Discussion:
Dallas Morning News 11/22/63
Add Reply
claviger
2017-01-22 03:51:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Shapell


John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963


Map - Presidential Motorcade Route


NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168


If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.


Here is what happened, and how:


7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.


8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”

As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”


8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.


The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.


9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.


It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”


9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.


9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.


9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”


10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”


10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.


11:17 a.m.: Having been delayed by a spontaneous show of support from Air Force personnel, Air Force One now takes off for Dallas. During the flight JFK reviews the morning’s Intelligence Checklist. A CIA analyst has included in this report a copy of the bullfight poem that JFK recited on October 16, 1962, just after he was told about the missiles in Cuba:


Bullfight critics ranked in rows

Crowd the enormous Plaza full;

But only one is there who knows,

And he’s the man who fights the bull.


11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later



11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.


Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.


Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
slats
2017-01-23 03:46:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
This current auction is claiming he signed something at the breakfast,
which would mean the newspaper was NOT the last item he signed.

https://goldinauctions.com/John_F__Kennedy_Autographed_3_x_5
_File_Card_On_Ske-LOT28468.aspx
Anthony Marsh
2017-01-23 16:17:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.

If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.

It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.

Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
Allan G. Johnson
2018-06-09 01:38:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.


If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.

To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
bigdog
2018-06-10 17:52:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-06-11 02:09:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
What kind/type of view would Oswald have had of the back of JFK's head if
the bubble top had been on?

I'm thinking that after JFK is hit and leans to his left towards Jackie
that the angle/view from the back would be obscured.

Maybe not. Here's a fascinating (to me) photo (below) of JFK in the limo
with the bubble top on. He's sitting on the left. Look at the guy in the
middle seat.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N07/35981138031/
bigdog
2018-06-12 02:11:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
What kind/type of view would Oswald have had of the back of JFK's head if
the bubble top had been on?
I'm thinking that after JFK is hit and leans to his left towards Jackie
that the angle/view from the back would be obscured.
Maybe not. Here's a fascinating (to me) photo (below) of JFK in the limo
with the bubble top on. He's sitting on the left. Look at the guy in the
middle seat.
It looks like the jump seat on the driver's side has been folded down in
front of JFK.

The so called bubbletop was actually a six piece modular system. The
various components can be seen about one quarter of the way down this
page.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/jfk/2017/10/26/bubble-top-saved-kennedy-answers-strange-story-jfks-lincoln-limo

As configured in your photo, it doesn't look like Oswald's view of JFK
would have been obscured much. If they used the half hardtop piece, that
might have limited Oswald's view. I think the only way the bubbletop might
have saved JFK is if Oswald thought it was bullet proof and elected not to
take the shot. He would have had just seconds to decide and might have
chosen not to. Now if it was raining, the water on the bubbletop might
have also obscured the visibility some but probably not enough to make a
difference.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-13 20:02:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn???t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
??? those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that ???if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.???
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: ???Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,??? he reads, ???have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state???s electoral vote.???
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants ???Where???s Jackie? Where???s Jackie???? The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point ??? within approximately a 10 minute window ??? that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, ???To Jan White - John Kennedy.???
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. ???Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,??? he quips. ???I???m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.??? Pandemonium. ???Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear ?????? he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. ???Oh, Jack,??? she replies ???campaigning is so easy when you???re President.???
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. ???We???re going into nut country today,??? he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that ???It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you???d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there???s nothing anybody can do.???
10:40 a.m. JFK???s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he???s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine???s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
What kind/type of view would Oswald have had of the back of JFK's head if
the bubble top had been on?
I'm thinking that after JFK is hit and leans to his left towards Jackie
that the angle/view from the back would be obscured.
Maybe not. Here's a fascinating (to me) photo (below) of JFK in the limo
with the bubble top on. He's sitting on the left. Look at the guy in the
middle seat.
It looks like the jump seat on the driver's side has been folded down in
front of JFK.
The so called bubbletop was actually a six piece modular system. The
various components can be seen about one quarter of the way down this
page.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/jfk/2017/10/26/bubble-top-saved-kennedy-answers-strange-story-jfks-lincoln-limo
As configured in your photo, it doesn't look like Oswald's view of JFK
would have been obscured much. If they used the half hardtop piece, that
might have limited Oswald's view. I think the only way the bubbletop might
have saved JFK is if Oswald thought it was bullet proof and elected not to
take the shot. He would have had just seconds to decide and might have
chosen not to. Now if it was raining, the water on the bubbletop might
have also obscured the visibility some but probably not enough to make a
difference.
Depends on the angles. It might have deflected a shot. Causing a bullet
aimed a the head to go over the head.

Why do you think there was a missed shot that didn't hit anything?
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-12 12:36:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
What kind/type of view would Oswald have had of the back of JFK's head if
the bubble top had been on?
Same. The Bubbletop is CLEAR.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
I'm thinking that after JFK is hit and leans to his left towards Jackie
that the angle/view from the back would be obscured.
No.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Maybe not. Here's a fascinating (to me) photo (below) of JFK in the limo
with the bubble top on. He's sitting on the left. Look at the guy in the
middle seat.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-06-13 02:22:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
The silver/gray frame for the bubble top, as shown in the photo, clearly
obscures somewhat the view of the passengers. My suggestion is that
Oswald's view would have been somewhat obscured by that frame. His view
clearly wouldn't have been the same with the top/frame as it was without
the top on.

The photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N07/35981138031/

Second, in Dallas JFK was sitting elevated to the others. He also leaned
to the right with his arm outside of the seat as he waved to the
spectators. With the bubble top on I don't see how he could be elevated
since his head would be bumping the top. And he couldn't lean out the
seat. Lower head, more inside equals a smaller target for Oswald.

Third, the second shot by Oswald would have shattered the glass. The
passengers, especially Jackie who said she didn't know what was happening,
would have perhaps realized that either a shot had been fired or would
have ducked as the flying glass hit them. A less confused Jackie may have
pulled JFK down with her. Yes, conjecture.

