Discussion:
Getting our verbs mixed up
(too old to reply)
Robert Harris
2017-06-30 03:43:37 UTC
Permalink
American Heritage dictionary:

refute |rəˈfyo͞ot|
verb [ with obj. ]
prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove: these
claims have not been convincingly refuted.
• prove that (someone) is wrong.
• deny or contradict (a statement or accusation): a spokesman totally
refuted the allegation of bias.

respond |rəˈspänd|
verb [ reporting verb ]
say something in reply: [ no obj. ] : she could not get Robert to
respond to her words | [ with clause ] : he responded that it would not
be feasible | [ with direct speech ] : “It's not part of my job,”
Belinda responded.

Over the years, the same scenario has played out many times. It goes
like this:

1. I state that no one has refuted my analysis regarding the shots
during the assassination.

2. McAdams replies, "Haw, haw, Harris say's no-one *responds* to him"

Of course, there always follows, my correction that of course people
have responded - usually with insults and unsupported blurtations.
McAdams then ignores the correction and declares that he will censor me
if I ever claim that I have been evaded, even when it is ridiculously
obvious that I have:-)

But let's consider whether I have actually been *refuted*. This should
not be confused with the much different argument (which I have never
made), that no one has proven there was not a shot at 285.

A refutation need only address the analysis I present, and answer the
critical questions better than I have.

Of course, there have been attempts. Let's review:

1. The startling noise at 285 was a siren.

Nobody supports that anymore, since not only did none of the witnesses
report a siren then, but those same witnesses told us exactly what they
*did* hear - high powered, closely spaced rifle shots at the end of the
attack.

2. The noise was a backfire

Backfires were indeed heard, all throughout the motorcade, from the
airport to Dealey, but in the numerous films provided by the DCA, we
never see anyone ducking or reacting even remotely like they did
following 285 and 313.

Furthermore, SA Greer said he felt a "concussion" from the second shot
he heard. That could only have been the shock wave of a passing bullet.

3. Greer hit the brakes, throwing the passengers forward

Greer did indeed, slow the limo, but Dr. Alvarez confirmed that the
slowdown began at about frame 300, which was *after* the limo passengers
began to react at 290-292.

I was able to corroborate Alvarez in this short video presentation. In
it, we can easily see the limo slow down, but not until after frame 300.



It is interesting BTW, that the promoters of all three of the above
theories, put the lie to those who pretended they could see no startle
responses at all:-)

Perhaps, the worst of the attempts to refute this, is the claim that it
is entirely based on my "subjective" opinion.

The evidence is empirical and measurable - from the number of degrees
that three of the passengers dropped their heads, to the empirical
proof, that the reactions all began in the same 1/6th of one second,
from 290 to 292.

Loading Image...

And that included Abraham Zapruder, who Alvarez determined, reacted at
290. It is easy to see the heavily blurred frames at that instant.

Loading Image...

Perhaps the most conclusive reactions however, are those of SA Roy
Kellerman. Kellerman reacted simultaneously with the others and
Zapruder, but in addition to ducking, he simultaneously raised his hand
to shield his ear and shrugged his shoulders upward, briefly hiding the
the collar of his shirt.

Loading Image...

Notice that he also recovered simultaneously from each of those
reactions - straightening back up, dropping his hand, and then dropping
his shoulders to their normal position. The reactions and recoveries all
took place within a single second.

And that is *exactly* what we should expect. Britannica:

"Startle reaction, also called Startle Pattern, an extremely rapid
psychophysiological response of an organism to a sudden and unexpected
stimulus such as a loud sound or a blinding flash of light. In human
beings it is characterized by involuntary bending of the limbs and a
spasmodic avoidance movement of the head. Musculature returns to normal
in less than one second"

https://www.britannica.com/topic/startle-reaction

We can see Kellerman's reactions from a different perspective in this
brief presentation:

Loading Image...




