Discussion:
Don't look now, but Roy Milton Jones' 1964 FBI interview put Oswald
(too old to reply)
donald willis
2018-06-20 19:16:47 UTC
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Don't look now, but Roy Milton Jones' 1964 FBI interview put Oswald right
back on the bus to Oak Cliff, and exoneration there

One would think that between the authors of the Warren Report and our
modern-day LN researchers, SOMEONE would have done their due diligence and
long ago eliminated Roy Milton Jones as a possibility for the "man" that
bus driver Cecil McWatters picked up "on Elm around Houston". Yet, the
Commission's Norman Redlich went for Jones hook line & sinker because
Jones said that "he had exchanged words with a woman passenger" (WR p159),
not that unusual an occurrence on a bus, when you think of it.

Quick! What's the most memorable thing that McWatters said about the
"man" in his affidavit? Yes, that "he had told me the president was shot
in the temple". First, it's highly unlikely that someone who had just
"attended the usual morning session of classes" at his high school would,
circa 12:45pm, have information re the President's wounds. Secondly,
Jones himself "advised he could not recall any conversation between the
bus driver and himself or any other person on the bus about the President
being shot in the temple He said he did not hear any person make this
remark on the bus." (FBI report 4/3/64/CE 2641)

Jones was not the man on McWatters' bus. And yet Jones does seem to have
been on a Dallas bus that day. "Jones estimated that there were about
fifteen people on the bus at this time and two police officers boarded the
bus and checked each passenger to see if any were carrying firearms....
Jones estimated the bus was held up by the police offices for about one
hour and, after they were permitted to resume, they crossed the Marsalis
Bridge...." (FBI report)

Scour McWatters' lengthy Commission testimony, but you will find NO
reference to a one-hour delay caused by a police inspection on his bus.

Certainly, Redlich must have read the passages in Jones' interview re the
President's head wound and the boarding by the police. It would seem,
then, that the highly selective Mr. Redlich simply ignored same, perhaps
because they did not fit his agenda. Had he been just a mite more
scrupulous, or at least thorough, he could have categorically eliminated
Jones as a candidate for the role of McWatters' odd passenger, whom
McWatters positively identified, in a lineup, as Oswald (With Malice,
p458). And, according to Joseph Backes, in his article "Oswald and
McWatters' Bus", if it was Oswald on the bus, he would have gotten to the
Marsalis area, near his rooming house, about... 1:20pm.

Thank you, Mr. Jones.

Time for LNers to locate another Jones, though it may be too late....

dcq
Steve BH
2018-06-21 21:46:31 UTC
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Post by donald willis
Don't look now, but Roy Milton Jones' 1964 FBI interview put Oswald right
back on the bus to Oak Cliff, and exoneration there
One would think that between the authors of the Warren Report and our
modern-day LN researchers, SOMEONE would have done their due diligence and
long ago eliminated Roy Milton Jones as a possibility for the "man" that
bus driver Cecil McWatters picked up "on Elm around Houston". Yet, the
Commission's Norman Redlich went for Jones hook line & sinker because
Jones said that "he had exchanged words with a woman passenger" (WR p159),
not that unusual an occurrence on a bus, when you think of it.
Quick! What's the most memorable thing that McWatters said about the
"man" in his affidavit? Yes, that "he had told me the president was shot
in the temple". First, it's highly unlikely that someone who had just
"attended the usual morning session of classes" at his high school would,
circa 12:45pm, have information re the President's wounds. Secondly,
Jones himself "advised he could not recall any conversation between the
bus driver and himself or any other person on the bus about the President
being shot in the temple He said he did not hear any person make this
remark on the bus." (FBI report 4/3/64/CE 2641)
Jones was not the man on McWatters' bus. And yet Jones does seem to have
been on a Dallas bus that day. "Jones estimated that there were about
fifteen people on the bus at this time and two police officers boarded the
bus and checked each passenger to see if any were carrying firearms....
Jones estimated the bus was held up by the police offices for about one
hour and, after they were permitted to resume, they crossed the Marsalis
Bridge...." (FBI report)
Scour McWatters' lengthy Commission testimony, but you will find NO
reference to a one-hour delay caused by a police inspection on his bus.
Certainly, Redlich must have read the passages in Jones' interview re the
President's head wound and the boarding by the police. It would seem,
then, that the highly selective Mr. Redlich simply ignored same, perhaps
because they did not fit his agenda. Had he been just a mite more
scrupulous, or at least thorough, he could have categorically eliminated
Jones as a candidate for the role of McWatters' odd passenger, whom
McWatters positively identified, in a lineup, as Oswald (With Malice,
p458). And, according to Joseph Backes, in his article "Oswald and
McWatters' Bus", if it was Oswald on the bus, he would have gotten to the
Marsalis area, near his rooming house, about... 1:20pm.
Thank you, Mr. Jones.
Time for LNers to locate another Jones, though it may be too late....
dcq
Roy Milton Jones, a young man still in high school and working part time,
was indeed one of the people on McWatters' bus. This, of course was not
Oswald's usual bus, which was the 22-BECKLEY bus that dropped Oswald off
almost in front of his rooming house four days a week, Mon, Tues, Wed,
Thurs after work (it had a stop on Beckley yards from the rooming house),
and picked him up there, also, on Tues, Wed, Thurs, and Friday mornings to
go to the TSBD (the bus had a stop on Houston and Elm, right at the
TSBD).

Oswald normally rode the 22-Beckley eight times a week but had never
gotten on McWatters' 30-Marsalis bus until Nov. 22.

Jones, however, LIVED NEAR THE 30-MARSALIS BUS WESTERN END OF THE LINE
(about 7 blocks away from Oswald's rooming house, west of Dealey Plaza, in
Oak Cliff). Jones took McWatters' bus several times a week. Including Nov.
22, although it pains CTs to admit it. And on Nov. 22 he wrote the bus as
usual to Marsalis in Oak Cliff, and got off there.

McWatters had never given Jones a transfer slip because Jones never needed
one, living at the Oak Cliff west end of the line, as he did. McWatters
didn't give Jones a transfer slip on Nov. 22, either. He DID give one to
Oswald, who was not on his usual bus, and got off it after only two blocks
(thereby missing the police bus search which happened later), and asked
for a transfer slip, perhaps hoping he could us it if he ran across his
usual 22-Beckley bus (thus not wasting his 23 cent fare).

When he asked for the transfer, Oswald was probably intending to get on
the right bus, his usual comfortable 8 times a week bus. But he couldn't
find it. So he took a cab, costing him a buck. We know how panicked he was
because he left a nickel tip on a 95 cent fare (that wasn't usual Oswald).
I speculate it was the first cab ride of Oswald's life. (No, he didn't go
to Parkland to see his newborn daughter-- too expensive).

Though Jones had ridden with McWatters before, McWatters didn't really
notice him until after Oswald had been captured with a 22 Nov. McWatters
bus transfer, causing McWatters to be questioned later in the day about
the man who got it, YET Jones-the-teenager (who McWatters at first thought
got the transfer) was still riding on McWatters' bus the next week.
McWatters had at first mixed the two younger men up. He bothered to find
out then who Jones was, where he lived, and so on, and told the Commission
who he was, and about his mistake. Simple enough. The man who got his
transfer was *another* young man, not Jones. Simple.

Now, the transfer in Oswald's pocket absolutely puts him on McWatters
40-Marsalis bus Nov. 22 sometimes just before 1 PM (the pre-cut transfer
time) on Nov. 22 and nowhere else on Earth. McWatters said it was only one
of two transfers he gave out that day (the other was to a woman), and that
the only transfer he gave out to a man who boarded his bus by beating on
the door (not at a bus stop) about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.

Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab. Why
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description where
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in, although a five minutes earlier (cab ride eight minutes)
would have worked just as well.
Mark
2018-06-22 23:10:26 UTC
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Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Don't look now, but Roy Milton Jones' 1964 FBI interview put Oswald right
back on the bus to Oak Cliff, and exoneration there
One would think that between the authors of the Warren Report and our
modern-day LN researchers, SOMEONE would have done their due diligence and
long ago eliminated Roy Milton Jones as a possibility for the "man" that
bus driver Cecil McWatters picked up "on Elm around Houston". Yet, the
Commission's Norman Redlich went for Jones hook line & sinker because
Jones said that "he had exchanged words with a woman passenger" (WR p159),
not that unusual an occurrence on a bus, when you think of it.
Quick! What's the most memorable thing that McWatters said about the
"man" in his affidavit? Yes, that "he had told me the president was shot
in the temple". First, it's highly unlikely that someone who had just
"attended the usual morning session of classes" at his high school would,
circa 12:45pm, have information re the President's wounds. Secondly,
Jones himself "advised he could not recall any conversation between the
bus driver and himself or any other person on the bus about the President
being shot in the temple He said he did not hear any person make this
remark on the bus." (FBI report 4/3/64/CE 2641)
Jones was not the man on McWatters' bus. And yet Jones does seem to have
been on a Dallas bus that day. "Jones estimated that there were about
fifteen people on the bus at this time and two police officers boarded the
bus and checked each passenger to see if any were carrying firearms....
Jones estimated the bus was held up by the police offices for about one
hour and, after they were permitted to resume, they crossed the Marsalis
Bridge...." (FBI report)
Scour McWatters' lengthy Commission testimony, but you will find NO
reference to a one-hour delay caused by a police inspection on his bus.
Certainly, Redlich must have read the passages in Jones' interview re the
President's head wound and the boarding by the police. It would seem,
then, that the highly selective Mr. Redlich simply ignored same, perhaps
because they did not fit his agenda. Had he been just a mite more
scrupulous, or at least thorough, he could have categorically eliminated
Jones as a candidate for the role of McWatters' odd passenger, whom
McWatters positively identified, in a lineup, as Oswald (With Malice,
p458). And, according to Joseph Backes, in his article "Oswald and
McWatters' Bus", if it was Oswald on the bus, he would have gotten to the
Marsalis area, near his rooming house, about... 1:20pm.
Thank you, Mr. Jones.
Time for LNers to locate another Jones, though it may be too late....
dcq
Roy Milton Jones, a young man still in high school and working part time,
was indeed one of the people on McWatters' bus. This, of course was not
Oswald's usual bus, which was the 22-BECKLEY bus that dropped Oswald off
almost in front of his rooming house four days a week, Mon, Tues, Wed,
Thurs after work (it had a stop on Beckley yards from the rooming house),
and picked him up there, also, on Tues, Wed, Thurs, and Friday mornings to
go to the TSBD (the bus had a stop on Houston and Elm, right at the
TSBD).
Oswald normally rode the 22-Beckley eight times a week but had never
gotten on McWatters' 30-Marsalis bus until Nov. 22.
Jones, however, LIVED NEAR THE 30-MARSALIS BUS WESTERN END OF THE LINE
(about 7 blocks away from Oswald's rooming house, west of Dealey Plaza, in
Oak Cliff). Jones took McWatters' bus several times a week. Including Nov.
22, although it pains CTs to admit it. And on Nov. 22 he wrote the bus as
usual to Marsalis in Oak Cliff, and got off there.
McWatters had never given Jones a transfer slip because Jones never needed
one, living at the Oak Cliff west end of the line, as he did. McWatters
didn't give Jones a transfer slip on Nov. 22, either. He DID give one to
Oswald, who was not on his usual bus, and got off it after only two blocks
(thereby missing the police bus search which happened later), and asked
for a transfer slip, perhaps hoping he could us it if he ran across his
usual 22-Beckley bus (thus not wasting his 23 cent fare).
When he asked for the transfer, Oswald was probably intending to get on
the right bus, his usual comfortable 8 times a week bus. But he couldn't
find it. So he took a cab, costing him a buck. We know how panicked he was
because he left a nickel tip on a 95 cent fare (that wasn't usual Oswald).
I speculate it was the first cab ride of Oswald's life. (No, he didn't go
to Parkland to see his newborn daughter-- too expensive).
Though Jones had ridden with McWatters before, McWatters didn't really
notice him until after Oswald had been captured with a 22 Nov. McWatters
bus transfer, causing McWatters to be questioned later in the day about
the man who got it, YET Jones-the-teenager (who McWatters at first thought
got the transfer) was still riding on McWatters' bus the next week.
McWatters had at first mixed the two younger men up. He bothered to find
out then who Jones was, where he lived, and so on, and told the Commission
who he was, and about his mistake. Simple enough. The man who got his
transfer was *another* young man, not Jones. Simple.
Now, the transfer in Oswald's pocket absolutely puts him on McWatters
40-Marsalis bus Nov. 22 sometimes just before 1 PM (the pre-cut transfer
time) on Nov. 22 and nowhere else on Earth. McWatters said it was only one
of two transfers he gave out that day (the other was to a woman), and that
the only transfer he gave out to a man who boarded his bus by beating on
the door (not at a bus stop) about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab. Why
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description where
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in, although a five minutes earlier (cab ride eight minutes)
would have worked just as well.
Steve, I suppose we all after getting an overview of the assassination
tend to focus on one area of the story or another. Oswald's journey from
the TSBD is not something I've focused on. I'm glad you have. I know it
took research and time. That's a great post.

