all in and assume more fragments were found. You have
no evidence for any of this. You simply assume this to be the case.
I've showed you the evidence, but like a typical LN, you have denied
it. You can't believe anything that shows up the WCR. Actually, the
facts of George Whitaker fit perfectly with other facts, like the limo
being unvisited the day it went off to Michigan for repairs and cleanup.
So the fact the limo was unvisited in your world means it was in Michigan.
Silly straw man. The limo was visited in the WHite House garage and
worked on there. Don't fall for his silly arguments.
Post by bigdog
We are supposed to believe that in one day limo was transported to
Michigan, the interior completely refurbished, and then the limo was
transported back to Washington. Truly amazing.
Even worse than that. They's have to put in yet another windshield and
damage it precisely to match all the cracks in the photo which do match
from Dealey Plaza and the WH garare that night. I guess someone could do
it, bu I've never seen anyone good enoug to do it perfectly.
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Post by mainframetech
Unvisited because it wasn't there in the garage that day. And Whitaker's
statement that he saw the limo that day in Michigan and did repairs on the
windshield that had a bullet hole through it. He corroborates the Evalea
Glanges statement that the bullet came in from in front of the limo. And
since he worked in the glass shop of Ford, he should know better than most
people.
Nobody corroborates Whitaker nor is there any documentation that
corroborates him. He is the sole source for the limo being in Michigan and
there is documentation and witnesses who refute his tall tale.
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
We aren't talking about the distance. We are talking about the direction.
Right, that was my point, direction of the head wounds were to the
right of the limo. Away from Tague's direction.
No, the defect was on the upper right of JFK's skull and his head was
tilted to the left which would have put the defect almost directly on top
of the head.
Oh Geez! You're losing it again! Go check the Z-film that you put so
much belief in. It will show you that JFK's face was pointing downward at
about Connally's feet at frame 312,
It was also tilted to his left.
So, who has the best diagram of the head at Z-312?
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immediately before the kill shot at
313. And the head was only slightly to the left. If any fragment made
its way out of the bullet hole in the forehead/temple area, it would have
hit the floorboards of the limo!
Why did the gore go forward and upward?
That's where the bullet exploded an opened up the head.
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http://youtu.be/E0tZFkVhN00
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At the time of the headshot, Tague, JFK, and Oswald were in a single line.
Any fragments dispersed from the defect in the top right side of JFK's
head and continuing in the same general direction would have been heading
toward Tague.
You seem to have no concept of the head and the wounds in it. It
doesn't matter that the 3 were in a line. What matters is the direction
the wounds in the head were pointing in. From the TSBD the direction is
DOWNWARDS. From the head the 2 wounds were to the right of the limo, and
thus away from Tague. The bullet hole on the forehead/temple was pointing down at Connally's feet. Think it through.
Look at the blood and brain being dispersed in Z313. It is going forward
an upward. The fragments exiting would be doing the same which would send
then in Tague's direction.
Not really. The puff of 'mist' (in only one frame) may have been the
reaction that occurs when a rifle hits something with a bullet. This was
"The picture is radically different in the case of a high-velocity rifle
bullet. As the bullet enters the body, there is a ???tail
splash,??? or backward hurling of injured tissue. This material may
be ejected from the entrance."
So you are trying to tell us that all that gore we see being ejected from
JFK's head was tail splash. From what hole did that tail splash exit from?
Was it from your 5mm forehead/temple bullet hole or your large hole in the
BOH?
I suspect he thinks it's backsplatter.
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From: "Gunshot Wounds" by Vincent DiMaio, Chapter 3, Wound Ballistics
Online at: https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/135302/Gunshot_wounds._Practical_aspects_of_firearms,_ballistics,_and_forensic_techniques.pdf
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes I am. Flatfoots aren't crime scene investigators. Their job at a crime
scene is to secure the scene so the investigators with the know how can
gather the evidence.
So you believe that no cops have any experience with bullets and what
they do to the ground when striking it? An amazing guru indeed!
I believe very few uniformed cops have had experience digging bullets out
of the ground. That's not their job. It's up to experienced crime scene
investigators to gather the forensic evidence from a crime scene. If a cop
said the gouges were bullet holes, he was making a silly assumption. Cops
are known to do that as well.
Ah, 'they lied'! 'they were mistaken'! Whenever they contradict
YOU.
Tell us why a flatfoot would have any experience identifying gouges in the
dirt as bullet holes.
Gouges in the dirt? Did they look for holes in thr grass? Silly.
One kook thinks the FBI agent pickec up a spent bullet on the ground.
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
Other witnesses including the SS agents said it was a defect that didn't
pass through to the outer surface of the windshield which was still
smooth. The SS agents had the opportunity to closely examine the
windshield. None of your 6 witnesses did and three of them didn't even say
the hole went all the way through. Check their actual words if you don't
believe me.
WRONG! You know full well that there were 6 who said that there was a
clean through and through hole in the windshield glass.
Not based on the quotes you provided. For example St. Louis Post-Dispatch
reporter Richard Dudman, one of your six, state, ???A few of us
noted the hole in the windshield when the limousine was standing at the
emergency entrance after the President had been carried inside. I could
not approach close enough to see which side was the cup-shaped spot which
indicates a bullet had pierced the glass from the opposite side.???.
He said he couldn't get close enough to see which side the glass was
struck from.
But he DID say "hole".
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SS agent Charles Taylor stated ???In addition, of particular note
was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what
appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.???.
"hole".
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DPD cop H.R. Freeman said, ???[I was] right beside it. I could of
[sic] touched it???it was a bullet hole. You could tell what it
was.???.
All three of these men saw the bullet hole but none said it had passed
through the windshield yet you count them among your 6 witnesses. That's
why I said only 3 of the 6 said the bullet hole went completely
through.
That's why you're wrong as usual. They all said "hole" which is
pretty clear as to what it was. Not a 'ding' or a 'scratch', but a HOLE!
A hole doesn't have to go through an object to be a hole.
You mean a dent?
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You've just
quoted no one but said that it was seen by witnesses as a defect, or a
simple ding. Actually many of those people were looking at the glass
AFTER the windshield had been replaced, and AFTER one of the agents dinged
it from the front all over again. We've gone over all this before.
The three witnesses I just quoted saw the limo in Dallas.
If they saw it at the hospital, they said it was a "HOLE".
They didn't say the hole went through the windshield. Only that they saw a
hole.
Don't misquote. Some said it was a bullet hole THROUGH the winshield.
Just argue against his sillinesss, don't add to it.
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Later after
it came back form Michigan, it was a 'ding' but from the outside of the
limo, which poor Kelerman didn't realize he was giving away when he spoke
of it in his sworn testimony.
It is pure fantasy that the limo was sent to Michigan. You have ONE
uncorroborated person who claimed that.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
Don't need to in order to point out your lack of evidence.
WRONG! I've produced evidence about the direction of the 2 wounds in
the head of JFK and how no fragment could go from the head to Tague.
Similar evidence applies to some of the other bullet strikes in the plaza.
You cite rumors and present them as evidence. The real evidence indicates
a bullet passed through JFK's head from back to front.
Nope. Won't do. No rumors, but use of the Z-film which you hold in
high esteem. It tells us clearly what position the head of JFK was in
when the kill shot hit him.
Yes, it was in a position where the gore could exit forward and upward
which would allow the bullet fragments to exit in the same direction.
The Connallys were pelted by tiny fragments much like spent buckshot. The
fragments UNDER the jump seat could not have gotten down there DURING the
shooting. Only when The Connallys got up and they folded up the jump seats
and moved them forward.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
You have to understand the difference between eyewitnesses who are
notoriously unreliable and expert witnesses who are generally very
reliable. Haag falls into the latter camp.
Ah! 'expert' witnesses are "generally reliable"! I'll remember that
you said it. And here I thought 'experts' were also just human beings and
could make the same mistakes.
Expert witnesses are not infallible but that does not mean their opinions
are not probative. Up against the nonsense you present, it is no contest
which is more credible.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
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You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise?
It describes the size of the defect which is much larger than that single
bone flap.
It sure was, but it had no flaps noted by the 'experts' in the AR.
I guess they didn't realize you needed that explained to you.
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I'd love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found), and the hole in the throat and the big hole.
Do you really need it explained to you that the bone flaps were the pieces
of skull from the defect which remained attached to the scalp.
No explanation could convince me that there was more than the one
single bone flap that was made by Humes and Boswell. You're making it up
to try and get yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into.
What happened and what you are convinced of took diverging paths a long
time ago.
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No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Then there are the things you imagine. So far the only members of this
forum who claim to see a bullet hole where you do are yourself, Marsh, and
Amy. That hardly makes me the outlier.
Ah, but you forget, those that some of those that I asked to look for
the bullet hole said they saw something there, not a bullet hole, but
something. You on the other hand saw nothing untoward at all. You are
indeed the outlier.
So they said they didn't see a bullet hole and you still want to count
them as being on your side.
I don't count "sides". I point out facts. There are 3 levels of
sightings here, seeing a bullet hole, seeing something, but probably not a
bullet hole, and seeing nothing. Easy to place you on that scale.
You are on the side of the scale with just yourself, Amy, and Marsh.
Please leave out of your delusions. I am the one who proved there is NO
bullet hole. You're welcome.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Nonesense. Any fragment escaping from the top right side of JFK's head
could continue in the same general direction as the whole bullet which
entered his skull.
LOL! ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! The bullet came in a downward direction,
60 degrees according to Humes. If it had continued on it would have gone
through the floor of the limo and hit the street underneath! But even if
it somehow leveled out horizontally, it would have to exit one of the
wounds on the right side of the head, and it would have gone to the right
of the limo. It just plain had to. Physics says so! There were NO
wounds on the left side of the head.
Why didn't the gore that was ejected from JFK's head go out to the right
side if that was the only direction it could escape. JBC was sitting in
front of JFK and he said he was showered with bits of blood and brain. If
blood and brain could move that direction from the blowout in the head, so
could the bullet fragments.
So you are saying that there was a hole in the top of JFK's head that
allowed the tailsplach to go forward and upward but the fragments couldn't
have gone forward and upward through that same hole.
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Not really. The 'mist' of liquids that was in the Z-film, was probably
"tail splash" as per DiMaio. But nothing there about heavy bullets.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"?
The same one Jenkins saw which he placed in the temporal bone. The same
one Robinson saw which he placed in the temple. They same one numerous
witnesses described and placed much closer to where Humes placed it in his
report than where you claim to see it.
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There was the big one and the bone flap,
So are you saying Jenkins, Robinson, and all those other witnesses were
lying when they described small hole on the right side of JFK's head.
Nope, but that was the bullet hole which you have said doesn't
exist...:)
It doesn't exist where you think you saw it. It existed where the AR
placed it. In the parietal bone.
Oh? Then what happened to the bone flap? You're a very confused
person.
That bone flap above the ear was in the portion of the defect which
extended into the temporal bone per the AR.
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You're really tying yourself up worse and worse with trying to escape
the physics of the situation. You won't be able to though. And you won't
find one single expert to back you up on your fragment "dispersion" claim
either.
The laws of physics, just like the evidence, are on my side. You seem to
want to invent new laws. You want to claim that the blood and brain tissue
ejected from JFK's head could go forward but the bullet fragments escaping
from the skull could not. What physical law tells you that?
Vincent DiMaio mentioned the 'tail splash', but didn't talk about
bullets being forced backward, nor have I ever heard of such a thing. If
you have, trot out the proof or give it up.
Vincent DiMaio doesn't believe the blood and gore going forward was tail
splash. You have a habit of citing people who don't agree with your
beliefs.
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And try to understand I've been arguing with YOUR set of facts, not
mine. Mine say you are completely off you rocker and there was a bullet
hole in the right forehead/temple area that passed through the head and
blew out the BOH, leaving a large hole.
I'll have to take your word for what happens in Conspiracyland. In the
real world there was no bullet hole in JFK's forhead.
LOL! Tell that to the over 39 eyewitnesses to the large hole in the
BOH of JFK.
We were talking about your imaginary bullet hole in the forehead.
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Nothing came from the BOH forward
to pop out of some wound and arc up and over and come level after being
fired downward. That's all poppycock from you trying to imagine your way
out of the corner you painted yourself into.
Because you say so.
Nope, because physics says so.
Apparently Conspiracyland has its own laws of physics.
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and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
The AR cited a small entry wound on the BOH, an exit wound on the right
side of the head, an entrance wound on the upper back and it concluded
there had been an exit wound where the tracheostomy incision had been
made. That's four missile wounds by my count.
However, I was counting the missile wounds in the head only, since you
claimed that fragments from the head shot flew all over the plaza. I
proved that was impossible, but it seems to live in your head anyway.
You claimed it was impossible and your claims aren't proof.
Which is why I supplied proof based on the position of the head when
the kill shot struck. That's good evidence. That is, if you believe the
Z-film.
The position of the head allowed the blood and gore to be propelled
forward and upward and since the fragments exited from the same defect in
the skull, they too could have gone forward and upward.
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The AR lists 2 missile wounds, on at the right side of the head and about
6 inches wide, and the other was the bone flap wound over the right ear.
As to the bullet hole in the BOH, an autopsy photo shows that no such
wound exists, and the quality of the photo was good.
Teams of highly competent medical examiners looked at ALL the photos and
x-rays and concluded a there was a bullet hole in the back of JFK's head
and it was an entrance. Every last one of them.
Yes, we'll have to look them over for delusions. The autopsy photo of
the BH does not show any hole. We've been over this.
Just because you can't see it in one photo doesn't mean the competent
people who saw all the photos and x-rays couldn't see it.
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That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away from Tague.
Nonsense. The defect was in the TOP right and JFK's head was tilted to his
left so any fragments dispersing from that defect would have had a path to
Tague.
You picture a "path" to Tague from the top of the head of JFK?
You've lost your way again. The top right of the head was pointing to the
right more to the GK.
Explain why the blood and gore went forward and upward.
'Tail Splash', see above.
But I thought you told us the opening was limited to the side of the head.
Shouldn't the tail splash have gone to the side.
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Try and picture that bullet coming down at 60
degrees into the head from the BOH, and rising up to pop out of the top of
the head and fly to the right where the GK is. I don't think so.
I don't think so either. The bullet fragments exited in the same direction
as the gore, forward and upward.
You're thinking is really strange! While I've been playing along with
your rear bullet entry, you know very well that I know there was no such
thing, and a bullet hit the forehead/temple area from the front. Which
completely eliminates your claim.
Your fantasies don't eliminate the reality.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-23 02:54:48 UTC
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Raw Message
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
Seriously? That's how you interpret what he said? He was indicating that
the missing material is what had been dispersed outside the confines of
the limo. Did you really need that explained to you?
Or maybe thrown away when someone cleaned up the limo at Parkland. Police
always like to clean up a crime scene before they investigate. Someone
might slip on all that blood and break his neck!
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
We aren't talking about the distance. We are talking about the direction.
At the time of the headshot, Tague, JFK, and Oswald were in a single line.
Any fragments dispersed from the defect in the top right side of JFK's
head and continuing in the same general direction would have been heading
toward Tague.
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes I am. Flatfoots aren't crime scene investigators. Their job at a crime
scene is to secure the scene so the investigators with the know how can
gather the evidence.
Name the flatfoots you have in mind who screwed up the crime scene.
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
Other witnesses including the SS agents said it was a defect that didn't
pass through to the outer surface of the windshield which was still
smooth. The SS agents had the opportunity to closely examine the
windshield. None of your 6 witnesses did and three of them didn't even say
the hole went all the way through. Check their actual words if you don't
believe me.
Plus, it were a hole instead of a crackm what hit the back of the
rearview mirror? We can see the crack in Altgens 7. That would be an
impossibly short time to replace the windshield. It was a crack.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
Don't need to in order to point out your lack of evidence.
Just making personal attacks is not evidence.
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
You have to understand the difference between eyewitnesses who are
notoriously unreliable and expert witnesses who are generally very
reliable. Haag falls into the latter camp.
No. I was the only one who gave you the actual numbers. Many years ago.
Look at the date of the Xerox.