Robert Harris
Ace Kefford
2017-06-30 21:57:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Harris
refute |rəˈfyo͞ot|
verb [ with obj. ]
prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove: these
claims have not been convincingly refuted.
• prove that (someone) is wrong.
• deny or contradict (a statement or accusation): a spokesman totally
refuted the allegation of bias.
respond |rəˈspänd|
verb [ reporting verb ]
say something in reply: [ no obj. ] : she could not get Robert to
respond to her words | [ with clause ] : he responded that it would not
be feasible | [ with direct speech ] : “It's not part of my job,”
Belinda responded.
Over the years, the same scenario has played out many times. It goes
1. I state that no one has refuted my analysis regarding the shots
during the assassination.
2. McAdams replies, "Haw, haw, Harris say's no-one *responds* to him"
Of course, there always follows, my correction that of course people
have responded - usually with insults and unsupported blurtations.
McAdams then ignores the correction and declares that he will censor me
if I ever claim that I have been evaded, even when it is ridiculously
obvious that I have:-)
But let's consider whether I have actually been *refuted*. This should
not be confused with the much different argument (which I have never
made), that no one has proven there was not a shot at 285.
A refutation need only address the analysis I present, and answer the
critical questions better than I have.
1. The startling noise at 285 was a siren.
Nobody supports that anymore, since not only did none of the witnesses
report a siren then, but those same witnesses told us exactly what they
*did* hear - high powered, closely spaced rifle shots at the end of the
attack.
2. The noise was a backfire
Backfires were indeed heard, all throughout the motorcade, from the
airport to Dealey, but in the numerous films provided by the DCA, we
never see anyone ducking or reacting even remotely like they did
following 285 and 313.
Furthermore, SA Greer said he felt a "concussion" from the second shot
he heard. That could only have been the shock wave of a passing bullet.
3. Greer hit the brakes, throwing the passengers forward
Greer did indeed, slow the limo, but Dr. Alvarez confirmed that the
slowdown began at about frame 300, which was *after* the limo passengers
began to react at 290-292.
I was able to corroborate Alvarez in this short video presentation. In
it, we can easily see the limo slow down, but not until after frame 300.
http://youtu.be/HCDAg5c4x5U
It is interesting BTW, that the promoters of all three of the above
theories, put the lie to those who pretended they could see no startle
responses at all:-)
Perhaps, the worst of the attempts to refute this, is the claim that it
is entirely based on my "subjective" opinion.
The evidence is empirical and measurable - from the number of degrees
that three of the passengers dropped their heads, to the empirical
proof, that the reactions all began in the same 1/6th of one second,
from 290 to 292.
http://jfkhistory.com/simultaneous.gif
And that included Abraham Zapruder, who Alvarez determined, reacted at
290. It is easy to see the heavily blurred frames at that instant.
http://jfkhistory.com/290-291.png
Perhaps the most conclusive reactions however, are those of SA Roy
Kellerman. Kellerman reacted simultaneously with the others and
Zapruder, but in addition to ducking, he simultaneously raised his hand
to shield his ear and shrugged his shoulders upward, briefly hiding the
the collar of his shirt.
http://jfkhistory.com/shoulders.gif
Notice that he also recovered simultaneously from each of those
reactions - straightening back up, dropping his hand, and then dropping
his shoulders to their normal position. The reactions and recoveries all
took place within a single second.
"Startle reaction, also called Startle Pattern, an extremely rapid
psychophysiological response of an organism to a sudden and unexpected
stimulus such as a loud sound or a blinding flash of light. In human
beings it is characterized by involuntary bending of the limbs and a
spasmodic avoidance movement of the head. Musculature returns to normal
in less than one second"
https://www.britannica.com/topic/startle-reaction
We can see Kellerman's reactions from a different perspective in this
http://jfkhistory.com/kellerman2.gif
Robert Harris
Hal Verb?
Robert Harris