Fourth, a second shot shattering the glass would have likely been seen by
the agents - in the followup car or inside - as evidence of a shot. And a
shot from behind them. That may have led them to reacting more quickly.

Sure, some conjecture but I think it's short-sighted to argue that having
the top on or off made no difference.
bigdog
2018-06-14 01:10:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
The silver/gray frame for the bubble top, as shown in the photo, clearly
obscures somewhat the view of the passengers. My suggestion is that
Oswald's view would have been somewhat obscured by that frame. His view
clearly wouldn't have been the same with the top/frame as it was without
the top on.
That frame would probably have only obscured Oswald's view for the first
shot when he was firing more vertically. Once the limo got some distance
from the TSBD Oswald's view would have been from almost directly behind.
With the bubble top on, JFK would not have been able to rest his right arm
on the side of the car which would have forced him farther inboard as we
can see in your photo. In that position, I don't think the frame would
have blocked Oswald's view from behind.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Second, in Dallas JFK was sitting elevated to the others. He also leaned
to the right with his arm outside of the seat as he waved to the
spectators. With the bubble top on I don't see how he could be elevated
since his head would be bumping the top. And he couldn't lean out the
seat. Lower head, more inside equals a smaller target for Oswald.
Farther in would work in Oswald's favor for the reasons I stated above.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Third, the second shot by Oswald would have shattered the glass. The
passengers, especially Jackie who said she didn't know what was happening,
would have perhaps realized that either a shot had been fired or would
have ducked as the flying glass hit them. A less confused Jackie may have
pulled JFK down with her. Yes, conjecture.
I don't think the bubble top was glass. I think I read it was plastic or
maybe plexiglass. Neither would shatter. Even if it were glass, it would
be auto safety glass which is designed not to shatter. Her are some
examples of auto glass hit by bullets:

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

As you can see, small spider webs form but the glass remains intact.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Fourth, a second shot shattering the glass would have likely been seen by
the agents - in the followup car or inside - as evidence of a shot. And a
shot from behind them. That may have led them to reacting more quickly.
The first shot missed so that wouldn't have given them a clue. I don't
think seeing a bullet hole in the bubble top would have been any more
alarming to them than seeing JFK suddenly raise up and bring his arms in
front of his throat.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Sure, some conjecture but I think it's short-sighted to argue that having
the top on or off made no difference.
It might have made some difference but probably not enough to prevent
Oswald from killing JFK. The only way I see it saving JFK is if Oswald
thought it was bullet proof glass and elected not to take the shot.
Allan G. Johnson
2018-06-14 02:27:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
The silver/gray frame for the bubble top, as shown in the photo, clearly
obscures somewhat the view of the passengers. My suggestion is that
Oswald's view would have been somewhat obscured by that frame. His view
clearly wouldn't have been the same with the top/frame as it was without
the top on.
Second, in Dallas JFK was sitting elevated to the others. He also leaned
to the right with his arm outside of the seat as he waved to the
spectators. With the bubble top on I don't see how he could be elevated
since his head would be bumping the top. And he couldn't lean out the
seat. Lower head, more inside equals a smaller target for Oswald.
Third, the second shot by Oswald would have shattered the glass. The
passengers, especially Jackie who said she didn't know what was happening,
would have perhaps realized that either a shot had been fired or would
have ducked as the flying glass hit them. A less confused Jackie may have
pulled JFK down with her. Yes, conjecture.
Fourth, a second shot shattering the glass would have likely been seen by
the agents - in the followup car or inside - as evidence of a shot. And a
shot from behind them. That may have led them to reacting more quickly.
Sure, some conjecture but I think it's short-sighted to argue that having
the top on or off made no difference.
Was the bubbletop glass or some kind of plastic? Either way, you are
correct that a bullet fired into the bubbletop would have been instantly
recognized as a shot and not a firecracker or backfire and that would have
influenced everyone's response and led to a different result. The
bubbletop would have made a difference (if only it kept raining, eh).
bigdog
2018-06-15 00:49:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
The silver/gray frame for the bubble top, as shown in the photo, clearly
obscures somewhat the view of the passengers. My suggestion is that
Oswald's view would have been somewhat obscured by that frame. His view
clearly wouldn't have been the same with the top/frame as it was without
the top on.
Second, in Dallas JFK was sitting elevated to the others. He also leaned
to the right with his arm outside of the seat as he waved to the
spectators. With the bubble top on I don't see how he could be elevated
since his head would be bumping the top. And he couldn't lean out the
seat. Lower head, more inside equals a smaller target for Oswald.
Third, the second shot by Oswald would have shattered the glass. The
passengers, especially Jackie who said she didn't know what was happening,
would have perhaps realized that either a shot had been fired or would
have ducked as the flying glass hit them. A less confused Jackie may have
pulled JFK down with her. Yes, conjecture.
Fourth, a second shot shattering the glass would have likely been seen by
the agents - in the followup car or inside - as evidence of a shot. And a
shot from behind them. That may have led them to reacting more quickly.
Sure, some conjecture but I think it's short-sighted to argue that having
the top on or off made no difference.
Was the bubbletop glass or some kind of plastic? Either way, you are
correct that a bullet fired into the bubbletop would have been instantly
recognized as a shot and not a firecracker or backfire and that would have
influenced everyone's response and led to a different result. The
bubbletop would have made a difference (if only it kept raining, eh).
It wouldn't have given an earlier warning for the missed shot. The second
shot which struck JFK would have left a bullet hole in the rear of the
bubbletop but JFK's reaction had given visual evidence that the loud bang
was a gun shot. I don't think there would have been any faster response
times from the SS.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-16 05:21:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
The silver/gray frame for the bubble top, as shown in the photo, clearly
obscures somewhat the view of the passengers. My suggestion is that
Oswald's view would have been somewhat obscured by that frame. His view
clearly wouldn't have been the same with the top/frame as it was without
the top on.
Second, in Dallas JFK was sitting elevated to the others. He also leaned
to the right with his arm outside of the seat as he waved to the
spectators. With the bubble top on I don't see how he could be elevated
since his head would be bumping the top. And he couldn't lean out the
seat. Lower head, more inside equals a smaller target for Oswald.
Third, the second shot by Oswald would have shattered the glass. The
passengers, especially Jackie who said she didn't know what was happening,
would have perhaps realized that either a shot had been fired or would
have ducked as the flying glass hit them. A less confused Jackie may have
pulled JFK down with her. Yes, conjecture.
Fourth, a second shot shattering the glass would have likely been seen by
the agents - in the followup car or inside - as evidence of a shot. And a
shot from behind them. That may have led them to reacting more quickly.
Sure, some conjecture but I think it's short-sighted to argue that having
the top on or off made no difference.
Was the bubbletop glass or some kind of plastic? Either way, you are
correct that a bullet fired into the bubbletop would have been instantly
recognized as a shot and not a firecracker or backfire and that would have
influenced everyone's response and led to a different result. The
bubbletop would have made a difference (if only it kept raining, eh).
It wouldn't have given an earlier warning for the missed shot. The second
Depends on how it missed.
Maybe you like Max's theory.
Post by bigdog
shot which struck JFK would have left a bullet hole in the rear of the
bubbletop but JFK's reaction had given visual evidence that the loud bang
was a gun shot. I don't think there would have been any faster response
times from the SS.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-15 13:54:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
The silver/gray frame for the bubble top, as shown in the photo, clearly
obscures somewhat the view of the passengers. My suggestion is that
Oswald's view would have been somewhat obscured by that frame. His view
clearly wouldn't have been the same with the top/frame as it was without
the top on.
Second, in Dallas JFK was sitting elevated to the others. He also leaned
to the right with his arm outside of the seat as he waved to the
spectators. With the bubble top on I don't see how he could be elevated
since his head would be bumping the top. And he couldn't lean out the
seat. Lower head, more inside equals a smaller target for Oswald.
Third, the second shot by Oswald would have shattered the glass. The
passengers, especially Jackie who said she didn't know what was happening,
would have perhaps realized that either a shot had been fired or would
have ducked as the flying glass hit them. A less confused Jackie may have
pulled JFK down with her. Yes, conjecture.
Fourth, a second shot shattering the glass would have likely been seen by
the agents - in the followup car or inside - as evidence of a shot. And a
shot from behind them. That may have led them to reacting more quickly.
Sure, some conjecture but I think it's short-sighted to argue that having
the top on or off made no difference.
Was the bubbletop glass or some kind of plastic? Either way, you are
1/4" Plexiglass.