http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/FBI43646.jpg
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
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You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise?
It describes the size of the defect which is much larger than that single
bone flap.
Post by mainframetech
I's love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found, and the hole in the throat and the big hole.
Do you really need it explained to you that the bone flaps were the pieces
of skull from the defect which remained attached to the scalp.
Post by mainframetech
No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
Then there are the things you imagine. So far the only members of this
forum who claim to see a bullet hole where you do are yourself, Marsh, and
Amy. That hardly makes me the outlier.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
Nonesense. Any fragment escaping from the top right side of JFK's head
could continue in the same general direction as the whole bullet which
entered his skull.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"?
The same one Jenkins saw which he placed in the temporal bone. The same
one Robinson saw which he placed in the temple. They same one numerous
witnesses described and placed much closer to where Humes placed it in his
report than where you claim to see it.
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There was the big one and the bone flap,
So are you saying Jenkins, Robinson, and all those other witnesses were
lying when they described small hole on the right side of JFK's head.
Post by mainframetech
and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
The AR cited a small entry wound on the BOH, an exit wound on the right
side of the head, an entrance wound on the upper back and it concluded
there had been an exit wound where the tracheostomy incision had been
made. That's four missile wounds by my count.
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That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away form Tague.
Nonsense. The defect was in the TOP right and JFK's head was tilted to his
left so any fragments dispersing from that defect would have had a path to
Tague.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
"Pass over the windshield"? What planet do you come from?
Apparently not the one you reside on. There is no Conspiracyland where I
live.
Post by mainframetech
The 2
wounds on the head of JFK were described as being on the right side.
TOP RIGHT SIDE which is the part you always forget. Chiefly parietal
according to the AR. The parietal bone extends across the top of the head
to the upper part of each side. The blowout was essentially above his
right ear. That would be as the AR said, chiefly parietal but also
extending into the temporal and occipital regions. This is very basic
anatomy.
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That means the fragments had to go to the right, and not to Tague. This
is repetition over and over.
No it doesn't. I see your understanding of geometry is as weak as your
understanding of anatomy.
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Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
STOP giving out false information!
No really. That's where the AR placed it. Other witnesses put it very
close to that spot as well.
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There are NO OTHER wounds
described in the AR in the head.
It described an entrance wound in the back of he head. It described an
exit wound in the parietal bone. It described a large defect in between.
Post by mainframetech
The large one mostly at the BOH and the
right side, and the bone flap to the right over the ear. There are NO
OTHER flaps described.
That's because they described the defect. They had no idea you wouldn't be
able to figure out the bone from that defect either detached, as the
Harper fragment did or remained attacked to the scalp as the other
fragments did. There were multiple bone flaps formed when the blowout
occurred.
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Spit out the info on these wild bone flaps you
have conjured up please! Cites and links.
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With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
Mainly because they started out knowing little and progressed to
knowing nothing.
So once again you pretend to know more than real experts.
Post by mainframetech
I'm talking simple physics. A fragment can only go
through a hole in the head, and the AR describes both of them as being on
the right side.
Go back and check were the parietal bone is.
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It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
Nor is your failure to understand.
I've never understood you. That's a good thing.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
Post by mainframetech
Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
Post by mainframetech
and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is an exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.
Please show the description of all these bone flaps from the AR. I
missed them when I read it. Cites and links.
They didn't describe the flaps. The described the defect left when those
flaps were blown open.
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? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
Post by mainframetech
will STILL see that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
And what of the bullet that smacked hard into the chrome over the
windshield?
I have no explanation of your imaginary shots.
Post by mainframetech
Or for that matter, the bullet hole that came through the
windshield from the front seen by 6 witnesses?
As I was saying...
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
I don't assume it. I recognize it as a possibility. Another possibility is
it was there all along. The case against Oswald doesn't depend on
establishing the cause of that damage. It is a peripheral issue.
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times.
As I recall most of your witnesses didn't say the hole went through the
windshield and on of your witnesses didn't see the car because the limo
wasn't sent back to the factory when he claims it was.
You have yet to prove that, whereas I've proved that it did go to
Michigan for repairs. You need evidence for your wild statements.
You cited a "witness" who many years later claimed to have seen that. Does
that constitute proof in Conspiracyland?
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A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.
I love how you always put your spin on what these witnesses said rather
than quoting them.
I've shown you the articles proving that. And if you would like the
http://youtu.be/vClwuJ0yuWM
And once again you present a witness giving an account many years later as
proof. What about the witnesses who said the missile hadn't passed through
to the front surface of the glass. Don't they count as proof?
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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path,
Of course I did and once again you are pretending I didn't. The path went
over the windshied an then curved down to Tague's postion.
WRONG! JFK's head was much lower than the windshield of the limo, and
the 2 wounds in his head (as described in the AR) were pointing to the
right, so the fragment would have gone to the right and up for a good
while if it went "OVER" the windshield! Fragments going upward somewhat
will not simply come down from gravity to look like a ski jump had been
used. We're talking about a fragment that would have to strike the curb
with enough force to break off a chunk to hit him in the cheek.
I'm afraid I don't know how to explain simple geometry to you. I can't
help you.
Post by mainframetech
Further silliness is seen when you consider that the large wound on the
back and the side of the head was enlarged by Humes and Boswell when the
body was received at Bethesda morgue. Before that there was only a large
wound at the BOH.
Are you trying to bore us to death with this nonsense. You just might
succeed.
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since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.
The defect was partially in the top of the head. Any bullet exiting tha
portion of the wound would be able to pass over the windshield and curve
downward toward Tague.
Oh Lordee! You're getting wilder and wilder in your desperation to
some how save this mess you've got. Now the wound in the head which was
pointing mostly upward had a fragment coming out of it straight up in the
air, and then looping and curving down to the ground where Tague was and
striking the curb hard enough to knock off a chip of concrete and hit his
cheek. Do you have any idea how nutty you sound with that silly business?
No, the fragment didn't go straight upward and I never said it did. It
went forward on a slightly upward trajectory. As it continued down range
toward Tague gravity would have caused it to begin arcing back down
because that is what gravity does to bullets and fragmented bullets. They
do not travel in a straight line because that is impossible.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-22 15:59:04 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Ahh! The limo ate his homework!
How come we can't find the documents on the WC defender web sites? Only
mine?
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Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
You're going to have to look again at the position that JFK's head
wound was in when the kill shot arrived. it was more to the right of the
limo, and that was far away from Tague. Saying otherwise won't make it
so.
So what?
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For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Are you now going to argue with the cop that identified the gouges as
bullet marks? And oddly enough they pointed back to the GK!
Yes. WTF are you talking about?
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or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
You think the windshield had a "defect"? It had a hole that 6
eyewitnesses saw. At least one of whom knew how to determine which
direction the bullet came to the glass.
No.
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And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Are you going to offer any evidence soon?
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Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
But...But...you don't believe witnesses! They lie or make mistakes.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Oh? Does your Autopsy Report (AR) say otherwise? I's love to see
the cite. My reading of the AR gives the hole in the BOH (which can't be
found, and the hole in the throat and the big hole. No other wounds are
listed. And the 2 that are listed that allow the inside of the head to
interact with the outside both were on the right side of JFK still
pointing somewhat right while the kill shot struck.
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Post by mainframetech
By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
WRONG! Fortunately, there is no assumption. The bullet hole is there
for anyone to see except you.
WC defenders are not allowed to look at the autopsy photos.
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Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Not a problem! They both were on the right side of the head and so
any fragment escaping the head would have to go through to the right.
Show me YOUR diagram.
Post by mainframetech
Especially if the bullet entered the BOH, say around the middle of the
BOH.
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It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
What "small exit wound"? There was the big one and the bone flap, and
I'm sure you will want to include the bullet hole that no one can see at
the BOH. The AR only speaks of 2 missile wounds, and I've just stated
them. They both were on the right side of the head. The duplication here
is getting ridiculous!
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That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
By description in the AR, it was 13 cm wide. That's about 6 inches.
And both wounds were described as being on the right side of JFK's head.
What seems to be your problem? That means the fragment could only exit to
the right, which takes it away form Tague.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
"Pass over the windshield"? What planet do you come from? The 2
wounds on the head of JFK were described as being on the right side.
That means the fragments had to go to the right, and not to Tague. This
is repetition over and over.
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Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
STOP giving out false information! There are NO OTHER wounds
described in the AR in the head. The large one mostly at the BOH and the
right side, and the bone flap to the right over the ear. There are NO
OTHER flaps described. Spit out the info on these wild bone flaps you
have conjured up please! Cites and links.
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With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
Mainly because they started out knowing little and progressed to
knowing nothing. I'm talking simple physics. A fragment can only go
through a hole in the head, and the AR describes both of them as being on
the right side.
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It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
Nor is your failure to understand.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
Post by mainframetech
Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
Post by mainframetech
and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is an exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.
Please show the description of all these bone flaps from the AR. I
missed them when I read it. Cites and links.
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? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
Post by mainframetech
will STILL see that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
And what of the bullet that smacked hard into the chrome over the
windshield? Or for that matter, the bullet hole that came through the
Could be a fragment.
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windshield from the front seen by 6 witnesses?
FUCK the witnesses.
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
I don't assume it. I recognize it as a possibility. Another possibility is
it was there all along. The case against Oswald doesn't depend on
establishing the cause of that damage. It is a peripheral issue.
Physically impossible. I've seen ALL the photos of the limo.
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times.
As I recall most of your witnesses didn't say the hole went through the
windshield and on of your witnesses didn't see the car because the limo
wasn't sent back to the factory when he claims it was.
You have yet to prove that, whereas I've proved that it did go to
Michigan for repairs. You need evidence for your wild statements.
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A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.
I love how you always put your spin on what these witnesses said rather
than quoting them.
I've shown you the articles proving that. And if you would like the
http://youtu.be/vClwuJ0yuWM
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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path,
Of course I did and once again you are pretending I didn't. The path went
over the windshied an then curved down to Tague's postion.
WRONG! JFK's head was much lower than the windshield of the limo, and
the 2 wounds in his head (as described in the AR) were pointing to the
right, so the fragment would have gone to the right and up for a good
while if it went "OVER" the windshield! Fragments going upward somewhat
will not simply come down from gravity to look like a ski jump had been
Please explain that to Ken Rahn and Larry Sturdivan.
Post by mainframetech
used. We're talking about a fragment that would have to strike the curb
with enough force to break off a chunk to hit him in the cheek.
Further silliness is seen when you consider that the large wound on the
back and the side of the head was enlarged by Humes and Boswell when the
body was received at Bethesda morgue. Before that there was only a large
wound at the BOH.
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Post by mainframetech
since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.
The defect was partially in the top of the head. Any bullet exiting tha
portion of the wound would be able to pass over the windshield and curve
downward toward Tague.
Oh Lordee! You're getting wilder and wilder in your desperation to
some how save this mess you've got. Now the wound in the head which was
pointing mostly upward had a fragment coming out of it straight up in the
air, and then looping and curving down to the ground where Tague was and
striking the curb hard enough to knock off a chip of concrete and hit his
cheek. Do you have any idea how nutty you sound with that silly business?
Chris
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-21 14:59:26 UTC
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Nope. Simply practicing some nitpicking like you do. However, the
point is that YOU don't have solid evidence of what was left in the limo
from bullets.
No, I don't but apparently Luke Haag does because he provided actual
numbers in his radio interview. He stated there were 90 grains missing
from what was found in the limo.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
My phraseology points out that I'm guessing. You need to look for
that clue when I speak.
No I don't. You're always guessing. And doing it badly.
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Post by mainframetech
Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Oh, that goes without saying. Of course, fragments can get outside of
the limo, but only in certain directions if you're talking about fragments
from the head shot. And Tague isn't in one of those directions.
Nonsense. Tague was directly down range of a bullet fired from the TSBD at
the limo at the time of the head shot.
Post by mainframetech
For that
matter neither are the 2 gouges in midfield identified by a cop,
Gouges are not evidence of bullet strikes. That's just a silly assumption.
To make it sound plausible, you came up with the silly hypothesis of two
side by side shooters firing simultaneously.
Post by mainframetech
or the
bullet hole through the windshield that was seen by 6 eyewitnesses.
The saw the defect which wasn't a hole.
Post by mainframetech
And
the primary shot into the chrome over the windshield is extremely doubtful
too. So you're claim that all these locations were fragments from the
head shot just doesn't gel.
What you think gels isn't a litmus test for what actually does gel.
Post by mainframetech
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Post by mainframetech
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there was really the full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Well now, if I had offered such an 'estimate' you would be banging away
at me for it.
Why would I do that. It's when you overstate your case that I call you on
it and that's what you do most of the time.
Since posting that, I have since come across the radio interview in which
Luke Haag said the fragments recovered from the limo were 90 grains less
than an entire bullet.
Post by mainframetech
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Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
Oh, I'm just making 'estimates'.
Now neither of us will have to because Haag gave us the actual numbers.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
WRONG! That bone flap wound was pointing in the wrong direction to
allow for a fragment from the head shot to go through to Tague.
The bone flap wasn't the only piece of skull that was blown open.
Post by mainframetech
By that
time JFK was leaning to his left and his head was turned a bit left too.
Check the Z-film, if that can be believed. Of course, all this chat about
hitting Tague with a fragment from the head shot is ridiculous, since the
head shot came in the front of the head.
Silly assumptions lead to silly conclusions.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Think it through. YOU say there was a head shot that struck at the
BOH (somewhere) if you picture the bone flap and the entry you believe for
the head shot, it would send the bullet out of the bone flap to the right
of the limo away from Tague.
You apparently are having a hard time figuring there was both an exit
wound AND a large defect. The bullet hole and the defect in the skull were
described separately in the WCR which is why you'll never see it.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
WRONG! You're still not thinking it through! I'm not concerned with
gravity affecting the bullet path at the moment, but the direction the
bullet had to take to get to Tague from the head of JFK. If the bone flap
wound was pointing slightly up and to the right of the limo, then the
bullet can only go that way if it exited that wound after entering the
BOH.
Why do you keep pretending the only wound on the upper right side of JFK's
head was the bone flap above the ear. That was just one of several such
flaps. In addition, there was a small exit wound.
Post by mainframetech
That would be away from Tague. Given the position of the head at
the time of the kill shot from the BOH (YOU think) That would probably
point the fragment to the right at the Grassy Knoll. A bit of a stretch
to get to Tague.
Are you able to picture it yet?
I'm getting the picture you have no idea how extensive the defect in the
skull was.
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This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Oh my! You're making it up as you go along!
The defect (bone flap)
was pointing at the grassy Knoll. If the shot entered the BOH (you think)
it would have to travel forward and to the right to exit the bone flap.
How many times do you need to be told. There wasn't one bone flap, there
were several. In addition there was the primary exit, a small wound which
the AR placed in the parietal bone.
Post by mainframetech
With his head slightly leaning to the left, The best you could do is have
the fragment hit the GK. A bit away from Tague. But that same situation
occurs for a few of the bullet strikes in the plaza, not just the Tague
shot.
Pretending to be a ballistics expert, again? Why not rely on real experts,
like the Haags.
Post by mainframetech
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Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
That's not a valid argument. I think you suddenly realized what I've
been talking about, which kills your claim of fragments dispersing all
over the place from a single head shot, which in reality, came in from the
front!
I think you are talking nonsense. That's hardly a newsflash.
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Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
You said the wound at the upper right of his head.
I was speaking of the exit hole. For some odd reason, you are having a
real problem with the concept that there were bone flaps AND an exit
wound.
Post by mainframetech
Are we backing out
now? :) Want to choose a different wound? There are only a few to pick
from. Let's see: there is the BOH bullet hole (that YOU think is there
but can't be seen in a good quality photo), then there is the throat wound
which YOU think was an exit for the back wound bullet,
I know it was. So does every competent medical examiner who has seen the
evidence.
Post by mainframetech
and finally there
is the bone flap over the right ear that YOU think is and exit for the BOH
shot.
For some odd reason, you are having a hard time conceptualizing that there
could be both the bone flaps (several) in addition to the small primary
exit wound.
? Pick one and we can do the trajectory plot all over again, and you
Post by mainframetech
will STILL se that some of the bunches of bullets fired into the plaza
were not all ricochets from the head shot.
The only missile that struck outside the limo other than the fragments
that disperse from the defect in the skull was Oswald's first missed shot.
Post by mainframetech
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The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well, see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
But you think that could have happened. Here's a photo of the bullet
strike and the mirror is also in the photo, so you can see that it would
not be very feasible to assume a bullet fragment from the strike did
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/small-arrow-points-at-a-bullet-hole-on-the-windshield-of-president-picture-id576877642
I don't assume it. I recognize it as a possibility. Another possibility is
it was there all along. The case against Oswald doesn't depend on
establishing the cause of that damage. It is a peripheral issue.
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The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
LOL! You think you haven't done that? I've pointed out that the
bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside because of the evidence
that has been pointed out to you many times.
As I recall most of your witnesses didn't say the hole went through the
windshield and on of your witnesses didn't see the car because the limo
wasn't sent back to the factory when he claims it was.
Post by mainframetech
A Parkland hospital doctor
noted that the bullet hole in the windshield was from the outside based on
the way the fracture appeared. When safety glass is struck on one side,
the OTHER side shows the loss of material while the struck side shows
little damage by comparison.
I love how you always put your spin on what these witnesses said rather
than quoting them.
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So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
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Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
WRONG! You have stated that the fragment went from the defect to
Tague. That does NOT describe the path,
Of course I did and once again you are pretending I didn't. The path went
over the windshied an then curved down to Tague's postion.
Post by mainframetech
since the 'defect' was not
pointing at Tague. I could as easily say a bullet went from the TSBD to
Portland, Oregon and give the same amount of info. The bone flap was NOT
pointing in the general direction of Tague. It was pointing more at the
GK.
The defect was partially in the top of the head. Any bullet exiting tha
portion of the wound would be able to pass over the windshield and curve
downward toward Tague.
Almost. Show us where YOU think the intacrt bullet exited.
Both the WC and the HSCA put the exit too low to go up.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-20 00:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
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http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
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Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
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The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
An unfired Carcano bullet weighs 160-161 grains. I heard recently (from
Luke Haag) that the fragments remaining in the limo weighed roughly half
that. I'd call that pretty good evidence a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo.
Let's apply some of your own nitpicking to that claim.
a) You "heard something"
b) "Weighed Roughly half"
c) "pretty good evidence" that fragments escaped limo
If you have better information on the total weight of the fragments then
by all means post it. The Haags are recognized experts in their field.
That makes their opinions valid evidence. The aren't a couple yahoos
rambling on the internet pretending to know far more than they actually
do.
Post by mainframetech
Sounds kind of hazy, not very specific, and sounds too like guesswork
on your part, on guesswork from someone else. On top of which, because
some fragments weren't found in the limo doesn't mean they weren't there.
The blasted extreme dent over the windshield may have contained some of a
bullet stuck there from the high impact.
But you have no evidence of any such fragments. You are simply guessing
and not very well.
Post by mainframetech
Some fragments may have caught
in clothing of the victims of spouses and been taken out with them.
You can imagine all these other places the fragments may have gone but you
can't or won't consider that they could have been dispersed outside of the
limo.
Post by mainframetech
Fragments were "roughly half" which may have been a guess smaller than
reality, and there were rally full weight of a bullet there.
Luke Haag gave the actual numbers but since I didn't remember precisely
what the numbers were I described them as "roughly half". I believe the
number was 90 grains but I couldn't remember whether that is what was
found in the limo or what was missing from what was found. Because I
couldn't remember precisely how he phrased it I chose to offer an estimate
where as Luke Haag was precise which is what I would expect of someone of
his reputation.
Why can't you just read the original documents? Or are you afraid to
visit my Web site?