2017-07-01 20:49:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ace Kefford
Post by Robert Harris
refute |rəˈfyo͞ot|
verb [ with obj. ]
prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove: these
claims have not been convincingly refuted.
• prove that (someone) is wrong.
• deny or contradict (a statement or accusation): a spokesman totally
refuted the allegation of bias.
respond |rəˈspänd|
verb [ reporting verb ]
say something in reply: [ no obj. ] : she could not get Robert to
respond to her words | [ with clause ] : he responded that it would not
be feasible | [ with direct speech ] : “It's not part of my job,”
Belinda responded.
Over the years, the same scenario has played out many times. It goes
1. I state that no one has refuted my analysis regarding the shots
during the assassination.
2. McAdams replies, "Haw, haw, Harris say's no-one *responds* to him"
Of course, there always follows, my correction that of course people
have responded - usually with insults and unsupported blurtations.
McAdams then ignores the correction and declares that he will censor me
if I ever claim that I have been evaded, even when it is ridiculously
obvious that I have:-)
But let's consider whether I have actually been *refuted*. This should
not be confused with the much different argument (which I have never
made), that no one has proven there was not a shot at 285.
A refutation need only address the analysis I present, and answer the
critical questions better than I have.
1. The startling noise at 285 was a siren.
Nobody supports that anymore, since not only did none of the witnesses
report a siren then, but those same witnesses told us exactly what they
*did* hear - high powered, closely spaced rifle shots at the end of the
attack.
2. The noise was a backfire
Backfires were indeed heard, all throughout the motorcade, from the
airport to Dealey, but in the numerous films provided by the DCA, we
never see anyone ducking or reacting even remotely like they did
following 285 and 313.
Furthermore, SA Greer said he felt a "concussion" from the second shot
he heard. That could only have been the shock wave of a passing bullet.
3. Greer hit the brakes, throwing the passengers forward
Greer did indeed, slow the limo, but Dr. Alvarez confirmed that the
slowdown began at about frame 300, which was *after* the limo passengers
began to react at 290-292.
I was able to corroborate Alvarez in this short video presentation. In
it, we can easily see the limo slow down, but not until after frame 300.
http://youtu.be/HCDAg5c4x5U
It is interesting BTW, that the promoters of all three of the above
theories, put the lie to those who pretended they could see no startle
responses at all:-)
Perhaps, the worst of the attempts to refute this, is the claim that it
is entirely based on my "subjective" opinion.
The evidence is empirical and measurable - from the number of degrees
that three of the passengers dropped their heads, to the empirical
proof, that the reactions all began in the same 1/6th of one second,
from 290 to 292.
http://jfkhistory.com/simultaneous.gif
And that included Abraham Zapruder, who Alvarez determined, reacted at
290. It is easy to see the heavily blurred frames at that instant.
http://jfkhistory.com/290-291.png
Perhaps the most conclusive reactions however, are those of SA Roy
Kellerman. Kellerman reacted simultaneously with the others and
Zapruder, but in addition to ducking, he simultaneously raised his hand
to shield his ear and shrugged his shoulders upward, briefly hiding the
the collar of his shirt.
http://jfkhistory.com/shoulders.gif
Notice that he also recovered simultaneously from each of those
reactions - straightening back up, dropping his hand, and then dropping
his shoulders to their normal position. The reactions and recoveries all
took place within a single second.
"Startle reaction, also called Startle Pattern, an extremely rapid
psychophysiological response of an organism to a sudden and unexpected
stimulus such as a loud sound or a blinding flash of light. In human
beings it is characterized by involuntary bending of the limbs and a
spasmodic avoidance movement of the head. Musculature returns to normal
in less than one second"
https://www.britannica.com/topic/startle-reaction
We can see Kellerman's reactions from a different perspective in this
http://jfkhistory.com/kellerman2.gif
Robert Harris
Hal Verb?
What are you here for, Ace?