Mark
bigdog
2018-06-26 14:43:21 UTC
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Post by Mark
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Don't look now, but Roy Milton Jones' 1964 FBI interview put Oswald right
back on the bus to Oak Cliff, and exoneration there
One would think that between the authors of the Warren Report and our
modern-day LN researchers, SOMEONE would have done their due diligence and
long ago eliminated Roy Milton Jones as a possibility for the "man" that
bus driver Cecil McWatters picked up "on Elm around Houston". Yet, the
Commission's Norman Redlich went for Jones hook line & sinker because
Jones said that "he had exchanged words with a woman passenger" (WR p159),
not that unusual an occurrence on a bus, when you think of it.
Quick! What's the most memorable thing that McWatters said about the
"man" in his affidavit? Yes, that "he had told me the president was shot
in the temple". First, it's highly unlikely that someone who had just
"attended the usual morning session of classes" at his high school would,
circa 12:45pm, have information re the President's wounds. Secondly,
Jones himself "advised he could not recall any conversation between the
bus driver and himself or any other person on the bus about the President
being shot in the temple He said he did not hear any person make this
remark on the bus." (FBI report 4/3/64/CE 2641)
Jones was not the man on McWatters' bus. And yet Jones does seem to have
been on a Dallas bus that day. "Jones estimated that there were about
fifteen people on the bus at this time and two police officers boarded the
bus and checked each passenger to see if any were carrying firearms....
Jones estimated the bus was held up by the police offices for about one
hour and, after they were permitted to resume, they crossed the Marsalis
Bridge...." (FBI report)
Scour McWatters' lengthy Commission testimony, but you will find NO
reference to a one-hour delay caused by a police inspection on his bus.
Certainly, Redlich must have read the passages in Jones' interview re the
President's head wound and the boarding by the police. It would seem,
then, that the highly selective Mr. Redlich simply ignored same, perhaps
because they did not fit his agenda. Had he been just a mite more
scrupulous, or at least thorough, he could have categorically eliminated
Jones as a candidate for the role of McWatters' odd passenger, whom
McWatters positively identified, in a lineup, as Oswald (With Malice,
p458). And, according to Joseph Backes, in his article "Oswald and
McWatters' Bus", if it was Oswald on the bus, he would have gotten to the
Marsalis area, near his rooming house, about... 1:20pm.
Thank you, Mr. Jones.
Time for LNers to locate another Jones, though it may be too late....
dcq
Roy Milton Jones, a young man still in high school and working part time,
was indeed one of the people on McWatters' bus. This, of course was not
Oswald's usual bus, which was the 22-BECKLEY bus that dropped Oswald off
almost in front of his rooming house four days a week, Mon, Tues, Wed,
Thurs after work (it had a stop on Beckley yards from the rooming house),
and picked him up there, also, on Tues, Wed, Thurs, and Friday mornings to
go to the TSBD (the bus had a stop on Houston and Elm, right at the
TSBD).
Oswald normally rode the 22-Beckley eight times a week but had never
gotten on McWatters' 30-Marsalis bus until Nov. 22.
Jones, however, LIVED NEAR THE 30-MARSALIS BUS WESTERN END OF THE LINE
(about 7 blocks away from Oswald's rooming house, west of Dealey Plaza, in
Oak Cliff). Jones took McWatters' bus several times a week. Including Nov.
22, although it pains CTs to admit it. And on Nov. 22 he wrote the bus as
usual to Marsalis in Oak Cliff, and got off there.
McWatters had never given Jones a transfer slip because Jones never needed
one, living at the Oak Cliff west end of the line, as he did. McWatters
didn't give Jones a transfer slip on Nov. 22, either. He DID give one to
Oswald, who was not on his usual bus, and got off it after only two blocks
(thereby missing the police bus search which happened later), and asked
for a transfer slip, perhaps hoping he could us it if he ran across his
usual 22-Beckley bus (thus not wasting his 23 cent fare).
When he asked for the transfer, Oswald was probably intending to get on
the right bus, his usual comfortable 8 times a week bus. But he couldn't
find it. So he took a cab, costing him a buck. We know how panicked he was
because he left a nickel tip on a 95 cent fare (that wasn't usual Oswald).
I speculate it was the first cab ride of Oswald's life. (No, he didn't go
to Parkland to see his newborn daughter-- too expensive).
Though Jones had ridden with McWatters before, McWatters didn't really
notice him until after Oswald had been captured with a 22 Nov. McWatters
bus transfer, causing McWatters to be questioned later in the day about
the man who got it, YET Jones-the-teenager (who McWatters at first thought
got the transfer) was still riding on McWatters' bus the next week.
McWatters had at first mixed the two younger men up. He bothered to find
out then who Jones was, where he lived, and so on, and told the Commission
who he was, and about his mistake. Simple enough. The man who got his
transfer was *another* young man, not Jones. Simple.
Now, the transfer in Oswald's pocket absolutely puts him on McWatters
40-Marsalis bus Nov. 22 sometimes just before 1 PM (the pre-cut transfer
time) on Nov. 22 and nowhere else on Earth. McWatters said it was only one
of two transfers he gave out that day (the other was to a woman), and that
the only transfer he gave out to a man who boarded his bus by beating on
the door (not at a bus stop) about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab. Why
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description where
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in, although a five minutes earlier (cab ride eight minutes)
would have worked just as well.
Steve, I suppose we all after getting an overview of the assassination
tend to focus on one area of the story or another. Oswald's journey from
the TSBD is not something I've focused on. I'm glad you have. I know it
took research and time. That's a great post.
I was going to say the same thing but you saved me the trouble. I'll just
echo your sentiments.
Steve BH
2018-06-28 23:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Don't look now, but Roy Milton Jones' 1964 FBI interview put Oswald right
back on the bus to Oak Cliff, and exoneration there
One would think that between the authors of the Warren Report and our
modern-day LN researchers, SOMEONE would have done their due diligence and
long ago eliminated Roy Milton Jones as a possibility for the "man" that
bus driver Cecil McWatters picked up "on Elm around Houston". Yet, the
Commission's Norman Redlich went for Jones hook line & sinker because
Jones said that "he had exchanged words with a woman passenger" (WR p159),
not that unusual an occurrence on a bus, when you think of it.
Quick! What's the most memorable thing that McWatters said about the
"man" in his affidavit? Yes, that "he had told me the president was shot
in the temple". First, it's highly unlikely that someone who had just
"attended the usual morning session of classes" at his high school would,
circa 12:45pm, have information re the President's wounds. Secondly,
Jones himself "advised he could not recall any conversation between the
bus driver and himself or any other person on the bus about the President
being shot in the temple He said he did not hear any person make this
remark on the bus." (FBI report 4/3/64/CE 2641)
Jones was not the man on McWatters' bus. And yet Jones does seem to have
been on a Dallas bus that day. "Jones estimated that there were about
fifteen people on the bus at this time and two police officers boarded the
bus and checked each passenger to see if any were carrying firearms....
Jones estimated the bus was held up by the police offices for about one
hour and, after they were permitted to resume, they crossed the Marsalis
Bridge...." (FBI report)
Scour McWatters' lengthy Commission testimony, but you will find NO
reference to a one-hour delay caused by a police inspection on his bus.
Certainly, Redlich must have read the passages in Jones' interview re the
President's head wound and the boarding by the police. It would seem,
then, that the highly selective Mr. Redlich simply ignored same, perhaps
because they did not fit his agenda. Had he been just a mite more
scrupulous, or at least thorough, he could have categorically eliminated
Jones as a candidate for the role of McWatters' odd passenger, whom
McWatters positively identified, in a lineup, as Oswald (With Malice,
p458). And, according to Joseph Backes, in his article "Oswald and
McWatters' Bus", if it was Oswald on the bus, he would have gotten to the
Marsalis area, near his rooming house, about... 1:20pm.
Thank you, Mr. Jones.
Time for LNers to locate another Jones, though it may be too late....
dcq
Roy Milton Jones, a young man still in high school and working part time,
was indeed one of the people on McWatters' bus. This, of course was not
Oswald's usual bus, which was the 22-BECKLEY bus that dropped Oswald off
almost in front of his rooming house four days a week, Mon, Tues, Wed,
Thurs after work (it had a stop on Beckley yards from the rooming house),
and picked him up there, also, on Tues, Wed, Thurs, and Friday mornings to
go to the TSBD (the bus had a stop on Houston and Elm, right at the
TSBD).
Oswald normally rode the 22-Beckley eight times a week but had never
gotten on McWatters' 30-Marsalis bus until Nov. 22.
Jones, however, LIVED NEAR THE 30-MARSALIS BUS WESTERN END OF THE LINE
(about 7 blocks away from Oswald's rooming house, west of Dealey Plaza, in
Oak Cliff). Jones took McWatters' bus several times a week. Including Nov.
22, although it pains CTs to admit it. And on Nov. 22 he wrote the bus as
usual to Marsalis in Oak Cliff, and got off there.
McWatters had never given Jones a transfer slip because Jones never needed
one, living at the Oak Cliff west end of the line, as he did. McWatters
didn't give Jones a transfer slip on Nov. 22, either. He DID give one to
Oswald, who was not on his usual bus, and got off it after only two blocks
(thereby missing the police bus search which happened later), and asked
for a transfer slip, perhaps hoping he could us it if he ran across his
usual 22-Beckley bus (thus not wasting his 23 cent fare).
When he asked for the transfer, Oswald was probably intending to get on
the right bus, his usual comfortable 8 times a week bus. But he couldn't
find it. So he took a cab, costing him a buck. We know how panicked he was
because he left a nickel tip on a 95 cent fare (that wasn't usual Oswald).
I speculate it was the first cab ride of Oswald's life. (No, he didn't go
to Parkland to see his newborn daughter-- too expensive).
Though Jones had ridden with McWatters before, McWatters didn't really
notice him until after Oswald had been captured with a 22 Nov. McWatters
bus transfer, causing McWatters to be questioned later in the day about
the man who got it, YET Jones-the-teenager (who McWatters at first thought
got the transfer) was still riding on McWatters' bus the next week.
McWatters had at first mixed the two younger men up. He bothered to find
out then who Jones was, where he lived, and so on, and told the Commission
who he was, and about his mistake. Simple enough. The man who got his
transfer was *another* young man, not Jones. Simple.
Now, the transfer in Oswald's pocket absolutely puts him on McWatters
40-Marsalis bus Nov. 22 sometimes just before 1 PM (the pre-cut transfer
time) on Nov. 22 and nowhere else on Earth. McWatters said it was only one
of two transfers he gave out that day (the other was to a woman), and that
the only transfer he gave out to a man who boarded his bus by beating on
the door (not at a bus stop) about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab. Why
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description where
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in, although a five minutes earlier (cab ride eight minutes)
would have worked just as well.
Steve, I suppose we all after getting an overview of the assassination
tend to focus on one area of the story or another. Oswald's journey from
the TSBD is not something I've focused on. I'm glad you have. I know it
took research and time. That's a great post.
Mark
Thanks, Mark. Of course you should take a few minutes and see the
wonderful time capsule videos of McWatters and Whaley talking about this
stuff, shortly after it happened. Whaley was killed in a taxi accident not
long after talking to the WC, so his personal words, voice, and visage are
especially rare.