Post by Allan G. Johnson
correct that a bullet fired into the bubbletop would have been instantly
recognized as a shot and not a firecracker or backfire and that would have
influenced everyone's response and led to a different result. The
bubbletop would have made a difference (if only it kept raining, eh).
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-14 19:17:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
The silver/gray frame for the bubble top, as shown in the photo, clearly
obscures somewhat the view of the passengers. My suggestion is that
Oswald's view would have been somewhat obscured by that frame. His view
clearly wouldn't have been the same with the top/frame as it was without
the top on.
Second, in Dallas JFK was sitting elevated to the others. He also leaned
Not sure what you mean. His seat was not raised. It was built to be 3
inches higher than the jump seats. Do you mean the shooter was actually
aiming at Connally and hit JFK by mistake?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
to the right with his arm outside of the seat as he waved to the
spectators. With the bubble top on I don't see how he could be elevated
since his head would be bumping the top. And he couldn't lean out the
Nope. Plenty of room. You just mean that he wouldn't be resting his arm
over the side of the limo. So his posture would be different. Manybe more
slouched against the back of the seat?
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
seat. Lower head, more inside equals a smaller target for Oswald.
Third, the second shot by Oswald would have shattered the glass. The
passengers, especially Jackie who said she didn't know what was happening,
would have perhaps realized that either a shot had been fired or would
have ducked as the flying glass hit them. A less confused Jackie may have
pulled JFK down with her. Yes, conjecture.
But they would know it was a shooting, not just firecrackers or a
motorcyle backfiring. Maybe the driver would hit the gas.
Not sure Hill could help.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Fourth, a second shot shattering the glass would have likely been seen by
the agents - in the followup car or inside - as evidence of a shot. And a
shot from behind them. That may have led them to reacting more quickly.
Sure, some conjecture but I think it's short-sighted to argue that having
the top on or off made no difference.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-06-13 03:15:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
What kind/type of view would Oswald have had of the back of JFK's head if
the bubble top had been on?
Same. The Bubbletop is CLEAR.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
I'm thinking that after JFK is hit and leans to his left towards Jackie
that the angle/view from the back would be obscured.
No.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Maybe not. Here's a fascinating (to me) photo (below) of JFK in the limo
with the bubble top on. He's sitting on the left. Look at the guy in the
middle seat.
The bubbletop is not clear. There is a metal (I assume) frame that blocks
some of the view.

Here's JFK in the limo with the top on:
Loading Image...

And here he is without it: Loading Image...

The differences in the view of him are clear and obvious.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-14 03:41:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn???t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
??? those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that ???if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.???
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: ???Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,??? he reads, ???have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state???s electoral vote.???
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants ???Where???s Jackie? Where???s Jackie???? The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point ??? within approximately a 10 minute window ??? that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, ???To Jan White - John Kennedy.???
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. ???Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,??? he quips. ???I???m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.??? Pandemonium. ???Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear ?????? he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. ???Oh, Jack,??? she replies ???campaigning is so easy when you???re President.???
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. ???We???re going into nut country today,??? he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that ???It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you???d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there???s nothing anybody can do.???
10:40 a.m. JFK???s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he???s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine???s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
What kind/type of view would Oswald have had of the back of JFK's head if
the bubble top had been on?
Same. The Bubbletop is CLEAR.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
I'm thinking that after JFK is hit and leans to his left towards Jackie
that the angle/view from the back would be obscured.
No.
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Maybe not. Here's a fascinating (to me) photo (below) of JFK in the limo
with the bubble top on. He's sitting on the left. Look at the guy in the
middle seat.
The bubbletop is not clear. There is a metal (I assume) frame that blocks
some of the view.
WTF are you talking about? There is ALWAYS the metal parade bar. I already
said that might block some shots from the FRONT. Maybe you've never seen
all the pieces.