Loading Image...
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Most of a
bullet was found in 2 halves CE567 & CE569, with only a small part
missing. There were other bits and pieces on the limo floor too. Did
they all add up to a full bullet? There is not nearly enough information
to determine that.
Haag had the actual numbers for what was found and what was missing.
Neither you nor I do but you are acting as if you do.
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That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming from a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. Where would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
It's called dispersion. That means the fragments fanned out. They didn't
all continue on the same vector. It would be silly to think that they
would.
It would be silly to give an answer like that.
I'm sure it seems silly to you because it makes sense.
Post by mainframetech
You have yet to
describe the hole in the head of JFK that let the fragment "disperse" in
the direction of Tague.
No you play the Bob Harris game of pretending you've never been given that
answer. They would have dispersed from the defect at the upper right side
of JFK's head.
Post by mainframetech
Actually, there was no hole that pointed in that
direction, so there was NO DISPERSAL in that direction.
Is that so? A defect that large isn't pointing in one direction.
Post by mainframetech
It's so easy to
gloss over solid proof with comments like you made..."didn't all continue
on the same vector". Which basically says nothing about how a bullet
fragment could leave the head and make it directly to Tague. Thanks for
playing. Try again?
Who said they had to go directly. Just like any missile, they would be
affected by gravity. Even a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun doesn't fly
in a straight line. It flies in an arc because the instant it leaves the
muzzle, gravity starts to pull it downward. Any fragment leaving the upper
right side of JFK's head would behave in the same manner. If it started on
a slightly upward trajectory it would arc back downward. Apparently one
such fragment struck Tague.
Post by mainframetech
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Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH,
It did.
Post by mainframetech
and go through the head to come out
some hole.
That great big one on the upper right side of JFK's head.
Sorry to take away your "evidence" but that part of the head was
pointing elsewhere and not toward Tague.
That defect wasn't pointing in any directly. A path existed for a fragment
to leave that defect, pass over the top of the windshield, arc downward
and strike Tague.
Post by mainframetech
It was pointing to the right of
the limo, so any fragment that came out of that hole would have to go in
that direction, which was away from Tague.
Complete nonsense.
Post by mainframetech
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Post by mainframetech
Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Which one? How about the one that hit him?
Umm...there were very few holes in the head of JFK. And you specified
the bone flap over the right ear. Want to change that? :)
When did I specify the bone flap?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one.
You're not a fan of anything that challenges your cherished beliefs which
means you aren't a fan of real evidence.
Well see if you can make me a fan by describing the path of a fragment
that got to the BACK of the mirror. Particularly the origin of a
fragment, and where it lay after hitting the BACK of the mirror.
I don't know for fact that back of the mirror was struck by a fragment
although it could have been a fragment bouncing of the windshield frame.
That damage is hardly a key element to my beliefs.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get a fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Whether that is from a fragment strike is conjecture. The windshield
strike was not. It was hit from the inside.
If you mean the strike OVER the windshield in the chrome bar, that
one was technically from the inside, or better said, the Back of the
windshield. If you mean the hole through the windshield that 6 eye
witnesses saw, that one was from the outside, as at least one of the
witnesses made clear because of the way in which the hole was made. It
came from OUTSIDE and from the front of the limo.
Now you are just injecting your silly beliefs into the conversation.
Post by mainframetech
So with all that information in mind, what was it you meant above?
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Because you say so.
Sorry, it was a challenge, so either you have an answer or you don't.
If you do, it will be wrong, I'm quite sure.
I've described the path from the defect to Tague more than once including
once again in this post. Keep pretending you haven't been give that
answer. You are acting more like Harris every day.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-10 18:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
WRONG! You spoke of fragments inside the limo, I gave a response to
that. Get a grip. And you don't get to decide what is being discussed,
we each do in our time. As to fragments escaping the limo, I have no
evidence of that whatsoever. All strikes appeared as major primary
strikes, no ricochets, which would be far lower in strength and speed.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really was no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
WRONG! You're not thinking again. I'm aware of the 'downrange'
trajectory of Tague, however we were talking of bullet fragments that were
coming for a head shot to JFK, who was in the limo. Firing down into the
limo would put a bullet (let's say) in the rear of the head of JFK. Now
his head was slightly down towards the front jump seats when the kill shot
struck. What how would the bullet fragment leave from to get over to
tague? There was NO HOLE in that direction.
Post by bigdog
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
You seem to want to avoid parts of the conversation. The bullet (or
fragment) would have to hit the BOH, and go through the head to come out
some hole. Which one was pointing downrange to Tague? Right. None of
them.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
I know Marsh loves the idea of the mirror strike, but I'm not a fan of
that one. The position that it was hit is behind the mirror and it would
be near impossible to get fragment (from where?) to hit that location.
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
You're still at the point where a fragment has to exit the head of JFK,
and there's no hole in the right position to do that and go forward to
Tague. Figure that one out.
Chris
You also would have to thread a needle to go between the parade bar the
chrome topping.