Mark
2018-07-01 22:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve BH
Post by Mark
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Don't look now, but Roy Milton Jones' 1964 FBI interview put Oswald right
back on the bus to Oak Cliff, and exoneration there
One would think that between the authors of the Warren Report and our
modern-day LN researchers, SOMEONE would have done their due diligence and
long ago eliminated Roy Milton Jones as a possibility for the "man" that
bus driver Cecil McWatters picked up "on Elm around Houston". Yet, the
Commission's Norman Redlich went for Jones hook line & sinker because
Jones said that "he had exchanged words with a woman passenger" (WR p159),
not that unusual an occurrence on a bus, when you think of it.
Quick! What's the most memorable thing that McWatters said about the
"man" in his affidavit? Yes, that "he had told me the president was shot
in the temple". First, it's highly unlikely that someone who had just
"attended the usual morning session of classes" at his high school would,
circa 12:45pm, have information re the President's wounds. Secondly,
Jones himself "advised he could not recall any conversation between the
bus driver and himself or any other person on the bus about the President
being shot in the temple He said he did not hear any person make this
remark on the bus." (FBI report 4/3/64/CE 2641)
Jones was not the man on McWatters' bus. And yet Jones does seem to have
been on a Dallas bus that day. "Jones estimated that there were about
fifteen people on the bus at this time and two police officers boarded the
bus and checked each passenger to see if any were carrying firearms....
Jones estimated the bus was held up by the police offices for about one
hour and, after they were permitted to resume, they crossed the Marsalis
Bridge...." (FBI report)
Scour McWatters' lengthy Commission testimony, but you will find NO
reference to a one-hour delay caused by a police inspection on his bus.
Certainly, Redlich must have read the passages in Jones' interview re the
President's head wound and the boarding by the police. It would seem,
then, that the highly selective Mr. Redlich simply ignored same, perhaps
because they did not fit his agenda. Had he been just a mite more
scrupulous, or at least thorough, he could have categorically eliminated
Jones as a candidate for the role of McWatters' odd passenger, whom
McWatters positively identified, in a lineup, as Oswald (With Malice,
p458). And, according to Joseph Backes, in his article "Oswald and
McWatters' Bus", if it was Oswald on the bus, he would have gotten to the
Marsalis area, near his rooming house, about... 1:20pm.
Thank you, Mr. Jones.
Time for LNers to locate another Jones, though it may be too late....
dcq
Roy Milton Jones, a young man still in high school and working part time,
was indeed one of the people on McWatters' bus. This, of course was not
Oswald's usual bus, which was the 22-BECKLEY bus that dropped Oswald off
almost in front of his rooming house four days a week, Mon, Tues, Wed,
Thurs after work (it had a stop on Beckley yards from the rooming house),
and picked him up there, also, on Tues, Wed, Thurs, and Friday mornings to
go to the TSBD (the bus had a stop on Houston and Elm, right at the
TSBD).
Oswald normally rode the 22-Beckley eight times a week but had never
gotten on McWatters' 30-Marsalis bus until Nov. 22.
Jones, however, LIVED NEAR THE 30-MARSALIS BUS WESTERN END OF THE LINE
(about 7 blocks away from Oswald's rooming house, west of Dealey Plaza, in
Oak Cliff). Jones took McWatters' bus several times a week. Including Nov.
22, although it pains CTs to admit it. And on Nov. 22 he wrote the bus as
usual to Marsalis in Oak Cliff, and got off there.
McWatters had never given Jones a transfer slip because Jones never needed
one, living at the Oak Cliff west end of the line, as he did. McWatters
didn't give Jones a transfer slip on Nov. 22, either. He DID give one to
Oswald, who was not on his usual bus, and got off it after only two blocks
(thereby missing the police bus search which happened later), and asked
for a transfer slip, perhaps hoping he could us it if he ran across his
usual 22-Beckley bus (thus not wasting his 23 cent fare).
When he asked for the transfer, Oswald was probably intending to get on
the right bus, his usual comfortable 8 times a week bus. But he couldn't
find it. So he took a cab, costing him a buck. We know how panicked he was
because he left a nickel tip on a 95 cent fare (that wasn't usual Oswald).
I speculate it was the first cab ride of Oswald's life. (No, he didn't go
to Parkland to see his newborn daughter-- too expensive).
Though Jones had ridden with McWatters before, McWatters didn't really
notice him until after Oswald had been captured with a 22 Nov. McWatters
bus transfer, causing McWatters to be questioned later in the day about
the man who got it, YET Jones-the-teenager (who McWatters at first thought
got the transfer) was still riding on McWatters' bus the next week.
McWatters had at first mixed the two younger men up. He bothered to find
out then who Jones was, where he lived, and so on, and told the Commission
who he was, and about his mistake. Simple enough. The man who got his
transfer was *another* young man, not Jones. Simple.
Now, the transfer in Oswald's pocket absolutely puts him on McWatters
40-Marsalis bus Nov. 22 sometimes just before 1 PM (the pre-cut transfer
time) on Nov. 22 and nowhere else on Earth. McWatters said it was only one
of two transfers he gave out that day (the other was to a woman), and that
the only transfer he gave out to a man who boarded his bus by beating on
the door (not at a bus stop) about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab. Why
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description where
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in, although a five minutes earlier (cab ride eight minutes)
would have worked just as well.
Steve, I suppose we all after getting an overview of the assassination
tend to focus on one area of the story or another. Oswald's journey from
the TSBD is not something I've focused on. I'm glad you have. I know it
took research and time. That's a great post.
Mark
Thanks, Mark. Of course you should take a few minutes and see the
wonderful time capsule videos of McWatters and Whaley talking about this
stuff, shortly after it happened. Whaley was killed in a taxi accident not
long after talking to the WC, so his personal words, voice, and visage are
especially rare.
http://youtu.be/viQJQRljF_s
http://youtu.be/UORpPiG9QmI
I did watch, Steve, and the videos are golden oldies. I had seen one of
them before. Two hard-working men doing their best to tell the truth.
Poor Whaley, died in a traffic crash after 30-plus years on a difficult
job. (At least the conspiracy allowed him to testify to the WC before
murdering him and making it look like a traffic accident.) Mark
donald willis
2018-06-23 00:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Don't look now, but Roy Milton Jones' 1964 FBI interview put Oswald right
back on the bus to Oak Cliff, and exoneration there
One would think that between the authors of the Warren Report and our
modern-day LN researchers, SOMEONE would have done their due diligence and
long ago eliminated Roy Milton Jones as a possibility for the "man" that
bus driver Cecil McWatters picked up "on Elm around Houston". Yet, the
Commission's Norman Redlich went for Jones hook line & sinker because
Jones said that "he had exchanged words with a woman passenger" (WR p159),
not that unusual an occurrence on a bus, when you think of it.
Quick! What's the most memorable thing that McWatters said about the
"man" in his affidavit? Yes, that "he had told me the president was shot
in the temple". First, it's highly unlikely that someone who had just
"attended the usual morning session of classes" at his high school would,
circa 12:45pm, have information re the President's wounds. Secondly,
Jones himself "advised he could not recall any conversation between the
bus driver and himself or any other person on the bus about the President
being shot in the temple He said he did not hear any person make this
remark on the bus." (FBI report 4/3/64/CE 2641)
Jones was not the man on McWatters' bus. And yet Jones does seem to have
been on a Dallas bus that day. "Jones estimated that there were about
fifteen people on the bus at this time and two police officers boarded the
bus and checked each passenger to see if any were carrying firearms....
Jones estimated the bus was held up by the police offices for about one
hour and, after they were permitted to resume, they crossed the Marsalis
Bridge...." (FBI report)
Scour McWatters' lengthy Commission testimony, but you will find NO
reference to a one-hour delay caused by a police inspection on his bus.
Certainly, Redlich must have read the passages in Jones' interview re the
President's head wound and the boarding by the police. It would seem,
then, that the highly selective Mr. Redlich simply ignored same, perhaps
because they did not fit his agenda. Had he been just a mite more
scrupulous, or at least thorough, he could have categorically eliminated
Jones as a candidate for the role of McWatters' odd passenger, whom
McWatters positively identified, in a lineup, as Oswald (With Malice,
p458). And, according to Joseph Backes, in his article "Oswald and
McWatters' Bus", if it was Oswald on the bus, he would have gotten to the
Marsalis area, near his rooming house, about... 1:20pm.
Thank you, Mr. Jones.
Time for LNers to locate another Jones, though it may be too late....
dcq
Roy Milton Jones, a young man still in high school and working part time,
was indeed one of the people on McWatters' bus. This, of course was not
Oswald's usual bus, which was the 22-BECKLEY bus that dropped Oswald off
almost in front of his rooming house four days a week, Mon, Tues, Wed,
Thurs after work (it had a stop on Beckley yards from the rooming house),
and picked him up there, also, on Tues, Wed, Thurs, and Friday mornings to
go to the TSBD (the bus had a stop on Houston and Elm, right at the
TSBD).
Oswald normally rode the 22-Beckley eight times a week but had never
gotten on McWatters' 30-Marsalis bus until Nov. 22.
Jones, however, LIVED NEAR THE 30-MARSALIS BUS WESTERN END OF THE LINE
(about 7 blocks away from Oswald's rooming house, west of Dealey Plaza, in
Oak Cliff). Jones took McWatters' bus several times a week. Including Nov.
22, although it pains CTs to admit it. And on Nov. 22 he wrote the bus as
usual to Marsalis in Oak Cliff, and got off there.
McWatters had never given Jones a transfer slip because Jones never needed
one, living at the Oak Cliff west end of the line, as he did. McWatters
didn't give Jones a transfer slip on Nov. 22, either. He DID give one to
Oswald, who was not on his usual bus, and got off it after only two blocks
(thereby missing the police bus search which happened later), and asked
for a transfer slip, perhaps hoping he could us it if he ran across his
usual 22-Beckley bus (thus not wasting his 23 cent fare).
When he asked for the transfer, Oswald was probably intending to get on
the right bus, his usual comfortable 8 times a week bus. But he couldn't
find it. So he took a cab, costing him a buck. We know how panicked he was
because he left a nickel tip on a 95 cent fare (that wasn't usual Oswald).
I speculate it was the first cab ride of Oswald's life. (No, he didn't go
to Parkland to see his newborn daughter-- too expensive).
Though Jones had ridden with McWatters before, McWatters didn't really
notice him until after Oswald had been captured with a 22 Nov. McWatters
bus transfer, causing McWatters to be questioned later in the day about
the man who got it, YET Jones-the-teenager (who McWatters at first thought
got the transfer) was still riding on McWatters' bus the next week.
McWatters had at first mixed the two younger men up. He bothered to find
out then who Jones was, where he lived, and so on, and told the Commission
who he was, and about his mistake. Simple enough. The man who got his
transfer was *another* young man, not Jones. Simple.
Now, the transfer in Oswald's pocket absolutely puts him on McWatters
40-Marsalis bus Nov. 22 sometimes just before 1 PM (the pre-cut transfer
time) on Nov. 22 and nowhere else on Earth. McWatters said it was only one
of two transfers he gave out that day (the other was to a woman), and that
the only transfer he gave out to a man who boarded his bus by beating on
the door (not at a bus stop)
Very different account from the one given by Jones to the FBI. Nothing
about beating on the bus door. But something about... "the driver made
his last passenger pickup approx. 6 blocks before Houston St., that one
was a BLONDE-HAIRED WOMAN and the other was a dark-haired man."
McWatters, in his testimony, seems not to have known WHEN the woman got
on. You'd think he'd remember someone getting on the bus at the same time
as the crazy guy beating on the door....