Loading Image...
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zM9XxVJ7Vt4/Vh8brhisyaI/AAAAAAAAQNA/PTTs1NJ9oPQ/s1600/JFKWHP-KN-C24453.jpg
And here he is without it: https://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/kennedy-motorcade.jpg
The differences in the view of him are clear and obvious.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-11 14:19:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
False. There is no evidence of tumbling.
claviger
2018-06-12 13:09:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
False. There is no evidence of tumbling.
Not on the President. It was a clean perforating wound. On the next
victim in the trajectory the wound was longer indicating bullet yaw or
tumbling.

Ballistics
https://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-13 02:45:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
False. There is no evidence of tumbling.
Not on the President. It was a clean perforating wound. On the next
victim in the trajectory the wound was longer indicating bullet yaw or
tumbling.
False. The Connally back wound was not elongated as much as you claim.
Some WC defenders claim that the imaginary bullet wound on the back of
JFK's head was 6x15mm. That is very elongated, but they do not claim that
this bullet was tumbling.
Post by claviger
Ballistics
https://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html
claviger
2018-06-16 21:04:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
False. There is no evidence of tumbling.
Not on the President. It was a clean perforating wound. On the next
victim in the trajectory the wound was longer indicating bullet yaw or
tumbling.
False. The Connally back wound was not elongated as much as you claim.
How elongated did I claim?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Some WC defenders claim that the imaginary bullet wound on the back of
JFK's head was 6x15mm.
That wound was measured at the autopsy by two experienced pathologists.
Post by Anthony Marsh
That is very elongated, but they do not claim that this bullet
was tumbling.

Why would the bullet be tumbling?
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Ballistics
https://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html
Allan G. Johnson
2018-06-12 21:53:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
False. There is no evidence of tumbling.
The bullet hole in the back of JFK's back and the exit wound out his
throat is round. The entrance wound on Connally's back is oblong,
indicating tumbling of the bullet, perfectly understandable. The bullet
hitting Connally had to hit something first to cause it to tumble no
matter where it came from or who fired it, how do you explain that?
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-14 00:55:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
False. There is no evidence of tumbling.
The bullet hole in the back of JFK's back and the exit wound out his
throat is round. The entrance wound on Connally's back is oblong,
indicating tumbling of the bullet, perfectly understandable. The bullet
Wrong. The wound was only 5/8" long and there are other possible causes,
not just tumbling.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
hitting Connally had to hit something first to cause it to tumble no
matter where it came from or who fired it, how do you explain that?
No. Did the bullet you think hit JFK's head have to hit something first
to be oblong, elongated to 6x15mm? I don't mind that you are being
hypocritical. You HAVE to do that to prove that you are a WC defender.
But you have no right to misstate the physical facts.
bigdog
2018-06-14 00:56:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
False. There is no evidence of tumbling.
The bullet hole in the back of JFK's back and the exit wound out his
throat is round. The entrance wound on Connally's back is oblong,
indicating tumbling of the bullet, perfectly understandable. The bullet
hitting Connally had to hit something first to cause it to tumble no
matter where it came from or who fired it, how do you explain that?
In addition, the Haag team demonstrated experimentally that the tumbling
is predictable and repeatable by firing Carcano bullets through ballistic
gel. The bullet remained fairly stable as it passed through the block of
gel but upon exiting, it tumbled creating the same oblong hole in the
storyboard as it did in JBC's back.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-15 13:58:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
Doubtful a FMJ bullet would disintegrate when striking plastic. Deflection would likely be minimal. The best chance would be if Oswald chose not to take the shot. Another of the many what-ifs in this case.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
The day before there were different seating arrangements in Houston and
San Antonio.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a3/fa/23/a3fa23004cb14a6e66664916e3abf11f--rose-kennedy-jackie-kennedy.jpg
https://utsalibrariestopshelf.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/e-0009-140-b-16.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1453720.1379006678!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/kennedys-connally.jpg
https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/53eddd4e480a44f3be2918b3f462afee/l-r-texas-governer-john-connally-president-john-f-kennedy-first-lady-btjn6d.jpg
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/43/70/47/9406961/3/920x920.jpg
Interesting that in one of the cities the Presidential limo was used as
the SS follow up car and an ordinary Lincoln convertible was used for the
President's party.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The key is that the nose of the bullet never hit bone. Before the bullet
hit bone it had tumbled which is why the flattening is at the base and not
the nose.
False. There is no evidence of tumbling.
The bullet hole in the back of JFK's back and the exit wound out his
throat is round. The entrance wound on Connally's back is oblong,
indicating tumbling of the bullet, perfectly understandable. The bullet
hitting Connally had to hit something first to cause it to tumble no
matter where it came from or who fired it, how do you explain that?
In addition, the Haag team demonstrated experimentally that the tumbling
is predictable and repeatable by firing Carcano bullets through ballistic
gel. The bullet remained fairly stable as it passed through the block of
gel but upon exiting, it tumbled creating the same oblong hole in the
storyboard as it did in JBC's back.
More lies. The hole was not that oblong. It was only 5/8" long.
claviger
2018-06-16 21:03:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by bigdog
In addition, the Haag team demonstrated experimentally that the tumbling
is predictable and repeatable by firing Carcano bullets through ballistic
gel. The bullet remained fairly stable as it passed through the block of
gel but upon exiting, it tumbled creating the same oblong hole in the
storyboard as it did in JBC's back.
More lies. The hole was not that oblong. It was only 5/8" long.
oblong - having an elongated shape, as a rectangle or an oval.
Late Middle English: from Latin oblongus ‘longish.’

oval - having a rounded and slightly elongated outline or shape,
like that of an egg.

elliptical - oval, egg-shaped, elliptic, ovate, ovoid, oviform


Dr Shaw:
When Governor Connally was examined it was found that there
was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and
approximately a cn. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right
posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla.
Mr. Specter:
What is axilla, in lay language, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. Shaw:
The arm pit.