That's what Ken Rahn and Larry Sturdivan are working on.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-08 23:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
What question?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
Oh, that question. No I haven't.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
You moving the goal posts. We were talking about whether fragments escaped
the limo, not what the bullet hit before it fragmented. That's a
completely different discussion.
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
I see geometry is not your strong suit either (I'm not sure what is). If
you would look at a map or bird's eye photo of DP you would see that
Tague's position is directly down range of a shot fired from the SN at the
limo at the time of the head shot. The following photo and diagrams were
apparently put together by a conspiracy hobbyist.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/dealeyplazashots.jpg
This photo theorizes a shot from the Dal-Tex going down range to strike
near Tague and line #1 illustrates that. Move the origin of that line ever
so slightly to the SN and it would pass right through the center of the
middle lane, which is where the limo was when the head shot was fired.
Tague would have been directly down range of the head shot.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
We have three definite strikes inside the limo, the overhead bar, the
windshield, and the rearview mirror. All of those are in the same general
direction but on slightly different vectors from the blowout in the head.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
The escaping fragments did change direction as illustrated by the multiple
strikes inside the limo. Furthermore the fragments found in the limo were
less than half an intact bullet so we know a good deal of the fragments
escaped the limo and going over the windshield as opposed to dispersing to
the left or right of it would require the least amount of deflection.
Do you realize that the dent of the chrome topping was just slightly to
the right of midline while the crack of the windshield was to the left of
the midline? The indentation on the back of the rearview mirror was just
about at the midline. I don't see how ONE fragment can hit all those
places. Maybe a fragment hit the inside of the windshield and ricocheted
back into the rearview mirror. But you need at least 2 sizeable fragments
to cause all that damage. And we have 2 large fragments found in the limo.
But they only add up to about 40% of a Carcano bullet. Where did the rest
go? One fragment was only the copper jacket from the base of the bullet.
The lead core had been squeezed out by impact. Where do you think the lead
core went? Some people think it might have gone on to hit the curb near
Tague.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-08 17:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
First time here? He's a WC defender so he doesn't have to answer
questions. It's the 5th of May so he can plead the 5th.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ASSuMING that the fragments found came from the head shot. No proof though.
Post by mainframetech
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
Could be.
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
Or the bullet had already broken up and one of the pieces hit the chrome
topping.
Post by mainframetech
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
Or the fact that JFK's head was facing to the left would send a fragment
exiting the front of the head at the midline slightly to the left of the
limo. Don't forget that Elm Street was an S curve.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
There was a huge hole, not just the one small bullet hole. The head
exploded.
Post by mainframetech
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
What are you suggesting, two head wounds?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
Diagram it for us.
The HSCA diagram shows an intact bullet exiting the head on a downward
trajectory.