about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Post by Steve BH
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
As I've said before, when I lived in L.A. and took the bus daily, I would
automatically take a transfer, just in case....
Post by Steve BH
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab.
We are TOLD that he told them. The sessions were (supposedly) not
recorded.

Why
Post by Steve BH
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description
And, don't forget, wearing two coats and an over-shirt! Good work,
Whaley! Give 'em what they want....

where
Post by Steve BH
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in
Roberts plumb forgot about that historic encounter, according to the
same-weekend reports by the officers who were there between 3 & 4!

dcw
Steve BH
2018-06-25 02:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by donald willis
Very different account from the one given by Jones to the FBI. Nothing
about beating on the bus door. But something about... "the driver made
his last passenger pickup approx. 6 blocks before Houston St., that one
was a BLONDE-HAIRED WOMAN and the other was a dark-haired man."
McWatters, in his testimony, seems not to have known WHEN the woman got
on. You'd think he'd remember someone getting on the bus at the same time
as the crazy guy beating on the door....
Not if the woman got on at a normal stop. Remember McWatters is nabbed
because of the transfers he gave both the blonde and Oswald, at 6 pm that
evening (he complained to Jones the cops kept him to 1 AM), just 5 hours
after the fact. Of course he remembers things better than Jones, who is
testifying FOUR MONTHS later. And yes, as the bus driver remembers the
mid-block pickup better than Jones does. As well as everything else that
day. Why not? You remember what you did today at noon, don't you? WHat
people said? Okay, what about four months ago?
Post by donald willis
about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Post by Steve BH
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
As I've said before, when I lived in L.A. and took the bus daily, I would
automatically take a transfer, just in case....
You take a transfer at the end of the line which is useless? I don't think
so. The whole purpose of a transfer is you can take your time riding to
the end of the line, getting off and shopping, and getting back on the
same bus without paying another fare. It makes zero sense for Jones to
ride the bus home to Oak Cliff and ask for a transfer he couldn't do
anything with.
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab.
We are TOLD that he told them. The sessions were (supposedly) not
recorded.
Okay. All the stuff we're discussing is hearsay. What McWatters said
somebody told HIM. What Jones said somebody told HIM. Etc.
Post by donald willis
Why
Post by Steve BH
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description
And, don't forget, wearing two coats and an over-shirt! Good work,
Whaley! Give 'em what they want....
Humans are not videocameras. If Whaley said Oswald was in a brown shirt
(as in fact Frazier did) you'd claim he was coached. But very few people
that day got Oswald's jacket right. Not Frazier and certainly not Jones or
Whaley. So what?
Post by donald willis
where
Post by Steve BH
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in
Roberts plumb forgot about that historic encounter, according to the
same-weekend reports by the officers who were there between 3 & 4!
Now you may as well be lying, by what you imply. You know very well it's
not a matter of Roberts forgetting anything. It's a matter of her not
being asked the right question. The cops ask her about Oswald. She doesn't
know an "Oswald." They have no photo. She knows what O.H. Lee does, but
they don't ask her about Lee or her other borders. At least she puts it
together later, and the genius cops do not.

Here is Milton Jones testimony again. It may be missing some dialogue and
detail, but again it's 4 months old and McWatters has president as he's
interviewed far sooner.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0465a.htm
donald willis
2018-06-25 18:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Very different account from the one given by Jones to the FBI. Nothing
about beating on the bus door. But something about... "the driver made
his last passenger pickup approx. 6 blocks before Houston St., that one
was a BLONDE-HAIRED WOMAN and the other was a dark-haired man."
McWatters, in his testimony, seems not to have known WHEN the woman got
on. You'd think he'd remember someone getting on the bus at the same time
as the crazy guy beating on the door....
Not if the woman got on at a normal stop.
Jones' statement is a tad ambiguous. He says "pickup", not "pickups", as
if the blonde and the man got on at the same point.

Remember McWatters is nabbed
Post by Steve BH
because of the transfers he gave both the blonde and Oswald, at 6 pm that
evening (he complained to Jones the cops kept him to 1 AM), just 5 hours
after the fact. Of course he remembers things better than Jones, who is
testifying FOUR MONTHS later.
The Jones interview was recorded in a 4/3/64 FBI letter. McWatters'
testimony was 3/12/64, also almost FOUR MONTHS later! Big difference.
Not. And if you're trying to pit McWatters' memory against Jones's,
remember that (according to the revised McWatters, testimony version),
McWatters couldn't remember his passengers' IDs THAT SAME DAY! He got
them confused, supposedly. '


And yes, as the bus driver remembers the
Post by Steve BH
mid-block pickup better than Jones does. As well as everything else that
day. Why not? You remember what you did today at noon, don't you? WHat
people said? Okay, what about four months ago?
Again, you're making a pointless point. The Jones & McW interviews were
less than a month apart!
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Post by Steve BH
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
As I've said before, when I lived in L.A. and took the bus daily, I would
automatically take a transfer, just in case....
You take a transfer at the end of the line which is useless? I don't think
so. The whole purpose of a transfer is you can take your time riding to
the end of the line, getting off and shopping, and getting back on the
same bus without paying another fare.
I used transfers to transfer from one bus line to another. I don't recall
using them the way you describe here....

It makes zero sense for Jones to
Post by Steve BH
ride the bus home to Oak Cliff and ask for a transfer he couldn't do
anything with.
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab.
We are TOLD that he told them. The sessions were (supposedly) not
recorded.
Okay. All the stuff we're discussing is hearsay. What McWatters said
somebody told HIM. What Jones said somebody told HIM. Etc.
Post by donald willis
Why
Post by Steve BH
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description
And, don't forget, wearing two coats and an over-shirt! Good work,
Whaley! Give 'em what they want....
Humans are not videocameras. If Whaley said Oswald was in a brown shirt
(as in fact Frazier did) you'd claim he was coached. But very few people
that day got Oswald's jacket right. Not Frazier and certainly not Jones or
Whaley. So what?
You misrepresent the Whaley problem by lumping it with other, more
straightforward clothing IDs. He was shown a shirt. Whaley said Oswald
was wearing it. He was shown a jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing
it. He was shown another jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing that,
too, over the first jacket! He didn't know what the hell he was
saying....
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
where
Post by Steve BH
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in
Roberts plumb forgot about that historic encounter, according to the
same-weekend reports by the officers who were there between 3 & 4!
Now you may as well be lying, by what you imply. You know very well it's
not a matter of Roberts forgetting anything. It's a matter of her not
being asked the right question. The cops ask her about Oswald. She doesn't
know an "Oswald." They have no photo.
They have better, or... see below

She knows what O.H. Lee does, but
Post by Steve BH
they don't ask her about Lee or her other borders. At least she puts it
together later, and the genius cops do not.
I think I've pointed out before that she was watching TV with the
officers, and the man in custody, whom she recognized, was her boarder.
But she somehow doesn't remember seeing the killer of the President a half
hour after the assassination! Unbelievable. But LNers have to believe
the most unbelievable things....
Post by Steve BH
Here is Milton Jones testimony again. It may be missing some dialogue and
detail, but again it's 4 months old and McWatters has president as he's
interviewed far sooner.
Again, McW was interviewed less than a MONTH earlier, which is hardly "far
sooner"! And McWatters' memory seemed to betray him the same day
(11/22/63), if you accept his testimony. (I don't.) And I think you mean
"precedence", an understandable mistake in context....

dcw
Steve BH
2018-06-28 20:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Very different account from the one given by Jones to the FBI. Nothing
about beating on the bus door. But something about... "the driver made
his last passenger pickup approx. 6 blocks before Houston St., that one
was a BLONDE-HAIRED WOMAN and the other was a dark-haired man."
McWatters, in his testimony, seems not to have known WHEN the woman got
on. You'd think he'd remember someone getting on the bus at the same time
as the crazy guy beating on the door....
Not if the woman got on at a normal stop.
Jones' statement is a tad ambiguous. He says "pickup", not "pickups", as
if the blonde and the man got on at the same point.
Remember McWatters is nabbed
Post by Steve BH
because of the transfers he gave both the blonde and Oswald, at 6 pm that
evening (he complained to Jones the cops kept him to 1 AM), just 5 hours
after the fact. Of course he remembers things better than Jones, who is
testifying FOUR MONTHS later.
The Jones interview was recorded in a 4/3/64 FBI letter. McWatters'
testimony was 3/12/64, also almost FOUR MONTHS later! Big difference.
Not. And if you're trying to pit McWatters' memory against Jones's,
remember that (according to the revised McWatters, testimony version),
McWatters couldn't remember his passengers' IDs THAT SAME DAY! He got
them confused, supposedly. '
And yes, as the bus driver remembers the
Post by Steve BH
mid-block pickup better than Jones does. As well as everything else that
day. Why not? You remember what you did today at noon, don't you? WHat
people said? Okay, what about four months ago?
Again, you're making a pointless point. The Jones & McW interviews were
less than a month apart!
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Post by Steve BH
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
As I've said before, when I lived in L.A. and took the bus daily, I would
automatically take a transfer, just in case....
You take a transfer at the end of the line which is useless? I don't think
so. The whole purpose of a transfer is you can take your time riding to
the end of the line, getting off and shopping, and getting back on the
same bus without paying another fare.
I used transfers to transfer from one bus line to another. I don't recall
using them the way you describe here....
It makes zero sense for Jones to
Post by Steve BH
ride the bus home to Oak Cliff and ask for a transfer he couldn't do
anything with.
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab.
We are TOLD that he told them. The sessions were (supposedly) not
recorded.
Okay. All the stuff we're discussing is hearsay. What McWatters said
somebody told HIM. What Jones said somebody told HIM. Etc.
Post by donald willis
Why
Post by Steve BH
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description
And, don't forget, wearing two coats and an over-shirt! Good work,
Whaley! Give 'em what they want....
Humans are not videocameras. If Whaley said Oswald was in a brown shirt
(as in fact Frazier did) you'd claim he was coached. But very few people
that day got Oswald's jacket right. Not Frazier and certainly not Jones or
Whaley. So what?
You misrepresent the Whaley problem by lumping it with other, more
straightforward clothing IDs. He was shown a shirt. Whaley said Oswald
was wearing it. He was shown a jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing
it. He was shown another jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing that,
too, over the first jacket! He didn't know what the hell he was
saying....
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
where
Post by Steve BH
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in
Roberts plumb forgot about that historic encounter, according to the
same-weekend reports by the officers who were there between 3 & 4!
Now you may as well be lying, by what you imply. You know very well it's
not a matter of Roberts forgetting anything. It's a matter of her not
being asked the right question. The cops ask her about Oswald. She doesn't
know an "Oswald." They have no photo.
They have better, or... see below
She knows what O.H. Lee does, but
Post by Steve BH
they don't ask her about Lee or her other borders. At least she puts it
together later, and the genius cops do not.
I think I've pointed out before that she was watching TV with the
officers, and the man in custody, whom she recognized, was her boarder.
But she somehow doesn't remember seeing the killer of the President a half
hour after the assassination! Unbelievable. But LNers have to believe
the most unbelievable things....
Post by Steve BH
Here is Milton Jones testimony again. It may be missing some dialogue and
detail, but again it's 4 months old and McWatters has president as he's
interviewed far sooner.
Again, McW was interviewed less than a MONTH earlier, which is hardly "far
sooner"! And McWatters' memory seemed to betray him the same day
(11/22/63), if you accept his testimony. (I don't.) And I think you mean
"precedence", an understandable mistake in context....
dcw
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory (but not his day before or day after) before he can
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.

Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
claviger
2018-06-29 20:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve BH
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory (but not his day before or day after) before he can
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Why would they need a 6 hour interview with a bus driver or taxi driver?
McWatters did ramble and talk in circles, but the DPD spoke the Texas
version of English so why such a long interview? That can wear out a
witness who wants to go home after a long day. Maybe it was to keep him
from watching TV news but still a long ordeal for the witness. They might
start changing their story just to go home and eat dinner. The DPD made so
many mistakes that day. A tornado named Oswald turned the City of Dallas
upside down.
donald willis
2018-07-01 17:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Post by Steve BH
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory (but not his day before or day after) before he can
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Why would they need a 6 hour interview with a bus driver or taxi driver?
McWatters did ramble and talk in circles, but the DPD spoke the Texas
version of English so why such a long interview? That can wear out a
witness who wants to go home after a long day. Maybe it was to keep him
from watching TV news but still a long ordeal for the witness. They might
start changing their story just to go home and eat dinner. The DPD made so
many mistakes that day. A tornado named Oswald turned the City of Dallas
upside down.
Good input here! Maybe Steve was exaggerating the number of hours. I
don't see a source cite for his info....
donald willis
2018-06-30 01:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve BH
CUT
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory
Let me just point out that the venerable Warren Report was forced to
conclude (p159), "McWatters' recollection alone was too vague to be a
basis for placing Oswald on the bus."

"Recollection... vague".

(but not his day before or day after) before he can
Post by Steve BH
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
And yet Jones remembered being on a bus with McWatters which was boarded
by cops and delayed by about an hour. I don't see where McW remembered
that. It's not in his testimony. Which may be very confused, but it is
extensive....

dcw
claviger
2018-07-01 00:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
CUT
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory
Let me just point out that the venerable Warren Report was forced to
conclude (p159), "McWatters' recollection alone was too vague to be a
basis for placing Oswald on the bus."
"Recollection... vague".
(but not his day before or day after) before he can
Post by Steve BH
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
And yet Jones remembered being on a bus with McWatters which was boarded
by cops and delayed by about an hour. I don't see where McW remembered
that. It's not in his testimony. Which may be very confused, but it is
extensive....
dcw
McWatters was confusing, but that doesn't mean LHO did not take
a short ride on that bus. Cab driver Whaley was not confused.

Oswald gave Cab 36 its checkered past; taxi to be auctioned off ...
https://www.dallasnews.com/.../20100603-Oswald-gave-Cab-36-its-checkered-2414
Jun 4, 2010 - A taxi driver for 37 years, Whaley knew how to read a fare.
... he saw a fare walking down Lamar Street whom he took to be a wino. ...
To this day, no one is sure why Oswald rode a few blocks past his rooming
house on ...
donald willis
2018-07-02 01:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
CUT
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory
Let me just point out that the venerable Warren Report was forced to
conclude (p159), "McWatters' recollection alone was too vague to be a
basis for placing Oswald on the bus."
"Recollection... vague".
(but not his day before or day after) before he can
Post by Steve BH
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
And yet Jones remembered being on a bus with McWatters which was boarded
by cops and delayed by about an hour. I don't see where McW remembered
that. It's not in his testimony. Which may be very confused, but it is
extensive....
dcw
McWatters was confusing, but that doesn't mean LHO did not take
a short ride on that bus.
No, in fact, he took a pretty long ride, to Oak Cliff.

Cab driver Whaley was not confused.

Of course he wasn't. After all, wasn't Oswald wearing his over-shirt and
TWO JACKETS, as Whaley testified! Must have been a very cold day....

dcw
Steve BH
2018-08-02 02:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by donald willis
Post by claviger
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
CUT
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory
Let me just point out that the venerable Warren Report was forced to
conclude (p159), "McWatters' recollection alone was too vague to be a
basis for placing Oswald on the bus."
"Recollection... vague".
(but not his day before or day after) before he can
Post by Steve BH
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
And yet Jones remembered being on a bus with McWatters which was boarded
by cops and delayed by about an hour. I don't see where McW remembered
that. It's not in his testimony. Which may be very confused, but it is
extensive....
dcw
McWatters was confusing, but that doesn't mean LHO did not take
a short ride on that bus.
No, in fact, he took a pretty long ride, to Oak Cliff.
Cab driver Whaley was not confused.
Of course he wasn't. After all, wasn't Oswald wearing his over-shirt and
TWO JACKETS, as Whaley testified! Must have been a very cold day....
dcw
You have to throw out testimony of Roberts, Whaley, Jones, and the half of
McWatters you don't like. Then you have to have somebody scattering brass
from Oswald's pistol around Tippit, (after shooting Tippit with revolver
bullets), even as Oswald is still getting off the bus a mile away. Then
throwing Oswald's jacket under a nearby car, complete with fibers from the
shirt Oswald is arrested in, half an hour later. And you then need to get
Oswald, far later to his room than the Warren clock, to Brewer's shoe
store with the speed of The Flash, since he saunters in as the Tippit
sirens are going off and the McWatters bus arrives at Oak Cliff, about
1:30, with Oswald still having to go to this rooming house 9 blocks away,
THEN get downtown to the shoe store. Hey, maybe Ruby picked him up and
drove him.

"Get out here, Lee".
"But there's sirens, it's hot!"
"I said get out. See a movie"
donald willis
2018-08-02 23:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Post by claviger
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
CUT
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory
Let me just point out that the venerable Warren Report was forced to
conclude (p159), "McWatters' recollection alone was too vague to be a
basis for placing Oswald on the bus."
"Recollection... vague".
(but not his day before or day after) before he can
Post by Steve BH
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
And yet Jones remembered being on a bus with McWatters which was boarded
by cops and delayed by about an hour.
Finally! Sort of. Still not addressed: Jones on ANOTHER bus, obviously.
Still no answer for THAT!


I don't see where McW remembered
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Post by claviger
Post by donald willis
that. It's not in his testimony. Which may be very confused, but it is
extensive....
dcw
McWatters was confusing, but that doesn't mean LHO did not take
a short ride on that bus.
No, in fact, he took a pretty long ride, to Oak Cliff.
Cab driver Whaley was not confused.
Of course he wasn't. After all, wasn't Oswald wearing his over-shirt and
TWO JACKETS, as Whaley testified! Must have been a very cold day....
dcw
You have to throw out testimony of Roberts
I have, several times.


, Whaley

You mean William "Oswald in two jackets & an over-shirt" Whaley? Surely
not. He was just too keen on testifying to what he THOUGHT the Commission
wanted to hear! But, of course, that was the last thing they wanted to
hear....

, Jones

Jones' FBI interview does not have to be thrown out, except perhaps by
you, if you still want to rehabilitate McWatters (after the Warren
Commission refused--based on his absurd testimony--to accept that he even
maybe saw Oswald).


, and the half of
Post by Steve BH
McWatters you don't like. Then you have to have somebody scattering brass
from Oswald's pistol around Tippit, (after shooting Tippit with revolver
bullets), even as Oswald is still getting off the bus a mile away. Then
throwing Oswald's jacket under a nearby car, complete with fibers from the
shirt Oswald is arrested in, half an hour later.
Warren Reynolds told police on 11/22/63 that he last saw the suspect
running in the opposite direction from that "jacket under a nearby car".

And the shirt may have picked up the fibers from the jacket while the two
items were in evidence....



And you then need to get
Post by Steve BH
Oswald, far later to his room than the Warren clock, to Brewer's shoe
store with the speed of The Flash, since he saunters in as the Tippit
sirens are going off and the McWatters bus arrives at Oak Cliff, about
1:30
My source said about 1:20....

, with Oswald still having to go to this rooming house 9 blocks away,
Post by Steve BH
THEN get downtown to the shoe store. Hey, maybe Ruby picked him up and
drove him.
"Get out here, Lee".
"But there's sirens, it's hot!"
"I said get out. See a movie"
Roy Jones' FBI interview destroys McWatters' ridiculous testimony, which
leaves... Oswald on the bus to Oak Cliff....

dcw
Anthony Marsh
2018-07-02 15:04:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
CUT
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory
Let me just point out that the venerable Warren Report was forced to
conclude (p159), "McWatters' recollection alone was too vague to be a
basis for placing Oswald on the bus."
"Recollection... vague".
(but not his day before or day after) before he can
Post by Steve BH
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
And yet Jones remembered being on a bus with McWatters which was boarded
by cops and delayed by about an hour. I don't see where McW remembered
that. It's not in his testimony. Which may be very confused, but it is
extensive....
dcw
McWatters was confusing, but that doesn't mean LHO did not take
a short ride on that bus. Cab driver Whaley was not confused.
Yes, exactly. Define SHORT.
Post by claviger
Oswald gave Cab 36 its checkered past; taxi to be auctioned off ...
https://www.dallasnews.com/.../20100603-Oswald-gave-Cab-36-its-checkered-2414
Jun 4, 2010 - A taxi driver for 37 years, Whaley knew how to read a fare.
... he saw a fare walking down Lamar Street whom he took to be a wino. ...
To this day, no one is sure why Oswald rode a few blocks past his rooming
house on ...
donald willis
2018-07-07 00:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
CUT
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory
Let me just point out that the venerable Warren Report was forced to
conclude (p159), "McWatters' recollection alone was too vague to be a
basis for placing Oswald on the bus."
"Recollection... vague".
Apparently, Steve couldn't answer because LNers are quite averse to
questioning the Warren Report. And he didn't want to admit that (as it
seems to be) he was wrong....