Dr Shaw:
The wound of entrance was approximately 3 cm in its longest
diameter and the wound of exit was a ragged wound
approximately 5 cm in its greatest diameter.

Mr. Specter:
What did the wound of entry look like, Doctor?
Dr Gregory:
It appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of a
linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length
with a rounded central portion. Whereas, the wound of exit
was rather larger than this, perhaps an inch and a half across.
claviger
2018-06-10 18:04:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Allan G. Johnson
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
The Carcano 6.5 bullet did exactly what it was designed to do: drill
clean neat round holes in enemy human beings without tumbling. Most
people who can't believe it have little or no experience with rifles.
All the hunters I know have no problem understanding because they've seen
it happen.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-10 22:22:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
That is not what everybody says. We have seen cases of 1 bullet going
through 2 people. There is a lot more to it than that.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
It's also the angles.
And the fact that people have to LIE to defend the SBT. That tips us off
that they know it is not possible. If it were possible then why would
they have to lie about it?
claviger
2018-06-12 02:16:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
That is not what everybody says. We have seen cases of 1 bullet going
through 2 people. There is a lot more to it than that.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
It's also the angles.
What angles? More than one shot from the TSBD or Dal-Tex?
Post by Anthony Marsh
And the fact that people have to LIE to defend the SBT.
What lie? Hunters know that even soft nose rifle bullets can
penetrate all the way through a game animal. Experienced
hunters never take a shot when two animals are standing
side by side. It's obvious you never were a hunter.
Post by Anthony Marsh
That tips us off that they know it is not possible. If it were
possible then why would they have to lie about it?
Not only possible but probable. You know nothing about rifles
and bullets.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-13 20:00:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Allan G. Johnson
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn???t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
??? those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
Some of those IFs are wrong.
If it had rained that morning? Well it did. So what?
Even if it was raining DURING the motorcade, someone could still shoot
through the bubble top.
If Jackie had not been with him maybe Connally would have been sitting
next to him, as he was earlier. That makes a Single Bullet Theory harder
to sell.
It wasn't the size of the crowds which slowed down the motorcade.
He stopped to talk to some children.
Yes, it's fun to blame the driver, but just speeding up at the first
sound does no eliminate the shooters. Maybe makes the kill shot only a
wound.
Post by claviger
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
Was the author there to see how it was done?
Post by claviger
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that ???if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.???
Not exactly what he said.
Post by claviger
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: ???Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,??? he reads, ???have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state???s electoral vote.???
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
Just like at the 2017 inaugural? God shown down on him?
Post by claviger
The crowd chants ???Where???s Jackie? Where???s Jackie???? The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point ??? within approximately a 10 minute window ??? that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, ???To Jan White - John Kennedy.???
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. ???Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,??? he quips. ???I???m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.??? Pandemonium. ???Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear ?????? he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. ???Oh, Jack,??? she replies ???campaigning is so easy when you???re President.???
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. ???We???re going into nut country today,??? he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that ???It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you???d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there???s nothing anybody can do.???
10:40 a.m. JFK???s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he???s the man who fights the bull.
He's a poet and he doesn't even know it.
Post by claviger
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine???s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
Ok, so why not blame it all on Greer? He wasn't shooting, was he?
If it continued to rain throughout the motorcade and the bubble top was
still on it may have deterred a shot from even being taken (50-50) or at
least affected the outcome. Maybe the bullet would have disintegrated or
at least been deflected.
If Jackie hadn't been there and Connally would have been sitting next
to JFK then either someone else would have been sitting in the jump seat
(LBJ, Mrs. Connally, another politician, who knows) you'd still have the
single bullet to deal with. If no one was in the jump seat (would have
been removed or folded down?) then the bullet would have gone on to hit
Kellerman's seat or Kellerman himself, still have to deal with the single
bullet.
To this day I still don't understand why it is so hard for some people
to believe that one bullet could injure two people and not be severely
That is not what everybody says. We have seen cases of 1 bullet going
through 2 people. There is a lot more to it than that.
Post by Allan G. Johnson
damaged. It was a bullet traveling a short distance through the air and
hitting soft tissue at approximately 2,000 ft./sec. It's not like it had
to go through a bullet proof vest, glass, wood and/or metal, then it would
be expected to have damage, if it survived at all without disintegrating.
Looking for loopholes and Unicorns I guess.
It's also the angles.
What angles? More than one shot from the TSBD or Dal-Tex?
Bad angles from rhe Dal-Tex. Some angles don't work for the TSBD.
The sniper's nest lines up well for JFK's and/or Connally's torso wounds.
Post by claviger
Post by Anthony Marsh
And the fact that people have to LIE to defend the SBT.
What lie? Hunters know that even soft nose rifle bullets can
The tumbling bullet. The perfect alignment. Moving JFK's wound up from
the back to the neck. Stuff like that.
Post by claviger