Loading Image...
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Your poor reading comprehension comes through again. I said I could not
express it AS WELL as Luke Tague did so it made more sense to me to just
let him speak for himself. As someone who prefers to paraphrase the words
of others and thus change the meaning of what they said, as you have done
several times just in this post, I guess that doesn't make sense to
you.
Chris
OHLeeRedux
2018-05-08 23:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"?
If you are going to quote me, please do so accurately. I spoke of a
FRAGMENT from the headshot which you conveniently left out.
OK, "...lead fragment from the head shot which flew over the
windshield."
Now that you've stalled, answer the question.
First time here? He's a WC defender so he doesn't have to answer
questions. It's the 5th of May so he can plead the 5th.
Better than telling an outright lie, Anthony "Alternative Facts" Marsh.
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
It is a certainty that fragments from the headshot escaped the limo
because the fragments found inside the limo by the SS were only a fraction
of a whole bullet.
ASSuMING that the fragments found came from the head shot. No proof though.
Post by mainframetech
ABSOLUTELY FALSE! You're using your bad logic again. Soon you'll be
down to opinions. Fragments found inside the limo could well be the
remains of the shot that hit above the windshield in the chrome bar.
Could be.
Post by mainframetech
That could break up any bullet into little pieces. So your thinking that
Or the bullet had already broken up and one of the pieces hit the chrome
topping.
Post by mainframetech
there was just no choice that some fragment from the head shot, which you
believe was from the rear, had to go through a hole in the head of JFK to
travel out toward Tague's location and cut his cheek. So which hole was
it going out through? Try and remember the position of JFK's head.
There really as no hole on the left side which is where Tague was located.
Or the fact that JFK's head was facing to the left would send a fragment
exiting the front of the head at the midline slightly to the left of the
limo. Don't forget that Elm Street was an S curve.
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
The fragments would disperse on multiple vectors which
we know because of the multiple strikes in the front of the limo. Since
the fragments that did strike inside the limo caused multiple points of
damage, it is apparent they still had a good deal of velocity after
leaving the head. It is completely plausible that one of those fragments
could have reached Tague's position and struck him on the cheek.
TOO easy for you to use the phrase "disperse on multiple vectors".
There were a limited number of holes in the head of JFK, and none of them
There was a huge hole, not just the one small bullet hole. The head
exploded.
Post by mainframetech
covered some of the fragments that were flying around the plaza that day.
They simply couldn't ALL come from the same head wound.
What are you suggesting, two head wounds?
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Why would you think these fragments would have to exit from the left side
of JFK's head. That's a strawman argument. Tague was almost directly down
range of a shot fired from the SN at JFK. All that would be necessary
would be for fragments to escape from the blowout in the upper right side
of JFK's head and deflect slightly upward to pass over the windshield.
Ahem! Shooting down from the 6th floor, which is what you believe,
could not send a bullet over to Tague without changing the angle
dramatically, and after hitting JFK it would have slowed considerably.
You seem to be assuming that it was a missed shot that went directly over
to Tague and never hit JFK. Because if it hit JFK, then you're back in
the barrel with needing a hole on the left side of JFK's head.
Diagram it for us.
The HSCA diagram shows an intact bullet exiting the head on a downward
trajectory.
http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/Photo_hsca_ex_65.jpg
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Your poor reading comprehension comes through again. I said I could not
express it AS WELL as Luke Tague did so it made more sense to me to just
let him speak for himself. As someone who prefers to paraphrase the words
of others and thus change the meaning of what they said, as you have done
several times just in this post, I guess that doesn't make sense to
you.
Chris
BOZ
2018-05-06 00:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"? Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Chris
CHRIS, YOU HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
mainframetech
2018-05-06 23:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BOZ
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"? Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Chris
CHRIS, YOU HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Sure I do...:)

Chris
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-06 19:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
"Head shot that flew over the windshield"? Have you lost your mind?
The head of JFK was sitting down in the back seat of the limo, and far
below the level of the windshield and the surrounding metal. How do you
suppose a bullet fragment went from the head all the way over to Tague?
Ken Rahn and Larry Sturdivan are working on that theory.
Post by mainframetech
And knowing your beliefs, you think the bullet originated at the 6th floor
of the TSBD and must have hit the rear of the head. Tell me which hole on
the LEFT side of the head of JFK did the fragment leave through to head
for Tague?
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Can't figure out how to express it, eh? Why not just copy the info
here, and give out the info on the author?
Chris
PSY DOC
2018-05-05 01:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.

Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)

When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-06 00:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
I doubt that it was from the miss. No copper in the mark on the curb. It
appears to be unhardened lead from the core of a Carcano bullet.
bigdog
2018-05-06 00:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
It's always a red flag for me when someone either paraphrases what a
witness says or quotes the witness out of context. This is the pertinent
part of his testimony regarding which shot hit him:

Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate 12
to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is that
right?
Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission
Exhibit No. 354.
Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any
connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second
or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I
looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to
talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy
sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is
when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit
in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot
afterwards.

So after twice saying he thought it was the second or third shot, he
stated he believed it was the second but if we look at everything he said,
he wasn't sure about that. IOW he was guessing. He even characterized his
belief as a guess. "I would guess it was either the second or third.". He
did not say he definitely thought he was hit by the second shot.
mainframetech
2018-05-06 23:27:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
It's always a red flag for me when someone either paraphrases what a
witness says or quotes the witness out of context. This is the pertinent
Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate 12
to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is that
right?
Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission
Exhibit No. 354.
Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any
connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second
or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I
looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to
talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy
sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is
when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit
in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot
afterwards.
So after twice saying he thought it was the second or third shot, he
stated he believed it was the second but if we look at everything he said,
he wasn't sure about that. IOW he was guessing. He even characterized his
belief as a guess. "I would guess it was either the second or third.". He
did not say he definitely thought he was hit by the second shot.
Careful, you might find yourself changing his words and meanings.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-08 01:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
It's always a red flag for me when someone either paraphrases what a
witness says or quotes the witness out of context. This is the pertinent
Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate 12
to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is that
right?
Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission
Exhibit No. 354.
Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any
connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second
or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I
looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to
talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy
sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is
when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit
in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot
afterwards.
So after twice saying he thought it was the second or third shot, he
stated he believed it was the second but if we look at everything he said,
he wasn't sure about that. IOW he was guessing. He even characterized his
belief as a guess. "I would guess it was either the second or third.". He
did not say he definitely thought he was hit by the second shot.
Careful, you might find yourself changing his words and meanings.
That's why I quote people directly and in context rather than putting my
spin on what they said. I allow the witnesses to speak for themselves
rather than twisting their words to fit my beliefs. You should try it some
time. On second thought, that wouldn't work very well for you.
mainframetech
2018-05-08 23:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by PSY DOC
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
James Tague, in his late-July 1964 wc-testimony (after the wc had already
started putting together its final report) stated that he could hear 3
shots, and when asked, he initially stated that he was struck with either
the 2nd or the 3rd shot that he could hear, and, that he was not struck
with the first shot.
Further in his wc-testimony, when the wc-lawyer asked him to be more
specific if it was either the 2nd or 3rd shot that wounded him, we find
out exactly why very early on and for many months the wc, instead,
initially chose to (try to) completely ignore Tague during the wc by it
never requesting his wc-testimony during its earliest witnesses
wc-testimonies - despite the wc knowing full-well the first 8-months after
the assassination that Tague was wounded during the shots. (and it was
only after the diligent, steady efforts and help during those
over-8-months later by the local dallas U.S. district attorney that
convinced the wc to ever call Tague to wc-testify)
When the wc-lawyer asked him to be more specific if it was either the 2nd
or 3rd, Mr. Tague wc-testified that he was struck on his facial right
cheek nearly concurrently with the 2nd shot that he could hear.
It's always a red flag for me when someone either paraphrases what a
witness says or quotes the witness out of context. This is the pertinent
Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate 12
to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is that
right?
Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission
Exhibit No. 354.
Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any
connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second
or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I
looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to
talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy
sheriff looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek." That is
when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit
in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot
afterwards.
So after twice saying he thought it was the second or third shot, he
stated he believed it was the second but if we look at everything he said,
he wasn't sure about that. IOW he was guessing. He even characterized his
belief as a guess. "I would guess it was either the second or third.". He
did not say he definitely thought he was hit by the second shot.
Careful, you might find yourself changing his words and meanings.
That's why I quote people directly and in context rather than putting my
spin on what they said. I allow the witnesses to speak for themselves
rather than twisting their words to fit my beliefs. You should try it some
time. On second thought, that wouldn't work very well for you.
WRONG! You are perfectly aware that I have changed only 2 person's
testimony to the OBVIOUS statement they meant, and that the hundreds of
others I have made absolutely NO CHANGE to.