dcw
donald willis
2018-07-09 14:35:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by donald willis
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
CUT
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory
Let me just point out that the venerable Warren Report was forced to
conclude (p159), "McWatters' recollection alone was too vague to be a
basis for placing Oswald on the bus."
"Recollection... vague".
Apparently, Steve couldn't answer because LNers are quite averse to
questioning the Warren Report. And he didn't want to admit that (as it
seems to be) he was wrong....
dcw
More importantly, the Warren Report conclusion re McWatters' vague
testimony confirms my contention that Jones was NOT the man on McWatters'
bus. As indicated in McWatters' 11/22 affidavit and his same-day lineup
ID, OSWALD was indeed the man on the bus and took it all the way to
Marsalis, in Oak Cliff, clearing him of Tippit's murder. Gotta love that
WR!

dcw
donald willis
2018-08-01 03:47:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Very different account from the one given by Jones to the FBI. Nothing
about beating on the bus door. But something about... "the driver made
his last passenger pickup approx. 6 blocks before Houston St., that one
was a BLONDE-HAIRED WOMAN and the other was a dark-haired man."
McWatters, in his testimony, seems not to have known WHEN the woman got
on. You'd think he'd remember someone getting on the bus at the same time
as the crazy guy beating on the door....
Not if the woman got on at a normal stop.
Jones' statement is a tad ambiguous. He says "pickup", not "pickups", as
if the blonde and the man got on at the same point.
Remember McWatters is nabbed
Post by Steve BH
because of the transfers he gave both the blonde and Oswald, at 6 pm that
evening (he complained to Jones the cops kept him to 1 AM), just 5 hours
after the fact. Of course he remembers things better than Jones, who is
testifying FOUR MONTHS later.
The Jones interview was recorded in a 4/3/64 FBI letter. McWatters'
testimony was 3/12/64, also almost FOUR MONTHS later! Big difference.
Not. And if you're trying to pit McWatters' memory against Jones's,
remember that (according to the revised McWatters, testimony version),
McWatters couldn't remember his passengers' IDs THAT SAME DAY! He got
them confused, supposedly. '
And yes, as the bus driver remembers the
Post by Steve BH
mid-block pickup better than Jones does. As well as everything else that
day. Why not? You remember what you did today at noon, don't you? WHat
people said? Okay, what about four months ago?
Again, you're making a pointless point. The Jones & McW interviews were
less than a month apart!
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Post by Steve BH
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
As I've said before, when I lived in L.A. and took the bus daily, I would
automatically take a transfer, just in case....
You take a transfer at the end of the line which is useless? I don't think
so. The whole purpose of a transfer is you can take your time riding to
the end of the line, getting off and shopping, and getting back on the
same bus without paying another fare.
I used transfers to transfer from one bus line to another. I don't recall
using them the way you describe here....
It makes zero sense for Jones to
Post by Steve BH
ride the bus home to Oak Cliff and ask for a transfer he couldn't do
anything with.
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab.
We are TOLD that he told them. The sessions were (supposedly) not
recorded.
Okay. All the stuff we're discussing is hearsay. What McWatters said
somebody told HIM. What Jones said somebody told HIM. Etc.
Post by donald willis
Why
Post by Steve BH
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description
And, don't forget, wearing two coats and an over-shirt! Good work,
Whaley! Give 'em what they want....
Humans are not videocameras. If Whaley said Oswald was in a brown shirt
(as in fact Frazier did) you'd claim he was coached. But very few people
that day got Oswald's jacket right. Not Frazier and certainly not Jones or
Whaley. So what?
You misrepresent the Whaley problem by lumping it with other, more
straightforward clothing IDs. He was shown a shirt. Whaley said Oswald
was wearing it. He was shown a jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing
it. He was shown another jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing that,
too, over the first jacket! He didn't know what the hell he was
saying....
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
where
Post by Steve BH
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in
Roberts plumb forgot about that historic encounter, according to the
same-weekend reports by the officers who were there between 3 & 4!
Now you may as well be lying, by what you imply. You know very well it's
not a matter of Roberts forgetting anything. It's a matter of her not
being asked the right question. The cops ask her about Oswald. She doesn't
know an "Oswald." They have no photo.
They have better, or... see below
She knows what O.H. Lee does, but
Post by Steve BH
they don't ask her about Lee or her other borders. At least she puts it
together later, and the genius cops do not.
I think I've pointed out before that she was watching TV with the
officers, and the man in custody, whom she recognized, was her boarder.
But she somehow doesn't remember seeing the killer of the President a half
hour after the assassination! Unbelievable. But LNers have to believe
the most unbelievable things....
Post by Steve BH
Here is Milton Jones testimony again. It may be missing some dialogue and
detail, but again it's 4 months old and McWatters has president as he's
interviewed far sooner.
Again, McW was interviewed less than a MONTH earlier, which is hardly "far
sooner"! And McWatters' memory seemed to betray him the same day
(11/22/63), if you accept his testimony. (I don't.) And I think you mean
"precedence", an understandable mistake in context....
dcw
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory (but not his day before or day after) before he can
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
Note that both Claviger and I have called into question Steve's
conclusion. His lack of response seems to indicate agreement.

As far as remembering the "details of that day", McWatters contradicted
himself WITHIN his testimony, changing the latter from one statement to
the next! His memory seemed to evaporate within minutes....

dcw
Mark
2018-08-02 17:32:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Very different account from the one given by Jones to the FBI. Nothing
about beating on the bus door. But something about... "the driver made
his last passenger pickup approx. 6 blocks before Houston St., that one
was a BLONDE-HAIRED WOMAN and the other was a dark-haired man."
McWatters, in his testimony, seems not to have known WHEN the woman got
on. You'd think he'd remember someone getting on the bus at the same time
as the crazy guy beating on the door....
Not if the woman got on at a normal stop.
Jones' statement is a tad ambiguous. He says "pickup", not "pickups", as
if the blonde and the man got on at the same point.
Remember McWatters is nabbed
Post by Steve BH
because of the transfers he gave both the blonde and Oswald, at 6 pm that
evening (he complained to Jones the cops kept him to 1 AM), just 5 hours
after the fact. Of course he remembers things better than Jones, who is
testifying FOUR MONTHS later.
The Jones interview was recorded in a 4/3/64 FBI letter. McWatters'
testimony was 3/12/64, also almost FOUR MONTHS later! Big difference.
Not. And if you're trying to pit McWatters' memory against Jones's,
remember that (according to the revised McWatters, testimony version),
McWatters couldn't remember his passengers' IDs THAT SAME DAY! He got
them confused, supposedly. '
And yes, as the bus driver remembers the
Post by Steve BH
mid-block pickup better than Jones does. As well as everything else that
day. Why not? You remember what you did today at noon, don't you? WHat
people said? Okay, what about four months ago?
Again, you're making a pointless point. The Jones & McW interviews were
less than a month apart!
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Post by Steve BH
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
As I've said before, when I lived in L.A. and took the bus daily, I would
automatically take a transfer, just in case....
You take a transfer at the end of the line which is useless? I don't think
so. The whole purpose of a transfer is you can take your time riding to
the end of the line, getting off and shopping, and getting back on the
same bus without paying another fare.
I used transfers to transfer from one bus line to another. I don't recall
using them the way you describe here....
It makes zero sense for Jones to
Post by Steve BH
ride the bus home to Oak Cliff and ask for a transfer he couldn't do
anything with.
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab.
We are TOLD that he told them. The sessions were (supposedly) not
recorded.
Okay. All the stuff we're discussing is hearsay. What McWatters said
somebody told HIM. What Jones said somebody told HIM. Etc.
Post by donald willis
Why
Post by Steve BH
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description
And, don't forget, wearing two coats and an over-shirt! Good work,
Whaley! Give 'em what they want....
Humans are not videocameras. If Whaley said Oswald was in a brown shirt
(as in fact Frazier did) you'd claim he was coached. But very few people
that day got Oswald's jacket right. Not Frazier and certainly not Jones or
Whaley. So what?
You misrepresent the Whaley problem by lumping it with other, more
straightforward clothing IDs. He was shown a shirt. Whaley said Oswald
was wearing it. He was shown a jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing
it. He was shown another jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing that,
too, over the first jacket! He didn't know what the hell he was
saying....
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
where
Post by Steve BH
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in
Roberts plumb forgot about that historic encounter, according to the
same-weekend reports by the officers who were there between 3 & 4!
Now you may as well be lying, by what you imply. You know very well it's
not a matter of Roberts forgetting anything. It's a matter of her not
being asked the right question. The cops ask her about Oswald. She doesn't
know an "Oswald." They have no photo.
They have better, or... see below
She knows what O.H. Lee does, but
Post by Steve BH
they don't ask her about Lee or her other borders. At least she puts it
together later, and the genius cops do not.
I think I've pointed out before that she was watching TV with the
officers, and the man in custody, whom she recognized, was her boarder.
But she somehow doesn't remember seeing the killer of the President a half
hour after the assassination! Unbelievable. But LNers have to believe
the most unbelievable things....
Post by Steve BH
Here is Milton Jones testimony again. It may be missing some dialogue and
detail, but again it's 4 months old and McWatters has president as he's
interviewed far sooner.
Again, McW was interviewed less than a MONTH earlier, which is hardly "far
sooner"! And McWatters' memory seemed to betray him the same day
(11/22/63), if you accept his testimony. (I don't.) And I think you mean
"precedence", an understandable mistake in context....
dcw
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory (but not his day before or day after) before he can
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
Note that both Claviger and I have called into question Steve's
conclusion. His lack of response seems to indicate agreement.
As far as remembering the "details of that day", McWatters contradicted
himself WITHIN his testimony, changing the latter from one statement to
the next! His memory seemed to evaporate within minutes....
dcw
McWatters belongs on the cover-up list, right? Mark
donald willis
2018-08-03 13:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Very different account from the one given by Jones to the FBI. Nothing
about beating on the bus door. But something about... "the driver made
his last passenger pickup approx. 6 blocks before Houston St., that one
was a BLONDE-HAIRED WOMAN and the other was a dark-haired man."
McWatters, in his testimony, seems not to have known WHEN the woman got
on. You'd think he'd remember someone getting on the bus at the same time
as the crazy guy beating on the door....
Not if the woman got on at a normal stop.
Jones' statement is a tad ambiguous. He says "pickup", not "pickups", as
if the blonde and the man got on at the same point.
Remember McWatters is nabbed
Post by Steve BH
because of the transfers he gave both the blonde and Oswald, at 6 pm that
evening (he complained to Jones the cops kept him to 1 AM), just 5 hours
after the fact. Of course he remembers things better than Jones, who is
testifying FOUR MONTHS later.
The Jones interview was recorded in a 4/3/64 FBI letter. McWatters'
testimony was 3/12/64, also almost FOUR MONTHS later! Big difference.
Not. And if you're trying to pit McWatters' memory against Jones's,
remember that (according to the revised McWatters, testimony version),
McWatters couldn't remember his passengers' IDs THAT SAME DAY! He got
them confused, supposedly. '
And yes, as the bus driver remembers the
Post by Steve BH
mid-block pickup better than Jones does. As well as everything else that
day. Why not? You remember what you did today at noon, don't you? WHat
people said? Okay, what about four months ago?
Again, you're making a pointless point. The Jones & McW interviews were
less than a month apart!
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Post by Steve BH
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
As I've said before, when I lived in L.A. and took the bus daily, I would
automatically take a transfer, just in case....
You take a transfer at the end of the line which is useless? I don't think
so. The whole purpose of a transfer is you can take your time riding to
the end of the line, getting off and shopping, and getting back on the
same bus without paying another fare.
I used transfers to transfer from one bus line to another. I don't recall
using them the way you describe here....
It makes zero sense for Jones to
Post by Steve BH
ride the bus home to Oak Cliff and ask for a transfer he couldn't do
anything with.
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab.
We are TOLD that he told them. The sessions were (supposedly) not
recorded.
Okay. All the stuff we're discussing is hearsay. What McWatters said
somebody told HIM. What Jones said somebody told HIM. Etc.
Post by donald willis
Why
Post by Steve BH
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description
And, don't forget, wearing two coats and an over-shirt! Good work,
Whaley! Give 'em what they want....
Humans are not videocameras. If Whaley said Oswald was in a brown shirt
(as in fact Frazier did) you'd claim he was coached. But very few people
that day got Oswald's jacket right. Not Frazier and certainly not Jones or
Whaley. So what?
You misrepresent the Whaley problem by lumping it with other, more
straightforward clothing IDs. He was shown a shirt. Whaley said Oswald
was wearing it. He was shown a jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing
it. He was shown another jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing that,
too, over the first jacket! He didn't know what the hell he was
saying....
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
where
Post by Steve BH
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in
Roberts plumb forgot about that historic encounter, according to the
same-weekend reports by the officers who were there between 3 & 4!
Now you may as well be lying, by what you imply. You know very well it's
not a matter of Roberts forgetting anything. It's a matter of her not
being asked the right question. The cops ask her about Oswald. She doesn't
know an "Oswald." They have no photo.
They have better, or... see below
She knows what O.H. Lee does, but
Post by Steve BH
they don't ask her about Lee or her other borders. At least she puts it
together later, and the genius cops do not.
I think I've pointed out before that she was watching TV with the
officers, and the man in custody, whom she recognized, was her boarder.
But she somehow doesn't remember seeing the killer of the President a half
hour after the assassination! Unbelievable. But LNers have to believe
the most unbelievable things....
Post by Steve BH
Here is Milton Jones testimony again. It may be missing some dialogue and
detail, but again it's 4 months old and McWatters has president as he's
interviewed far sooner.
Again, McW was interviewed less than a MONTH earlier, which is hardly "far
sooner"! And McWatters' memory seemed to betray him the same day
(11/22/63), if you accept his testimony. (I don't.) And I think you mean
"precedence", an understandable mistake in context....
dcw
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory (but not his day before or day after) before he can
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
Note that both Claviger and I have called into question Steve's
conclusion. His lack of response seems to indicate agreement.
As far as remembering the "details of that day", McWatters contradicted
himself WITHIN his testimony, changing the latter from one statement to
the next! His memory seemed to evaporate within minutes....
dcw
McWatters belongs on the cover-up list, right? Mark
His testimony is so weird I'm not sure WHERE he belongs. I mean, he took
back his ID of Oswald. Then, he put it back on the table. But too late
to satisfy the Commission, who couldn't accept his ID/non-ID/ID. And he
seems to have gotten mixed up re which bus Jones was one that day. Now,
if he wasn't REALLY mixed up, and intentionally put him on the Oswald bus
(which Jones was not on, as I've shown, above), then.... Well, I think he
was so mixed up he finally did not know what the hell he was doing, or
what he was supposed to be doing. I don't think that he realized the
implications of testifying that Oswald got on then right off the bus on
Elm. So there have to be three categories: Conspiracy, Cover-up,
McWatters....