If you don't give a shit about this case, why don't you find a forum
about something you really are interested in?



Robert Harris
Jonny Mayer
2017-07-06 22:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Ok Bob since you are asking to be refuted (again) here goes:-

Watch the stabilised Nix film. There is a woman on the far right wearing a
tan/beige coat she is walking toward the limo steadily and without a
startle reaction until the headshot. So if there was another shot around
the time of the headshot as you claim then based on startle reactions
(speaking your language) or lack of then the extra shot must have come
after the headshot as supported by the acoustic evidence.

I've told you before that Jackie is trying to take a close look at the
neck injury when you claim she ducks. She does this as she is unable to
move JFK's arms as they are locked in position.

So take it from me because everyone else is sick of telling you.
Anthony Marsh
2017-07-08 01:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonny Mayer
Ok Bob since you are asking to be refuted (again) here goes:-
Watch the stabilised Nix film. There is a woman on the far right wearing a
tan/beige coat she is walking toward the limo steadily and without a
Lots of spectators did not react.
Post by Jonny Mayer
startle reaction until the headshot. So if there was another shot around
the time of the headshot as you claim then based on startle reactions
(speaking your language) or lack of then the extra shot must have come
after the headshot as supported by the acoustic evidence.
I think at about frame 328.
Post by Jonny Mayer
I've told you before that Jackie is trying to take a close look at the
neck injury when you claim she ducks. She does this as she is unable to
move JFK's arms as they are locked in position.
So take it from me because everyone else is sick of telling you.
Hey, he won't take it from me, for over 30 years.
Robert Harris
2017-07-16 00:51:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonny Mayer
Ok Bob since you are asking to be refuted (again) here goes:-
Please forgive me for taking so long to reply, but I usually
only follow a thread for a few days, before moving on.

Your question is a good one and deserves an answer.
Post by Jonny Mayer
Watch the stabilised Nix film. There is a woman on the far right wearing a
tan/beige coat she is walking toward the limo steadily and without a
startle reaction until the headshot. So if there was another shot around
the time of the headshot as you claim then based on startle reactions
(speaking your language) or lack of then the extra shot must have come
after the headshot as supported by the acoustic evidence.
It is true that people who were further from the President
than the limo passengers did not react the same way they did.

Oswald's rifle was tested by the HSCA, which determined that
shock waves from the weapon generated sound levels of 130
decibels within a radius of 10 feet.

But that level diminishes exponentially with distance. From
the HSCA reports:

"Since the amplitude of the shock wave diminishes as one over
the distance from the source and the amplitude of the muzzle
blast diminishes as one over the square of the distance from
the source, the relative intensity of these two sounds also
varies considerably from one listener location to another."

So, people who were 20-30 feet from the bullet's path, were
exposed to less than half the level that people within 10
feet were.
Post by Jonny Mayer
I've told you before that Jackie is trying to take a close look at the
neck injury when you claim she ducks. She does this as she is unable to
move JFK's arms as they are locked in position.
So take it from me because everyone else is sick of telling you.
And I am sick of having to refute them over and over and over
again:-)

Jackie was not looking at his neck. She was looking down and
away from her husband, because she was ducking in reaction to
the shot at 285.

Her orientation is easily seen in high quality copies of the
frames in which she drops her head.

Loading Image...

Even more conclusive is the fact that she began to duck
within the same 1/6th of one second, that the other
(surviving) limo passengers began to react - *AND*
simultaneous with Zapruder's reaction at 290-291.

http://jfkhistory.com/simultaneous.gif

But any attempt to refute the shot at 285, requires an
explanation for the reactions of Roy Kellerman, who
simultaneously ducked, raised his hand to shield his left ear
and shrugged his shoulders upward and forward - all, classis
startle responses, in perfect unison with the others.

http://jfkhistory.com/shoulders.gif

To better understand Kellerman, please watch this brief
presentation as well.

Loading Image...

Please feel free to respond.



Robert Harris
Jonny Mayer
2017-07-16 21:56:04 UTC
Permalink
I have just responded on your pointless other thread when I could of just
replied here if I'd seen it first.

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