Chris
BOZ
2018-05-06 00:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Tague was about 531 feet from Oswald's rifle.
JFK was about 264 feet from Oswald's rifle at Z-313.
Ricocheted about267 feet.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-07 00:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BOZ
Tague was about 531 feet from Oswald's rifle.
JFK was about 264 feet from Oswald's rifle at Z-313.
Ricocheted about267 feet.
You seem to be assuming it came from the head shot at Z-313. Have you
talked to Ken Rahn or Larry Sturdivan yet? Don't be afraid, they're both
WC defenders.
BOZ
2018-05-06 00:34:48 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
I disagree with Holland. I don't think Oswald's first shot struck the
traffic arm.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-07 00:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BOZ
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
I disagree with Holland. I don't think Oswald's first shot struck the
traffic arm.
Exactly, but I think seeing it in the scope caused the shooter to miss.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-06 00:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2016/11/hollands-magic-bullet.html
This is from Dale Myers website but it deals with the Haag father-son team
and their rebuttal of the Max Holland theory that the first shots struck
the traffic arm and deflected. While there are many excellent points
zi liked Max's theory, but he had no proof.
Post by bigdog
raised by the Haags, the only I found most interesting is the section
title Haag on Tague which can be seen by scrolling roughly 80% of the way
down the article. Luke Hague makes a compelling case that the superficial
injury to Tague's cheek was most likely caused by a lead fragment from the
head shot which flew over the windshield.
Maybe, but when? From which shot?
People keep saying that Tague said it was the first shot or the second
shot or the third shot. That really narrows it down. Not.
Post by bigdog
Prior to reading this, I had no firm opinion as to which shot caused
Tague's injury. Obviously it was not the single bullet since that was
found intact on the stretcher at Parkland. I thought it could have been
You ASSUME it was CE 399. You can't prove that it was. But we are pretty
sure it was not a direct hit by an intact Oswald bullet, because there was
no copper from the jacket in the mark on the curb.

Ken Rahn and Larry Sturdivan are working on a theory that it was a lead
fragment from the head shot, but their trajectory does not line up very
well.
Post by bigdog
either the first or third shot but leaned to it being the result of a
ricochet by the first missed shot. Haag's analysis has convinced me the
most likely explanation is a fragment from the head shot. I couldn't
possibly explain the issue as well as Luke Haag has so I invite readers to
go to the article and read it for themselves.
Haag is out of his depth.
Why didn't you post a link to his articles?
A PSY DOC
2018-05-25 01:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-25 20:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
Well, sorta, kinda:


Press Release nr00-25
Press Release · Friday, January 21, 2000

Washington, DC
Press Release
January 21, 2000 Lab Tests on Kennedy Assassination Evidence Now Complete

Washington, DC. . . A report on laboratory analyses of evidence from the
assassination of former President John F. Kennedy was released today by
the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). ( The report
follows this press release).

The evidence analyzed was Warren Commission Exhibit (CE) #567 containing
the nose portion of a bullet recovered from the limousine in which the
President was riding. The exhibit, which has been in NARA custody since
1966, consisted of five fragments: one copper and lead fragment with
adhering fibrous debris, and four smaller pieces of organic material.
Tests were made of the debris and the organic material to determine
their composition for possible relevance to the Commission's conclusion
that alleged assassin Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

In requesting such tests, the Department of Justice said that if
"alleged fiber evidence embedded in the bullet nose recovered from the
front seat of the limousine" was "consistent with the President's shirt
collar, tie, and tie liner," then there might have been a "different
trajectory than that previously identified" by the Warren Commission.
Scientists concluded from the test that the fibers were of a non-textile
origin and did not come from the clothing of John F. Kennedy, nor of
John B. Connally. The Department of Justice also had speculated that the
organic fragments might shed light on the assassination, but DNA
analysis of them proved inconclusive.

Most of the analysis was accomplished on site at NARA. Instrumental
analysis of a portion of the fibrous material was undertaken at the FBI
Laboratory (Washington, DC); histological preparations of samples taken
from the four organic fragments were processed at the Armed Forces
Institute of Pathology (Walter Reed Complex); and mitochondrial DNA
examinations of samples taken from the four organic fragments were
conducted at the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (Rockville, MD).

The final report on the investigation, entitled "Further Scientific
Examination of JFK Assassination Evidence," describes the scientific
decision-making process, summarizes the findings, and appends the
individual laboratory reports. The three investigative agencies that
cooperated on the project were the FBI Laboratory, The Armed Forces
Medical Examiner, and the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory.
The Department of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine of the Maimonides
Medical Center and the Smithsonian Center for Materials Research and
Education supplied independent participants in the testing.

For press information or a COMPLETE copy of the report, please contact
Susan Cooper of the Public Affairs Staff of the National Archives and
Records Administration at (202) 501-5526 (1/21/00 only) or at (301)
837-1700 thereafter.

00-25

Further Scientific Examination of JFK Assassination Evidence

Mary T. Baker, Smithsonian Center for Materials Research and Education

Margaret Ann T. Kelly, NARA Document Conservation Research and Testing
Laboratory

December 14, 1999

Summary:

On August 12, 1998, the National Archives and Records Administration
(NARA) announced that it was working with the John F. Kennedy
Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) to arrange for the further
scientific examination of physical evidence from the assassination of
the former president, now in the custody of NARA. That examination
process, outlined in Chapter 6, Part II, of the Final Report of the ARRB
(September 1998), and described therein as "ongoing…at the time of this
writing," is now complete.

The evidence under consideration has been Warren Commission Exhibit
(C.E.) 567, the nose portion of a bullet recovered from the front seat
of the limousine in which the President was riding. This exhibit
actually consisted of five fragments: one larger copper and lead
fragment with adhering fibrous debris, and four smaller pieces of
organic material. The specific purpose of additional scientific
examination has been to determine the composition of the adhering
fibrous material and of the smaller nonmetallic fragments.

During September 1998, a panel of experts in the areas of histology, DNA
analysis, organic materials, and fibrous trace evidence met in the
offices of the National Archives and Records Administration at College
Park, Maryland, in order to evaluate C.E. 567 and to develop and
implement an appropriate course of analysis. Participants included the
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Laboratory, The Armed Forces
Medical Examiner, The Department of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine of
the Maimonides Medical Center, the Armed Forces DNA Identification
Laboratory (AFDIL), and the Smithsonian Center for Materials Research
and Education (SCMRE).

Most of the examinations recommended by the panel were accomplished on
site at NARA. Instrumental analysis of a portion of the fibrous material
was undertaken at the FBI Laboratory (Washington, DC); histological
preparations of samples taken from the four organic fragments were
processed at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (Walter Reed
Complex); and mitochondrial DNA examinations of samples taken from the
four organic fragments were conducted at AFDIL (Rockville, MD).

The fibrous debris recovered from the bullet fragment of C.E. 567 was
determined to consist of paper fibers and unidentified proteinaceous
material of non-textile origin; and accordingly, did not originate from
the clothing of John F. Kennedy or John B. Connally.

The four smaller fragments of organic material were determined on
microscopic examination to consist of human skin and tissue, but it was
not possible to establish the precise body area of origin. DNA analyses
of these tissue fragments yielded inconclusive results; accordingly, no
comparison of the questioned human tissue with known sources is
currently possible.

Background:

In its August 1998 recommendations to ARRB regarding proposed testing of
JFK assassination evidence, NARA advocated the involvement of a
technical coordinator, independent of the FBI or other primary examining
agency, whose role would be to ensure that the contemplated examinations
were undertaken in a logical, concerted sequence. As implemented, this
function has been shared: Dr. Mary T. Baker (SCMRE) has provided expert
scientific oversight, review, and continuity to the examination process;
while the NARA Document Conservation Research and Testing Laboratory has
coordinated the associated technical record-keeping and reporting.

Scope:

This report outlines the scientific decision-making process which
evolved as a result of deliberate multi-agency collaboration and
consensus, and summarizes the results and conclusions reached as a
result of the examinations undertaken. These findings are based on the
work of the experts consulted, and do not constitute independent
opinions of NARA staff.