dcw

Anthony Marsh
2018-08-02 17:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Very different account from the one given by Jones to the FBI. Nothing
about beating on the bus door. But something about... "the driver made
his last passenger pickup approx. 6 blocks before Houston St., that one
was a BLONDE-HAIRED WOMAN and the other was a dark-haired man."
McWatters, in his testimony, seems not to have known WHEN the woman got
on. You'd think he'd remember someone getting on the bus at the same time
as the crazy guy beating on the door....
Not if the woman got on at a normal stop.
Jones' statement is a tad ambiguous. He says "pickup", not "pickups", as
if the blonde and the man got on at the same point.
Remember McWatters is nabbed
Post by Steve BH
because of the transfers he gave both the blonde and Oswald, at 6 pm that
evening (he complained to Jones the cops kept him to 1 AM), just 5 hours
after the fact. Of course he remembers things better than Jones, who is
testifying FOUR MONTHS later.
The Jones interview was recorded in a 4/3/64 FBI letter. McWatters'
testimony was 3/12/64, also almost FOUR MONTHS later! Big difference.
Not. And if you're trying to pit McWatters' memory against Jones's,
remember that (according to the revised McWatters, testimony version),
McWatters couldn't remember his passengers' IDs THAT SAME DAY! He got
them confused, supposedly. '
And yes, as the bus driver remembers the
Post by Steve BH
mid-block pickup better than Jones does. As well as everything else that
day. Why not? You remember what you did today at noon, don't you? WHat
people said? Okay, what about four months ago?
Again, you're making a pointless point. The Jones & McW interviews were
less than a month apart!
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Post by Steve BH
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
As I've said before, when I lived in L.A. and took the bus daily, I would
automatically take a transfer, just in case....
You take a transfer at the end of the line which is useless? I don't think
so. The whole purpose of a transfer is you can take your time riding to
the end of the line, getting off and shopping, and getting back on the
same bus without paying another fare.
I used transfers to transfer from one bus line to another. I don't recall
using them the way you describe here....
It makes zero sense for Jones to
Post by Steve BH
ride the bus home to Oak Cliff and ask for a transfer he couldn't do
anything with.
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab.
We are TOLD that he told them. The sessions were (supposedly) not
recorded.
Okay. All the stuff we're discussing is hearsay. What McWatters said
somebody told HIM. What Jones said somebody told HIM. Etc.
Post by donald willis
Why
Post by Steve BH
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description
And, don't forget, wearing two coats and an over-shirt! Good work,
Whaley! Give 'em what they want....
Humans are not videocameras. If Whaley said Oswald was in a brown shirt
(as in fact Frazier did) you'd claim he was coached. But very few people
that day got Oswald's jacket right. Not Frazier and certainly not Jones or
Whaley. So what?
You misrepresent the Whaley problem by lumping it with other, more
straightforward clothing IDs. He was shown a shirt. Whaley said Oswald
was wearing it. He was shown a jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing
it. He was shown another jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing that,
too, over the first jacket! He didn't know what the hell he was
saying....
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
where
Post by Steve BH
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in
Roberts plumb forgot about that historic encounter, according to the
same-weekend reports by the officers who were there between 3 & 4!
Now you may as well be lying, by what you imply. You know very well it's
not a matter of Roberts forgetting anything. It's a matter of her not
being asked the right question. The cops ask her about Oswald. She doesn't
know an "Oswald." They have no photo.
They have better, or... see below
She knows what O.H. Lee does, but
Post by Steve BH
they don't ask her about Lee or her other borders. At least she puts it
together later, and the genius cops do not.
I think I've pointed out before that she was watching TV with the
officers, and the man in custody, whom she recognized, was her boarder.
But she somehow doesn't remember seeing the killer of the President a half
hour after the assassination! Unbelievable. But LNers have to believe
the most unbelievable things....
Post by Steve BH
Here is Milton Jones testimony again. It may be missing some dialogue and
detail, but again it's 4 months old and McWatters has president as he's
interviewed far sooner.
Again, McW was interviewed less than a MONTH earlier, which is hardly "far
sooner"! And McWatters' memory seemed to betray him the same day
(11/22/63), if you accept his testimony. (I don't.) And I think you mean
"precedence", an understandable mistake in context....
dcw
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory (but not his day before or day after) before he can
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
SO, why didn't the cop shoot you in the back of the head? You must be
white. Did you see the little kid the cop pulled over and gave a "ticket"?


Post by donald willis
Note that both Claviger and I have called into question Steve's
conclusion. His lack of response seems to indicate agreement.
No one is allowed to question Steve about anything. He is protected.
Post by donald willis
As far as remembering the "details of that day", McWatters contradicted
himself WITHIN his testimony, changing the latter from one statement to
the next! His memory seemed to evaporate within minutes....
dcw
Mark
2018-08-03 13:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Very different account from the one given by Jones to the FBI. Nothing
about beating on the bus door. But something about... "the driver made
his last passenger pickup approx. 6 blocks before Houston St., that one
was a BLONDE-HAIRED WOMAN and the other was a dark-haired man."
McWatters, in his testimony, seems not to have known WHEN the woman got
on. You'd think he'd remember someone getting on the bus at the same time
as the crazy guy beating on the door....
Not if the woman got on at a normal stop.
Jones' statement is a tad ambiguous. He says "pickup", not "pickups", as
if the blonde and the man got on at the same point.
Remember McWatters is nabbed
Post by Steve BH
because of the transfers he gave both the blonde and Oswald, at 6 pm that
evening (he complained to Jones the cops kept him to 1 AM), just 5 hours
after the fact. Of course he remembers things better than Jones, who is
testifying FOUR MONTHS later.
The Jones interview was recorded in a 4/3/64 FBI letter. McWatters'
testimony was 3/12/64, also almost FOUR MONTHS later! Big difference.
Not. And if you're trying to pit McWatters' memory against Jones's,
remember that (according to the revised McWatters, testimony version),
McWatters couldn't remember his passengers' IDs THAT SAME DAY! He got
them confused, supposedly. '
And yes, as the bus driver remembers the
Post by Steve BH
mid-block pickup better than Jones does. As well as everything else that
day. Why not? You remember what you did today at noon, don't you? WHat
people said? Okay, what about four months ago?
Again, you're making a pointless point. The Jones & McW interviews were
less than a month apart!
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Post by Steve BH
going west before getting off the slow bus and asking for his transfer.
For many reasons, that could not have been Jones, the young man who
discussed where the president had been shot. It had to have been Oswald,
as he had the transfer, which was dated that day, and certainly was from
McWatters. And those facts certainly mean he didn't take McWatters bus all
the to Marsalis in Oak Cliff. Had he done so, he'd have had no reason to
ask for a bus transfer (he would have been 7 blocks from the Beckley
rooming house), and McWatters (as I understand the rules here) would have
had no reason to to give him one.
As I've said before, when I lived in L.A. and took the bus daily, I would
automatically take a transfer, just in case....
You take a transfer at the end of the line which is useless? I don't think
so. The whole purpose of a transfer is you can take your time riding to
the end of the line, getting off and shopping, and getting back on the
same bus without paying another fare.
I used transfers to transfer from one bus line to another. I don't recall
using them the way you describe here....
It makes zero sense for Jones to
Post by Steve BH
ride the bus home to Oak Cliff and ask for a transfer he couldn't do
anything with.
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Instead, Oswald took a cab. He told his questioners he took a cab.
We are TOLD that he told them. The sessions were (supposedly) not
recorded.
Okay. All the stuff we're discussing is hearsay. What McWatters said
somebody told HIM. What Jones said somebody told HIM. Etc.
Post by donald willis
Why
Post by Steve BH
not? A cabbie remembered picking up a man of his description
And, don't forget, wearing two coats and an over-shirt! Good work,
Whaley! Give 'em what they want....
Humans are not videocameras. If Whaley said Oswald was in a brown shirt
(as in fact Frazier did) you'd claim he was coached. But very few people
that day got Oswald's jacket right. Not Frazier and certainly not Jones or
Whaley. So what?
You misrepresent the Whaley problem by lumping it with other, more
straightforward clothing IDs. He was shown a shirt. Whaley said Oswald
was wearing it. He was shown a jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing
it. He was shown another jacket. Whaley said Oswald was wearing that,
too, over the first jacket! He didn't know what the hell he was
saying....
Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
where
Post by Steve BH
McWatters said the transfer-man (not Jones) got OFF the bus, and dropped
that fare in Oak Cliff about two blocks from Oswald's rooming house. And
the time was in the 15 minutes before 1 O'Clock. The time Roberts said
Oswald came in
Roberts plumb forgot about that historic encounter, according to the
same-weekend reports by the officers who were there between 3 & 4!
Now you may as well be lying, by what you imply. You know very well it's
not a matter of Roberts forgetting anything. It's a matter of her not
being asked the right question. The cops ask her about Oswald. She doesn't
know an "Oswald." They have no photo.
They have better, or... see below
She knows what O.H. Lee does, but
Post by Steve BH
they don't ask her about Lee or her other borders. At least she puts it
together later, and the genius cops do not.
I think I've pointed out before that she was watching TV with the
officers, and the man in custody, whom she recognized, was her boarder.
But she somehow doesn't remember seeing the killer of the President a half
hour after the assassination! Unbelievable. But LNers have to believe
the most unbelievable things....
Post by Steve BH
Here is Milton Jones testimony again. It may be missing some dialogue and
detail, but again it's 4 months old and McWatters has president as he's
interviewed far sooner.
Again, McW was interviewed less than a MONTH earlier, which is hardly "far
sooner"! And McWatters' memory seemed to betray him the same day
(11/22/63), if you accept his testimony. (I don't.) And I think you mean
"precedence", an understandable mistake in context....
dcw
Let me just point out that the cops interviewing McWatters for 6 hours or
more on the day of the assassination should be been enough to lock most of
it into his memory (but not his day before or day after) before he can
sleep and forget it, as we do most of our lives. He should remember what
he told the cops under stress, even after direct memory of the event is
gone. Jones doesn't have that help.
Hell, I can remember many details of most of the times a cop has pulled me
over in my life for a TRAFFIC ticket. I get one of those every few years
and that's not half as stressful as being pulled in and questioned, as
here. It doesn't MATTER if the WC questions McWatters in a separate
incident, only months later. He'll still remember some details of that day
far better than Jones will, who didn't get questioned about it by ANYBODY
until much later.
SO, why didn't the cop shoot you in the back of the head? You must be
white. Did you see the little kid the cop pulled over and gave a "ticket"?
http://youtu.be/3w12AT7n4Hk
Post by donald willis
Note that both Claviger and I have called into question Steve's
conclusion. His lack of response seems to indicate agreement.
No one is allowed to question Steve about anything. He is protected.
Steve, I think I may have told you this before. Keep one thing in mind.
A certain person on here is extremely jealous of what you found and the
publicity that followed. You, on the other hand, have handled your
situation with maturity and humbleness. In this day and age, those traits
go a long way.