penetrate all the way through a game animal. Experienced
hunters never take a shot when two animals are standing
side by side. It's obvious you never were a hunter.
Obviously you have never hunted deer with a Carcano because you know it is
illegal to use FMJ ammo like that in most places. I know that the Carcano
with almost all standard amo can easily go through two men. That is NEVER
an issue. It can penetrate 48" of Ponderosa Pine and remain intact. That
is not an issue.
Post by claviger
Post by Anthony Marsh
That tips us off that they know it is not possible. If it were
possible then why would they have to lie about it?
They did not lie about the penetraing ability.
Post by claviger
Not only possible but probable. You know nothing about rifles
and bullets.
Childish.
s***@yahoo.com
2017-01-24 01:39:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by claviger
Shapell
John F. Kennedy Signed Dallas Newpaper Morning of Assassination ...
November 22, 1963. A Last Thing Signed: John F. Kennedy Autographs a Dallas
Newspaper on the Morning of His Murder There. Ephemera. 1 page.
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/jfk-signed-dallas-newspaper-morning-of-assassination-november-22-1963
Map - Presidential Motorcade Route
NOVEMBER 22, 1963
A LAST THING SIGNED: JOHN F. KENNEDY AUTOGRAPHS A DALLAS NEWSPAPER ON THE MORNING OF HIS MURDER THERE
EPHEMERA
1 PAGE
SMC 2168
If it had rained that morning; if Jacqueline Kennedy had not been with
him; if the crowds to greet them hadn’t been so deep, slowing down
the limo; or if the driver, hearing shots, had sped up and not down
– those were the variables. Had any one of them been different
then, perhaps, this edition of the November 22nd 1963 Dallas Morning News
might not have been, in all likelihood, the last thing signed by the 35th
President of the United States before he was shot and killed, riding with
his wife in an open limousine in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m., that Friday
noon.
7:10 a.m.: As JFK dresses, in his suite at Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, he
dons a surgical corset to ease his chronic disc disease. He laces it
tightly, then pulls a long elastic bandage over his feet and twists it so
that it forms a figure eight. He then slips it up over both legs. Finally,
it is adjusted over his hips where it supports the bottom of his torso,
while the back brace holds the lower spine rigid.
8:30 a.m.: JFK stands at a window, overlooking a platform where, in a few
minutes he will address a large crowd. He remarks that “if someone
wanted to get you, it wouldn't be very difficult.”
As he scans the leading metropolitan dailies, his instinct that Jacqueline, his glamorous wife, is key to carrying Texas, is confirmed by an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times: “Some Texans, in taking account of the tangled Texas political situation,” he reads, “have begun to think that Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy may turn the balance and win her husband this state’s electoral vote.”
8: 45 a.m.: As JFK ascends the platform to speak, a light rain ceases; the sun comes out. It will stay out all day.
The crowd chants “Where’s Jackie? Where’s Jackie?” The president points toward the hotel suite.
9:00 a.m.: On his way back into the hotel from the speech, JFK stops to chat outside with various well-wishers. He re-enters the hotel, intent on addressing a Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce breakfast in the Grand Ballroom; along the way, however, he detours to speak to Governor Connelly and Senator Yarborough.
It is at this point – within approximately a 10 minute window – that a chambermaid, Jan White, encounters the President and his Secret Service detail in a hallway. She asks him to sign a newspaper she has with her. Kennedy reads her name on her name tag, and inscribes the photograph of himself and Mrs. Kennedy, on the front page of the November 22, 1963, Dallas Morning News, “To Jan White - John Kennedy.”
9:10 a.m.: JFK enters the hotel Grand Ballroom for the Chamber of Commerce breakfast.
9:20 a.m.: The anticipation that Mrs. Kennedy may appear is tremendous. When she does, a few minutes later, 2,000 businessmen and their wives leap to their feet, cheering. The President then addresses the crowd. “Two years ago I introduced myself in Paris as the man who had accompanied Mrs. Kennedy to Paris,” he quips. “I’m getting somewhat the same sensation as I travel around Texas.” Pandemonium. “Nobody wonders what Lyndon and I wear –” he says, grinning.
9:55 a.m.: JFK asks his wife if she is enjoying the trip. “Oh, Jack,” she replies “campaigning is so easy when you’re President.”
10:30 a.m.: Back in the hotel suite, JFK is shown a Dallas newspaper carrying a political advertisement accusing him of treason. “We’re going into nut country today,” he tells an aide. Prowling the room, he remarks to no one in particular, for the second time that morning, that “It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States. All you’d have to do is get up in a high building with a high-powered rifle with a telescopic sight, and there’s nothing anybody can do.”
10:40 a.m. JFK’s motorcade leaves the Texas Hotel for Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth in order to make the short flight to Dallas. There will be 36 people aboard Air Force One - not including the crew.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full;
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull.
11:40 a.m.: Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. A large crowd waits to greet the President; he is pleased to see so large a turnout. He deplanes a few minutes later
11:47 a.m.: The President and Mrs. Kennedy meet the official welcome party, and then work the fence line, shaking hands.
Minutes later they settle into the 1961 armored Lincoln convertible which will take them the nine-and-a-half miles through Dallas to the Trade Mart, where JFK is scheduled to deliver a luncheon address. Because the sun is shining; because the crowds want to see Jacqueline Kennedy, and the President wishes her seen; they will not use one of the limousine’s three tops. The canvas top would have obscured the party from public view; another, of plastic, would have deflected a bullet; the third, made of metal, could have protected the President from gunfire.
Driving the presidential limousine is Secret Service Agent Bill Greer. At fifty-four, he is the oldest man on the White House detail.
The agents and others say the large crowd, in part, caused a slowdown in
the motorcade as people in the crowd surged towards the limo to approach
the Kennedys and the agents had to keep the crowds back.

I can't recall who said it but they described it as sort of snake - the
people on the street - bending towards the limo and then going back as the
limo passed by.

Here's a terrific photo of the crowds and the limo:

Loading Image...