Specific Examinations (following):

Fibrous Trace Evidence Examination and Comparison . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

Examination of Suspected Biological Tissue and /or Organic
Material. . . . . . . . . . . . . .5

Appendices:

Participants. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7

Schedule of Testing Procedures. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9

Objects Examined . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11

Attachments (Individual Reports):

Adobe Acrobat PDF Federal Bureau of Investigation Laboratory Report of
microscopic and instrumental fiber analysis dated September 18, 1998

Adobe Acrobat PDF(Joint) Maimonides Medical Center and Armed Forces
Medical Examiner Report of histological examinations dated September 16,
1998

Adobe Acrobat PDFArmed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory Report of
mitochondrial DNA analysis dated November 2, 1999

Fibrous Trace Evidence Examination and Comparison

The bullet nose fragment recovered from the front seat of the
presidential limousine on November 22, 1963, and ultimately designated
Commission Exhibit (C.E.) 567, was apparently placed, on collection,
into a seamless metal can lined with cotton batting.

As observed during the evaluations reported here, adhering to the
surface of the lead portion and partially obscured by the copper jacket
portion of C.E. 567 bullet fragment were off-white colored fibers of
likely vegetable origin. The apparent firm adherence of these fibers to
the substrate rendered them of greater interest than the "ambient
debris" and loose fibers observed over other surfaces of this exhibit.

A review of available records indicated that the following textiles in
the vicinity of the limousine interior were likely disrupted or
perforated by bullet(s): C.E. 393 (Kennedy jacket), C.E. 394 (Kennedy
shirt), C.E. 395 (Kennedy necktie), C.E. 683 (Connally jacket), C.E. 685
(Connally shirt), and C.E. 687 (Connally trousers). No such damage to
the textile or leather component(s) of the limousine interior itself was
reported.

On microscopic examination of C.E. 567 fibers in situ, the panel
scientists agreed to the following consensus statements:

The questioned fibrous material could not be identified and
compared without removal from the substrate.

The fibrous material should be removed for further examination and
comparison.

The fibrous material could be removed and examined microscopically
on-site at NARA for preliminary characterization prior to obtaining
known samples for comparison.

Accordingly, the questioned fibrous material was removed en masse from
C.E. 567 and mounted on a glass microslide for further examination. As
initially placed on the slide, a portion of the material was observed to
appear similar to tissue-paper: a thin sheet of randomly oriented wood
pulp paper fibers. The material was then teased apart using a dissecting
needle to better distribute the fibers for microscopic identification.

An additional, distinctly different fibrous material was then noted: a
few long, slightly crimped, transparent, yellowish bundles with fibrils
which appeared "plastic-like" to some observers and
"leather/collagen-like" to others.

It was the consensus of the panel scientists that this unidentified
material, which on microscopic examination did not appear to be of
textile origin, should be referred for instrumental analysis.

Accordingly, the unidentified fibrous material was examined at the FBI
Laboratory (Washington, DC), where instrumental analysis using Fourier
Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) enabled classification of the
material as protein and its exclusion as a synthetic polymer.

A portion of the fibrous batting present in the seamless metal can of
C.E. 567 was mounted on a glass slide, and on microscopic examination
was found to be dissimilar to the fibrous materials recovered from C.E.
567 bullet nose fragment. It cannot be determined from available records
whether this particular batting was in the seamless can on original
collection of C.E. 567, but it was observed that the current batting
bears no visible trace of blood or other body fluid.

On stereomicroscopic examination of the known perforated textiles, the
panel scientists agreed to the following consensus statement:

With respect to C.E. 393 (Kennedy jacket), C.E. 394 (Kennedy
shirt), C.E. 395 (Kennedy tie), C.E. 683 (Connally jacket), C.E. 685
(Connally shirt), and C.E. 687 (Connally trousers), the materials in the
areas of perforation can be eliminated as sources of the questioned
fibers recovered from C.E. 567 bullet fragment without the need for
further sampling and microscopic comparison.

Accordingly, no samples of the known clothing articles were taken.

The fibrous debris recovered from the bullet fragment of C.E. 567 was
thus determined to consist of paper fibers and unidentified
proteinaceous material of non-textile origin, and did not originate from
the clothing of John F. Kennedy or John B. Connally.

Examination of Suspected Biological Tissue and/or Organic Material

A review of the handwritten work sheets of the U. S. House of
Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) Firearm
Examination Panel revealed that in 1978, examiners noted the presence of
"apparent beeswax" [John S. Bates, Jr.] and "what appears to be wax"
[Monty C. Lutz and Andrew M. Newquist] along with the metallic portion
of C.E. 567 bullet nose fragment.

As observed during the evaluations reported here, four fragments of
suspected biological tissue and/or organic material were present with
C.E. 567. On microscopic examination, the panel scientists agreed to the
following consensus statements:

The bio/organic material(s) cannot be identified and compared
without sampling.

The material(s) cannot be eliminated as biological tissue without
sampling.

Each of the four fragments should be sampled for further
examination and comparison.

The examination sequence should be: (1) Histology, to determine if
the material is biological tissue; and if so, whether it is human; (2a)
DNA analysis of human tissue, if present; and if successful, comparison
with known sources; and/or (2b) Instrumental analysis of organic
material of non-tissue origin, if present.

Accordingly, each of the four fragments was aseptically cut in half,
with one half referred for histological examination. The remaining half
of each fragment was aseptically cored, with the inner portion reserved
for possible DNA or instrumental analyses (pending the outcome of
histological examinations) and the remainder saved "for the future."

The four samples of bio/organic material taken for histological
examinations were re-hydrated and fixed on-site at NARA. Dr. Michael R.
Zimmerman (Maimonides Medical Center), an expert in the histological
examination of old and degraded human tissue (having undertaken field
work involving the University of Innsbruck Iceman Project and the
paleopathology of Egyptian and Aleutian mummies) provided the chemical
solutions for this initial work-up. Further processing to
paraffin-embed, section, mount, and stain the preparations was
undertaken at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (Walter Reed
Complex) at the direction of Dr. Jerry D. Spencer, Armed Forces Medical
Examiner.

On microscopic examination of the resulting histological slides, the
four nonmetallic fragments of C.E. 567 were determined to consist of
human skin and tissue in varying states of preservation, but it was not
possible to establish the precise body area of origin (e.g. scalp,
torso, limb). One of the samples was reported to include small black
non-tissue-related particles which were suggested to be ammunition
residue, but further testing of this debris was not undertaken. Another
of the samples was reported to include possible fungal or insect
fragments, but further mycological or entomological identification of
this invasion was not sought.

On microscopic examination by the panel pathologists and DNA scientists,
the unidentified proteinaceous material recovered from the bullet nose
fragment C.E. 567 was deemed unsuitable, due to its fibrous aspect, for
either histological sectioning or DNA analysis.

It was the consensus of the panel scientists that the four
fragments identified as human tissue should undergo mitochondrial DNA
examinations. The age and apparent degradation of the tissue were deemed
to likely preclude the success of nuclear DNA analyses.

With respect to mitochondrial DNA examinations, it was the
consensus of the panel scientists that the issue of obtaining known
samples for comparison, whether from the bloody clothing or from
maternally-related family members, should not be considered until after
it could be determined whether such a comparison were even possible,
based on analysis of the questioned material.

Accordingly, no samples of the known clothing articles were taken.

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) analyses of the four core samples of human
tissue were conducted at the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory
(Rockville, MD), where scientists have developed considerable expertise
in the examination of older, degraded samples (military remains).
Although mtDNA was successfully extracted and amplified from the
specimens, inconclusive sequence information was obtained for these four
core samples. Additional amplification and sequencing attempts using the
four paraffin-embedded samples remaining from the histological
examination also proved inconclusive. As a result, no comparison of the
questioned tissue with known sources is currently possible.

Participants in the Evaluation of JFK Assassination Evidence at NARA

September 1998

Baker, Dr. Mary T. Polymer Chemist, Smithsonian Center for Materials
Research and Education (SCMRE)

Blumenfeld, Ms. Laura R. Assistant General Counsel, Federal Bureau of
Investigation (FBI)

Burmeister, Mr. Steven C. Chief, Chemistry Unit, FBI Laboratory

Constance, Mr. John A. Director, Congressional Affairs, National
Archives and Records Administration (NARA)

Deedrick, Mr. Douglas W. Chief, Trace Evidence Unit, FBI Laboratory

DiZinno, Dr. Joseph A. Chief, DNA-II Unit, FBI Laboratory

Fram, Mr. Robert B. Forensic Examiner, Trace Evidence Unit, FBI Laboratory

Grover, Mr. William D. Archivist, Special Access and Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA) Staff, NARA

Hamilton, Mr. Steven L. Archives Specialist, Special Access and FOIA
Staff, NARA

Hastings, Mr. James J. Director, Textual Archives Services Division, NARA

Holland, Dr. Mitchell M. Chief, Armed Forces DNA Identification
Laboratory (AFDIL)

Kelly, Ms. Margaret Ann T. Research Chemist, Document Conservation
Laboratory, NARA

Lindsey Smith, Dr. Jenifer A. Chief, DNA-I Unit, FBI Laboratory

Nisbet, Ms. Miriam M. Special Counsel for Information Policy, Office of
General Counsel, NARA

Shycoff, Ms. Tracy J. Deputy Director, Assassination Records Review
Board (ARRB)

Sibert, Mr. Robert W. Deputy Chief, Scientific Analysis Section, FBI
Laboratory

Spencer, Dr. Jerry D. The Armed Forces Medical Examiner

Tilley, Mr. Steven D. Chief, Special Access and FOIA Staff, NARA

Tunheim, Hon. John R. U.S. District Court Judge for the District of
Minnesota; and Chair, Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB)

Zimmerman, Dr. Michael R. Director of Clinical Laboratories, Department
of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine, Maimonides Medical Center


Off-Site Examiners

Huffine, Mr. Edwin F. Chief DNA Analyst, Armed Forces DNA Identification
Laboratory (AFDIL)

Menold II, Mr. Ronald E. Forensic Chemist/Examiner, Federal Bureau of
Investigation (FBI) Laboratory

Wilson, Mr. Richard E. Supervisory DNA Analyst, AFDIL

Scientific Examination of JFK Collection Evidence Schedule of Testing
Procedures

Thursday, September 3, 1998

10 am - 4 pm

NARA Special Access and FOIA Unit: Samples taken of bio-organic
material for histology and DNA/instrumental analysis by Drs. Holland,
Smith, Spencer, and Zimmerman; fibrous material removed from bullet
fragment and mounted in Permount medium on glass microslide by Mr. Fram,
with Dr. Baker participating.