Mark
donald willis
2018-06-23 00:25:23 UTC
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Post by Steve BH
Post by donald willis
Don't look now, but Roy Milton Jones' 1964 FBI interview put Oswald right
back on the bus to Oak Cliff, and exoneration there
One would think that between the authors of the Warren Report and our
modern-day LN researchers, SOMEONE would have done their due diligence and
long ago eliminated Roy Milton Jones as a possibility for the "man" that
bus driver Cecil McWatters picked up "on Elm around Houston". Yet, the
Commission's Norman Redlich went for Jones hook line & sinker because
Jones said that "he had exchanged words with a woman passenger" (WR p159),
not that unusual an occurrence on a bus, when you think of it.
Quick! What's the most memorable thing that McWatters said about the
"man" in his affidavit? Yes, that "he had told me the president was shot
in the temple". First, it's highly unlikely that someone who had just
"attended the usual morning session of classes" at his high school would,
circa 12:45pm, have information re the President's wounds. Secondly,
Jones himself "advised he could not recall any conversation between the
bus driver and himself or any other person on the bus about the President
being shot in the temple He said he did not hear any person make this
remark on the bus." (FBI report 4/3/64/CE 2641)
Jones was not the man on McWatters' bus. And yet Jones does seem to have
been on a Dallas bus that day. "Jones estimated that there were about
fifteen people on the bus at this time and two police officers boarded the
bus and checked each passenger to see if any were carrying firearms....
Jones estimated the bus was held up by the police offices for about one
hour and, after they were permitted to resume, they crossed the Marsalis
Bridge...." (FBI report)
Scour McWatters' lengthy Commission testimony, but you will find NO
reference to a one-hour delay caused by a police inspection on his bus.
Certainly, Redlich must have read the passages in Jones' interview re the
President's head wound and the boarding by the police. It would seem,
then, that the highly selective Mr. Redlich simply ignored same, perhaps
because they did not fit his agenda. Had he been just a mite more
scrupulous, or at least thorough, he could have categorically eliminated
Jones as a candidate for the role of McWatters' odd passenger, whom
McWatters positively identified, in a lineup, as Oswald (With Malice,
p458). And, according to Joseph Backes, in his article "Oswald and
McWatters' Bus", if it was Oswald on the bus, he would have gotten to the
Marsalis area, near his rooming house, about... 1:20pm.
Thank you, Mr. Jones.
Time for LNers to locate another Jones, though it may be too late....
dcq
Roy Milton Jones, a young man still in high school and working part time,
was indeed one of the people on McWatters' bus.
Although he contradicts McW, who said the "man" (in McW's affidavit)--not
"teenager"--spoke of a shot to the President's temple. Jones heard no
such thing, he said. And McW apparently never mentioned the cops boarding
his bus and delaying it for an hour, as Jones maintained in his FBI
interview. Jones was obviously on another bus, perhaps driven by McW....

This, of course was not
Post by Steve BH
Oswald's usual bus, which was the 22-BECKLEY bus that dropped Oswald off
almost in front of his rooming house four days a week, Mon, Tues, Wed,
Thurs after work (it had a stop on Beckley yards from the rooming house),
and picked him up there, also, on Tues, Wed, Thurs, and Friday mornings to
go to the TSBD (the bus had a stop on Houston and Elm, right at the
TSBD).
Oswald normally rode the 22-Beckley eight times a week but had never
gotten on McWatters' 30-Marsalis bus until Nov. 22.
Jones, however, LIVED NEAR THE 30-MARSALIS BUS WESTERN END OF THE LINE
(about 7 blocks away from Oswald's rooming house, west of Dealey Plaza, in
Oak Cliff). Jones took McWatters' bus several times a week. Including Nov.
22, although it pains CTs to admit it.
Time for LNs to feel a little pain here!

And on Nov. 22 he wrote the bus as
Post by Steve BH
usual to Marsalis in Oak Cliff, and got off there.
McWatters had never given Jones a transfer slip because Jones never needed
one, living at the Oak Cliff west end of the line, as he did. McWatters
didn't give Jones a transfer slip on Nov. 22, either. He DID give one to
Oswald, who was not on his usual bus, and got off it after only two blocks
(thereby missing the police bus search which happened later), and asked
for a transfer slip, perhaps hoping he could us it if he ran across his
usual 22-Beckley bus (thus not wasting his 23 cent fare).
When he asked for the transfer, Oswald was probably intending to get on
the right bus, his usual comfortable 8 times a week bus. But he couldn't
find it. So he took a cab, costing him a buck. We know how panicked he was
because he left a nickel tip on a 95 cent fare (that wasn't usual Oswald).
I speculate it was the first cab ride of Oswald's life. (No, he didn't go
to Parkland to see his newborn daughter-- too expensive).
Though Jones had ridden with McWatters before, McWatters didn't really
notice him until after Oswald had been captured with a 22 Nov. McWatters
bus transfer, causing McWatters to be questioned later in the day about
the man who got it, YET Jones-the-teenager (who McWatters at first thought
got the transfer) was still riding on McWatters' bus the next week.
McWatters had at first mixed the two younger men up. He bothered to find
out then who Jones was, where he lived, and so on, and told the Commission
who he was, and about his mistake. Simple enough. The man who got his
transfer was *another* young man, not Jones. Simple.
Now, the transfer in Oswald's pocket absolutely puts him on McWatters
40-Marsalis bus Nov. 22 sometimes just before 1 PM (the pre-cut transfer
time) on Nov. 22 and nowhere else on Earth. McWatters said it was only one
of two transfers he gave out that day (the other was to a woman), and that
the only transfer he gave out to a man who boarded his bus by beating on
the door (not at a bus stop) about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Very believable. A man is beating the door on McW's bus, and McW doesn't
remember him?? He doesn't take a good look at this guy?? Believable.
Hardly.

dcw
Steve BH
2018-06-25 02:26:29 UTC
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Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Roy Milton Jones, a young man still in high school and working part time,
was indeed one of the people on McWatters' bus.
Although he contradicts McW, who said the "man" (in McW's affidavit)--not
"teenager"--spoke of a shot to the President's temple. Jones heard no
such thing, he said. And McW apparently never mentioned the cops boarding
his bus and delaying it for an hour, as Jones maintained in his FBI
interview. Jones was obviously on another bus, perhaps driven by McW....
Obviously no such thing. Jones is testifying 4 months later. McWatters
probably has the better memory, being close to the event. The fact that
they remember it differently doens't mean they weren't in the same place
or one is lying. It means they are human.

If you believe Jones you believe he was NOT on another bus. It was Jones'
usual bus. He recognized McWatters as the usual driver. The two men didn't
know each other by name, but the next Monday McWatters picked up Jones and
quizzed him, and said the third man (go got off at the same time but not
the same door as the blonde, getting the only other transfer of that day,
the blonde getting the other) was probably Lee Harvey Oswald, as the cops
as grilled him about it the same day.
Post by donald willis
Post by Steve BH
Now, the transfer in Oswald's pocket absolutely puts him on McWatters
40-Marsalis bus Nov. 22 sometimes just before 1 PM (the pre-cut transfer
time) on Nov. 22 and nowhere else on Earth. McWatters said it was only one
of two transfers he gave out that day (the other was to a woman), and that
the only transfer he gave out to a man who boarded his bus by beating on
the door (not at a bus stop) about 12:40 and only rode a couple of blocks
Very believable. A man is beating the door on McW's bus, and McW doesn't
remember him?? He doesn't take a good look at this guy?? Believable.
Hardly.
The fact that he remembers him as the guy who got off early with the woman
is remarkable enough. It may not have been criminal or that severe to get
on a bus in mid block in 1963 Texas, before all our tort problems. Who
knows? The rather amazing thing is that any of Jones' memory for these
same events (guy who gets off with woman is the one of interest) coincides
with McWatters. These are just random people in the middle of the day.
Jones' general description of Oswald is very good (better than Bowers!) He
makes him too old, but that's easy to do.

Here is Milton Jones testimony again. It may be missing some dialogue and
detail, but again it's 4 months old and McWatters has president as he's
interviewed far sooner.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0465a.htm

The other remarkable thing is this blonde (who Jones later figures cannot
be Marina Oswald, as she's BLONDE) who gets the other transfer of the day
and gets off due to slow traffic, along with Oswald. She has to be the one
that Oswald is ready to defer to at the cab, according to cab driver
Whaley. She's not only in the right place at the right time, but Whaley
notices her also. IF Whaley isn't Oswald's cabbie, where does he get
bombshell blonde from? The same as Jones and McWatters have noticed gets
off at the same time? Think they were all coached into putting in a
blonde, right here in the narrative? Just for the hell of it? Whose crazy
idea was THAT, and what purpose does SHE serve?? But if not, and she is
real, then all three men were where they say they were. Same bus, same bus
stop, and at the same time. With good old chivalrous Lee, just trying to
get to his rooming house ASAP.
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