Check out the passengers in the bus.
Ralph Cinque
2017-01-24 04:59:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Jason Burke
2017-01-25 01:51:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Well, that proves conspiracy right there, eh, Raplh?
Anthony Marsh
2017-01-25 15:13:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
We've only discussed it a few hundred times. The other newspaper shows
the zig-zag. What do you gain by resurrecting old myths that were
debunked 40 years ago?
Jason Burke
2017-01-26 01:22:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
We've only discussed it a few hundred times. The other newspaper shows
the zig-zag. What do you gain by resurrecting old myths that were
debunked 40 years ago?
Perhaps Ol' Ralph is running out of spaghetti to throw at the wall.
bigdog
2017-01-27 17:01:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jason Burke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
We've only discussed it a few hundred times. The other newspaper shows
the zig-zag. What do you gain by resurrecting old myths that were
debunked 40 years ago?
Perhaps Ol' Ralph is running out of spaghetti to throw at the wall.
"It's not spaghetti, it's linguini". --- Felix Unger
OHLeeRedux
2017-01-28 02:08:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by Jason Burke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
We've only discussed it a few hundred times. The other newspaper shows
the zig-zag. What do you gain by resurrecting old myths that were
debunked 40 years ago?
Perhaps Ol' Ralph is running out of spaghetti to throw at the wall.
"It's not spaghetti, it's linguini". --- Felix Unger
Now it's garbage. -- Oscar Madison
bigdog
2017-01-29 00:33:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by OHLeeRedux
Post by bigdog
Post by Jason Burke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
We've only discussed it a few hundred times. The other newspaper shows
the zig-zag. What do you gain by resurrecting old myths that were
debunked 40 years ago?
Perhaps Ol' Ralph is running out of spaghetti to throw at the wall.
"It's not spaghetti, it's linguini". --- Felix Unger
Now it's garbage. -- Oscar Madison
As good as the TV series was, the movie was even better. To me it was the
best of the Jack Lemmon/Walter Matthau collaborations.
donald willis
2018-06-05 16:39:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by OHLeeRedux
Post by bigdog
Post by Jason Burke
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
We've only discussed it a few hundred times. The other newspaper shows
the zig-zag. What do you gain by resurrecting old myths that were
debunked 40 years ago?
Perhaps Ol' Ralph is running out of spaghetti to throw at the wall.
"It's not spaghetti, it's linguini". --- Felix Unger
Now it's garbage. -- Oscar Madison
As good as the TV series was, the movie was even better. To me it was the
best of the Jack Lemmon/Walter Matthau collaborations.
Not difficult
Ralph Cinque
2017-01-26 02:53:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
There were only two newspapers in Dallas: the Morning News and the Times
Herald. So, the Morning News got it wrong. That's significant because it's
half.

The theory is that Oswald was shown the opportunity he had to kill Kennedy
by reading the newspaper, presumably during his lunch break at the TSBD.
One, of course, would have to be completely insane, to be living a normal
life, doing one's workaday job, and then be triggered to kill the
President of the United States just by seeing a motorcade route in the
paper.

In the movie The Manchurian Candidate, Raymond Shaw would get triggered to
kill if he saw a Queen of Diamonds. But, Oswald wasn't programmed in any
way by anyone. So, for him to have the self-generated thought, "I think
I'll kill Kennedy" just from seeing the motorcade route, as a mental
departure from what he was actually doing, which was working a warehouse
job to support himself and get his family back under his roof, which was
his highest priority, is crazy beyond description. So, the degree of
insanity entailed in the behavior that they attribute to him is at the
extreme end of the scale- it is off the scale.

But, the fact is that they have no evidence for it. There is no evidence
that Oswald knew anything about the motorcade route. On the morning of the
assassination, he asked James Jarman why people were gathering on the
sidewalk outside. He honestly did not know. But, neither did Jarman until
somebody told him. And neither did Frazier until he got to work that day.
So, it is not surprising or unusual that Oswald did not know, and there is
solid evidence that he didn't. Therefore, the whole
"he-saw-the-route-in-the-paper" claim is a totally unfounded, fabricated
myth based on nothing. The presumption of an intelligent person is that
he didn't see it, and he didn't know anything about it.
Anthony Marsh
2017-01-26 21:23:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ralph Cinque
There were only two newspapers in Dallas: the Morning News and the Times
Herald. So, the Morning News got it wrong. That's significant because it's
half.
The theory is that Oswald was shown the opportunity he had to kill Kennedy
by reading the newspaper, presumably during his lunch break at the TSBD.
One, of course, would have to be completely insane, to be living a normal
life, doing one's workaday job, and then be triggered to kill the
President of the United States just by seeing a motorcade route in the
paper.
Maybe you're not old enough to remember, but I have pointed out before
that the conspirators did not need the limo to drive right in front of the
TSBD to shoot Kennedy. They could hit him on Main if the limo did not turn
onto Houston and then onto Elm.

Espcially with a shooter from the front.
Post by Ralph Cinque
In the movie The Manchurian Candidate, Raymond Shaw would get triggered to
kill if he saw a Queen of Diamonds. But, Oswald wasn't programmed in any
way by anyone. So, for him to have the self-generated thought, "I think
I'll kill Kennedy" just from seeing the motorcade route, as a mental
departure from what he was actually doing, which was working a warehouse
job to support himself and get his family back under his roof, which was
his highest priority, is crazy beyond description. So, the degree of
insanity entailed in the behavior that they attribute to him is at the
extreme end of the scale- it is off the scale.
I don't think Oswald was a shooter, but you can't claim he was and then
say he didn't plan it until he saw the parade route. How wimpy!
Post by Ralph Cinque
But, the fact is that they have no evidence for it. There is no evidence
that Oswald knew anything about the motorcade route. On the morning of the
assassination, he asked James Jarman why people were gathering on the
sidewalk outside. He honestly did not know. But, neither did Jarman until
somebody told him. And neither did Frazier until he got to work that day.
So, it is not surprising or unusual that Oswald did not know, and there is
solid evidence that he didn't. Therefore, the whole
"he-saw-the-route-in-the-paper" claim is a totally unfounded, fabricated
myth based on nothing. The presumption of an intelligent person is that
he didn't see it, and he didn't know anything about it.
e***@gmail.com
2018-06-04 19:44:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-06-04 23:49:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
So, how did all of Oswald's co-workers know that the route was going to go
right in front of their building?