Friday, September 4, 1998

4 pm

NARA Special Access and FOIA Unit: Rehydration/fixation fluids
(histology samples) exchanged by Dr. Spencer.



Tuesday, September 8, 1998

9 am

from NARA: Dr. Spencer, NARA, and ARRB representatives deliver
histology samples to Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP)
Histology Laboratory, Walter Reed Complex. Samples placed in dedicated,
secured tissue processor for overnight paraffin embedding procedure.



Wednesday, September 9, 1998

8 am - Noon

AFIP Histology Laboratory (Walter Reed Complex): NARA and ARRB
representatives observe preparation of histological slides from paraffin
tissue blocks. NARA/ARRB representatives take possession of prepared
slides and remaining paraffin blocks for immediate return to NARA
Special Access/FOIA.

2 - 5 pm

NARA Special Access and FOIA Unit: Further microscopic examination
of fibrous material by Messrs. Deedrick and Fram, with Drs. Baker and
DiZinno participating. Sample taken from fibrous batting material and
mounted in Permount medium on microslide. Known clothing articles
examined without sampling. Examination of histological slides by Drs.
Spencer and Zimmerman, with Drs. Baker, DiZinno and Holland
participating; bio-organic samples selected for mitochondrial DNA
analysis on the basis of histological identification.

5 pm

Dr. Holland, NARA and ARRB representatives deliver selected tissue
samples for mitochondrial DNA analysis to Armed Forces DNA
Identification Laboratory (AFDIL), Rockville, MD.



Thursday, September 10, 1998

Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (Rockville, MD):
Mitochondrial DNA analysis of tissue samples begun by Mr. Huffine.



Friday, September 11, 1998

9 am

FBI Laboratory Chemistry Unit (Washington, DC): Microslide bearing
fibrous material delivered by NARA/ARRB representatives for instrumental
analysis by Mr. Menold II, with Dr. Baker participating.



Tuesday, September 15, 1998

8 am - Noon

AFIP Histology Laboratory (Walter Reed Complex): NARA and ARRB
representatives deliver prepared histological slides for further
immunochemical processing, followed by immediate return of materials to
NARA Special Access/FOIA.

3 pm

NARA Special Access and FOIA Unit: Further examination of
histological slides and proteinaceous fibrous material by Drs. Spencer
and Zimmerman.

4:30 pm

NARA and ARRB representatives deliver additional tissue samples for
mitochondrial DNA analysis to AFDIL (Rockville, MD).



Tuesday, October 13, 1998

11 am

NARA and ARRB representatives deliver additional tissue samples
(paraffin blocks) to AFDIL (Rockville, MD) for mitochondrial analysis by
Mr. Wilson.


Objects Examined

C.E. = Commission Exhibit

C.E. 393 John F. Kennedy jacket

C.E. 394 John F. Kennedy shirt

C.E. 395 John F. Kennedy necktie

C.E. 567 Bullet nose fragment from front seat of presidential limousine,
bearing fibrous trace evidence; with associated fragments of suspected
biological tissue or other organic material

with C.E. 567 Seamless metal can containing fibrous batting material

C.E. 683 John B. Connally jacket

C.E. 685 John B. Connally shirt

C.E. 687 John B. Connally trousers

Referred for Instrumental Analysis

from C.E. 567 Fibrous trace evidence recovered from bullet nose fragment

Referred for Histological Examination

from C.E. 567 Samples from each of four fragments of suspected
biological tissue or other organic material: 01A, 02A, 03A, 04A

from C.E. 567 Proteinaceous fibrous trace evidence recovered from bullet
nose fragment (examined microscopically in Permount mounting medium but
not subjected to further histological processing)

Referred for Mitochondrial DNA Analysis

from C.E. 567 Samples from each of four fragments of biological tissue:
01B, 02B, 03B, 04B

from C.E. 567 Paraffin block samples of biological tissue remaining
after histological examination: 01A, 02A, 03A, 04A

This page was last reviewed on August 15, 2016.
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Jason Burke
2018-05-25 23:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
Ah, y'all will claim the results are faked, Faked, FAKED anyway.
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-26 23:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jason Burke
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
Ah, y'all will claim the results are faked, Faked, FAKED anyway.
You mean someone already claimed that when the results were released.
I missed those messages. Is that when Comcast dropped the Nuthouse?
Jason Burke
2018-05-27 23:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Jason Burke
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
Ah, y'all will claim the results are faked, Faked, FAKED anyway.
You mean someone already claimed that when the results were released.
I missed those messages. Is that when Comcast dropped the Nuthouse?
There's a lot you've missed, Anthony Anthony.
Mainly reality.
mainframetech
2018-05-25 23:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
It's doubtful that either of those 2 fragments were part of any bullet
that hit either man. Look above the windshield in the chrome bar there
and you'll see a place where a bullet slammed into the chrome. I would
suggest to you that those fragments (which came from the MC rifle) were a
miss, that hit high above the people, and fell down right below that spot
into the front seat area:

Loading Image...

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-26 23:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
It's doubtful that either of those 2 fragments were part of any bullet
that hit either man. Look above the windshield in the chrome bar there
and you'll see a place where a bullet slammed into the chrome. I would
suggest to you that those fragments (which came from the MC rifle) were a
miss, that hit high above the people, and fell down right below that spot
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Chrome_trim_Trask.jpg
And your proof for that is _________________________________________?
Anthony Marsh
2018-05-28 00:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
It's doubtful that either of those 2 fragments were part of any bullet
that hit either man. Look above the windshield in the chrome bar there
and you'll see a place where a bullet slammed into the chrome. I would
suggest to you that those fragments (which came from the MC rifle) were a
miss, that hit high above the people, and fell down right below that spot
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Chrome_trim_Trask.jpg
And your proof for that is _________________________________________?
Another problem with that solution is that if he ASSuMEs that it was a
direct hit by a whole bullet then what does he have left to hit the
windshield and ricochet back into the rearview mirror?

Neither the WC nor the HSCA ever dealt with that problem.
mainframetech
2018-05-28 20:23:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
It's doubtful that either of those 2 fragments were part of any bullet
that hit either man. Look above the windshield in the chrome bar there
and you'll see a place where a bullet slammed into the chrome. I would
suggest to you that those fragments (which came from the MC rifle) were a
miss, that hit high above the people, and fell down right below that spot
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Chrome_trim_Trask.jpg
And your proof for that is _________________________________________?
You seemed to have missed a few nuts and bolts. The proof is the photo
of the bullet strike that slammed into the chrome bar over the windshield.
Common sense and those that have experience with bullets hitting things,
and don't have a bias, can easily see that the strike in the chrome was a
primary strike, not some dinky ricochet, and since it is high above the
heads of the passengers of the limo, and supposedly came down from the
TSBD, the bullet had to miss everyone in the limo. And after striking the
chrome, it had no choice but to fall down right below where it struck, in
pieces.

That solves the riddle of the missing shot from the TSBD, though there
probably were more misses than that.

Chris
bigdog
2018-05-29 00:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
It's doubtful that either of those 2 fragments were part of any bullet
that hit either man. Look above the windshield in the chrome bar there
and you'll see a place where a bullet slammed into the chrome. I would
suggest to you that those fragments (which came from the MC rifle) were a
miss, that hit high above the people, and fell down right below that spot
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Chrome_trim_Trask.jpg
And your proof for that is _________________________________________?
You seemed to have missed a few nuts and bolts. The proof is the photo
of the bullet strike that slammed into the chrome bar over the windshield.
Common sense and those that have experience with bullets hitting things,
and don't have a bias, can easily see that the strike in the chrome was a
primary strike, not some dinky ricochet, and since it is high above the
heads of the passengers of the limo, and supposedly came down from the
TSBD, the bullet had to miss everyone in the limo. And after striking the
chrome, it had no choice but to fall down right below where it struck, in
pieces.
That solves the riddle of the missing shot from the TSBD, though there
probably were more misses than that.
So you really don't have any proof, just your non-expert opinion. That
pretty much sums up your entire case for conspiracy.
mainframetech
2018-05-30 19:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
It's doubtful that either of those 2 fragments were part of any bullet
that hit either man. Look above the windshield in the chrome bar there
and you'll see a place where a bullet slammed into the chrome. I would
suggest to you that those fragments (which came from the MC rifle) were a
miss, that hit high above the people, and fell down right below that spot
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Chrome_trim_Trask.jpg
And your proof for that is _________________________________________?
You seemed to have missed a few nuts and bolts. The proof is the photo
of the bullet strike that slammed into the chrome bar over the windshield.
Common sense and those that have experience with bullets hitting things,
and don't have a bias, can easily see that the strike in the chrome was a
primary strike, not some dinky ricochet, and since it is high above the
heads of the passengers of the limo, and supposedly came down from the
TSBD, the bullet had to miss everyone in the limo. And after striking the
chrome, it had no choice but to fall down right below where it struck, in
pieces.
That solves the riddle of the missing shot from the TSBD, though there
probably were more misses than that.
So you really don't have any proof, just your non-expert opinion. That
pretty much sums up your entire case for conspiracy.
You wouldn't make much of a junior detective. The proof is there for
anyone with average common sense. Logical as it is, you may not
understand it.

Chris
bigdog
2018-06-01 00:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by bigdog
Post by mainframetech
Post by A PSY DOC
Has the organic residue still adhered onto the bullet(s) 2 largest
fragments found afterward (specifically, found forward of Kennedy), inside
the limousine been forensically tested for a DNA match to either Kennedy
and/or Connally, yet?
It's doubtful that either of those 2 fragments were part of any bullet
that hit either man. Look above the windshield in the chrome bar there
and you'll see a place where a bullet slammed into the chrome. I would
suggest to you that those fragments (which came from the MC rifle) were a
miss, that hit high above the people, and fell down right below that spot
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Chrome_trim_Trask.jpg
And your proof for that is _________________________________________?
You seemed to have missed a few nuts and bolts. The proof is the photo
of the bullet strike that slammed into the chrome bar over the windshield.
Common sense and those that have experience with bullets hitting things,
and don't have a bias, can easily see that the strike in the chrome was a<