And all of those other spectators standing on Elm Street?

Where - i.e., from what source? - did they learn about the route?
Jason Burke
2018-06-05 20:47:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
So, how did all of Oswald's co-workers know that the route was going to go
right in front of their building?
And all of those other spectators standing on Elm Street?
Where - i.e., from what source? - did they learn about the route?
Oh! Oh! I know! A book by a CT clown!
What do I win?
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-08 00:57:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jason Burke
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter.  None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing.  If Oswald truly acted
alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
So, how did all of Oswald's co-workers know that the route was going to go
right in front of their building?
And all of those other spectators standing on Elm Street?
Where - i.e., from what source? - did they learn about the route?
Oh! Oh! I know! A book by a CT clown!
What do I win?
A book by a CT clown!

Just post your real name and real address.
Steve M. Galbraith
2018-06-05 22:13:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
So, how did all of Oswald's co-workers know that the route was going to go
right in front of their building?
And all of those other spectators standing on Elm Street?
Where - i.e., from what source? - did they learn about the route?
By "all" I am referring to the ones who went outside to watch the
motorcade or stayed inside and watched it from there.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-08 00:28:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
So, how did all of Oswald's co-workers know that the route was going to go
right in front of their building?
And all of those other spectators standing on Elm Street?
Where - i.e., from what source? - did they learn about the route?
By "all" I am referring to the ones who went outside to watch the
motorcade or stayed inside and watched it from there.
Why are you leaving out all the other spectators who were in Dealey
Plaza? Selection bias?
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-06 14:54:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve M. Galbraith
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
So, how did all of Oswald's co-workers know that the route was going to go
right in front of their building?
And all of those other spectators standing on Elm Street?
Where - i.e., from what source? - did they learn about the route?
I wonder if any people back then listened to the radio or watched TV?
bigdog
2018-06-04 23:50:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
This is a factoid. The DMN described the route in detail including the jog
from Main St. to Elm St. on Houston which brought the motorcade right in
front of the TSBD and within easy range of Oswald's rifle. The map
included with the article was of such low resolution it didn't include
every detail of the route.

Not only did Oswald know that the motorcade was coming down Elm St., so
did all the spectators who lined up along that street. How do you suppose
they knew about the motorcade coming down Elm St.
Jason Burke
2018-06-05 20:46:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
This is a factoid. The DMN described the route in detail including the jog
from Main St. to Elm St. on Houston which brought the motorcade right in
front of the TSBD and within easy range of Oswald's rifle. The map
included with the article was of such low resolution it didn't include
every detail of the route.
Not only did Oswald know that the motorcade was coming down Elm St., so
did all the spectators who lined up along that street. How do you suppose
they knew about the motorcade coming down Elm St.
Sometimes the lack of thinking ability of the CT crowd is just not
conceivable.
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-08 00:57:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jason Burke
Post by bigdog
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter.  None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing.  If Oswald truly acted
alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
This is a factoid. The DMN described the route in detail including the jog
from Main St. to Elm St. on Houston which brought the motorcade right in
front of the TSBD and within easy range of Oswald's rifle. The map
included with the article was of such low resolution it didn't include
every detail of the route.
Not only did Oswald know that the motorcade was coming down Elm St., so
did all the spectators who lined up along that street. How do you suppose
they knew about the motorcade coming down Elm St.
Sometimes the lack of thinking ability of the CT crowd is just not
conceivable.
Why don't you claim it is deliberate?
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-06 14:54:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by bigdog
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
This is a factoid. The DMN described the route in detail including the jog
Sure, but you can't just ASSuME the Oswald had to read the correct
newspaper. Maybe COULD have.
But again it doesn't matter if he was not the shooter.
You always ASSuME things instead of proving them.
Post by bigdog
from Main St. to Elm St. on Houston which brought the motorcade right in
front of the TSBD and within easy range of Oswald's rifle. The map
included with the article was of such low resolution it didn't include
every detail of the route.
Are you saying that Oswald could not have hit anyone in the limo if it
had continued down Main Street? Has anyone ever tested that idea?
Post by bigdog
Not only did Oswald know that the motorcade was coming down Elm St., so
did all the spectators who lined up along that street. How do you suppose
they knew about the motorcade coming down Elm St.
Word of mouth? Zapruder's secretary told him.
How come most people lined up on Main and Houston and only a few on Elm?
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-05 16:37:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ralph Cinque
Did you notice that the map of the motorcade route skipped the zig-zag to
Elm?
Yes and this is why Lee Oswald could not have been the shooter. None of
the posted parade routes included the limo driving in front of the TSBD.
In fact, the parade route kept changing. If Oswald truly acted alone, he
would have been completely confused as to where to go.
One of the newspapers DID show the turn onto Elm Street.

Loading Image...

But thanks for bring this Zombie thread back.
e***@gmail.com
2018-06-04 19:43:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi. I'm interested in the third addition of the Dallas Morning News dated
November 22, 1963. This edition does NOT have the parade route but rather
a weather report where the parade route would later be placed.

If anyone knows where I can buy one of these, please let me know.

Rich
Anthony Marsh
2018-06-05 16:37:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by e***@gmail.com
Hi. I'm interested in the third addition of the Dallas Morning News dated
November 22, 1963. This edition does NOT have the parade route but rather
a weather report where the parade route would later be placed.
If anyone knows where I can buy one of these, please let me know.
Rich
The Collector's Archives might have it, but the Dallas Morning News
might have it on its own Web site. I don't know many researchers who
have all of the original newspapers. Sometimes they would copy them into
a little booklet.
I have one called The Assassination Story

On November 16th it said:

JFK Motorcade Seems Unlikely
Loading...